Amalgam Wolf is 99.999% unkillable.

[Paradoxity]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

Really not seeing a problem with this other than new players expecting to be able to beat a rare assassin spawn right off the bat. I never could do that with stalker, he just wrecked me until I progressed further in the game. That's not a bad thing, that's progression.

Yeah, but think like a new player with no options to A) not get invaded and B) kill the wolf- at least not in a reasonable amount of time (I'm sure with enough time and effort a really good  new player with a mk.1 weapon could down him, but I suspect it'd be pretty dicey). Are you going to play a game that just randomly drops an unkillable boss mob on you, or are you gonna drop it to go play any of a dozen other offerings? It's fair progression to not be able to hack certain missions or nodes or bosses, that's fine. It's not fine when  new players have to accept that randomly a boss can drop in and kill them just off top because reasons- a boss they cannot avoid.  Like,  that's the biggest problem, the wolf is completely unavoidable. If you don't wanna deal with stalker more than once in a blue moon, you don't have to do bosses. If you don't wanna deal with G3 or zanuka you don't have to do invasions. If you don't wanna do the wolf? Tough crap. Hope the RNG favors you and he doesn't show up. 

Yes, it's only one revive. I get that. But again- Warframe ain't the easiest game to get into cold, and the wolf ain't helping. 

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

Yeah, but think like a new player with no options to A) not get invaded and B) kill the wolf- at least not in a reasonable amount of time (I'm sure with enough time and effort a really good  new player with a mk.1 weapon could down him, but I suspect it'd be pretty dicey). Are you going to play a game that just randomly drops an unkillable boss mob on you, or are you gonna drop it to go play any of a dozen other offerings? It's fair progression to not be able to hack certain missions or nodes or bosses, that's fine. It's not fine when  new players have to accept that randomly a boss can drop in and kill them just off top because reasons- a boss they cannot avoid.  Like,  that's the biggest problem, the wolf is completely unavoidable. If you don't wanna deal with stalker more than once in a blue moon, you don't have to do bosses. If you don't wanna deal with G3 or zanuka you don't have to do invasions. If you don't wanna do the wolf? Tough crap. Hope the RNG favors you and he doesn't show up. 

Yes, it's only one revive. I get that. But again- Warframe ain't the easiest game to get into cold, and the wolf ain't helping. 

 

I did deal with a tough boss for ages, so did everyone else. Stalker in the old days was scary not the fluffy kitten he is now. The wolf is avoidable on all but defense missions, you can extract if you're not geared to deal with him, which by the way was not an option vs Stalker since he locked you in. You say you could avoid stalker by not killing bosses. In the old starchart, you either killed bosses or you didn't have access to the next planet. So it blocked progression not killing bosses. Nobody complained back then.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Zilchy

[(PSN)Zero_029]

40 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Well again I just don't feel like he's supposed to be easy for new players and I applaud DE for making a random assassin that actually provides a fight. When I was but a young tenno I used to get my ass handed to me by stalker before I levelled up a bit and got decent weaponry. The same applies here.

You really hate New Players...

Look, I haven't called for him to be easy to kill. He should be killable with Skill.
Regular Stalker (somehow) never managed to kill me he came close a few times. Unlike Shadow Stalker who...I don't even know...Stalker hit his head or at a Forma & never ranked up...

Anyways, the Hek saw me through my first Stalker encounter. But one thing I grew to love about fighting him was that it was a battle of skill & reflex.
The Wolf is NEITHER of these. He is a giant gear check. A very SPECIFIC gear check.
You cannot "dodge" the wolf as he has abilities that suck you in even if you "dodge" it.
Outside of that he just stands there & eats ammo.

I'm not saying Newbies should be guaranteed to defeat him. I'm saying that they need to have a "fair chance" at fighting him.
Otherwise he is a guaranteed mission failed.
They have no way to opt-out of being jumped by him, many of them can't even mod for Radiation let alone rank up the mods high enough for the rad damage to actually do damage.

You're logic is: When he spawns they should already have their loadouts ready for him or just lay down & die.
Eventually they'll be geared enough to fight him. (Except he's a limited time only Assassin...so he'll be gone before they can actually deal with him.)

I just want his encounter designed to be better.

Side Note:
Warframe really needs to try to retain players. The beginning is atrocious enough, not sure an unstoppable juggernaut is helping.

Edited April 13, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029

[Paradoxity]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

I did deal with a tough boss for ages, so did everyone else. Stalker in the old days was scary not the fluffy kitten he is now. The wolf is avoidable on all but defense missions, you can extract if you're not geared to deal with him, which by the way was not an option vs Stalker since he locked you in. You say you could avoid stalker by not killing bosses. In the old starchart, you either killed bosses or you didn't have access to the next planet. So it blocked progression not killing bosses. Nobody complained back then.

Stalker in the old days was never scary- in the old days, he couldn't purge abilities, and when he got that ability, we all had weapons that shredded him. See how that works? The 'old days' don't matter anymore, the game isn't the same as when we picked it up. The wolf isn't good design at all, regardless of if you can kill him in 30  seconds with a meta gun or not, simply because he is an unavoidable boss that can drop in to any mission at any time in a game that already doesn't explain S#&$. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

2 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

because he is an unavoidable boss that can drop in to any mission at any time in a game that already doesn't explain S#&$

Thank you for the laugh.

I really laughed hard cause...Wolf literally just howls...

I can see players now being like:
"WTF?!"
Aahwooo!
"What do you want from me?!"
aawoooo!!!
"OMG...why won't you die?!"
woof! woof! aaaaaahhhhwwwooooo!
"I hate this game..."

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

You really hate New Players...

Look, I haven't called for him to be easy to kill. He should be killable with Skill.
Regular Stalker (somehow) never managed to kill me he came close a few times. Unlike Shadow Stalker who...I don't even know...Stalker hit his head or at a Forma & never ranked up...

Anyways, the Hek saw me through my first Stalker encounter. But one thing I grew to love about fighting him was that it was a battle of skill & reflex.
The Wolf is NEITHER of these. He is a giant gear check. A very SPECIFIC gear check.
You cannot "dodge" the wolf as he has abilities that suck you in even if you "dodge" it.
Outside of that he just stands there & eats ammo.

I'm not saying Newbies should be guaranteed to defeat him. I'm saying that they need to have a "fair chance" at fighting him.
Otherwise he is a guaranteed mission failed.
They have no way to opt-out of being jumped by him, many of them can't even mod for Radiation let alone rank up the mods high enough for the rad damage to actually do damage.

You're logic is: When he spawns they should already have their loadouts ready for him or just lay down & die.
Eventually they'll be geared enough to fight him. (Except he's a limited time only Assassin...so he'll be gone before they can actually deal with him.)

I just want his encounter designed to be better.

No no, I don't hate new players. I hate ENTITLED new players. I don't see why everybody should be capable of beating all content in the game right after they start playing, in a game designed for long grind. He is not a mission failed, he is 1 rievive gone, that's all. Unless it's a defense mission. 

He spawns rarely, it's not like he's ruining every second mission for them. 

[Renegade343]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Regular Stalker (somehow) never managed to kill me he came close a few times. Unlike Shadow Stalker who...I don't even know...Stalker hit his head or at a Forma & never ranked up...

Anyways, the Hek saw me through my first Stalker encounter. But one thing I grew to love about fighting him was that it was a battle of skill & reflex.

Well, I found out that it was a case of rolling around in a good quantity when fighting Stalker pre-Second Dream. Seems to mess up his aiming somewhat.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

Stalker in the old days was never scary- in the old days, he couldn't purge abilities, and when he got that ability, we all had weapons that shredded him. See how that works? The 'old days' don't matter anymore, the game isn't the same as when we picked it up. The wolf isn't good design at all, regardless of if you can kill him in 30  seconds with a meta gun or not, simply because he is an unavoidable boss that can drop in to any mission at any time in a game that already doesn't explain S#&$. 

So by your logic, players have the right to be more entitled these days? That's what it sounds like. He is avoidable in all but defense missions, he doesn't lock you in, you can choose to extract.

[Paradoxity]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Thank you for the laugh.

I really laughed hard cause...Wolf literally just howls...

I can see players now being like:
"WTF?!"
Aahwooo!
"What do you want from me?!"
aawoooo!!!
"OMG...why won't you die?!"
woof! woof! aaaaaahhhhwwwooooo!
"I hate this game..."

Heh. It is a pretty funny image, though I do worry that the last line there is probably all too real as-is and the wolf ain't helping any. 

[(XBOX)GorgonKratos97]

1 minute ago, Zilchy said:

No no, I don't hate new players. I hate ENTITLED new players. I don't see why everybody should be capable of beating all content in the game right after they start playing, in a game designed for long grind. He is not a mission failed, he is 1 rievive gone, that's all. Unless it's a defense mission. 

He spawns rarely, it's not like he's ruining every second mission for them. 

Exactly

[Paradoxity]

59 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

So by your logic, players have the right to be more entitled these days? That's what it sounds like. He is avoidable in all but defense missions, he doesn't lock you in, you can choose to extract.

Define 'entitled' cos that gets thrown around an awful lot. Do I think players should be able to do missions and grind through the star chart without having to deal with an unavoidable boss they not only can't deal with under normal circumstances and cannot deal with even if they 'prepare' because they lack the means to, so they simply must accept that they can have a blown mission any time this dude shows up- which could be once in a blue moon, or could be four times a day (or more in theory, since his appearance is totally random so far as we know). 

If he was a boss on Sedna or some new planet in the star chart- Ultima Thule or Orcus or Haumea or something- I would absolutely agree that no, he should not be capable of being killed by anyone. He's not. Hell if he was a boss  on his own node, I would agree. Again, he's not. 

[BeldarTheBrave]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

I had him spawn at level 30 and dropped him in 2 shots with Rubico. In that vid it took a bit longer but I didn't have the best setup on that rubico, I had primed cryo rounds instead of hellfire so less radiation damage which is very telling. I usually kill him in a few clips. Headshots matter a lot.

Honestly, this explains a lot. Damage reduction and armor don't scale linearly. I'm talking about when I see him usualy between levels 60 and 75. There is no two shotting him then. The different in damage reduction he gets between level 71 and 72 is larger than his entire armor value up to 30 (if I read the table correctly.)

I've seen him as low as level 41 with a full group, and he was merely an annoyance and a dull fight. At level 70 or higher he can literally take 15 minutes of continuous fire before going down. 

The way he scales, and armor scaling in general, his so broken it's hilarious. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Paradoxity said:

Define 'entitled' cos that gets thrown around an awful lot. Do I think players should be able to do missions and grind through the star chart without having to deal with an unavoidable boss they not only can't deal with under normal circumstances and cannot deal with even if they 'prepare' because they lack the means to, so they simply must accept that they can have a blown mission any time this dude shows up- which could be once in a blue moon, or could be four times a day (or more in theory, since his appearance is totally random so far as we know). 

If he was a boss on Sedna or some new planet in the star chart- Ultima Thule or Orcus or Haumea or something- I would absolutely agree that no, he should not be capable of being killed by anyone. He's not. Hell if he was a boss  on his own node, I would agree. Again, he's not. 

I had to do the same thing with Stalker as I said before and I never once thought the game was bad because of it, I actually looked forward to the time I could finally kill the bas%&*d. Also I'm fairly certain we're going to get him as part of the Jupiter rework, either as a boss on his own or partnered with Alad V. But I just don't see the real issue right now, unless it's a defense mission, it's not a blown mission, it's one revive lost. That's nothing.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, BeldarTheBrave said:

Honestly, this explains a lot. Damage reduction and armor don't scale linearly. I'm talking about when I see him usualy between levels 60 and 75. There is no two shotting him then. The different in damage reduction he gets between level 71 and 72 is larger than his entire armor value up to 30 (if I read the table correctly.)

I've seen him as low as level 41 with a full group, and he was merely an annoyance and a dull fight. At level 70 or higher he can literally take 15 minutes of continuous fire before going down. 

The way he scales, and armor scaling in general, his so broken it's hilarious. 

I posted a video on the other page taking him down at level 60 in about 45 seconds. I imagine if you didn't strip his armour then yes, shooting him through 1700 alloy armour would be a pain. As a comparison, a Hydrolyst has 1700 robotic armour. We strip that back to about 5% or 85 robotic armour. Then hydrolyst has 200 alloy armour. So essentially you're shooting the limbs off a hydrolyst once you strip his armour and if you don't you're trying to shoot through 8 times the armour value of a Hydrolyst limb.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Zilchy

[BeldarTheBrave]

7 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

I posted a video on the other page taking him down at level 60 in about 45 seconds. I imagine if you didn't strip his armour then yes, shooting him through 1700 alloy armour would be a pain. As a comparison, a Hydrolyst has 1700 robotic armour. We strip that back to about 5% or 85 robotic armour. Then hydrolyst has 200 alloy armour. So essentially you're shooting the limbs off a hydrolyst once you strip his armour and if you don't you're trying to shoot through 8 times the armour value of a Hydrolyst limb.

You are listing base unmodified armor values. That isn't how armor works for enemies that appear at various levels, it drastically scales upwards with level. If you are interested, look up the Armor entry on the wiki.

Yes, you can strip his armor away at level 60 or higher. But his armor value is still far greater than 200. The higher the level the target is, the less value a given percentage of their armor being reduced is.

I'm not saying there is no value in stripping his armor. I'm saying that it isn't enough value to be at all worth the average player bringing a specific set up for a randomly appearing enemy to every mission. No offense intended to the coders at DE, but it's a pretty poorly designed enemy on top of a poorly functioning armor scaling system.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, BeldarTheBrave said:

You are listing base unmodified armor values. That isn't how armor works for enemies that appear at various levels, it drastically scales upwards with level. If you are interested, look up the Armor entry on the wiki.

Yes, you can strip his armor away at level 60 or higher. But his armor value is still far greater than 200. The higher the level the target is, the less value a given percentage of their armor being reduced is.

I'm not saying there is no value in stripping his armor. I'm saying that it isn't enough value to be at all worth the average player bringing a specific set up for a randomly appearing enemy to every mission. No offense intended to the coders at DE, but it's a pretty poorly designed enemy on top of a poorly functioning armor scaling system.

Fair enough. Oh well, he still dies pretty quickly.

[mrbubblepants]

I find the best way to deal with him is to quit mission. Lol. I cant stand him, and I refuse to run around geared for him because it takes away the fun of using different setups to help fight off stagnation. DE neads to put the wolf down and bury him in the backyard already.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

Fair enough. Oh well, he still dies pretty quickly.

He dies quickly to Veteran players.

I mean no offense Zilchy but you seem to be unable to put yourself in others shoes.
I'm kind of glad all the newbies I've been teaching have kept my eyes open to things that I had forgotten about/failed to notice anymore.

To us he using our main loadouts he dies quickly. But you need to remember that we are not even consider normal players.
Most Warframe veterans are in a league of their own.
While it is nice DE has made him something that we have to think about/see as a threat.
It completely ruins him for the rest of the playerbase.

Average/Normal players are essentially ineffective against him.
The majority do not have Archgun access, they do not have the weaponry (Meta Weapons) nor setup to handle him.

Him being tough as nails is 100% A-OK for me. (I've wanted Stalker buffed into a Boss that literally kicks the players ass, like I once in feedback detailed everything move by move, how it's balanced via in game mechanics, and etc. Leaving us feeling battered & bruised, even if we win. This way when he spawns the player knows it's about to get real. Even if a Team he'd be taken seriously.)
But he needs to be approachable, and beatable.
He's scaled improperly currently & for a temporary boss with an absolutely HORRIBLE loot pool he is basically punishment. I dare say an "out of season April Fools joke."
I have killed him (pre-Amalgam) 8 times & he has only dropped crap. I swear he once dropped resources. I swear on my life he did. I seriously hope to NEVER encounter him because he is a waste of ammo, time, & effort as far as I am concerned.

But to the average player he is a juggernaut & while they can flee, him & his posse give chase & make the mission a living hell. Most of em just abort now inflicting host migrations on the other players.

He needs to be approachable, and beatable via skill. He needs to be a manner of sponge given how Warframe dps & combat is but right now he is out of control.

I'm seriously not joking but the newbies I know literally all just restart missions when he spawns. Considering he's the "event" atm he should be something people WANT to fight, something people want to encounter, something players like playing with.
Right now he is literally the opposite of all that.

I'm sick of him because I don't need noob/starter/basic mods. I have plenty. Too many.
He might as well drop Ammo Drum & Vitality at this point.

Edit:
Ugh...I feel full of myself writing this. haha.

Edited April 13, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

7 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

This is why you have to take ;

• Primary / Secondary weapon with crit + radiation.
• Kavat with Sharpened Claws mod.
• High impact melee with Shattering Impact mod. 

with you to beat him when he spawns. Fugitives are affected by any form of CC , shouldn't be hard to lock them down. All frames have many forms of CC abilities with few exceptions.

It simply needs impact damage, I recommend speed & range, shaku is great will clear his armor in seconds. The issue here is just like Edilons, if you strip him completely he loses his armors weaknesses. 

[Xzorn]

It's just a trash boss. Claim any way you want to kill him but there's no excuse for such bad design.

Pre-Nerf Wolf - I moved left a little. Does that count as fighting?

 

[VentiGlondi]

9 hours ago, Zilchy said:

So by your logic, players have the right to be more entitled these days? That's what it sounds like. He is avoidable in all but defense missions, he doesn't lock you in, you can choose to extract.

Entitled to what exactly? Not having to deal with the game randomly dropping a gear check on them?

[Tellakey]

DE amazes me with every poor design choice they make. Like... did you seriously not see this issue coming?

[Test-995]

Random raid boss encounter is great idea, i love it.

[ABalazs]

I had one game where I leveled up some frame when I got the stalker, and than the wolf a minute later. I had no chance, the game just killed me 2 times without any chance. I am pretty low level anyways, and the game forces me to lurk on low level missions with a single weapon, then slaughters me regularly, because... reasons. I guess nobody wants to easy mode everything, but randomly drop an invincible enemy on low level solo grinding players heads is intentional humiliation. I can translate this as a message from the developers: "We don't want u to have fun with this game." This is cristal clear I guess.

[Iludra]

You people are so lucky. I've seen Mr Wolf once so far, and I play a lot. I even tried to bait him by going with freshly forma'ed frames and crappy weapons into popular leveling spots, but he must have been scared of my badass operator, cause all we've met is some syndicate death squads.