Game is too easy and caters to noobs

[Highresist]

22 minutes ago, Anduvriel said:

solo tridolon capture with banshee and a mote amp.

Why would you ever do that? By that logic Uber Elder is the end of all bosses if you go at it with 0 resistance and a static build that does tickling damage. This argument is so finicky "Eidolon is a great boss if you go at it with the worst setup possible". Well Uber Elder is a great boss if you go at it with the best setup possible, now which feels more rewarding to fight?
 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Highresist

[Anduvriel]

7 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Right because games like Destiny or Borderlands just dont exist, lets pretend so.

Didn't heard "hard endgame", "only for skilled players" attached to those titles. Did i miss something? 

[Autongnosis]

il y a 36 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

Good so you've noticed the Paradox... the Progression Based games are always going to get easier the better your gear becomes...

Not really. Every game based on gear progression uses a variant of the threadmill model where while you get more powerful, what you fight also does. 

Warframe failed in that respect in that we got exponentially more powerful compared to early 2015 but we fight the exact same lv 1-100 enemies. With the exact same gimmicks (invulnerability and ability nullification). 

We were fighting nullifiers and timed bosses with barely 20k DPS Soma and Boltor prime. We fight the exact same things with 2mln DPS guns and 10+mln DPS melees now. I think it's a problem. 

 

On a side note, think about all the latest "challenges"

- Eidola are immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, have innate DR you cannot reduce and are designed around a DPS race. They also are a huge sack of hitpoints that barely pose a threat. 

- Orbmothers are immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, have innate DR you cannot reduce and are designed around a DPS race. They also are a huge sack of hitpoints that barely pose a threat. 

- The wolf is immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, has innate DR you cannot reduce and is designed around a DPS race. He also is a huge sack of hitpoints that barely poses a threat. 

Yes, i copy pasted the paragraphs. Rings a bell? Literally the only thing not fitting that model is Exploiter orb, and it is done so poorly you can ignore it the whole fight and you will still win. What the #*!%? 

[FlusteredFerret]

7 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

How about we just let the game be a power fantasy, as it is meant to be, and just throw in a sign saying "Dark Souls this way" for all the people who complain about difficulty.

Exactly.

The devs made a boo-boo in allowing players to become too powerful, but if they try and roll that back, the amount of REEEEEEEEE would be picked up by orbiting satellites.

So since the uber-cheesers won't accept a reduction in power, they're just going to have to wait until DE figure out other ways of providing an increased challenge, that works within the context of the game.

 

[Altagraive]

People say that but I feel it's the opposite.

I used to jump in, do a bunch of stuff, usually run alerts for helmets and nitain, trade some things back and forth and call it a day. I never felt obliged to do anything.

Now logging in and seeing nightwave and arbitrations just makes my head hurt and I log off without running a single mission.

Game is structured more like a job now, which caters more to hardcore players than to casuals/noobs.

That's my opinion, tell me if you disagree with me.

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

 

I know jack S#&$ about Destiny but isn't  Borderlands just another Grind to kill enemies to get better loot which you use to become better at killing enemies to get even better loot.... etc...

Same with monster hunter.

Is this what you call a challenge ?

 

It is because Borderlands has new game + or ultimate vault hunter mode and even tho its not like dark souls and doesnt go ng++ and so,many find uvh mode exactly that, difficult, it is nothing like first playthrough.

Also getting better loot is called "progression" so idk what youre whining about. Warframe has it for its first hours and how long that is depends on the player, but then it stops.

And Destiny is also anything but "easy" or "noob" friendly especially if you're playing solo or pug it and dont have someoene with 650+ power to carry you through.

Цитата

Didn't heard "hard endgame", "only for skilled players" attached to those titles. Did i miss something? 

Well Destiny IS quite hardcore. Not casual in any point at the very least.

UVH modes for Borderlands are also not for faint hearted either.

Edited May 7, 2019 by -Temp0-

[FlusteredFerret]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You've literally said exactly nothing relevant, here.

Of course content gets easier as you acquire more power. The point is to offer something tougher to test that power against. No, removing my mods doesn't help me test my power. It just helps me test my mechanical knowledge because I have to jump more and aim for headshots more (or use stance knowledge to get guaranteed procs/finishers).

Like it or not, you can test your build's limits against enemies in the couple hundreds of levels. Will there be cheese? Yes. But that's not an excuse not to add this type of content. That exists in literally every medium that offers high level content. Even in Final Fantasy and Pokemon games. If cheese (or, rather, player ingenuity) is your reason for not adding it then why is anything getting added at all?

"Hey, let's add that new game mode to the improved Gas City tile set."
"You know, players will just cheese it."
"You're right... let's not add it then because there's no point if they're just gonna cheese it."

 

4 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Not really. Every game based on gear progression uses a variant of the threadmill model where while you get more powerful, what you fight also does. 

Warframe failed in that respect in that we got exponentially more powerful compared to early 2015 but we fight the exact same lv 1-100 enemies. With the exact same gimmicks (invulnerability and ability nullification). 

We were fighting nullifiers and timed bosses with barely 20k DPS Soma and Boltor prime. We fight the exact same things with 2mln DPS guns and 10+mln DPS melees now. I think it's a problem. 

 

On a side note, think about all the latest "challenges"

- Eidola are immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, have innate DR you cannot reduce and are designed around a DPS race. They also are a huge sack of hitpoints that barely pose a threat. 

- Orbmothers are immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, have innate DR you cannot reduce and are designed around a DPS race. They also are a huge sack of hitpoints that barely pose a threat. 

- The wolf is immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, has innate DR you cannot reduce and is designed around a DPS race. He also is a huge sack of hitpoints that barely poses a threat. 

Yes, i copy pasted the paragraphs. Rings a bell? Literally the only thing not fitting that model is Exploiter orb, and it is done so poorly you can ignore it the whole fight and you will still win. What the #*!%? 

 

Well if you guys have any bright ideas, I'm sure DE would love to hear from you.

 

Seriously - if you can tell them what they should be doing, Tweet them, get posting in Feedback...anything that will get their attention...

 

[Zelmen]

4 hours ago, Psykhe27 said:

From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

• Day 125 > Doesn't mean anything. People who like to fish, mine, hunt or do one round of relics that have no interest in killing high level can get this time
• MR 27 > Doesn't mean anything. Anyone can either trade every day and buy everything. Leveling for MR is a joke. So min time needed with MR tests is 27 days
• Player who can do 4 hour survival > Doesn't mean anything other than you have a lot of free time. Only takes one meta and a few key mods to do that

So clearly you're someone looking to pull rank (literally) to get something. But, some how in all your "wisdom" you failed to post your issue with the game in the correct section of the forums. That is unless you want to start another thread discussing something that has already been posted before. But you know all about the search function so you can contribute to those threads.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

Of course content gets easier as you acquire more power. The point is to offer something tougher to test that power against. 

Uhm.... thats not the issue here .. the issue is you wanted to test your skills. Not your Gear.... if its the formar then we're back to the Paradox. If its the latter then congratulations Warframe already has you covered.... pick any endless mission you like and don't leave.

Simple

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

No, removing my mods doesn't help me test my power. It just helps me test my mechanical knowledge because I have to jump more and aim for headshots more (or use stance knowledge to get guaranteed procs/finishers).

No.... It means you WILL eventually lose because its impossible to completely avoid all damage and you will reach a point where your weapons deal 1 point of damage or less even on head shots.

6 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Like it or not, you can test your build's limits against enemies in the couple hundreds of levels. Will there be cheese? Yes. But that's not an excuse not to add this type of content.

ITS ALREADY IN THE GAME !!! USE IT AND STOP COMPLAINING.... 

6 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Warframe failed in that respect in that we got exponentially more powerful compared to early 2015 but we fight the exact same lv 1-100 enemies. With the exact same gimmicks (invulnerability and ability nullification). 

Then do an endless mission....

7 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

We were fighting nullifiers and timed bosses with barely 20k DPS Soma and Boltor prime. We fight the exact same things with 2mln DPS guns and 10+mln DPS melees now. I think it's a problem. 

And it was solved long before I started playing... 

8 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

On a side note, think about all the latest "challenges"

- Eidola are immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, have innate DR you cannot reduce and are designed around a DPS race. They also are a huge sack of hitpoints that barely pose a threat. 

- Orbmothers are immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, have innate DR you cannot reduce and are designed around a DPS race. They also are a huge sack of hitpoints that barely pose a threat. 

- The wolf is immune to status, immune to warframe abilities, has innate DR you cannot reduce and is designed around a DPS race. He also is a huge sack of hitpoints that barely poses a threat. 

Yes, i copy pasted the paragraphs. Rings a bell? Literally the only thing not fitting that model is Exploiter orb, and it is done so poorly you can ignore it the whole fight and you will still win. What the #*!%? 

Honestly I could careless whether these additions are challenging or not.... my argument has always been they just simply aren't enjoyable... its a game....I think whats far more enjoyable is more important than wether its hard or not.

7 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

It is because Borderlands has new game + or ultimate vault hunter mode and even tho its not like dark souls and doesnt go ng++ and so,many find uvh mode exactly that, difficult, it is nothing like first playthrough.

Because the enemies get smarter ? Or are they just fiddling with the numbers like warframe does ? 

8 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Also getting better loot is called "progression" so idk what youre whining about. Warframe has it for its first hours and how long that is depends on the player, but then it stops.

Well I haven't reached that point yet...

9 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

 

 

Well if you guys have any bright ideas, I'm sure DE would love to hear from you.

 

Seriously - if you can tell them what they should be doing, Tweet them, get posting in Feedback...anything that will get their attention...

 

Nothing.... as soon as they sat down to make a Gear Based progression Game they sealed their fate.... theres no un-#*!%ing what they already #*!%ed up.

But that doesn't mean the game needs to be more frustrating 

 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

The op is correct.  The game needs more endgame stuff at an early time frame than wasting hours+ in endless waiting for something.

For all those saying "but there are so many players who can't do that" - well there is a ton of content in the game for them.

And what is the problem with putting some rewards behind hard content that might only be achievable if you have other content already?  Those complaining they can't get it should shut up and get the other stuff they don't have.  Then they can get it.

Whats the problem with adding a few things that actually gives players a reason to  forma, mod correctly, and learn how to play their gear?

If people what to steamroll low level content forever they can stick with any of the myriad of missions on the starchart currently.

Now - I will agree with all the people that laugh at the OP for his stupid 125day/mr27/4hr survival/look at me aren't I awesomesauce.

 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

 

 

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

pick any endless mission you like and don't leave.

what part of the "we don't want to have to wait hours to get to that level" do you fail to comprehend?  How about we just remove all rewards from low level missions until you've been in there for an hour.  You can still get your rewards, just don't leave. 

 

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

my argument has always been they just simply aren't enjoyable.

so your argument is "I don't like it so don't add it - I don't care what others enjoy".  got it.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg

[DrivaMain]

I smell a troll... (a user with 8 post starts a very sensitive subject without doing research? Seems fishy to me)

but anyways, level 35-40ish is considered high level in star chart standard. Because normal star chart is not considered “End-Game content”.

MR 27 in 125 days? Can you give me your daily playtime?

Forcing players to downgrade their equipment to make gameplay more “engaging and difficult” is not a good counter to the difficulty issue. If you tell that to those players then what’s the point of grinding those items then? Remember there will always be a “meta” or “cheese” in CO-OP PvE games, because human players are always outsmarting AIs. you can’t truly stop it.

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by DrivaMain
Grammar mistakes

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

Because the enemies get smarter ? Or are they just fiddling with the numbers like warframe does ? 

Enemies "getting smarter" doesnt exist in the current development meta.

I literally can hardly think of ANY example from hundreds of games Ive played in the past 15 or so years, the only example I can think of and that is if Im not misatken is Halo. The rest - at best they are alerted more easily in stealth games (like Dishonored) and they spawn more special enemies that use abilitiies more often and have better accuracy.

That said, AI in Borderlands are better than like 90% of games anyway so.

[Sloan441]

4 hours ago, Highresist said:

It is not an issue with this game alone, altought it is arguably a lot worse than other RPGs. Developers are reluctant to make "end game" content with appropriate level of difficulty and rewards, because they are afraid that 99% of their playerbase will not participate, essentially making it a dead content out of the bat. What every developer forgets, however, is the myth of the 1%, best explained in a 2005 Blizzcone about raiding in World of Warcrat. If you make incentive for people to reach higher in the game, they would take part in the "1%" content.

This needs addressed on a couple of levels. 

There are easier games than WF out there. Any Bethesda RPG suffers far more from powercreep than WF. So much so that once you reach a certain point in your character development, even legendary mode becomes trivial. Not easy, trivial. Trivial to the point of why bother anymore? Many of my ES and (to a lesser degree) FO games hit this point surprisingly rapidly. 

Blizzard has gone through a number of phases of difficulty levels. This is indicative of a moving target that's hard to hit. Of course, they eventually went entirely off the rails and, well, Blizz is no longer Blizz these days, but up to and during Pandaland there are illustrative examples.

Raiding was hard. In vanilla and TBC it was extremely hard. Hence the 1% of the playerbase that ever saw T3 raid content in those expansions. They loosened up on this in WotLK and that was probably their best expansion in terms of player balance. They went retrograde in Cataclysm and people threw a fit (even though it wasn't up to vanilla or TBC standards), so we got Pandaland and public raiding. This was a real crapshoot and showed you why not everyone is cut out to do everything in all games. A lot of people simply have no sticktoitiveness and want to be carried through end game content. It's a problem and it failed public raiding on a consistent and ongoing basis. You could--as a raid leader--work around this, but it was time consuming and frustrating for all involved (if a bit of a relief when the boat anchors self-selected or got kicked). 

WF isn't an MMORPG in the same sense that a WoW or EQ was. It's an ARPG more similar to Diablo (a game series that also went through different paradigms of difficulty). WF probably most closely aligns with Diablo3 and the answer to endgame content can possibly be found there. Implementing it, however, wouldn't be easy. It took Blizzard years to come up with what they finally settled on. Also, it, too, ultimately become trivial and WF has a much, much faster content cycle than any Diablo ever had. A real problem in a game as quickly evolving as WF is. 

The bottom line is there's no easy answer and no one answer to WF and an accepted endgame. I still find the game interesting and fun even though most of what's in the game isn't difficult to me anymore. The changing systems and new stuff are what keeps me coming back, not any one game mode or instanced 'dungeon'. 

[Anduvriel]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

Why would you ever do that?
 

Thats why no one sane without a capable build is doing uber elder in Poe. 

And a reason to do it is simple cause its really hard, thou one might argue about fun. The greatest reward that game is supposed to ever give you is fun and challenge. Thats what you pay for. 

If you don't remember that, you can get stuck in a cycle of grind to accumulate so much opie cheese shyt its hard to challenge you. Most single player games have that after like 30 hours. Online games pushed the bar higher so we have huge expectations, but i kinda understand where i am, 1300 hours in warframe, it will be really difficult to challenge me and create something fresh.

I can see True difficulty only possible in human interaction, the rest will probably last a day or two or will be almost impossible for most of the starting community and called uber endgame. I would like to have Such aspiring content even if i wouldn't be able to do it at first, but the problem is, what will happen if only 1% of players will ever play it? Raids where played by 2% and they werent even hard.. (loved them btw).

How much resources should DE put into it? They are a company.. It kinda works for PoE in that way that streamers go ham hardcore on endgame content for 12h per day that is heavily gated by grind or trading, people watch it, try to aspire, play the game more..

But will it work here? I don't know. They tried with wolf, he was harder to kill, you had to adapt a bit, sometimes when unprepaired use an ammo plate or stack some combo counter and the community hated it and he did scale with mission level. In no way extremely difficult, just hard. Harder grind? Look at the cosmetic mask or ephemeras.. They had to adjust those droprates and they were not that bad tbh (i have 5 crafted ephemeras and i am not a crazy grinder and i have terrible luck) 

If they put new difficulty whining starts that why would anyone play it if rewards are the same. If they are not the same whining for nerf will come even faster. DE fix, unplayable. True endgame, new raids for example.. Same thing.. Maybe as a whole community, or the average tenno we dont really want aspiring content. 

[FlusteredFerret]

58 minutes ago, Altagraive said:

People say that but I feel it's the opposite.

I used to jump in, do a bunch of stuff, usually run alerts for helmets and nitain, trade some things back and forth and call it a day. I never felt obliged to do anything.

Now logging in and seeing nightwave and arbitrations just makes my head hurt and I log off without running a single mission.

Game is structured more like a job now, which caters more to hardcore players than to casuals/noobs.

That's my opinion, tell me if you disagree with me.

I mostly disagree.

The dailies are ridiculously easy and don't take long to do. Most of the weeklies aren't much hassle e.g. do 3 sabotage / capture / rescue missions, mine ore / gems, catch fish, kill 150 enemies using [X] damage (just do 4-5 waves of Defence or Survival). Even some of the Elites aren't too bad.

I do ignore the bounty missions, animal captures and others, where you have to complete 8 or more missions...too grindy. Same with the 60-minute survivals, sortie & Profit Taker missions...too long and too difficult (for me).

I've barely been trying and have still reached Rank 23, so anyone who's even remotely tried, should have reached Rank 30 without too much trouble.

 

Also, the devs have said they are going to reduce the grind for Season 2...

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[Highresist]

10 minutes ago, Anduvriel said:

Thats why no one sane without a capable build is doing uber elder in Poe. 

This is offtopic xD .

 

[Autongnosis]

il y a une heure, FlusteredFerret a dit :

Well if you guys have any bright ideas, I'm sure DE would love to hear from you.

Seriously - if you can tell them what they should be doing, Tweet them, get posting in Feedback...anything that will get their attention...

Been doing that for years, and not just me. Others with even more experience. And other games. There is a wealth of material to learn from to design something. 

Even if you don't want to fully commit, just using small step solutions like level sliders, spawn rate sliders and more availeability of fissures could go a long way. 

I mean, they even made april jokes on a crossover between warframe and Path of Exile and that game has a wealth of endgame activities you could take inspiration from. 

Heck DE themselves did a masterful job at designign a procedurally assembled tile system that never quite feels the same despite spending literally thousands of hours in there. They could simply reuse existing materials like nightmare and sortie modifiers, use a tile based dungeon crawl structure like ESO and adding some secondary mission objectives and boss floors, make it all procedural on a weekly or biweekly basis, and it would work fine enough... 

[Anduvriel]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

This is offtopic xD .

 

That is a capable build with a lot of cheese. Excatly all my points..XD.

thou i fully admit - on a skilled player. 

[DerGreif2]

5 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

The game needs to cater to players of all skill levels...including noobs.

DE are trying to figure out how to provide more challenging content for veterans, without screwing up the game for everyone else.

The thing is: there is nothing for vets... this is the problem. New players dont have problems with content and stuf to do. vets have. In the moment the game is catered to "noobs" and new players and that screws vets since... when did warframe had an endgame?

[(XBOX)Jouna1]

I don't really have anything to contribute when it comes to the discussion of possible engame, except that I can understand the difficulty with coming up with a satisfactory solution to this.

However, what I wanted to point out was the difference between Destiny and Warframe. Someone pointed to Destiny's way of handling progress and difficulty, and they do some things right. But I would not want WF to become Destiny, and they can't really be compared in this regard.

 In Warframe, you have "true" progression, you get more powerfull as you progress. It's a powerfantasy, and it feels great. Enemies I can't even scratch in the beginning i can just melt later in game, and in many different ways. I jump high, move fast, and modding have a visible impact. This is also what makes it so hard to do satisfying endgame for. It's hard to control that amount of power.

In Destiny, nothing really changes as you progress. You don't hit harder, you don't kill enemies faster, you often feel quite limited in your power. Your abilities are on a somewhat long cooldown, your mods doesn't do that much and your movement is nowhere near Warframe. Your power level is more of a checkpoint to reach so you can do content intended for that power level, but nothing really changes when you get there. This is of course also why it's easier to do challenging content. As you can't just bring more powerfull mods and press 4, you have to rely on skill.

Tldr: Destiny has the challenge, but not the power fantasy. Warframe has the power fantasy, but not the challenge.

 

[HexOmega111x]

Il y a 5 heures, Psykhe27 a dit :

From a day 125 MR27 player who can do 4 hour survivals

Yes so you did not play the game. You just bought a lot of things, spent a lot of time at Hydron and use some OP build from some obscure youtuber. And still you come here asking for difficulty in a game you obviously did not play and of course that you don't know. 

If you wanted to gain some credibility with your last line, you failed. 

[Softballbryan]

5 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

 

Both, of course. 

It all depends where you are at in the game. I'm MR11 myself and still find some things very challenging (Eidolon hunts, Nightmare missions) and some things impossible (Sorties).

Thats what so many complainers fail to realise. They are so blinkered and thinking only of themselves (or possibly a few friends in the same position), instead of realising there is a huge player base, of all abilities.

 

But you’re comments goes to show how important harder content is needed. If you continue to play, the current difficulty will become less and less... you will be looking for challenge..... DE needs to make some terribly difficult missions for the players who want it....

[Softballbryan]

It’s like when you go snowboarding.... the mountain defines difficulty by color... there are a ton of people on green and blue trails... far fewer on the black... but blacks are important to some skiers.... make black difficultly and some double blacks in Warframe please. 

[aswitz87]

The only real challenge a game like this could have is making enemies harder to hit.    Everything else is either already part of the game or not a challenge (enemies with aoe map nukes).

Unless you are like me and have a physical limitation, there can be no real difficulty to a shooter once you have acquired the needed knowledge to play at top level.  The only challenge is acquiring that knowledge in the first place.  Once you got it you are set.

 

I think that is part of the issue.  Vets (generally) want to return to that feeling when they had started and didn’t have the knowledge that trivializes content.  Too bad you can’t hit a mental undo.  You can’t go back, and short of completely redoing the way you play the game, there is not much the devs can do to get you back there for more than a couple minutes (new stuff).