Wisp Review/Early feedback

[VVXRFRXME]

Theory Crafting in simulacrum and cheese strat, that's it, for the post i don't talk a lot its just bc wisp was themed on  ghost/will o wisp, and i love those spooky things, so i find interesting to  interact with others

[hy_im_death]

I don't see the problem people have with those channeled abilities, it's an ability type like any other. Don't use it if you don't like it, as simple as that. Don't tear down concepts others would really enjoy, just because you don't like it-- There isn't only one playstyle, keep that in mind--

I see a lot of complaining about her 1st being stationary, can we just like summon creatures from her wisp dimension that follows you/teammates or stay put when you decide?

I also see a lot of hate for the rest of her kit. First, WE HAVEN'T TRIED HER YET, so we basically have no information to build a proper opinion and/or provide proper feedback; Second, it's only hate for hate, no real solutions are proposed.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, hy_im_death said:

I don't see the problem people have with those channeled abilities, it's an ability type like any other. Don't use it if you don't like it, as simple as that.

Okay, allow me to respectfully explain in a short few points of summary;

First, according to the preview and later tweets, when you use her 4, that's it, you're stuck using her 4 until you turn it off. This is pretty counter to the way that other frames and the rest of the game functions, disallowing the use of her other abilities, her mobility, her passive invisibility, weapons and Operator mode. It may even disable gear.

Second, according to the preview and the later tweets, this does not have any kind of support from her other abilities. When other frames, like Mesa and Revenant, use these kinds of abilities, they have things to support them, such as damage mitigation and crowd control that lasts for around 40 seconds or so in Mesa's case, or in Revenant's case a literal Invulnerability function and a movement skill that also restores health. Wisp currently has none of those functions, and without them the ability will (we know this from people experimenting with using Peacemaker after her 2 and 3 run out) leave her very much a target for the dozens of enemies that spawn at any given time. Basically, damage abilities are fine, as long as they're supported, and Wisp's is not.

Third, there are dozens of better functions in game than slapping on another drain ability that does direct damage. There have been a dozen suggestions in this thread alone. You'll have to excuse us for being shown something and immediately noting the flaws inherent in the concept and coming up with something better.

And yes, we did come up with better things, see below.

2 hours ago, hy_im_death said:

I see a lot of complaining about her 1st being stationary, can we just like summon creatures from her wisp dimension that follows you/teammates or stay put when you decide?

The stationary part of it is kind of debatable. Stationary abilities can work in Warframe because there are a lot (a lot) of game modes that involve staying in one area for at least a few minutes at a time. Such as Defense, Mobile Defense, Interception, Excavation, Defection, Infested Salvage and even the longer-run Survivals.

What's not desirable is how compartmentalised it is and the previewed method of then having to go to each different point to get the different buffs. You have to cast it three times just to get the full effects, and as we saw on the stream, individually those effects aren't particularly strong or desirable. This could be because of the lack of modding, but again, we can only judge based on what we've seen.

As a side note, from experience with the game and with Forum feedback, many players will be unhappy with there being a Speed Boost that they pick up, because many, many threads are started over time complaining about Volt's Speed boost and how they don't care that it's a buff, they want to be in control of how fast they're moving without other frames imposing that on them. So while the speed boost that Wisp currently grants is a pick-up that needs collecting, DE actually tried that with Volt's speed for a while, and players hated that too because Volt would just leave them where allies would have to pick them up anyway, such as doorways and narrow corridors.

Aside from that, unless the Health boost she offers is affected by modding significantly, it doesn't actually provide any mitigation of damage, so it's kind of just a layer of tissue paper on most frames, including herself. Then there's the CC aura, which is just a radial Electrical proc, which could be very strong as a melee function (Condition Overload could rejoice) or it could be such low range that it doesn't warrant using it. We don't know, but DE have not given us a lot of confidence...

2 hours ago, hy_im_death said:

I also see a lot of hate for the rest of her kit. First, WE HAVEN'T TRIED HER YET,

No, we haven't, but we've had a genuine demonstration. This is enough to form opinions and theorise on potential and on interactions. That's why this Forum Sanctioned Megathread was created, so that there's a convenient place for us to put our opinions and feedback so the Devs, who are looking for feedback on their newly previewed and demonstrated Warframe that's still in development, can read through it.

Whether they do or not, we can't tell, but that's the reason that the Moderators made it a Megathread.

On top of that, 'the rest of her kit' is kind of broad. Her two has actually been generally well received. Players think that the primary effect of it (the distraction) could be too weak to be worth using, and that's a fair opinion. But the secondary effect, which is the teleport with instant blind on enemies and functional invulnerability seconds (as tweeted by DEPablo) could be a function that seriously allows her to scale if it's affected by Duration, and that's actually been received quite well.

Meanwhile her proposed 3 quite rightly has been received negatively because DE has made the key blunder of not showing us if the ability has any kind of function when there are no instances of her 1 in use or in range. And, much like Vauban's traps, there is literally no way (not as shown) to guarantee that enemies will be in position to be hit with the ability effects.

Does the ability actually do anything if you press the button without having cast her 1 first? We don't know. But more than that, they have given her a 4th ability that deals direct damage, one that apparently scales up damage based on how much you hit the same enemy with it. Why would we even use the finicky, compartmentalised setup of her 1 and 3 combo when we can simply press 4 and burn them all down?

Except, as mentioned before, her 4 is not a function that's very well thought out for this frame when taken in context of the rest of her kit. So an effort needs to be made by DE, based on these flaws that we've seen, to improve the design further.

2 hours ago, hy_im_death said:

Second, it's only hate for hate, no real solutions are proposed.

And this is the part I meant earlier when I said 'see below'.

I have personally and definitively provided solutions and feedback on both this page and several pages of the thread ago, in full detail, with multiple solutions that have both a grounding in the proposed 'theme' and in actual game play mechanics. I have debated and discussed these proposals with other players since, with others also contributing their own ideas to the table and debating the usefulness of them overall.

I understand that the thread is over 30 pages long, and my feedback exists only from page 33 onwards, but that's because I took the time to read through 32 pages to ensure that what I wanted to say wasn't already explained or proposed first. Since you're replying in this manner, you haven't done that. Rather rude, I would think.

But please feel free to pop back to page 33, my comment starts with an amusing reference to Thor Ragnarok and a gif of Loki. Have fun and tell me what you think.

Until then, I'll just make sure we keep people coming in and bumping the thread to keep it on the front page in case DE really is reading.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Birdframe_Prime

[Z-gestalt]

On 2019-04-13 at 12:26 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

So I propose 'Lost Souls'

That idea is great, I like your opinion about the wisp, maybe the wisp and teammates can be invisible（not  general invisibility, this needs to be discussed） when they inside the fog .

[Shelusine]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Basically, damage abilities are fine, as long as they're supported, and Wisp's is not.

So, I didn't see the tweets but if her other abilities stay when they are deployed I do think her 4th ability is indeed supported by the buffs and CC they create.

[Z-gestalt]

On 2019-04-13 at 12:26 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

So I propose 'Lost Souls', where you press 4 to coat a large area of ground in 'fog' (the kind of fog that travellers get lost in and see Wisps), similar to Oberon's Hallowed Ground in height so it doesn't actually interfere with sight for us. Enemies on it will be stunned, whether they are within the cast range or pass into it, stunned enemies will be in an Unaware state while within Lost Souls until directly attacked or until an Objective is in direct line of sight. Enemies within Lost Souls take bonus damage from all sources, and double damage from her 3. Unaware enemies within Lost Souls will be drawn to any Grove that is placed within the range.

what about reduce the maximum HP and damage  of enemy units gradually ？
after a 10,000HP enemy unit stays in the fog for 10 seconds, the maximum HP becomes only 3000 , and the damage will be lower correspondingly .
this can improve the team's survivability.

[Z-gestalt]

2 hours ago, ENparadox said:

after a 10,000HP enemy unit stays in the fog for 10 seconds, the maximum HP becomes only 3000 , and the damage will be lower correspondingly .

Those who fall into the fog will become confused and weak, and then die in the flash and illusion.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Shelusine said:

So, I didn't see the tweets but if her other abilities stay when they are deployed I do think her 4th ability is indeed supported by the buffs and CC they create.

The buffs may stay. But here's a questions I have to ask; without damage mitigation, what good is a few hundred points of Health to a crowd of enemies? Even if that Health boost she's giving herself and allies is modded incredibly high, even double health is still only a second or so if you're taking damage from high level enemies. What I mean by 'not supported' is that other frames that have abilities they cast and use in a similar fashion have 95% Damage reduction or literal temporary Invulnerability to stay alive while using it, plus they either have CC or mobility to keep themselves alive on top.

Without damage mitigation, such as her passive Invisibility (really good passive, actually, I'm in support of that), damage reduction, or wide area CC that's completely reliable, how is she going to stay alive long enough to bring that damage to effect? And the only answer is 'it's rocket tag', where you kill them or they kill you first, and since there's more of them than there are of you, guess which is more likely?

So, from what DE showed us with that preview... we don't actually have that support, see? ^^

On to my other conversation;

4 hours ago, ENparadox said:

That idea is great, I like your opinion about the wisp, maybe the wisp and teammates can be invisible（not  general invisibility, this needs to be discussed） when they inside the fog .

That's kind of the limitation here. Something that we don't want to create is another situation that players can exploit like Ivara's Noise Arrow, so if the ability is cast on its own, then the Stun is the only form of CC you will get, and everyone will have to just try and cope. But if a Grove is placed in the area, then you won't need to be invisible, enemies will stop shooting and be drawn to it like Djinn's Fatal Attraction (a very good form of CC, if you haven't tried running with Djinn yet, it's actually more useful than you'd think).

So you bypass the need for direct, conditional buffs to allies by instead debuffing the enemies.

2 hours ago, ENparadox said:

what about reduce the maximum HP and damage  of enemy units gradually ？
after a 10,000HP enemy unit stays in the fog for 10 seconds, the maximum HP becomes only 3000 , and the damage will be lower correspondingly .
this can improve the team's survivability.

Here I have to ask 'why?'

The reason I ask is that our weapons can easily deal 10,000 damage, if not all at once, then over a very short space of time. And level 160-165 enemies often have health far, far higher than that (I know that a level 100 Heavy Gunner has an effective health, thanks to Armour damage reduction, of over a million...) and we still kill them very, very quickly when we have the right setup.

But killing enemies faster is still part of the ability I proposed; enemies affected by it take bonus damage from every source. So instead of an arbitrary reduction in health on enemies, we can exploit the power of our existing weapons, the modding system and the more powerful sources of DPS in the game (abilities) to be dealing massive potential damage.

Basically, the 'trap' that Wisp is leading her enemies into in this particular case... is her team ^^ Although, thanks to the interaction it can have with her 1 and 3 in the proposal, that's not the only trap she can lead enemies into.

[hy_im_death]

Thank you for the time you took to explain this to me, I now understand properly the issues at hand.

Personally, I have waited a long time ro see an “energy beam” type ability and I would be sad to see that removed from the game. 

And I didn’t mean to be rude in any way, I’m sorry for that

[Rankii]

22 minutes ago, hy_im_death said:

Thank you for the time you took to explain this to me, I now understand properly the issues at hand.

Personally, I have waited a long time ro see an “energy beam” type ability and I would be sad to see that removed from the game. 

And I didn’t mean to be rude in any way, I’m sorry for that

Honestly, like a lot of people said, it'd be a great skill on Emebr. Combine that with bringing back Tank Ember and you go from the wide-range heating lamp to a beefy pinpoint blowtorch....but I don't think they'll ever touch Ember. Poor girl can't even get her actual deluxe skin, it's like she's doomed.

[hy_im_death]

 

54 minutes ago, Rankii said:

Honestly, like a lot of people said, it'd be a great skill on Emebr. Combine that with bringing back Tank Ember and you go from the wide-range heating lamp to a beefy pinpoint blowtorch....but I don't think they'll ever touch Ember. Poor girl can't even get her actual deluxe skin, it's like she's doomed.

I agree.

Let's make Ember great again!

[Shelusine]

14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The buffs may stay. But here's a questions I have to ask; without damage mitigation, what good is a few hundred points of Health to a crowd of enemies?

It depends on her base armor but I am a lot more interested in the CC. I mean, enemies that can't hit you to begin with are not a threat. If her CC potential is high enough there shouldn't be an issue. 

 

14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

if you're taking damage from high level enemies.

She'd have to take damage from 1h+ survival for that. While I am all for specs that helps for long runs, it'd be hard to make an argument about it

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Shelusine said:

It depends on her base armor but I am a lot more interested in the CC. I mean, enemies that can't hit you to begin with are not a threat. If her CC potential is high enough there shouldn't be an issue. 

From what we saw it was a low range aura that zapped individual enemies, sort of like a worse version of Shooting Gallery. That's not a lot of potential that we've actually been shown.

But for context, you're talking to a player that regularly took a Silence Banshee to T4 during the crit-melee scaling days and later to Mot, on both where 3x damage is the norm. I can use stun CC and stun CC only in order to survive at points where a lot of players fall down. It functions, I agree with that, even if it's slightly low range (I typically run my Banshee with Neutral range or less to get the correct stun point to really use the Melee options I enjoyed most. (As a note, I did try out Naramon's invisibility, but I used that on frames that didn't have the kind of reliable way to place enemies into the Unaware state that Banshee could.)

Given that I'm aware of how good even the most basic of stun CCs can be, I'll be completely honest with you on this one: Unless you're free to move and apply that CC and use inbuilt damage mitigation such as rolling and dodging behind cover (or Wisp's proposed Invisibility while jumping, which I'm really looking forward to) it's useless.

Wisp, as she is, could get by with literally any one of her options. She could survive with her Aura CC, her distraction 2 or her Invisibility passive if she used normal Warframe mobility options in order to exploit those. While one would be enough, having all three of those to exploit with Warframe's mobility is a win. It's where you immediately remove two of those and remove Warframe mobility by fixing her into the animation we saw. That's where I take issue.

That's where you need damage mitigation in excess of what a stun aura can do. That's where you're going to get every single enemy around you firing and not have enough time to hose each enemy down before you've taken that damage.

See where I'm coming from on this? The frame as a whole has enough survivability. When you isolate it by giving it a fixed animation 4th ability, it does not.

10 hours ago, Shelusine said:

She'd have to take damage from 1h+ survival for that. While I am all for specs that helps for long runs, it'd be hard to make an argument about it

Actually no. Enemies are lethal to frames that don't have mitigation at surprisingly easy-to-access points. Snipers, shotgun enemies, techs and gunners, sapping orbs, flame throwers and napalm shots, even just combined fire. If you're in a situation where none of your mitigation works, you can die from just a Corrupted Crewman spawning in on you from an Axi Fissure and taking two shots. Just from an Axi Fissure mission. Those aren't considered high level unless you haven't gone above the Star Chart...

I say 'high level', and it's true. A level 80-100 enemy is (by the developers, not by most players) considered high level, and you can find those daily. But you don't need that.

A level 50 Scorch is lethal in seconds, even if you're running a frame with base tanky stats, due to how particle damage works. It will be unless you use mitigation functions like your Abilities or external sources of mitigation such as gear, Arcanes, Focus (and Focus Arcanes) and so on.

And again, it's easy not to take lethal damage in Warframe, as long as you have access to the functions that mitigate it. If you're put in a state where you can't access those? That's when you die very quickly and very easily.

[Shelusine]

8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That's not a lot of potential that we've actually been shown.

I would agree with that but we honestly don't know the exact mechanic. No offense to Reb but she isn't the best at showing the "potential" of frames as such it's not like we can clearly say that the ability is indeed not supported because on paper she does have access to CC. That being said I surely am not trying to go against your intent which I guess is to warn DE.

 

13 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you're in a situation where none of your mitigation works, you can die from just a Corrupted Crewman spawning in on you from an Axi Fissure

"You can" Yes. The way you make that happen is very specific though... Taking Revenant example It means pressing the ability in situations that are uncalled for while not being geared for it to begin with. Point being that, realistically, as long as you know when to use such ability you are very unlikely to die and if you do it has more chances to be because of another mistake. And that's assuming that she is a very squishy frame to begin with. Do we even have access to her stats yet ? Because if her stats are close to even a frame like Garuda she already just can't die even at sortie level. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, Shelusine said:

Point being that, realistically, as long as you know when to use such ability you are very unlikely to die and if you do it has more chances to be because of another mistake. And that's assuming that she is a very squishy frame to begin with. Do we even have access to her stats yet ? Because if her stats are close to even a frame like Garuda she already just can't die even at sortie level.

You're assuming a lot here. Especially the concept that Garuda can't die at Sortie... I mean, yes, she has 300 armour and you're modding her for health and armour, but if you aren't moving, if you aren't using Dread Mirror, if you aren't mitigating damage using the functions that Garuda has like her health regen, she dies. Yes she does, and that's the point I'm making. (Also, yeah, Wisp's 'in progress' stats were there on the first reveal when Reb selected her, she has literally half the armour of Garuda, which is still pretty high for any of the caster frames at 150. That's enough to put her above 21 other base frames and above 13 Primes.)

But here's a fun point; since Garuda has Dread Mirror and Blood Altar (damage mitigation and health regen) on top of her high base stats, even if she had an animation based 4, that would be enough to support it. 

Wisp's CC is okay, as I said, but if she's floating around in a fixed animation, how does she effectively use it? 

Wisp's mitigation is okay, she turns invisible when she jumps, that's amazing for getting enemies to not shoot at you. But when she's floating around in a fixed animation, she can't jump. Even the tweets from Pablo say she can't.

Wisp's distraction is okay, she can literally decoy enemies away and then use a teleport to blind and make herself invincible for some time. She can't use it while in her 4, also confirmed.

Saying 'knowing when to use the ability' does not make the ability good. I'm a Zephyr player. I know when to use Tailwind. That does not make Tailwind a good ability. (I typed out an entire rant about the other abilities that are bad in Warframe that players can still use. But it went on as long as the rest of this comment, so I've cut it for time.)

A player can compensate for bad abilities and that's okay. But it still doesn't make the ability good.

When a frame is in development, and has been previewed to us the way Wisp has, this is the perfect time to take the abilities we can see as bad ideas and suggest good ones, better ones at least.

We should not need to look at an upcoming Warframe that's still being tweaked and has ample room for greatness and say 'oh well, I guess we'll have to work around that function, or ignore it completely so that we can use all the other functions'. We should be getting that function fixed, improved, or changed for another one that does work with the rest of her kit, that doesn't deny her options and doesn't present these problems that we have to work around like that.

Abilities do need limits, drawbacks, but they don't need logistical flaws that players need to compensate for by strategically not using the ability at all.

[Shelusine]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Especially the concept that Garuda can't die at Sortie... I mean, yes, she has 300 armour and you're modding her for health and armour, but if you aren't moving, if you aren't using Dread Mirror, if you aren't mitigating damage using the functions that Garuda has like her health regen, she dies. 

Huh... ?

Modding Garuda for health... no, no one with a moderate amount of knowledge about the frame would mod her that way for normal gameplay. Armour and QT yes. Also, no. if you are not moving you die but that's the kind of not moving that doesn't apply to wisp. So technically, no, you don't die with garuda even without using the mirror, played her enough to know that.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But here's a fun point; since Garuda has Dread Mirror and Blood Altar (damage mitigation and health regen) on top of her high base stats, even if she had an animation based 4, that would be enough to support it. 

She has something kinda worse than that and I agree with the shield but honestly her altar is useless and that's part of what I'd like to avoid with wisp. An unnecessary amount of defensive abilities traded off for less damage. Also her 4th ability is a lot worse than the speed at which wisp was moving on the stream. They don't seem to have similar use.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Wisp's CC is okay, as I said, but if she's floating around in a fixed animation, how does she effectively use it? 

Arent they leave in CCs ? Not entirely sure about the mechanic but it seems like you can pick them up ? Again, "To my knowledge" maybe the tweet has Infos that I don't have.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Saying 'knowing when to use the ability' does not make the ability good.

It's meant to give it a purpose and a context. You are not supposed to press 4 at any moment. It simply means that it's not just about theoretically standing still in a mission, it's about using it in context that make sense of the ability. Taking Garuda as example I  am not going to use her ball if I don't have something else to jump on the next second. Or I wont throw it too far if I am surrounded because the delay would kill me. I don't want to make too many theory crafting but I assume that you'd want to use that ability from a certain distance in corridors which would then seem safe to me depending on how her pick ups work.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When a frame is in development, and has been previewed to us the way Wisp has, this is the perfect time to take the abilities we can see as bad ideas and suggest good ones, better ones at least.

I am pretty sure I did support that. What I do "disagree" with is that her 4th ability might be supported since we don't know much about her CCs. 

 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

All fair points, although I don't agree with them.

6 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Also, no. if you are not moving you die but that's the kind of not moving that doesn't apply to wisp.

It does, because there are literally no movement options that don't have her gliding around at a jogging pace, something that will get any frame killed without some form of damage mitigation.

6 hours ago, Shelusine said:

An unnecessary amount of defensive abilities traded off for less damage.

You see, though, damage on its own just doesn't do much. Some of the best abilities for damage in the game don't work on anything like the system Wisp is being previewed with. 

Look at the frames that do deal the most damage, they have radial functions, not aimed, they have high sustained damage over time based on hitting multiple enemies or just over time, not scaling per enemy as they've stated this one does, and they all exploit mechanical functions such as enemies contributing to a multiplied damage return or external secondary effects building their result.

Octavia's Mallet, Saryn's Spores, Mesa's Peacemaker, Mag's Magnetise, they're all dealing top damage based on a mechanical function that, without input, would not do very much at all or fizzle out. The input from enemies, or from further ability use, scales that damage higher and higher, until people complain about them being too powerful on the Forums (weird people...)

And every single one of those allows for the players to either have a long-running buff or an effect they can activate externally that is capable of keeping them alive for the duration.

Again, we've only seen one ability in her kit that's even slightly capable of doing that while her 4 is active:

7 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Arent they leave in CCs ? Not entirely sure about the mechanic but it seems like you can pick them up ? Again, "To my knowledge" maybe the tweet has Infos that I don't have.

And that's kind of the point. With her 2 disabled while she's using her 4, all she has is that CC aura, which is (as previewed) only a short range stun CC. She can go pick it up again, but at what point is it going to be longer range than the death laser, or effective at keeping her alive while she uses the laser? It's why I brought up Banshee. If you set her CC too high it doesn't work, or too low either, because you're not stunning enemies at the point where you can effectively deal damage to them. The same problem will exist for Wisp, because we saw how it currently works, and without Warframe movement, sprinting, dodging, bullet jumping, that kind of stun isn't at all easy to apply.

That's what I meant by 'how can you use it effectively', you need to actually be able to run in and out, close distances and so on to be able to use that stun CC.

So it pretty much doesn't matter that you can leave them running and pick them up again, the CC is just not effective in the form we've seen it specifically when she's in that animation mode. That's where I'm heading here.

And speaking of heading:

7 hours ago, Shelusine said:

It's meant to give it a purpose and a context. You are not supposed to press 4 at any moment.

No, but again, the key is that pressing 4 should not remove options unless the compensation for that is high enough, and those options it removes definitely shouldn't be the things that allow you to survive a risk/reward encounter.

Getting high damage for a risk is exactly the kind of thing that Mesa runs on, except that she has the option to mitigate that risk. As do the other frames with fixed animations like this. 

My whole point is that from what we've seen... what's there isn't enough even with theory crafting to suggest great options for them. We've seen these same mechanics before in different forms, we aren't working in a vacuum.

6 hours ago, Shelusine said:

What I do "disagree" with is that her 4th ability might be supported since we don't know much about her CCs

And see, this is pretty much exactly it, we don't know anything more about her abilities. Only what we've seen.

So, based on the fact that we haven't seen any more of them, what we've got... just isn't enough.

And on that, I think I'll stop the ranting for a bit ^^

[Shelusine]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It does, because there are literally no movement options that don't have her gliding around at a jogging pace, something that will get any frame killed without some form of damage mitigation.

I don't see it as jogging pace, she's clearly much faster than that to me. In fact she was equally as fast as her running speed in some phases which would indeed be enough to moderately dodge. It's absolutely not a standing still animation and I am pretty sure it is affected by sprinting speed. (Not that I'd mod for it)

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

the best abilities for damage in the game don't work on anything like the system Wisp is being previewed with. 

You are correct but no other frame is so that's a bit hard to judge. Taking Khora as an example she can just rush through sorties and be top damage by just pressing 1 which while it has an impact AoE mechanic, is not a radial ability and doesn't need any support to do what it does.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

She can go pick it up again, but at what point is it going to be longer range than the death laser, or effective at keeping her alive while she uses the laser?

We don't know ? 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, but again, the key is that pressing 4 should not remove options unless the compensation for that is high enough, and those options it removes definitely shouldn't be the things that allow you to survive a risk/reward encounter.

I am not entirely sure about that, the more we discuss the more the pick up aspect seems to correlate with the ability. Somehow it seems like the trade might be fair, it really depends on its value. 

But I mean yes. If it's not high enough you are correct but we just don't know so it's not like there's a point to argue about that between us.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And on that, I think I'll stop the ranting for a bit ^^

We agree.

[Ikusias]

At the moment I'm quite duoubtfull that wisp won't be another wreck of a frame honetly.

I like her design but all her powers make 0 sense on her and feel it's an error basing her on stationary pickups or making her powers dependant on long setups, when a Mesa or worse a Saryn just waltz trough the map obliterating everything.

Lastly her ultimate is something that nearly caused me rabies: Ember has been brutalized multiple times and still lacks survivability and decent powers and they go giving a freaking solar flare to a ghost temed frame?! WTFF?!

So far her kit seems a mess and completely unrelated to her apparent theme, I'd like to avoid another Khora or Revenant crapshow - botrh frames massively suffer from hapazard kit choices that are completely thematically unrelated to what was previewed - for the worse

[VVXRFRXME]

khora was a mess design but ended really good with her augment idk who's behind her augment but wp she is "GOOD" in All content, even without Ability Strengh, 

 

Il y a 21 heures, Ikusias a dit :

At the moment I'm quite duoubtfull that wisp won't be another wreck of a frame honetly.

I like her design but all her powers make 0 sense on her and feel it's an error basing her on stationary pickups or making her powers dependant on long setups, when a Mesa or worse a Saryn just waltz trough the map obliterating everything.

Lastly her ultimate is something that nearly caused me rabies: Ember has been brutalized multiple times and still lacks survivability and decent powers and they go giving a freaking solar flare to a ghost temed frame?! WTFF?!

So far her kit seems a mess and completely unrelated to her apparent theme, I'd like to avoid another Khora or Revenant crapshow - botrh frames massively suffer from hapazard kit choices that are completely thematically unrelated to what was previewed - for the worse

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Hex-Maniac

[PsiWarp]

If Sol is to be kept as a aimed beam of growing damage, then it should not limit Wisp to the ground and hinder her mobility/passive that she relies on for surviving.

• Allow her to use her full mobility including parkour, but doing those maneuvers (except rolling since they might add a custom dash like Hildryn's) would temporarily close the portal to the sun and reopen it once she finishes. Can jump to use her passive invisibility.
• Allow her to use 2 and 3 while channeling Sol. If using 2, her doppelganger holds open the sun portal and the beam goes where you aim. If using 3, enemies hit by those reservoir explosions add damage to her 4's beam.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2019-04-28 at 1:21 AM, Shelusine said:

We agree.

Ooh, that was mean... can I get your number? ^^

[_Kiro]

I was hyped for Wisp and going meh for Hildryn when they first revealed both of them but turns out my hype for Hildryn (and how much I use her) has been a lot more than what I feel for Wisp at the moment. I don't fully dislike Wisp's kit but I do agree it falls short... way too short of what I was expecting.

Consider this my own opinion btw:

First skill she just calls small wisps from her "wisp dimension"?... One is health, another is CC and the last one is plain buff (taken out of devstream 126). To be honest her HP buff is useless for the most part, people generally don't care for HP that much, and if they do they mod for it, they don't need extra HP from a buff. Her CC buff MIGHT have some use but again this is kicking the same dead horse again and again - the best CCed enemy is a dead one so this'll probably be useless too unless you're soloing high level runs, and even so I'm not seeing much use there or in a squad. Her flat buff remains to be determined if it's a damage buff, defense buff or both so no comment there.

Her second skill creates a ghost of her that allows ya to switch places and radial blind teleport at the location your ghost arrived which doesn't sound too bad on paper.

Her third skill can be either awesome or another fail since you need to use her first in order to use it.

And lastly her fourth skill is a joke. Any and all Ember players cry in a corner over having 1 new warframe grabbing a friggin' sun to kill enemies while you're there just increasing room temperature. This skill is literally making fun of Ember in itself.

Her passive is amazing. Being invisible while airborne can and will help a ton considering most of us already bullet jump a whole tileset.

Overrall though... I'm left confused over her whole kit. There's supposed to be a wisp dimension and she takes stuff from it - that's to be her whole concept but we're left with ... useless buffs in general, a radial blind with a dash incorporated and summoning a sun?... She feels underwhelming with almost no synergy on her skills aside from you being able to blow up your 1 using 3 - actually I take that back, this is not synergy, it's mandatory considering you can't use your 3 without using your 1. So without your 1 out, your 3 doesn't work? 

Yea ... I prefer Hildryn, she's tanky and useful as heck. Wisp so far is just a big disappointment and this coming from someone who was actually hyped over her.

Edited April 29, 2019 by _Kiro
mistakes

[Shelusine]

On 2019-04-29 at 10:24 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ooh, that was mean... can I get your number? ^^

Sorry honey, I am meaner on the phone.

Joke aside I think I quoted the wrong sentence. My b

[EinheriarJudith]

im surprised no one is making a case for chroma getting her 4. spectral scream is absolute garbage compared to WoF (which i think works just fine)