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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Revisiting Augments

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On 2019-07-25 at 3:44 PM, Chroia said:

I'm thrilled to see this.

That said, before you get too deep into this process, please have whoever's in charge have a sit-down and decide what the role, the purpose of augments is.

Are they intended to serve as upgrades to abilities? Bandaids? (Plz no.) - i.e. 'why would you ever not use the augment if you use ability X?' Irradiating Disarm serves as a 'good' example for the former, Piercing Roar as a 'bad one' (can't blame the aug for Punct proc effect sucking), Iron Shrapnel or Larva Burst as well as Neutron Star for the latter.
Are they intended to promote alternate or niche playstyles? - i.e. Not a no-brainer, but has its place. Chromatic Blade is a (kind of bad) example.
Are they intended to create or promote new synergies within the frame, the loadout, or the squad? (Best example I can come up with off the top of my head here is the '1 -> elemental buff' augments, and I don't love it as an example.) On reflection, Molecular Fission is a better one.
Are they intended to change the aesthetic of an ability (via mechanic change)? - e.g. Absorb -> Assimilate, Sound Quake -> Resonating Quake, or Artemis Bow -> Concentrated Arrow.
Something else?

This would also really help direct the conversation, as we'd know what we're calibrating for.


As is stands, some augments are straight upgrades in the form of MOAR STATS! (such as Primal Fury or Piercing Navigator), some are straight upgrades in the form of added capabilities (such as Seeking Shuriken or Pilfering X), and a few are mechanics changes (see: Absorb <-> Assimilate).

These are not equally attractive, even ignoring not all abilities being equal.
And with mod slots at a premium, as things stand, many augments are basically never worth a slot, even for niche builds.

Quoting for emphasis. 

There's no clear indication of the goal of augments, but too many of them are blatantly bandaids. Literally at least half should be inherent to the ability given the scope of newer frame capabilities. 

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On 2019-07-25 at 12:41 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hysterical Assault - Hysteria Augment - Valkyr

  • Let invulnerability linger for half a second when aiming to prevent getting downed immediately in high-damage areas 
  • Increased Range 

I'd frankly rather see the exalted melees go back to needing to be deactivated to pull out a primary or secondary instead. I want manual blocking and guardgliding to come back, not wonky augment bandaids like this.

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As it stands for me and many players, using an augment mod cuts on crucial stats to keep us alive and optimized. Due to this, most augment mods are just not used and the few that are, are either overly crucial to a build or just slightly worth the hit to stats. I was wondering if there are any plans to completely rework the augment system? Perhaps adding a mod slot similar to exilus mod slot, and prehaps reducing or negating the cost of augment mods while also limiting them solely to that mod spot?

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Have Eclipse be a snapshot ability or add that functionality to the Total Eclipse augment.

It would make Mirage alot more consistent if you could cast Eclipse in a shady spot and have that consistent damage reduction for the duration and vice versa for the damage boost in light.

The way the ability is now you often end up with the wrong buff since in-game lighting is very tricky. (a shady spot to you is enough light to give the damage boost instead of damage reduction for example)

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Special slots for arguments will be nice, now I don't personally use arguments becourse they are more important mods.

Edited by (NSW)zook-pl
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Some of them are pretty cool, though I think some solve issues that should be solved baseline.

IE: Roar should be re-castable while active by default.

I also still think augments should have an entirely separate UI and not compete for space with other mods. One augment slot per ability with multiple augments per ability > having to give up baseline stats to fit in an augment. 

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On 2019-07-25 at 11:20 AM, OmegaVitae said:

any internal talk on making Energy Transfer innate and applying the transferable charge effect to Equinox's 3 as well? she's really lacking fluidity when you have to either treat her like 2 seperate frames, or sacrifice a mod slot on a frame whose buildspace is already very tight.

Equinox is fine, chill out. I've been using her as a main for three years at this point, and these complaints aren't really issues.

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If you really want to make using augments worth it while not disrupting builds;  after putting forma into a frame, give us 9 more mod points and a dedicated augment slot.  We are already at the point of min/maxing builds as it is, especially without access to multiple umbra forma for some of our builds. 

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Just now, (XB1)CONAN 42576 said:

If you really want to make using augments worth it while not disrupting builds;  after putting forma into a frame, give us 9 more mod points and a dedicated augment slot.  We are already at the point of min/maxing builds as it is, especially without access to multiple umbra forma for some of our builds. 

I think the majority of players agree on this, we need one more slot, dedicated for augments. Some frames absolutely require augment mods, and suffer greatly without them.

make it an augment-specific slot, if necessary, so no extra strength and range can be piled on. Augment only.

I've been saying this for the past year; we don't need another mag revisit, just give us a slot for augments.

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Pheonix renewal / renewal need also some changes, since wisp's healing mote add max HP + regen, maybe nerf heal on death or invulnerability time and buff armor or regen over time

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I would just change Target Fixation's name to Dive Bomb and give it AOE damage with a knockdown. Then, depending on the number of enemy's affected, you'd get a damage buff which could stack with multiple usages of the ability [with a cap to the amount of course].

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Please, PLEASE extend the range on Smoke Shadow! 5m in this game are nothing considering how fast we can move

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Am 25.7.2019 um 19:41 schrieb [DE]Bear:

 

Titanic Rumbler - Rumblers Augment - Atlas

  • Increase to damage and speed 
  • Re-triggering the power will activate the taunt, as well as cause a knockdown effect

 

Fireball Frenzy - Fireball Augment - Ember
Freeze Force - Freeze Augment - Frost
Smite Infusion - Smite Augment - Oberon
Venom Dose - Spores Augment - Saryn
Shock Trooper - Shock Augment - Volt 

  • Holding the casting button will send out a wave (much like similar, expanding Warframe Abilities) giving the elemental buff to every player it touches, including the caster

Very nice DE, i hope the rework will pay off, i think augments could have the potencial to spice up a build a lot😃but like many people before me allready sayed, make the augment worth enoutht to sacrifice a whole Mod-slot OR EVEN BETTER make the exilus slot augment-compatible.


I realy like Atlas just for his stone theme and i hope that the Rumblers will be worth to be called his ultimate abbility one day, at least they are solid ton heavy stone golems, their punches should be equaly fatal, maybe give them some Critchance and headshot aim.. or just let me give them my Archwing gun, i would love to see my golems with a Grattler or an Corvas going on a rampage ^^.

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I know this probably isn't the depth of the thread here; but perhaps floating the idea of moving augments to dedicated slots in the ability page would open up more room for augment design experimentation as well as a new range of player progression that could be invested in with minimum investment in a new system.

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On 2019-07-25 at 1:41 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Transistor Shield - Electric Shield Augment - Volt

  • No additional energy drain when a shield is picked up by another player
  • Increase damage conversion % 

Maybe also let it refresh your shields' durations for some energy cost? Don't really seeing it used if it still just buffs static.

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I'll just say my small piece here and move on.

I have around 3k hours played in game. I have never used a single warframe augment. Most of them make me ask the question "Why would I, or anyone else, ever use this thing?" These proposals don't really wow me very much either for the most part.

I think augments should make a much bigger impact or change things in a significant way. As it is now, with how power-creeper the game is, these augments are totally unnecessary for just about everything.

If there was some clear definition as to their purpose, maybe I would be less conflicted about the system. I do applaud you looking into the system, though. That's always a good sign that good things can come in the future.

Thanks for listening.

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16 hours ago, AaronGamer11 said:

Where did you get this information?

From the second paragraph:

It should be noted that some Augments are tied to abilities that see very little use (such as Pool of Life), however, these will be looked at later on when those same abilities are considered for a rework.

Bladestorm's line of sight mechanic is terrible for a team comp when the game's meta moved to killing things faster, so hopefully they will look into reworking it to be more better to use in battle.

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On 2019-07-25 at 1:12 PM, BlachWolf said:

IT really only needs some QoL changes with its targeting system. Making it into a cone would fix most of the issues it has.

I disagree, I think going back to the original method of marking an enemy and having an aoe instant effect bladestorm around it would be better, this would be faster while keeping all the new mechanics of triple marking instantly, no immortal enemies, and no animation force unless teleporting to one to join in, and slash damage if any survive the finishing bladestorm effects.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Reprehensiblefuk said:

I think the majority of players agree on this, we need one more slot, dedicated for augments. Some frames absolutely require augment mods, and suffer greatly without them.

make it an augment-specific slot, if necessary, so no extra strength and range can be piled on. Augment only.

I've been saying this for the past year; we don't need another mag revisit, just give us a slot for augments.

But wouldn't adding another slot would require to look into the mod points cap?

Adding one more may push over the max mod points needed for certain builds these days.

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How is no one talking about Chroma’s Augments....the only halfway decent one is everlasting ward.. but oh wait, wisp already does that better.. can apply a version of everlasting toxin/Shock/and heat ward all at the same time. Well at least he can change his elemental damage... Well so can Excalibur’s Chromatic Blade.. I’m seriously wondering how these augments didn’t get blinked at...5BOE6gw.jpg

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A lot of those reworks sound nice and usefull. However, what usually really prevents or disencourages me from using augments is most often, that i have to sacrifice a mod slot to do so. And with the ever growing number of mods and, the introduction of mod sets and the sheer need for certain mods on almost every frame, my mod slots feel really, really limited already. 

There are only a few builds i use, where I get the feeling, that using the augment mod beats using another mod for hightening a base stat or a corrupted mod. If the augment change is just "a little gimmicky" or "okay, but not a game changer", I am just not willing to trade that in for overall power/survivability/usefullness of my whole frame or all of it's abilities.
So, what I'd like to see considered are the following things:

1 - More slot options
Maybe make all augment mods valid for being slotted into an exilus slot, like Mesa's Waltz. Or give us an exilus-like slot just for augment mods. Or maybe both!
The more options I have to use augment mods without having to consider what to sacrifice for it, the more likely i'll use them. Then it wouldn't even matter that much, if they are just some fun little gimmicks, tweeks or add-ons to the abilities.
This might make the use of certain abilities more attractive, too. For example, if you can youse your fireball to buff allies, that's nice, i guess. But will you really give up overall power strenght/duration/health for that? On the other hand, if you can have your Wirld on Fire augment (exilus slot) while having all the stat power-ups you want/need (regular slots) and still have the option to take the Fireball augment (new augment slot), i guess there'd be a lot more fire buffs handed out on the battlefileds. 
Also, this way augments would become more of a way to further customize your Warframes and your play style. Your Ember might become and feel a little more like it actually is YOUR Ember, instead of just the next clone of one maxed out build you found on the net. Some kind of "ability fashion frame", if you like.

2 - Stat enhancing augments
The Magnetized Discharge change does it right, i'd say. Let the augment, in addition to it's effect, enhance one or more essencial base stats that the ability relies on, for that ability only. Many builds for many frames focus on maximizing one ability. If the augment plays into that, you'll have something that will be frequently considered as an option.

2.5 - More slots AND more stats?

Spoiler

Just some crazy ideas that came to mind while already writing:
What if using two augments on a frame would provide a small set bonus? Or what if (at least some) augments could be fitted into the Aura slot, giving your frame the ability augmentation while still providing a stat boost or some other sweet benefits to the whole party? But I guess that would require a lot of thought going into balancing.


3 - Ability changes, gameplay synergies and overall fun
Some augments just add an additional effect onto an ability, others change the ability completely in a more or less meaningfull way, while some (mainly) just add "quality of life" changes (like removing restrictions) that make me wonder, why the ability wasn't designed that way in the first place, (almost always) making them a "must have" on your builds.
So some are really nice and fun to use , make frames more viable in certain mission types or create opportunities for some intense min-maxing. I'd argue, that these are the mods most often use and I think it's because they offer some great tactical advantage or savage power (which makes them a real alternative to a stat mod). Others you really need to make an ability of actual use in the field, especially considering high-level content.
Personally, I think the aim should be to make the Warframes and their abilities viable on their own in general and in a wide difficulty range. Augments should just offer a different spin on the possibilities and play style. However, if the augment a) ends up being objectively more useful and/or powerful or b) the augment becoming an integral and nessacary part of any high-difficulty/"endgame content" build or c) the augment only making the abilty become "on par" with similar abilites from other frames, then the goal might have been missed and the ability might be better of with a rework than with an augment.



  

Edited by InvdrZOB
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@[DE]Bear This is awesome. Much like Total Eclipse could you please take a look at Ash's Smoke Shadow? The range is super short and sometimes even if i'm hugging my allies they will bullet jump out of the small range and the buff won't get them.

Would be awesome to have the Zephyr's one too increase the range, so i don't have to max range to cover my allies with Jet Stream. Honestly all these similar working abilities (buffing allies) have a really small range, while i would like to actually and realiably buff my allies since i'm sacrifying power and slots i could use for myself in order to help and empower my allies. The super short range makes it hard and doesn't feel too rewarding right now... 

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Il y a 17 heures, Turtle. a dit :

As it stands for me and many players, using an augment mod cuts on crucial stats to keep us alive and optimized. Due to this, most augment mods are just not used and the few that are, are either overly crucial to a build or just slightly worth the hit to stats. I was wondering if there are any plans to completely rework the augment system? Perhaps adding a mod slot similar to exilus mod slot, and prehaps reducing or negating the cost of augment mods while also limiting them solely to that mod spot?

I would prefer 2 mods slot to be honest : that would add the ability to give mod more significance and maybe add some synergy between ability.

Regarding the mod cost I don't think it's necessary; they all have some polarity, so It would simply require a forma to reduce the cost, that being said adding mod to frame would probably should go with an increase in aura point across the board like from 7 to 10 to add that 6 point capacity.

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