Mr 27 complaining about trade chat

[Aksad]

8 minutes ago, Amoral_Support said:

You and other like minded folks can always form a trade union. Stock pile rank three Arcanes and then sell them at 1p each. Undercut unethical capitalist pig dogs and if you market yourselves well enough completely tank the market. Its not like DE is going to play the part of government and stop you from doing that. Seriously start stock pilling Arcanes and sell them for next to nothing. 

Please do. You'd only be helping your disdained "undercutters" IMMENSELY. You realize that right? Predatory pricing and collusion rarely work. Those things would be snatched up in an instant, and not affect the market value at all. The "capitalist pig dogs" would be grateful.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Nightingale589 said:

Let me prefice this by saying this is one of my first forum posts so please bare with me. I am an avid eidolon hunter and quite enjoy the rewards that they give out. Ive done over 1000 hydrolyst captures and have had many good experiences with them. Arcanes are my main source of platinum but as of recent ive been discouraged from hunting as many people who i would sell my arcanes to will just stock pile them and then sell the rank 3 arcane for over 2 times what it would cost to buy unranked ones. This is not an isolated incident you can see many people buying graces for 120p and in the same day selling a rank 3 for 2000p. They have completely circumvented the "eidolon grind" the fix to this issue would not be easy but i think the "eidolon hunting community" needs to think of something

As fellow MR 27, what's the problem? People buy parts to complete sets to sell off for profit all the time.

And it really doesn't "circumvent eidolon farming" there's alot if reason to do eidolons aside from arcanes. Quills rep, sentient cores, amps, articula, slash and impact mods.

[dreadgame]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Nightingale589 said:

Imagine telling a new player they can earn 10s of thosands of platinum if they camp trade chat to buy r0 arcanes to sell r3. Realistically even fewer people would stick with the game 

Either way takes time and effort. Trade chat is a pain to some people who prefer to kill eidolons instead, while some don't have the net stability / patience / equipment / time to do efficient farming. Either way you go are valid options and anyone can switch between the two depending on factors on their end. I think your problem is placing too much importance to a task completed by hundreds/thousands of people in a day anyway and multiple times. 

[Amoral_Support]

Yeah i understand your position. Thats certainly a concern if you dont make more people aware that your group exists and will absolutely sell them what they want for significantly less than what other people are selling? What are other Tenno going to do if people make a concerted organized effort to sell highly demanded gear for next to nothing? Sure they can buy rank 3 arcanes and sell them i get that. Its not like there arent enough people who obsessively grind Tridolons and already have more platinum than god. Personally i think itd be #*!%ing hilarious to tank the value of say....Arcane Guardian?

[Aksad]

4 minutes ago, Amoral_Support said:

Yeah i understand your position. Thats certainly a concern if you dont make more people aware that your group exists and will absolutely sell them what they want for significantly less than what other people are selling? What are other Tenno going to do if people make a concerted organized effort to sell highly demanded gear for next to nothing? Sure they can buy rank 3 arcanes and sell them i get that. Its not like there arent enough people who obsessively grind Tridolons and already have more platinum than god. Personally i think itd be #*!%ing hilarious to tank the value of say....Arcane Guardian?

Arcanes are crazy high, no 2 ways around it. It's because no one wants to hunt eidolons anymore, so the price surged even more when Fortuna was released. There is a certain logic to your idea, but it can't be accomplished in a matter as simple as accumulating a lot of 'item x' and selling it below market value later on. The majority supply of the item needs to be in the hands of one entity (a monopoly, basically) if they want to manipulate the market. The time/resources/manpower required makes it impractical to pursue. Even then, the process is slow. It would be a gradual decline instead of an instantaneous tanking of value. The only time value 'tanks' is when the demand for it is sharply reduced or nearly eliminated. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see lower prices for arcanes. But as a scarcer resource, that's just the way it is. If OP farms eidolons as much as he says, it's his own fault if he's upset over resellers when he could be stocking his arcanes until they're maxed out. He wouldn't be posting here if more plat was in his hands, promise. 

Maybe I'm a filthy capitalist, but marketframe is half the game to me. I enjoy the unique challenges it provides in the quest for platinum gains. 

[zoffmode]

2 hours ago, Aksad said:

Reselling maintains the sell value of the item vs the buy value. You are correct to say that in a free trade environment, individuals who flip bought goods don't provide any "value or service" to others, but they do provide a function to an economy while making a fair profit for themselves.

To that logic though, one might argue that they indirectly provide the service of price stability to sellers. The buyers take on an inherent risk by buying goods with the intent of resale for later profit, and the seller of the item gets plat at an agreed upon price. I think calling them "scum of scum" might be a little harsh, but I understand the frustrations of seeing others profit using your own goods.

The issue in video games is that there's is no inherent risk. Product doesn't spoil. You don't take responsibility for stuff you're reselling. You don't worry about storage or delivery method. What you're talking about makes sense in real world scenarios. It's really weak in video games.

Price stability would be achieved just the same by people buying it faster without seeking to profit from resale. I mean, there's no way to effectively stop reselling and yes it's only natural because profit seeking is natural... doesn't stop me from condemning the practice though. Especially when people are immensely proud of doing this.

[ReaverKane]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Nightingale589 said:

Why would anyone do eidolons then? The people generating the arcanes should be benefiting the most, not the people camping trade chat

Do the hunts, sell the Arcanes at Tier 3... Profit...
Basically you're complaining that you got hasty and greedy, sold the thing for cheap, and now are mad that others had the patience and the smarts to invest into making a T3 and selling it for more. Well, that's on you, not them.

Just save up the Arcanes, tier them up and sell them...

Edited April 21, 2019 by ReaverKane

[Amoral_Support]

Yeah thats cool, It is a game after all. I personally wonder what the effects of organizing labour would have on Marketframe. Its not like any labour movement in a virtual world could be supressed in the same way they were/are in real life. What if we organized the farm lol?

[BeldarTheBrave]

So many of these problems could be solved with even a basic in game auction house.

If people could post items they want to trade for in a shop or items they have to sell, it would normalize the market. 

A big problem right now is how the real value of items is obfuscated by the lack of clarity and open listings. An auction house would normalize the market.

Right now third party sites are doing this to an extent, but most people don't use those sites so it isn't enough to have the right outcome. The lack of an auction house really hurts newbies too because they are more likely to believe the scalpers and scammers in trade chat are giving a good deal.

[Amoral_Support]

29 minutes ago, Aksad said:

Arcanes are crazy high, no 2 ways around it. It's because no one wants to hunt eidolons anymore, so the price surged even more when Fortuna was released. There is a certain logic to your idea, but it can't be accomplished in a matter as simple as accumulating a lot of 'item x' and selling it below market value later on. The majority supply of the item needs to be in the hands of one entity (a monopoly, basically) if they want to manipulate the market. The time/resources/manpower required makes it impractical to pursue. Even then, the process is slow. It would be a gradual decline instead of an instantaneous tanking of value. The only time value 'tanks' is when the demand for it is sharply reduced or nearly eliminated. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see lower prices for arcanes. But as a scarcer resource, that's just the way it is. If OP farms eidolons as much as he says, it's his own fault if he's upset over resellers when he could be stocking his arcanes until they're maxed out. He wouldn't be posting here if more plat was in his hands, promise. 

Maybe I'm a filthy capitalist, but marketframe is half the game to me. I enjoy the unique challenges it provides in the quest for platinum gains. 

Sorry see my above comment, thus is my first time commenting in the forums.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Amoral_Support

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

23 minutes ago, BeldarTheBrave said:

So many of these problems could be solved with even a basic in game auction house.

If people could post items they want to trade for in a shop or items they have to sell, it would normalize the market. 

A big problem right now is how the real value of items is obfuscated by the lack of clarity and open listings. An auction house would normalize the market.

Right now third party sites are doing this to an extent, but most people don't use those sites so it isn't enough to have the right outcome. The lack of an auction house really hurts newbies too because they are more likely to believe the scalpers and scammers in trade chat are giving a good deal.

No. The end. 

[BeldarTheBrave]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No. The end. 

Not exactly a very insightful response. Why do you believe that a marketplace with transparent pricing would not stabilize the currently absurd pricing with arcanes and rivens? What is your killing blow to that argument?

I personally don't care because I don't use rivens or arcanes and it's unlikely that I will unless a nice one falls into my lap. None of it is worth the effort, let alone paying 4k plat for one.

However, a stable economy would benefit consumers, especially newer ones with less understanding of how the game works. The current system, or lack thereof, very much favors price gouging and ripping off new people.

This isn't like a real world economy, so there is no reason to treat it like one.

[FlyingDice]

3 hours ago, zoffmode said:

The issue in video games is that there's is no inherent risk. Product doesn't spoil. You don't take responsibility for stuff you're reselling. You don't worry about storage or delivery method. What you're talking about makes sense in real world scenarios. It's really weak in video games.

This is false. Game markets are inherently volatile whenever the game state is in flux (i.e. in any game that is still receiving updates and/or balance patches). If you pay out a bunch of currency working towards building a maxed arcane, buy a R0 primed mod to fill and sell, buy most of a vaulted prime set today, and tomorrow that arcane gets nerfed/an increased drop rate, that primed mod pops up in Baro's rotation, that prime gets nerfed or unvaulted, &c., your product has devalued.

The risk is worse because it's largely unpredictable. Perishable and time-sensitive products IRL tend to have fairly predictable life cycles. Real world markets are heavily studied and documented -- there's a wealth of data predicting how they behave. Traders in gaming markets don't have that, and on top of that the forces behind market shifts are almost wholly opaque right up to the point where changes are made.

On top of that, you're paying trade fees on every transaction, which means that even if you manage to dump a crashing investment at the same price you purchased it for you still eat a loss. More frequently, you can't dump items in that situation at all, since the two major factors behind item prices crashing are nerfs and reintroduction, both of which heavily discourage others from purchasing regardless of what the price is, since the item is either undesirable, easy to acquire without paying, or likely to be available for a fraction of the current price in the near future. Look at how Maiming Strike and Argon Scope crashed when we had a couple Acolyte visits in a row. Everyone who was trying to flip them and didn't manage to dump their stock before news of the event disseminated ate hundreds or thousands of plat in losses.

You're trading in what are effectively physical products that behave like medium/high-risk stocks.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, BeldarTheBrave said:

Not exactly a very insightful response. Why do you believe that a marketplace with transparent pricing would not stabilize the currently absurd pricing with arcanes and rivens? What is your killing blow to that argument?

I personally don't care because I don't use rivens or arcanes and it's unlikely that I will unless a nice one falls into my lap. None of it is worth the effort, let alone paying 4k plat for one.

However, a stable economy would benefit consumers, especially newer ones with less understanding of how the game works. The current system, or lack thereof, very much favors price gouging and ripping off new people.

This isn't like a real world economy, so there is no reason to treat it like one.

The forum has a search function. Your suggestion is neither new nor any better than all of the identical posts that have been made on the topic. Take some time to read what was said instead of just saying the same thing over and over again:

 

The same factors that drive real world economies affect in game ones. It's why real world economists study video game economies. 

Believe it or not our economy is relatively stable already. The proposed system would significantly increase supply while not impacting demand in a similar way. This will cause a decrease in the value of the items that you are hoping to sell. 

Personally I don't care if you don't care about rivens. I care that the economy doesn't get tanked because of the incessant demand for something that will damage it by people who don't grasp basic economic issues. You haven't even figured out that rivens are the one thing with a price that probably won't go down in flames with the rest of the economy. It's because good rivens are very rare and each is unique so there aren't truly any comparable items and that means that the only limit is "what's the buyer willing to pay". I don't have much use for rivens either, but I am not using that to justify crashing the economy. 

And since you are going to try "but it's the same thing warframe.market does" yes, and apparently that had an impact on prices that matches what I've said here. 

So again: No. The end. 

[(PSN)Ryfore2]

I'm most interested in the fact he says arcane grace is 120p on XB1. on PS4 you can't sell them over 60p. Even energize is in free fall now capping around 90p unless you really hold out...

[AmuletOfVigor]

16 hours ago, (XB1)Nightingale589 said:

Imagine telling a new player they can earn 10s of thosands of platinum if they camp trade chat to buy r0 arcanes to sell r3. Realistically even fewer people would stick with the game 

This isnt the case at all. In any player driven market I've been a part of very few people enjoy flipping because they cant experience the game. Also you have to have a high starting point of platinum to start (1.2k may not seem like too much to more experienced players but newer or even free to play it's quite a bit). Naturally people are going to play the game how they want, looking at you limbo mains that put me in the void while I'm hacking a console, which leads to many aspects of a game people can enjoy. If a new player loves the economy aspect and making boat loads of platinum or trading they will likely look towards flipping because it's easy and efficient to do.

[(XBOX)Nightingale589]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Ryfore2 said:

I'm most interested in the fact he says arcane grace is 120p on XB1. on PS4 you can't sell them over 60p. Even energize is in free fall now capping around 90p unless you really hold out...

Cant even get a color pallette with 60p feels bad

[AshenHaze]

Honestly why is there even a trade chat? IT just gets flooded with plat-farming bots anyway. There should be more systems that allow an open barter system or perhaps just more ease-of-use with going back and forth to trade on forums. Maybe even a secondary system entirely like some form of auction house. 

I'd rather have a general player-run store rather than whatever the heck trade chat is supposed to be. There are so many posts per second that it's nearly impossible to read something anyway...

[SteelOverseer666]

12 minutes ago, AshenHaze said:

Honestly why is there even a trade chat? IT just gets flooded with plat-farming bots anyway. There should be more systems that allow an open barter system or perhaps just more ease-of-use with going back and forth to trade on forums. Maybe even a secondary system entirely like some form of auction house. 

I'd rather have a general player-run store rather than whatever the heck trade chat is supposed to be. There are so many posts per second that it's nearly impossible to read something anyway...

Thats why there is a filter function.

"I dont know how to use trade chat so it should just be removed"

Yeah ok then

[AshenHaze]

14 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

Thats why there is a filter function.

"I dont know how to use trade chat so it should just be removed"

Yeah ok then

T. tradebot

[BeldarTheBrave]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The forum has a search function. Your suggestion is neither new nor any better than all of the identical posts that have been made on the topic. Take some time to read what was said instead of just saying the same thing over and over again:

 

The same factors that drive real world economies affect in game ones. It's why real world economists study video game economies. 

Believe it or not our economy is relatively stable already. The proposed system would significantly increase supply while not impacting demand in a similar way. This will cause a decrease in the value of the items that you are hoping to sell. 

Personally I don't care if you don't care about rivens. I care that the economy doesn't get tanked because of the incessant demand for something that will damage it by people who don't grasp basic economic issues. You haven't even figured out that rivens are the one thing with a price that probably won't go down in flames with the rest of the economy. It's because good rivens are very rare and each is unique so there aren't truly any comparable items and that means that the only limit is "what's the buyer willing to pay". I don't have much use for rivens either, but I am not using that to justify crashing the economy. 

And since you are going to try "but it's the same thing warframe.market does" yes, and apparently that had an impact on prices that matches what I've said here. 

So again: No. The end. 

I know it would virtually increase supply by making it far easier to view large volumes of items and shop for the best prices. I know this. I know it would tank prices. That is what I believe would be the ideal situation. We are talking about virtual items that have no practical real world use. Any economy an auction house would crash has no more implicit value than a Monopoly board game set.

Any "harm" here is entirely virtual and would only occur to people who are selling these virtual items at inflated prices. As a person who is interested in playing the game and not spending time pretending to be a Corpus, I'm perfectly fine with that outcome. More players having access to items used to enjoy the game at more reasonable prices is nothing but positive.

Also, telling me the discussion is over about a common topic on a public forum is not going to be effective. Others have mentioned it before, I mentioned it now, and others will mention it again.

[sleepychewbacca]

38 minutes ago, BeldarTheBrave said:

I know it would virtually increase supply by making it far easier to view large volumes of items and shop for the best prices. I know this. I know it would tank prices. That is what I believe would be the ideal situation. We are talking about virtual items that have no practical real world use. Any economy an auction house would crash has no more implicit value than a Monopoly board game set.

Any "harm" here is entirely virtual and would only occur to people who are selling these virtual items at inflated prices. As a person who is interested in playing the game and not spending time pretending to be a Corpus, I'm perfectly fine with that outcome. More players having access to items used to enjoy the game at more reasonable prices is nothing but positive.

Also, telling me the discussion is over about a common topic on a public forum is not going to be effective. Others have mentioned it before, I mentioned it now, and others will mention it again.

Say I'm a whale though, what's stopping me from getting a bot, buying x in bulk at cheap and reselling for higher? In theory that would allow any player with the plat capacity to control a segment of the market. 

That's my concern with AH's or automated selling mechanics. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by sleepychewbacca

[BeldarTheBrave]

16 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Say I'm a whale though, what's stopping me from getting a bot, buying x in bulk at cheap and reselling for higher? In theory that would allow any player with the plat capacity to control a segment of the market. 

That's my concern with AH's or automated selling mechanics. 

Now that is what I wanted people to do. Bring up actually challenges to an auction house system. Yes, this is a valid concern.

Some form of daily or even weekly buy and sell limit would need to be in place. Perhaps with stricter limits on certain categories of items that would be most easily abused.

In addition an "antibot" software system would be in place. Similar systems are already in place. Obviously, this solution is not entirely effective.

[Anduvriel]

Well you are wrong in many aspects of arcanes trade especially energise and grace.

1. 10 rank zero have a trade cost of 10mln creds r3 has one zero less. For a buyer it might be worth to give plat for just that. Convenience buyers hate certain grinds, 2 hours in index.. That alone is a huge added value. 

2. Time is money, and in game its fun lost. When i need to go to a browser, find 10 people go to their dojos and wait, load trade, half wont respond.. I would waste an hour for that 9 additional trades. For people that want to pay for convenience that is huge. Somoene is doing that for me. Great, i can pay for that. 

Dont sell for the price you dont want to sell, i sell for what i think something is worth to me, sometimes it doesnt sell for weeks and i dont care, i buy the same way. Simple, if you think your energise is 190 or 200, not 160 post it for 190, you will sell it eventually just not instantly . Flippers will flip even 20p prime parts, there is absolutely no way you will change that and have an economy. That is the nature of free trade as a process, 100g of trade is worth more than 1kg of production, its a saying in my country. 

An all out auction house in this game, you dont know what you are asking for. Its true it would solve a lot of issues long term and economy would stabilise, but 95% of the stuff in game that has value now would have zero value for a long time, for old wolfes like you or me, i dont care, for new players, horror. People think energise is rare, its not by a long shot, its mediocre. Prime parts.. 10% for a rare lmao.. 10% is common. Trade we now have in this game with the droprates it has is extremely good all things considered. Plat is easily earned, you can get for a decent price everything you need. A good site for rivens, seperate chat for riven trade maybe and we are golden. 

[---.CCC.---TradeFrame]

23 hours ago, (XB1)Nightingale589 said:

Its a video game market. This isnt the real world we don't have 3rd party people pressuring us to sell for cheap. Camping trade chat=/=playing warframe how do we not realize this 

You play warframe the way you want to play. I'll plat tradeframe the way I want to 🤑