Too much whining from Youtubers and players

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

It's about time we call out the whining going on this year. It used to be reasonable but now it feels like the same old, tired recipe of vets, speed runners and addicted gamers triggered. A YouTuber, for example, would post a vid about a content drought while another says there's a lot of new content but it sucks and another would praise it until they're done with it and then bash it. Nightwave went from awesome and "a nice new addition" to "nightwave sucked". Umbral forma, 20k kuva and wolf armor went from "awesome mods"  and "DE is moving in the right direction with rewards" but is now "the rewards could be better". Clan and friend missions received complaints? 60 minute survivals are too much? 10+ weeks is NOT ENOUGH to collect NW rewards despite only needing to do about half of the missions? For some of these Youtubers to be partners, they're doing a lousy job being actual partners. There's a humongous difference between constructive feedback and "I just wanna be controversial". What I'd love to see and hear from the partners is a well detailed idea of what they think things like endgame, rewards and boss fights should be. If umbral forma, arbitration and the Eidolon fights (you know, the boss that people cried about until you posted the strategy and then those same people said was too easy...), then what IS a good reward? What IS a good boss fight? Not bashing anyone but simply giving my own constructive criticism. Most of you went from awesome and funny to the usual cranky old vet ranters from every other great game and I want you guys to refresh yourselves as much as you expect DE to refresh Warframe.

[taiiat]

what is a good Reward? first you'd need to have content that isn't waiting for Timers for Players to really know what a good Reward is.

what's a good Boss? that's the easier one. it's the same answer as it has been for decades. consistent game rules that apply to everybody - meaning Enemies not being immune to Game Mechanics because reasons...... goes a long way.
and plus the content not being just waiting for Timers thing.

[Tellakey]

Congrats, OP, you have discovered the concept of disagreement and discussion. 

[AndouRaiton]

Things for DE to make better boss fights:

- no time-gating, no one likes waiting, let us fight the thing

-no invincibility, having PARTS that are invincible is fine, but not the entire thing, else it just becomes a time gate. If you must then you could have periodic Damage Reduction instead.

-no unnecessary/annoying mechanics (such as lots of knock downs); they annoy the player and reduce the chance of them coming back to fight it again.

-no minions, unless it is the an ability of a boss, so we know it's coming; we came to fight a boss, not an endless army, if we wanted that we would be playing survival.

-no unnecessary running around; boss doesn't teleport to the other side of the map (especially in open worlds); again LET US FIGHT THE THING, small PREDICTABLE movements are fine though

Reddit link for how to make a good boss battle: https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/4lclcm/what_makes_a_good_boss_fight/

As for rewards, that's hard. It needs to be something players want, and probably want multiples of so they come back and fight it again. But one thing is for sure; IT SHOULD NOT BE RNG BASED.

Take for example the assassination targets, Alad V, Vor, and the like are Guaranteed to drop a warframe part, so you have a pretty good shot of getting everything for that warframe in a low amount of fights; minimum of 3. Now take the Assassins, Stalker and the WOLF. Both are nutoriously bad with having low drop chances and no guarantees on getting something good; you might get that Weapon blueprint you've wanted and farmed for the past week OR you could get your 100th Molten Impact mod.

A better idea is to have the boss's RARE drops be condition based; i.e. kill with a certain damage type or in a certain time frame, or without dying, etc, etc. This way it depends ENTIRELY on the players SKILL rather than a random number.

[MagPrime]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

It's about time we call out the whining going on this year. It used to be reasonable but now it feels like the same old, tired recipe of vets, speed runners and addicted gamers triggered.

Welcome to the Forums?

Been here for years, this is standard practice for any new content, update and batch of new players, and calling people out on it wont actually resolve anything - they leave or put you on ignore, and then you have hundreds of more people doing the exact same thing.

[Yakhul]

I liked Nightwave

The Wolf Armor was worth it for me the grind, makes me feel better about my fashionframe, and matches perfectly the fashionframe i had in mind for my frost.

To be honest, you make your own content. If you want to speedrun and clear everything in a single day, that is your choice. I often find those type of ppl to be the ones who complain the most about "content"

As for rewards, i dont think there is a "good reward" Some people will say the rewards are good, but then others will say they are bad cause X Y and Z.

Reaching a middle ground is difficult.

I choose to stay at a slow pace, sure, i do not have all of the shiny new stuff as quick as the others (im looking at you ephemeras) but at least, i have fun in taking everything at my own pace. Clear everything too fast, i get burned out and then find nothing to do. Clear too slow, i fall behind, so im right in the middle.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

27 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

Things for DE to make better boss fights:

- no time-gating, no one likes waiting, let us fight the thing

-no invincibility, having PARTS that are invincible is fine, but not the entire thing, else it just becomes a time gate. If you must then you could have periodic Damage Reduction instead.

-no unnecessary/annoying mechanics (such as lots of knock downs); they annoy the player and reduce the chance of them coming back to fight it again.

-no minions, unless it is the an ability of a boss, so we know it's coming; we came to fight a boss, not an endless army, if we wanted that we would be playing survival.

-no unnecessary running around; boss doesn't teleport to the other side of the map (especially in open worlds); again LET US FIGHT THE THING, small PREDICTABLE movements are fine though

Reddit link for how to make a good boss battle: https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/4lclcm/what_makes_a_good_boss_fight/

As for rewards, that's hard. It needs to be something players want, and probably want multiples of so they come back and fight it again. But one thing is for sure; IT SHOULD NOT BE RNG BASED.

Take for example the assassination targets, Alad V, Vor, and the like are Guaranteed to drop a warframe part, so you have a pretty good shot of getting everything for that warframe in a low amount of fights; minimum of 3. Now take the Assassins, Stalker and the WOLF. Both are nutoriously bad with having low drop chances and no guarantees on getting something good; you might get that Weapon blueprint you've wanted and farmed for the past week OR you could get your 100th Molten Impact mod.

A better idea is to have the boss's RARE drops be condition based; i.e. kill with a certain damage type or in a certain time frame, or without dying, etc, etc. This way it depends ENTIRELY on the players SKILL rather than a random number.

Excellent suggestions!!

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

what is a good Reward? first you'd need to have content that isn't waiting for Timers for Players to really know what a good Reward is.

what's a good Boss? that's the easier one. it's the same answer as it has been for decades. consistent game rules that apply to everybody - meaning Enemies not being immune to Game Mechanics because reasons...... goes a long way.
and plus the content not being just waiting for Timers thing.

Would you prefer all boss fights to follow that format or a mix up?

[-AiLuoLi-]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

It's about time we call out the whining going on this year. It used to be reasonable but now it feels like the same old, tired recipe of vets, speed runners, addicted gamers and casuals who doesn't want vets to have fun triggered.

Fixed that for you.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 minutes ago, TheBestNapkin said:

I liked Nightwave

The Wolf Armor was worth it for me the grind, makes me feel better about my fashionframe, and matches perfectly the fashionframe i had in mind for my frost.

To be honest, you make your own content. If you want to speedrun and clear everything in a single day, that is your choice. I often find those type of ppl to be the ones who complain the most about "content"

As for rewards, i dont think there is a "good reward" Some people will say the rewards are good, but then others will say they are bad cause X Y and Z.

Reaching a middle ground is difficult.

I choose to stay at a slow pace, sure, i do not have all of the shiny new stuff as quick as the others (im looking at you ephemeras) but at least, i have fun in taking everything at my own pace. Clear everything too fast, i get burned out and then find nothing to do. Clear too slow, i fall behind, so im right in the middle.

This is my exact same play style. Completed NW today and felt like it was a cool addition, lore add and reward system that was worth my time. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 minutes ago, -AiLuoLi- said:

Fixed that for you.

Nah...but good try. 

[taiiat]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Would you prefer all boss fights to follow that format or a mix up?

of not being immune to Game Mechanics? 100%.

there's no Creative or Gameplay limitations in going that route. so..... everything is mixed up to begin with then. you can actually fight the Boss in different ways rather than you just stand around and wait for a Timer and then click once and wait for the next Timer because the Boss is immune to basically the entire game.
and if it's going to be immune to everything, what's even the point of the game.
most of the Bosses in the game straight up convert the game into basically Call of Duty. move from A to B while you either wait for Timers or click on irrelevant Enemies.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

of not being immune to Game Mechanics? 100%.

there's no Creative or Gameplay limitations in going that route. so..... everything is mixed up to begin with then. you can actually fight the Boss in different ways rather than you just stand around and wait for a Timer and then click once and wait for the next Timer because the Boss is immune to basically the entire game.
and if it's going to be immune to everything, what's even the point of the game.
most of the Bosses in the game straight up convert the game into basically Call of Duty. move from A to B while you either wait for Timers or click on irrelevant Enemies.

Agreed. This is why I think the Eidolon and Wolf fights were big improvements. Yeah, there's still the element of phases but both are never really immune, minus the short burst phase of the eidolons, and the player is never without a means of killing them. A boss can have SOME element of difference but I definitely agree on the immunity and long timers. Thanks for the great idea!

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

I think everyone has their own representation of what is a "good reward"

Personally, I want decorations for my orbiter. But I think a good reward isn't something that is boring.

A Series specific weapon set might be nice, like having an infested primary, secondary, and melee in the Series 2 Nightwave rewards. Kuva is nice, but instead of having it drop multiple times, I think it should drop once, and drop a lot of it. Creds shouldn't be added as a single reward, but added as a reward alongside another reward. 

Augments are also a problem, because if you don't have the weapon for the augment, you're screwed. Having them give us multiple augments as a single reward might be a little bit better, but personally, I don't think augments for specific weapons should be a reward for nightwave. Buying it with Creds? Yeah, but definitely not as a reward. 

I just think they should make the Nightwave rewards more interesting, and give us incentive to actually want to grind for it

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 minute ago, (PS4)PS_90210 said:

I think everyone has their own representation of what is a "good reward"

Personally, I want decorations for my orbiter. But I think a good reward isn't something that is boring.

A Series specific weapon set might be nice, like having an infested primary, secondary, and melee in the Series 2 Nightwave rewards. Kuva is nice, but instead of having it drop multiple times, I think it should drop once, and drop a lot of it. Creds shouldn't be added as a single reward, but added as a reward alongside another reward. 

Augments are also a problem, because if you don't have the weapon for the augment, you're screwed. Having them give us multiple augments as a single reward might be a little bit better, but personally, I don't think augments for specific weapons should be a reward for nightwave. Buying it with Creds? Yeah, but definitely not as a reward. 

I just think they should make the Nightwave rewards more interesting, and give us incentive to actually want to grind for it

 

Agreed...especially the point of players defining ideal rewards differently. I think that's the worst part about the complaints though. You gave your ideal rewards but it's rare to hear someone express that. How could a dev know without examples like yours? Good stuff!

[Kontrollo]

In a nutshell, here's how this works:

Spoiler

 

But I guess this thread is basically a metacomplaint. May want to add something else to discuss, chances are high for these to get locked.

[taiiat]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Agreed. This is why I think the Eidolon and Wolf fights were big improvements.

eh, Eidolons are still immune to the vast majority of all Game Mechanics. and the Wolf practically IS immune to all Game Mechanics.
Profit Taker is a little bit better than Eidolons, by being immune to less Game Mechanics.

better than say, Sargas Ruk, sure - but that's also not setting the bar that high. :p

Edited May 6, 2019 by taiiat

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 minutes ago, taiiat said:

eh, Eidolons are still immune to the vast majority of all Game Mechanics. and the Wolf practically IS immune to all Game Mechanics.
Profit Taker is a little bit better than Eidolons, by being immune to less Game Mechanics.

better than say, Sargas Ruk, sure - but that's also not setting the bar that high. 😛

Lol! True, true...especially good ole Ruk. I guess I don't mind the Eidolon and wolf as much but I see your point. 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

How I agree. There's valid complaints and very fair requests, sure, but most of what I see these days is "This doesn't cater to me personally. Remove it or change it to something I like, or else!". 

See how the community already dissects any given content even before it gets released, on announcement. Somehow we are able to generate criticism based on incomplete data, point out flaws in everything, and get all sorts of solutions for it. For a problem that doesn't even exist yet. And most of these solutions don't even take into account that they must please the general part of the community, and thatis a the biggest challenge when adding new content.

And don't get me started on how some people think Warframe is a job and therefore DE must make the means for them to be able to play 24/7, instead of just taking an effing break and go do something else. Seriously, from youtubers to community in general, this meta-complaint entitled behaviour is pitiful. And it comes both from new, entitled players, to old and bored veterans.

[(PSN)shanncz]

I don't watch those whining much. But Warframe is indeed in some "decline".I play game each year usualy at spring. And this year is somehow "empty". There is no new content, no interesting cutscenes etc. I remember video with Excalibur Umbra and all those theories.

Now we got only Nightwave, there is no proper story, just grind. There is new Equinox prime access but no hype around it, no cutscene. 

I understand DE is working on that Gas city or whatever but I would expect Nightwave to be more polished. From my point of view Nightwave looks like part of F2P-web-game. I would expect some tilesed/mission, more story about Wolf etc.

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by (PS4)shanncz

[FlusteredFerret]

6 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

It's about time we call out the whining going on this year. It used to be reasonable but now it feels like the same old, tired recipe of vets, speed runners and addicted gamers triggered. A YouTuber, for example, would post a vid about a content drought while another says there's a lot of new content but it sucks and another would praise it until they're done with it and then bash it. Nightwave went from awesome and "a nice new addition" to "nightwave sucked". Umbral forma, 20k kuva and wolf armor went from "awesome mods"  and "DE is moving in the right direction with rewards" but is now "the rewards could be better". Clan and friend missions received complaints? 60 minute survivals are too much? 10+ weeks is NOT ENOUGH to collect NW rewards despite only needing to do about half of the missions? For some of these Youtubers to be partners, they're doing a lousy job being actual partners. There's a humongous difference between constructive feedback and "I just wanna be controversial". What I'd love to see and hear from the partners is a well detailed idea of what they think things like endgame, rewards and boss fights should be. If umbral forma, arbitration and the Eidolon fights (you know, the boss that people cried about until you posted the strategy and then those same people said was too easy...), then what IS a good reward? What IS a good boss fight? Not bashing anyone but simply giving my own constructive criticism. Most of you went from awesome and funny to the usual cranky old vet ranters from every other great game and I want you guys to refresh yourselves as much as you expect DE to refresh Warframe.

Admire your sentiments and completely agree. Although you forgot to mention that feedback needs to go in the FEEDBACK section of the forum.

 

However...YouTubers make their careers by being sensationalist jerks and there are so many sheep out there that just lap up every word, or else just live to criticise and complain and whine about everything. Mainly because they're incapable of considering anyone but themselves, or seeing things from the devs' point of view.

 

So they will continue to whine and there's not a whole lot we can do about it...except continue to call them on it and make fun of them. 

 

[o0Despair0o]

You know what the problem with youtubers is these days?

They think they're better than anyone else and people actually believe them.

 

In today's day and age, having a lot of subscribers equals being worshipped as a god. And you know what kind of stupid things people do for something they believe in.

And if one of those Youtubers says something sucks, everyone suddenly agrees, because obviously that keyboard warrior knows better.

 

Which is why everytime I see someone make a thread, linking to one of those mainstream meta-slave youtubers, I can guarantee that that person is incompetent to no end.

God, I miss the old youtube, where you watched cat videos and pre-2014 memes.

[Veridian]

1. Youtube deserves to burn at this point. Worse even, people are making more money than most worthwhile jobs all while being a waste of air.

2. People absorb youtubers attitude like a sponge and proceed to throw tantrums on mediocre issues.

3. When people are thought that they are special and unique they start overevaluating their oppinion and confusing it for fact, along with thinking that somehow a mass product should cater to their personal whim.

4. We in times where if complaining was an olympic sport, there'd be a good 1 bilion tied for 1st place, it's not exclusive to WF.

5. How bad can a game be, in which I've spent over 800 hrs and I still had enough to do for a 14h marathon?

[Pooroldude]

I'm still waiting for a way to filter relics that are vaulted ingame.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Pooroldude

[Zeclem]

you do realize this thread is just the other side of the coin right? yes, NW is badly made(its getting a fair bit better now for the next part thankfully). content drought is also very real compared to past years. we are already several months in with the only actually decent new content being a fairly crappy bossfight and the frame that it drops, and the "big content drop" of the last year was fortuna which i had to start making up new content after a couple weeks, cus it had nothing in it that could last more than that. game has problems providing repeat worthy content, and while game in general is gaining popularity, it almost always sees a massive drop between updates. that big of a drop just shouldnt happen. but hey, i guess we are just being whiny.