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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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Just now, Zeclem said:

plenty of good abilities that are stationary.
her two takes a button press to blind
nice that you actually know the numbers on her 4 to declare it to be trash. would you like sharing it with us? 

her 1 is stationary and the buffs don't seem to be that useful maybe the health one could be good but it would need to have op health regen to actually work. Regarding her 2 we need to see how good it covers you from damage before it actually blinds enemies and while I don't have the numbers for her 4th skill you can already estimate it won't kill fast enough armored enemies so they don't burst you down in higher levels. 8v

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Just now, CodeUltimate said:

her 1 is stationary and the buffs don't seem to be that useful maybe the health one could be good but it would need to have op health regen to actually work. Regarding her 2 we need to see how good it covers you from damage before it actually blinds enemies and while I don't have the numbers for her 4th skill you can already estimate it won't kill fast enough armored enemies so they don't burst you down in higher levels. 8v

"dont seem to be that useful" again, i wanna see where you got its numbers. calling a frame trash over baseless assumptions is stupid, and thats what you are doing. 

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7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

"dont seem to be that useful" again, i wanna see where you got its numbers. calling a frame trash over baseless assumptions is stupid, and thats what you are doing. 

Well if you are not allowed to estimate how well her skills will perform at higher levels just from looking at her skill's descriptions then I don't see any point in having a general discussion sub forum. 8v

I'm basing my estimate on what we know about her skills but you are saying she might be good on the hope DE will give her skills good enough ''numbers'' to actually be useful. 

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1 hour ago, CodeUltimate said:

Well if you are not allowed to estimate how well her skills will perform at higher levels just from looking at her skill's descriptions then I don't see any point in having a general discussion sub forum. 8v

I'm basing my estimate on what we know about her skills but you are saying she might be good on the hope DE will give her skills good enough ''numbers'' to actually be useful. 

Well to an extent, numbers do matter. Can her shock buff keep enemies permanently stunned as long they're in range, or is there a grace period for the enemies? Does her health buff have potential to give thousands of health to allies, or just a couple hundred?  Does teleporting to will o wisp give 5 seconds of invincibility  or half a second? Look at titanias tribute. It's got some good ideas in concept, but the numbers are too low for it to be very useful. 

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1 hour ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Well to an extent, numbers do matter. Can her shock buff keep enemies permanently stunned as long they're in range, or is there a grace period for the enemies? Does her health buff have potential to give thousands of health to allies, or just a couple hundred?  Does teleporting to will o wisp give 5 seconds of invincibility  or half a second? Look at titanias tribute. It's got some good ideas in concept, but the numbers are too low for it to be very useful. 

numbers do matter but I'm saying that with the information we have right now her abilities already suck 8v

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I mentioned this in the reveal thread but I really feel like Wisp should've been more stealth centered instead of just tacking on some random DPS and support abilities. The only ability I feel like that actually fits her is Wil-O-Wisp.

They had the opportunity to make a unique and actually pretty well balanced stealth frame and it really seems like they were onto something with her passive and Wil-O-Wisp. Her being able to stealth while airborne means she can stealth without energy but can't really perma stealth since she eventually has to land on the ground. This synergizes really well with those new parkour mods and also compliments that new Gas City rework very nicely.

Her first ability is a straight upgrade to Volt's speed ability since you not only get increased movement speed but you also get increased health and passive radial electric damage. Really lazy design no offense.

Her second ability is like Loki's decoy but actually improves on the design instead of just adding multiple versions of it on a toggle wheel (*cough* first ability *cough*). Loki's decoy was already pretty underwhelming since in order to use it effectively you needed to use a second ability in order to maximize its effective which isn't even that great to begin with. By rolling several mediocre abilities into one cohesive ability just shows how fragmented the design can be. Much like her fourth ability, I think it would've been perfect for a Loki rework but I guess they just want it on Wisp. At the very least, I think it fits her design as a stealth frame.

Her third ability is just a bonus damage ability that everyone will just use without a second thought. Like at that point why not just make it a passive if you're probably going to constantly use it? Again, very lazy design.

Finally, I want to just come out and say: Not every Frame needs a big DPS ability to be good. Like Sol Gate is cool and all but its just another big DPS ability that's probably severely outclassed by other abilities like Peacemakers and Dance Macabre. If they really liked the ability design, then they should've just given it to Ember or something so we can finally get rid of her dumb World on Fire ability for good.

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7 hours ago, -Amaterasu- said:

What even are you on about? They said no ability has ever been changed so I listed a bunch that have been completely changed.

No offense meant, but you misunderstood the statement, and thus my reply to you ^^

When a frame is finalised, the abilities are not changed until a rework. Tweaked, yes, rebalanced sometimes, also yes. But when you see the Warframe Profile go up... those are the abilities. That was the other player's point; we're not getting Wisp's abilities changed now, we're only getting to test them on release, with potential bug-fixes and mechanical updates over the next few weeks to a month.

Their comment was geared to the earlier comments about wanting to change her abilities after DE have basically just... not listened to the fact that just as many people didn't want to have another steer-the-animation style of 4th ability as didn't want it on Garuda, and when we said it about Garuda we got the amazing 4th ability she has now instead, and we were hoping for a similar transformation here... Until they did the second round of previews, and then the Warframe Profile dropped.

That's kind of the thing there. No, we're not getting her abilities changed, only updated from this point on.

And then my reply to you was to point out that even your list of changed abilities actually wasn't all that indicative of your point either. That's because even on your list, the ability functions were only moved, they were not removed from or replaced on the warframe kits. With the exception of Ember's Overheat, all of those frames still have the function of the abilities that you were saying were changed.

Also, you might want to check some things before you state them:

8 hours ago, -Amaterasu- said:

Super Jump was removed and became exalted blade. It didn't become bullet jump and both existed at the same time for quite a while.

Nope. Super Jump was removed in preparation for Parkour 2.0

Super Jump was removed and Exalted Blade was put in during Update 16.9 on June 17th of 2015, while Parkour 2.0 was introduced over a month after that in Update 17.0 on July 31st 2015. The stated reason for this change was that Super Jump was being given to all frames in the new Parkour, it would literally be a redundant energy cast.

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8 hours ago, TehGrief said:

I think when it comes to the theme of ANY warframe, it SHOULD be important and most certainly cared about. 

Having a thematic kit that has synergy among the abilities is what makes a warframe enjoyable, or at least, this is my opinion on the matter. 

To be honest, Wisp's number [1] ability, Reservoirs, was the main part of her kit that had me excited. Prior to the news release on the 17th, Wisp's number [3] had synergy with her number [1], but they then went and changed that (I can somewhat understand WHY they did it, however, it should have remained the way it was in addition to the new mechanics... but that's feedback for another thread.)

Wisp's [4] has always had me confused, since her ability announcement in the Dev-stream; it is obviously the most out of place ability in her kit. She has a support ability, a pseudo-crowd control / evasive ability, and (what is presumed to be) a radial crowd control ability - with her passive, [1], [2], and [3], we would assume that she was some kind of squishy-yet-stealthy support + crowd control frame that cares about mobile positioning. Then... her [4] was announced... my jaw honestly dropped; a channeled damage ability? Why? It serves no purpose in her playstyle. In addition to not suiting her theme / synergizing with her kit, it's likely going to get her killed a lot in higher level content.

 

This is true - the Wisp Review/Early feedback thread has a HUGE following with many good ideas (though, it has mostly de-railed at this point).

 

She had been introduced as some sort of "Portal Mage"; meaning that she was going to have a theme based around portals. However... I have no idea how we ended up where we are today with her kit. 

 

 

Funny enough, and proof that what i said about DE going off the rails when it comes to themes is true, this "portal mage" has literally ONE ability involving portals and that same ability is the only "mage-like" ability she has.

 

Hell, why in the world is her passive that she stealths while in the air? What does that have to do with ANY part of her kit?

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8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As I said, you complicate things. Like seeing them as something very narrow and specific. That just isnt the case in general when it comes to "pagan" folklore. They arent demons or deities of this and that, they arent evil or good, one power doesnt prohibit the other etc.

And when did we get to the point where Wisp is shooting lasers or plucking plants out of her...? All her skills revolve around the use of portals (or teleportation). The plants come from a portal, the spreading damage comes from a dimensional fracture and her ult is based around a portal that lets through the suns intense energy.

I mean even if you cant see the Wisp theme, the portal theme is there to 100% in her current itteration.

 

 

I am not sure i am the one trying to complicate things, 

If you are so certain please describe wisps working in a single simple sentence. 

And if it covers all her abilities sufficiently, well then you can say it is simple. 

I am also not interested in arguments of theological or demonic nature, especially of good and evil  we got to this point by referencing mythical entities.

"Pagan" is far far too broad it can be anything , as I said, anything under the sun is possible and all the frames in the game will have a reference to one obscure entity or another, so are they all spirits or some kind? 

So now according to you wisp (or fire torch) is not the right theme but portal is, have you finally decided on the theme then? Which took you this long to arrive on? 

 

P. S. Guess my thread got merged. 

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4 hours ago, Tricky5hift said:

I mentioned this in the reveal thread but I really feel like Wisp should've been more stealth centered instead of just tacking on some random DPS and support abilities. The only ability I feel like that actually fits her is Wil-O-Wisp.

They had the opportunity to make a unique and actually pretty well balanced stealth frame and it really seems like they were onto something with her passive and Wil-O-Wisp. Her being able to stealth while airborne means she can stealth without energy but can't really perma stealth since she eventually has to land on the ground. This synergizes really well with those new parkour mods and also compliments that new Gas City rework very nicely.

Her first ability is a straight upgrade to Volt's speed ability since you not only get increased movement speed but you also get increased health and passive radial electric damage. Really lazy design no offense.

Her second ability is like Loki's decoy but actually improves on the design instead of just adding multiple versions of it on a toggle wheel (*cough* first ability *cough*). Loki's decoy was already pretty underwhelming since in order to use it effectively you needed to use a second ability in order to maximize its effective which isn't even that great to begin with. By rolling several mediocre abilities into one cohesive ability just shows how fragmented the design can be. Much like her fourth ability, I think it would've been perfect for a Loki rework but I guess they just want it on Wisp. At the very least, I think it fits her design as a stealth frame.

Her third ability is just a bonus damage ability that everyone will just use without a second thought. Like at that point why not just make it a passive if you're probably going to constantly use it? Again, very lazy design.

Finally, I want to just come out and say: Not every Frame needs a big DPS ability to be good. Like Sol Gate is cool and all but its just another big DPS ability that's probably severely outclassed by other abilities like Peacemakers and Dance Macabre. If they really liked the ability design, then they should've just given it to Ember or something so we can finally get rid of her dumb World on Fire ability for good.

You understand the same expectation I had when I saw wisp's reveal. They could of had the first unique stealth frame but no they had to make it a buffer frame with a weird passive and 4 ability which does not fit the Name of the frame at all in my honesty opinion. 

 

To each his own I suppose

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23 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

at the risk of sounding petty, wisp is a bunch of small things that can usually be wrapped around something which can then be used as a torch.

And again , if her fourth ability was a lantern that confused or distracted enemies it would have been fine , but a laser beam from the sun is not quite it, especially considering every instance of will-o-the-wisp (that is the base theme here) is associated with night time.

From Oxford

Spoiler

Definition of wisp in English:

wisp

 
 

NOUN

  • 1A small thin or twisted bunch, piece, or amount of something.

    ‘wisps of smoke rose into the air’
     
     
    1. 1.1 A small bunch of hay or straw used for drying or grooming a horse.
       
    2. 1.2 A small, thin person, typically a child.
      ‘a fourteen-year-old wisp of a girl’
       
       
  • 2rare A flock of snipe.

    ‘a wisp of snipe utter their well-known cry’
     
     

Origin

Middle English: origin uncertain; perhaps related to whisk.

From Merriam-Webster

Spoiler

wisp

 noun
\ ˈwisp  \

Definition of wisp

1: a small handful (as of hay or straw)

2a: a thin strip or fragment
b: a thready streaka wisp of smoke
c: something frail, slight, or fleetinga wisp of a girla wisp of a smile
3archaic : WILL-O'-THE-WISP

The Mystical Origins of Will-o'-the-Wisp

The will-o'-the-wisp is a flame-like phosphorescence caused by gases from decaying plants in marshy areas. In olden days, it was personified as "Will with the wisp," a sprite who carried a fleeting "wisp" of light. Foolish travelers were said to try to follow the light and were then led astray into the marsh. (An 18th-century fairy tale described Will as one "who bears the wispy fire to trail the swains among the mire.") The light was first known, and still also is, as ignis fatuus, which in Latin means "foolish fire." Eventually, the name will-o’-the-wisp was extended to any impractical or unattainable goal.

 

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are complicating it.

Forest folk, which the wisp is part of covers both plants and portals. The wisp itself represents fire (all light was fire back then), it is different between cultures how  present the fire is. It can range anywhere from the dot of light (which represents will-o-wisps in many games/stories), the ghost carrying a lantern (or having a flaming pumpkin head in Jack's case) all the way to the so called Irrbloss, which is basically a living flame in the shape of a naked woman dancing in the air.

The "portals" are part of the forest folk, it is what many of them use to move or take things from their world to ours or the other way around. It doesnt have to be fancy "mage" portals, it can be anything from a hole in the root of a tree, a bonfire, a rock or an actual magic portal. It can also be something as simple as just imagining it.

I'm swedish, so I grew up with the Irrbloss and the lantern man, that is why I find the skills pretty spot on because they cover a wide representation of the theme, which is nature, spirit and fire.

Oooh and what might be Irrbloss?

Spoiler

Irrbloss [ edit | edit wikitext ]

 
 
Jump to navigationJump to search
For the Swedish music group, see Irrbloss (music group) .
Merge arrows
According to a proposal , this article should be merged with Lyktgubbe (2018-05) ( See discussion )
250px-Tulilautta3.jpg
 
A reconstruction of a blob.

Irrbloss or ignis fatuus are small mysterious lights on heaths , marshes and marshes .

In the past, they were thought to be souls of people who performed as much evil as good in life and therefore neither came to heaven nor hell. Another view was that they would be people who were deceived into falling into the marshes and then, after their death, ascended as an irresistible, forever dancing around the place where they died, leading other people lost their lives either to safety or to their death.

Scientifically explained as the bubbles of sump gas as self-ignite and burn with a cold flame. [ 1 ] [ 2 ] However, this has not been proven yet.

 

 

12 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree due to cultural differences , but neither of the entities you mentioned has any of the aspects of the current frame at the same time.

I am just not used to seeing a plant demon / deity shooting lasers and a fire demon /deity plucking plants out of its ... nether regions in any of teh myths i have heard *except that one demon that ate the gods and stole their powers but irrelevant for current discussion).

 

If it works for you fine , just know that you have been unable to convince me of your point of view refgarding the consistency of the frames theme.

Wisp is literally an English word that has absolutely nothing to do with fire. Even THE WILL WITH THE WISP is a ghost with a lantern. Even your Irrbloss, is effectively the same thing. There must indeed be a large culture difference. There also must be some translation problems into Swedish, but Google translate handled that wiki article well. I am actually not sure @SneakyErvin if you are actually confused about the reference, or hoped that no one would take the time to point out that like much derived from Celtic lore and the Druids, whom never kept records, are effectively the same across much of the Gaelic, English, and Nordic territories. In short, very few were concerned about being burned by what is known as "foolish fire", more that they were used by evil, almost always deceased, spirits to lead travelers to their doom. You weren't burned by Ignis Fatuus, you were lost to the swamp spirits when you thought it was the light of town. Nearly every reference in pop culture, or even historical fiction, has the fire simply trickery used by a ghost. This is how it has been since ancient times. It didn't destroy the swamp, or forest. It didn't even burn people who contacted what is actually a real phenomena. To think our ancestors were as confused as the direction the game has taken with the Warframes is a little off-putting. The Druids were endeavoring, however primitively, to describe actual events. Will-o-wisps are scientifically real, however in an age when air was generally regarded as just one "thing" rather than a mixture of chemicals one could not so accurately describe balls of phosphorescent gas. Humans, even in this day and age, like to attribute "intent" to phenomena, a "reason why this is occurring to me". Just like someone spills their coffee on themselves in a rush leads to the adage "when it rains it pours" humans throughout the ages have tried to describe natural events, of course with sometimes laughable accuracy. 

While "Wisp" is defined as a "small, or fleeting amount of something" that can indeed be a wisp of hay used to start a fire, the fire too produces a wisp of smoke. The wispy appearance and rare occurrence of Will-o-the-wisps eluded proper scientific explanation for thousands of years. It evokes the thoughts of transparency, illusion, and mystery. To me, the disappointment in the "theme" of the current "wisp" cannot be overstated. I could understand the kit, with a few notable tweaks, being usable on a Warframe that they describe as "

WISP, THE ETHEREAL WARFRAME

Float through the halls of the Gas City as the unseen helping hand. Her light-based abilities provide support to allies, while her unique passive makes her invisible in the air. Defeat the Ropalolyst to earn our 40th Warframe.

 "

Emphasis mine. She is now officially a light based Warframe that happens to look like, and be named Wisp. If they just replaced her has always been a placeholder 3 with world on fire, and her absolutely crippled 1 into Accelerant, you would have had you an Ember rework. Now we get rule 63 Irrbloss of the sun. 0 of the interesting part of this historic mystery that has only been rivaled by UFOs as popular mysteries that baffled even the greatest of minds throughout multiple enlightenments. All of the "Fire does damage. Damage is all people want. What is the biggest fire after the world being on fire? Oh yeah the Sun. Sun is big fire." Granted I beat this dead horse past Elmer's here. What we see is what we get. Hopefully it will also be both super fun and easy to kill the Ropalolyst. She isn't screaming "I need to be played" and with like 2% of the player base having gone through the Eidolons that have been around for some time, I just see a lot of mess on this release. Bring it at me though. I just charge new players for auras they can't get in game anymore and get the pack if she has any use or if fashionframe demands.   

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, F8ted said:

Snip

Pretty much what I am trying to say, yeah. 

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4 hours ago, F8ted said:

-snip-

The wiki entry for Irrbloss is very shallow. I havent even looked at it until now. Better to read some scandinavian stories or religious history instead. The actual Irrbloss is a female fairy/elf-like being much resembling The Human Torch from Marvel. It wasnt until later, after the establishment of christianity that they turned them into the lost souls with a lantern in their hand, much like how fire sprites in old english folklore went from tiny little light/fire creatures into cursed men like Will-o-the-wisp.

Thinking about it, maybe they should have named Wisp Sprite instead.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you are so certain please describe wisps working in a single simple sentence. 

They may have strayed from a simplified "wisp" concept, but they are still 100% true to two other concepts throughout her kit.

1. The original mention of portals. They are there in every single skill.

2. Light, which seems to be their new final theme, which is also present in 100% of her kit.

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3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The wiki entry for Irrbloss is very shallow. I havent even looked at it until now. Better to read some scandinavian stories or religious history instead. The actual Irrbloss is a female fairy/elf-like being much resembling The Human Torch from Marvel. It wasnt until later, after the establishment of christianity that they turned them into the lost souls with a lantern in their hand, much like how fire sprites in old english folklore went from tiny little light/fire creatures into cursed men like Will-o-the-wisp.

Thinking about it, maybe they should have named Wisp Sprite instead.

Does Irrbloss grow plants or turn invisible when she jumps? Also as you have described if she was like the human torch you would be describing ember (or revenant) , not wisp.

The naming could have been better but is not really a major concern, using a term over generations may associate it with things that it was not intended for if used in conjunction. 

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They may have strayed from a simplified "wisp" concept, but they are still 100% true to two other concepts throughout her kit.

1. The original mention of portals. They are there in every single skill.

2. Light, which seems to be their new final theme, which is also present in 100% of her kit.

100% may not be what you want to say when you say two different concepts in the same sentence 50/50, 70/30,80/20 would be better.

Also any skill of any frame may be considered a portal usage of some sort. And an association to her 3 being a portal is weak at best. Give me a skill and I will tell you how it is from a different dimension and indirectly a portal.

A light bender would indeed be more suitable but is not present in her 1, (her 3 is still sketchy on the light usage could just as well be sound or mental waves).

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The wiki entry for Irrbloss is very shallow. I havent even looked at it until now. Better to read some scandinavian stories or religious history instead. The actual Irrbloss is a female fairy/elf-like being much resembling The Human Torch from Marvel. It wasnt until later, after the establishment of christianity that they turned them into the lost souls with a lantern in their hand, much like how fire sprites in old english folklore went from tiny little light/fire creatures into cursed men like Will-o-the-wisp.

Thinking about it, maybe they should have named Wisp Sprite instead.

They may have strayed from a simplified "wisp" concept, but they are still 100% true to two other concepts throughout her kit.

1. The original mention of portals. They are there in every single skill.

2. Light, which seems to be their new final theme, which is also present in 100% of her kit.

They should have named her damnear anything besides Wisp. Sol, Petal, Aura, Wick. Like anything to do with anything she resembles. Like what am I supposed to do study a whole religious perspective in a language I never hear, in order to see someones opinion, that there really was a point in history where people thought that swamp lights, were from the power of the sun? Like, I don't care that Fomorians are a gigantic ship. At least they are a giant something. That's well enough. Garuda makes bird sounds and her claws kind of look like feathers. Mkay, a little bit of a stretch but at least there is a hint of the original flavor. Now you sit here telling me that Will-o-wisps, in like your very specific religious views, are based on fire enough that blasting people with the sun seems acceptable.

Need I remind that Druid Lore is largely lost due to lack of written record, leading unfortunately the best records being the establishment of Christianity's criticism. Rome visited many cultures and bastardized their lore with Christian analogues. Nordic lore is no different, being kennings are the rough equivalent of what Christmas Jingles are to Christian history. Very few kept such traditions alive after the spread of Christianity and the loss of empire, but in the traditions of both are some remnants of their history. To pigeonhole back into Will-o-the-wisps, or explanations for swamp gas, remember these are natural occurrences in swamps. These could not occur in areas that the Scandinavian folk, nor the English Folk could live. Unlike in the tropical areas, such locations are viciously inhospitable due to conditions of freezing that never occur in the tropics. As such, these were always in areas that would be meant to be avoided or the consequences may be dire. Not a single one of them died from heat or burning, which one would presuppose the "Wise men" the fledgling Christians described the Druids as being having been at least partially knowledgeable about nature of their disappearance. Indeed many would be simply lost to death, sometimes found caught in mud, sometimes preserved for centuries within said mud. 

While it's somewhat true that lost souls is a particularly Christian spin on the nature of death, such trickery was not beyond the spirits of the dead in Druidic or Norse tradition. Though the exact nature of the beliefs of said traditions are lost to antiquity due to the lack of proper history, almost every religion that comes into contact with swamps has a will-o-the-wisp myth. Most likely due to the fact that they actually exist. From Ingis Fatuus to Foxfire, literally no one wrongly attributes the danger of the fire to heat. In fact they simply conflate the look of it, to the reason the trickery is effective. Many assumed it was some sort of non burning fire, even quite recently. I am here to at least clear up for the confused that virtually no one for thousands of years have thought that Will-o-the-wisps burn people. Not Ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Muslims, Hindus, Celts, Viking, Greeks, Buddhists, Shinto, Taoists, Native American, Aztec, Sikh, etc. Now which Scandinavian story do you believe will cover this discrepancy, and which fundamental religious history have I missed?

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Summoning a plant and a deathray (Because it certainly isn't the sun. Opening a portal to the surface of the sun sounds utterly moronic and deadly to all parties involved.) isn't exactly very portal-themed, even if you say she uses portals to summon them. Nova literally summons a wormhole portal you can walk through. Limbo can shift between dimensions and has a kit centered entirely around tossing people between these two dimensions. That's portal themed. This? You could've just as easily said Oberon summons his magic grass through a portal and say he's "portal themed." Excalibur? Obviously he has a portal in his sleeve where he hides his sword. Boom! Portal themed frame! Ash teleports behind enemies to execute them, must be doing it through a portal!

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21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Personal preference mate , i enjoy things that make sense (within the context and constraints of the story) ,

i have not really addressed or raised concerns about power level or utility of the frame i prefer to test it or observe from experience before commenting about that aspect.

It is indeed DEs game and they can deploy whatever powers they want on whatever frame they want.

 

But i cannot agree with your first statement , are you implying everyone must like whatever DE puts in front of them as long as it is more powerful than their current most powerful item (or atleast as good as)? not sure how that is funny that's just sad in my books (and needs a separate discussion of frame kit synergy and scaling).

 the player base has always provided feedback , but weve come a long way from constructive criticism to being spoiled and complaining about everything lately in many rant , rage threads. its a perceived aspect of self entitlement to bash everything with or without much grounds  that ive sarted to really get put off by my fellow tenno in forums.

example

-rage threads on trinity strega in reference to foot binding (due to small feet),  oberon feyarch , no rage thread exact small feet design used in layout, as it was the artists style. both designs show it prior and only got rage on release of stregas

Spoiler

Image result for trinity stregaImage result for oberon feyarch concept art

trinity had plenty of salt on this topic and it was a perceived subjection of footbinding which it wasnt. now im not saying the topic is equal to this debate , more that people biased views can influence how they react and want view something in a way it isnt or ever was designed for.

i have plenty of examples of these types of situations appearing , but the besides that type we also have vocal minority and quite majority as a player base, what you have in mind might not always be the best for the community as a whole .

onto the topic of wisp in her kit /design. ect is one players started wanting to tear her apart and throw her parts onto ember like the second her powers were demoed , this was already a bad start to constructive criticism, in regards to this frame

im mot saying to blindly accept everything but as we saw with khora, de has a design and theme for a frame they want to put into the game. given that they tweak and alter till that frame meets the criteria they had in mind , but the theme is the key point.

ive played plenty of underpowered frames since ive started MAG , OBERON, ect when they were trash kits  . i made them work as its how you play a frame and design its build that makes it function. later they get tweaks and are buffed to useful. so plenty of criticism and feedback help shape frames to reach their potential

as for wisp i can already see a tactical use for and her own nitch , stealth mixed with a flared of destruction . something akin to ash .  but more direct and indirect in how you apply her kit

layout some base cast 1s , when approaching enemies cast her 2 in air (cloak passives)  , cast 3 , when 3 afflicts cast 4 = grofit , it dosnt take rocket science 

she can be useful in interception spy, assassination ect as she is, its how you apply the powers. my topic of scaling isnt for pure DPS or power, its balance. weve already seen she has a glass jaw and requires 1 and 2 for surviving (probably aviator would help) , and factoring in the ability to cloak in air, would help her survivability. example frames like this are nova, banshee

wisps new 3 looks to CC on hit, along with it stated scaling damage it deals to each target they afflict as they jump, using 4 to kill targets and spread this makes it very effective to wipe out groups and scale damage among them. duration, range, strength balancing will probably need to be kept in balance for this capability to be maximized i think

 

 

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What if the passive also worked on evasions as well? I feel like it doesn't offer much and you'll only get the most out of it if you use the new air time mods if it only works while in the air.

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4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Does Irrbloss grow plants or turn invisible when she jumps? Also as you have described if she was like the human torch you would be describing ember (or revenant) , not wisp.

The naming could have been better but is not really a major concern, using a term over generations may associate it with things that it was not intended for if used in conjunction. 

100% may not be what you want to say when you say two different concepts in the same sentence 50/50, 70/30,80/20 would be better.

Also any skill of any frame may be considered a portal usage of some sort. And an association to her 3 being a portal is weak at best. Give me a skill and I will tell you how it is from a different dimension and indirectly a portal.

A light bender would indeed be more suitable but is not present in her 1, (her 3 is still sketchy on the light usage could just as well be sound or mental waves).

Most forest folk in norse/germanic lore can go invisible whenever they chose, or hide in plain site looking like one of us. Even trolls can do it in some tales, but it often depends on the troll. Tusse steins in norwegian stories are often trolls hiding in plain site, looking like a rock. And sometimes, like in the story of Svensk Henrik (Henric the swede) the trolls have hidden their lair in the shape of a house in the woods. So when Henrik is fleeing from the lawmen he stumbles onto this house and pounds the door hoping the people will hide him, only to realise too late it was a so called Tusse Stein (a troll rock) and not a house. They used to be called the hidden people long ago. And no, I'm not saying they have powers like human torch, just that they look like him or well her if you look at Nova (not the Xandarian one). Regarding the plant growing, no, probably not, but then again as been said before we arent looking at a 1:1 interpritation or inspiration from any one single creature.

Also, if there are two things present on every single skill, it is indeed 100% representation of both, not 50/50. 50/50 would be if 1+2 were light and 3+4 were portals, but as it is every skill is both a portal and a light inspired skill.

I also doubt that you can apply a portal to any skill of any frame. Regulators and Talons for instance, pull off a portal connection on either of those. #3 is a dimensional breach i.e a portal (gateway) to a dimension of some kind.

Her 1 has motes inside, tiny little fragments of light or matter. And aslong as DE says her 3 is light, then it is light and not sound or mental waves.

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4 hours ago, F8ted said:

Need I remind that Druid Lore is largely lost due to lack of written record, leading unfortunately the best records being the establishment of Christianity's criticism. Rome visited many cultures and bastardized their lore with Christian analogues. Nordic lore is no different, being kennings are the rough equivalent of what Christmas Jingles are to Christian history. Very few kept such traditions alive after the spread of Christianity and the loss of empire, but in the traditions of both are some remnants of their history. To pigeonhole back into Will-o-the-wisps, or explanations for swamp gas, remember these are natural occurrences in swamps. These could not occur in areas that the Scandinavian folk, nor the English Folk could live. Unlike in the tropical areas, such locations are viciously inhospitable due to conditions of freezing that never occur in the tropics. As such, these were always in areas that would be meant to be avoided or the consequences may be dire. Not a single one of them died from heat or burning, which one would presuppose the "Wise men" the fledgling Christians described the Druids as being having been at least partially knowledgeable about nature of their disappearance. Indeed many would be simply lost to death, sometimes found caught in mud, sometimes preserved for centuries within said mud.

Just because we have an explaination for it now that pinpoints them to specific regions it doesnt mean they were isolated to those regions back then. Tales and myths wander, they had no need to tie them to specific places like we do now because they didnt have the science to tell them that. Sure they have originated around an area with a swamp, but it doesnt mean the story about the creature stayed there. A reason why they were often connected to fresh graves aswell as seen dancing around fires during celebrations (although that could be because people were dead drunk or high on mushrooms and thought the fire was alive).  

The name of the creature such as the Irrbloss didnt come from the scientific explaination of ignited swamp gas, but the scientific explaination of ignited swamp gas got its name from the ancient creature. I'm also not sure what the way of dying has to do with it since I cant recall ever saying or implying that they killed people through fire, I just said they were beings of fire and that the Sol Gate could be seen as "leading them to their death" in a perverted WF way.  And as with all other spirit/forest folk in scandinavia, it wasnt uncommon to see them as the cause of accidents. So it wouldnt surprise me if the Irrbloss was seen as the reason when a house, stable or other thing burnt down, just as it wasnt uncommon to blame the tomte or vätte when things went missing or your livestock got sick. You simply hadnt payed tribute as you should or you had moved onto their territory without showing proper respect.

I mean there are alot of stories from all over up here. Heck just a few miles from here lies a massive rock in the middle of a field. The rock is split in half and said to be thrown there by a giant to scare away the first christians that planned to build a church there. And further west along the coast there is a placed that is said to have been bombarded by giants from the island Bornholm, throwing them straight over the sound to kill the christian invasion force that at the time landed in what was the northeastern most part of the dane kingdom.

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With regards to wisp and honestly, any other frame past or future... I am not too concerned with how specific DE stays to the theme that inspired the frame.  I think a lot of people tend to feel that the theme needs to be exact and not stray one little bit, otherwise it's trash. ("DE says '...is portal themed', then every ability must have portals!!!")  That's a bit extreme.  What it all comes down to is if the frame is FUN TO PLAY.  Is wisp fun to play?  Too soon to tell, of course.  But that's what really matters.  If DE decides in the future to release a frame that has no specific theme and is collection of many different ideas, people would rage and declare it a "mess".  Even if that frame was super fun and efficient to play.  We shouldn't lose sight of what is important here.  DE tries to take a concept/theme/idea and turn it into something new and fresh.  Sure, they don't always succeed in this effort, but no one's perfect. 

All in all, I'm excited to get my hands on Wisp.  She looks fun and interesting.  People like to compare each ability to frames that are already in the game stating it's the same as "this ability" or is a worse version of "that ability", but all DE is doing is giving players choices.  Having many options that offer similar things with some smaller differences is a good thing.  Wisp may not tailor to what you're looking for when it comes to CC, healing, dps, etc...  but she will be perfect for many players in the community.  That's a success in view.

Keep up the good work DE.  You're doing great and it's clear you work very hard and care a lot about the content you release.  Thank you for so many amazing years in this free to play game!

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12 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

 the player base has always provided feedback , but weve come a long way from constructive criticism to being spoiled and complaining about everything lately in many rant , rage threads. its a perceived aspect of self entitlement to bash everything with or without much grounds  that ive sarted to really get put off by my fellow tenno in forums.

example

-rage threads on trinity strega in reference to foot binding (due to small feet),  oberon feyarch , no rage thread exact small feet design used in layout, as it was the artists style. both designs show it prior and only got rage on release of stregas

  Reveal hidden contents

Image result for trinity stregaImage result for oberon feyarch concept art

trinity had plenty of salt on this topic and it was a perceived subjection of footbinding which it wasnt. now im not saying the topic is equal to this debate , more that people biased views can influence how they react and want view something in a way it isnt or ever was designed for.

i have plenty of examples of these types of situations appearing , but the besides that type we also have vocal minority and quite majority as a player base, what you have in mind might not always be the best for the community as a whole .

onto the topic of wisp in her kit /design. ect is one players started wanting to tear her apart and throw her parts onto ember like the second her powers were demoed , this was already a bad start to constructive criticism, in regards to this frame

im mot saying to blindly accept everything but as we saw with khora, de has a design and theme for a frame they want to put into the game. given that they tweak and alter till that frame meets the criteria they had in mind , but the theme is the key point.

ive played plenty of underpowered frames since ive started MAG , OBERON, ect when they were trash kits  . i made them work as its how you play a frame and design its build that makes it function. later they get tweaks and are buffed to useful. so plenty of criticism and feedback help shape frames to reach their potential

as for wisp i can already see a tactical use for and her own nitch , stealth mixed with a flared of destruction . something akin to ash .  but more direct and indirect in how you apply her kit

layout some base cast 1s , when approaching enemies cast her 2 in air (cloak passives)  , cast 3 , when 3 afflicts cast 4 = grofit , it dosnt take rocket science 

she can be useful in interception spy, assassination ect as she is, its how you apply the powers. my topic of scaling isnt for pure DPS or power, its balance. weve already seen she has a glass jaw and requires 1 and 2 for surviving (probably aviator would help) , and factoring in the ability to cloak in air, would help her survivability. example frames like this are nova, banshee

wisps new 3 looks to CC on hit, along with it stated scaling damage it deals to each target they afflict as they jump, using 4 to kill targets and spread this makes it very effective to wipe out groups and scale damage among them. duration, range, strength balancing will probably need to be kept in balance for this capability to be maximized i think

Me: this frame doesn't really feel like it's made of a single concept but more like a patchwork of things DE just wanted to showcase cause it will look pretty. Not sure if it even has a theme. 

You: the showcase can be used effectively I am sure of it. 

We are debating different things friend, it's like I am saying "it doesn't look blue" and you say "but it's round",

notice that I have not talked about the effectiveness of the kit at all. 

and also the first few paragraphs about you complaining about complainers isn't even relevant to the main topic, feels like you just have a bias for feetless legs. 

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Most forest folk in norse/germanic lore can go invisible whenever they chose, or hide in plain site looking like one of us. Even trolls can do it in some tales, but it often depends on the troll. Tusse steins in norwegian stories are often trolls hiding in plain site, looking like a rock. And sometimes, like in the story of Svensk Henrik (Henric the swede) the trolls have hidden their lair in the shape of a house in the woods. So when Henrik is fleeing from the lawmen he stumbles onto this house and pounds the door hoping the people will hide him, only to realise too late it was a so called Tusse Stein (a troll rock) and not a house. They used to be called the hidden people long ago. And no, I'm not saying they have powers like human torch, just that they look like him or well her if you look at Nova (not the Xandarian one). Regarding the plant growing, no, probably not, but then again as been said before we arent looking at a 1:1 interpritation or inspiration from any one single creature.

We are referencing the will o the wisp, if the theme was generic Norwegian spirit Frankenstein with a portal gun taped to its forehead then your statements would be right, 

You are the one that made that statement about not being 1:1 to a single creature, I never really agreed to it. And again by that logic any frame could be anything mixed with anything else.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also doubt that you can apply a portal to any skill of any frame. Regulators and Talons for instance, pull off a portal connection on either of those. #3 is a dimensional breach i.e a portal (gateway) to a dimension of some kind..

Challenge accepted. 

Regulators: Mesa opens a portal inside her guns to the arsenal/bullet dimension, as long as she has energy she keeps getting bullets. 

Talons: her talons are the roots of the ygddrisil they absorb the life force of the enemies. But the roots would wither if cut from the tree, Garuda uses her power of blood to create a portal on her wrists, she keeps feeding the portal with her own blood and the blood of her enemies. 

Didn't take me 10 seconds to think that up. 

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Her 1 has motes inside, tiny little fragments of light or matter. And aslong as DE says her 3 is light, then it is light and not sound or mental waves.

Matter is not the same as light, (u less you go into wave theory) 

And of course light inside a closed box, obviously it must be light themed why didn't I think of that. 

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

.Also, if there are two things present on every single skill, it is indeed 100% representation of both, not 50/50. 50/50 would be if 1+2 were light and 3+4 were portals, but as it is every skill is both a portal and a light inspired skill.

I just explained above portals is a weak concept. And her 1 being light based is a stretch. So disagreeing with your base assumption that all her abilities are light and portal based. 

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On 2019-05-19 at 7:24 PM, Zeclem said:

"dont seem to be that useful" again, i wanna see where you got its numbers. calling a frame trash over baseless assumptions is stupid, and thats what you are doing. 

The numbers could be great, but that kind of ability just doesn't work in most of Warframe. 

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9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

We are referencing the will o the wisp, if the theme was generic Norwegian spirit Frankenstein with a portal gun taped to its forehead then your statements would be right, 

You are the one that made that statement about not being 1:1 to a single creature, I never really agreed to it. And again by that logic any frame could be anything mixed with anything else.

Challenge accepted. 

Regulators: Mesa opens a portal inside her guns to the arsenal/bullet dimension, as long as she has energy she keeps getting bullets. 

Talons: her talons are the roots of the ygddrisil they absorb the life force of the enemies. But the roots would wither if cut from the tree, Garuda uses her power of blood to create a portal on her wrists, she keeps feeding the portal with her own blood and the blood of her enemies. 

Didn't take me 10 seconds to think that up. 

Matter is not the same as light, (u less you go into wave theory) 

And of course light inside a closed box, obviously it must be light themed why didn't I think of that. 

I just explained above portals is a weak concept. And her 1 being light based is a stretch. So disagreeing with your base assumption that all her abilities are light and portal based. 

I'm referencing wisps in general. DE as far as I know never stated specifically Will-o-the-wisp though.

Most frames are. I dont think there is a single frame that follows their name/theme to 100%. Name some frames that are perfectly designed based on their theme. I can think of maybe a handful.

Grasping for straws with those "portal" thoughts on several levels. You are missing the point that Warframes arent tied to the actual mythological things DE may draw inspirations from. There is no world tree to open portals to, just as Wisp doesnt open portals to any spirit dimension. You are really having a hard time accepting and understanding what the themes really imply. Nekros doesnt raise the dead, he uses nano technology to patch up and control the dead or destroyed. It is all just advanced tech and void manipulation.

I'd guess that depends on the matter. Here we are talking about materilizing things from the void to do whatever we want. If those motes are tiny particles of light then so be it.

We'll have to see how it turns out when she is released. 3/4 skills fitting 2 themes would be pretty good, along with a passive that also follows it.

Also a side note. People (you) take it a bit too seriously anyway. Have you forgotten that WF already has it's own unique take on wisps implemented in the game, it's been like that since the release of PoE. Same as with how it classifies the use of motes.

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8 hours ago, Yousho said:

The numbers could be great, but that kind of ability just doesn't work in most of Warframe. 

there are tons of examples where they do work but k. 

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