Veterans misunderstand why they don't enjoy playing the game anymore

[Goodwill]

1 minute ago, Ephemiel said:

......are you REALLY comparing Warframe's content droughts with Mario Kart 8 [you know, that game where the point isn't to "beat it", but to play with other players]?

I am just done with this thread, the strawmaning and general insanity here are out of hand.

But if I don't care about playing with other players, then that part of the game is not content to me. It's like people complaining there is no content and they haven't even tried all the weapons yet.

And are you really claiming strawmanning? I do like the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

[BLI7Z]

5 minutes ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

...or where you have to show up somewhere to harvest something that only spawns once a day and you need umpteen million of whatever.

So? You want things now, without having to grind? Grind is grind, no way around it. Except you pay to advance faster. Not to win, just to avoid a little bit of that grind. 

[Goodwill]

Just now, RunsWithChainsaws said:

...or where you have to show up somewhere to harvest something that only spawns once a day and you need umpteen million of whatever.

Still better than other time gates in most other MMOs. Does that mean it is good or right just because it is better? Hell no, but let's keep things into perspective. Although I am curious about what resource you are talking about. I thought you meant the plants but you don't need many of them.

I will not disagree on reducing time gating though. Even for things like the Foundry as I do believe Warframe makes most of its money from discount coupons, Tennogen, and players who essentially support Warframe as if it were a subscription. I highly doubt making materials less scarce (or at least make sense) will be a hit in the hip-pocket for DE.

[RunsWithChainsaws]

No...don't want anything in particular NOW, and I pay for cosmetics.

[Tinklzs]

4 hours ago, FlyingDice said:

The same applies to literally any game: you will eventually burn out and get bored.

Perhaps, but that doesn't need to be the case with Warframe, considering it's a live-service style game. Meaning, if DE puts some effort into new game modes, and actually makes them fun and rewarding, no breaks will be necessary. 

3 hours ago, Fire2box said:

I don't get the whole "Take a break" when said break is implied to be months or longer. 

Tell me, do you people do that with anything else in your life? Would you tell DE Steve to take a break from developing warframe if he's burnt out on it and the community in fighting with itself? 

If it's not acceptable for your own life, dear god why is it for video games? If it's because "video games aren't important" then why do you care so deeply when someone criticizes the game you like to the point of you saying " No your wrong, go play something else."?  

 

Exactly.

17 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

What would you say to someone who says that he is bored collecting action figures? Suddenly join him in protest to against the company to make more figures?

That analogy sadly doesn't work here, playing with those action figures you'd only be limited by your imagination. Can't tell you how many hours of my childhood I spent playing with matchbox cars or outside with sticks and my imagination, the only thing that limited me was.. my imagination. 

With Warframe, it requires a bit of work, but it isn't something that is impossible or asking DE to find the cure for cancer. It's been plastered all up and down these forums for years, and they just refuse to acknowledge it.

E.N.D.G.A.M.E. 

C.H.A.L.L.E.N.G.E.

R.E.W.A.R.D.S. 

These are what most vet players want, something that will challenge their new 'endgame' gear (arcanes, decked out warframes etc. and looking cool while doing so) and getting rewarded for their time/effort/investment of learning the game and creating a min/maxed build.  Instead, there is no reward for that effort, and no challenge.  And before you say it, no, removing mods and tying an arm around your back isn't 'challenge', especially not in a looter-shooter.  Borderlands even challenges you when you get gear, even when in a party and players have designated roles.  There is no reason why we can haven't one or two games modes that do this.

I've said it before, star chart ~50 is ez street, this is your power fantasy playground, it would be exactly the same as we have now. 60-100 would be challenge territory, gradually getting harder and requiring teamwork, rewarding experience and "proper" builds.  Then 105-125 would be "raid" territory, where gear is pushed to the absolute limits and 'skill/ability' is required, or at least the ability to memorize things. Similarly to how raids work in WoW, normal quests (start chart), dungeons (sortie), raids (... raids). 

DE has the foundations here to do so, without shaking up Warframe and making everyone mad. I just find it disappointing they alienate those that want a challenge, and those that don't want that challenge attack those that do - giving non-answers (remove mods, play something else, take a break) as a way to "fix" something DE should've treated a long time ago.

 

Edit: The dumbing down of Warframe and making it easier is just further pushing away vet players that want more, and catering to those that won't stay here nearly as long for some cheap entertainment, when they could go much further and bring a better experience for everyone involved. New and old, challenge and casual players alike Quality > Quantity.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Tinklzs

[BLI7Z]

1 minute ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

No...don't want anything in particular NOW, and I pay for cosmetics.

So do you really have any problem with grinding in any game?

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Actually, if you set your own goals in the game, you can create your own content just like action figure play.  It's like that guy who did the thousand forma Vauban. 😛

[RunsWithChainsaws]

1 minute ago, BLI7Z said:

So do you really have any problem with grinding in any game?

Not really, unless it's temporary content.  Then the grinding has to be reasonable.  No 14 days of 16 hour grind anymore.  I'm getting too old for that.

 

[RunsWithChainsaws]

People talk about challenging content and fail to realize that after a certain "challenge threshold" 99% of the player population will not be able to do the content or if they do they won't want to touch it again.  If all the new content is that kind of content, then the game will have no future, right?  or am I wrong?

[844448]

49 minutes ago, Ephemiel said:

That is a very good way to ignore the fact we gotta wait 8+ months for an update that can be beaten, in a casual matter, in around 3 hours.

Do you know how they can make content that can last more than a month? By making you grind again for a whole new set of resources and make your gear obsolete and you have to grind again from getting the next tier peashooter, working out your way to the top tier again. Is that what you want as longevity and content?

[DeathDweller]

20 minutes ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

People talk about challenging content and fail to realize that after a certain "challenge threshold" 99% of the player population will not be able to do the content or if they do they won't want to touch it again.  If all the new content is that kind of content, then the game will have no future, right?  or am I wrong?

Games apart from entertaining are meant to be challenging.The point of every game in the history of the world from Tetris and Super Mario to Doom and Dark Souls is to get better, learn the patterns and beat it or get that high score(unless we talk about a visual novel).If WF community has become so entitled as to defy the very core of gaming they should go watch a movie instead.

Edited August 24, 2019 by DeathDweller

[RunsWithChainsaws]

3 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

Games apart from entertaining are meant to be challenging.The point of every game in the history of the world from Tetris and Super Mario to Doom and Dark Souls is to get better, learn the patterns and beat it or get that high score(unless we talk about a visual novel).If WF community has become so entitled as to defy the very core of gaming they should go watch a movie instead.

Hmmm...can't you think of ways to challenge yourself without putting the devs on a treadmill?  How about gimping your build in some way?...like nightmare mission without having it labeled as such?  See how long you can last in ESO with an unranked warframe?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, Fire2box said:

I don't get the whole "Take a break" when said break is implied to be months or longer. 

Tell me, do you people do that with anything else in your life? Would you tell DE Steve to take a break from developing warframe if he's burnt out on it and the community in fighting with itself? 

If it's not acceptable for your own life, dear god why is it for video games? If it's because "video games aren't important" then why do you care so deeply when someone criticizes the game you like to the point of you saying " No your wrong, go play something else."?  

 

Yes and no. If it's entertainment that you overly consume or are getting tired of then yes! There's a reason why games themselves have that message in them too. 

DE Steve is involved in a business. He takes vacations, breaks and sick leaves like every other business. Remember the famous twitter support the players gave him regarding the Fortuna release? 

Here's what's weird: You guys are speaking as if there were no attempts AND that they're not continuing to attempt to make you guys happy. Raids and Dark Sector were NOT BEING USED and, somehow, you glorify it now? DE has the stats folks and justifyingly removed them to try something different! In a relationship, there is a such thing as a toxic partner. Some vets have become that. 

 

[FlyingDice]

1 hour ago, Ephemiel said:

Would love to know exactly how and why do you think this.

Because that's literally what happened. Not so much in CBT and the first year or two of OBT for various reasons: people were new and inexperienced, the game was much less supportive of rapid farming due to the relative lack of high and consistent multi-target damage, and a fairly small pool of equipment to grind towards.

It's no surprise that the "single-mission player" archetype started cropping up in late 2014 and into 2015, since that was when we started to see the confluence of a larger pool of high-potency nuke frames like Mesa and Update 17 Saryn, more power-creep in mods and weapons, a much larger pool of stuff to get and higher MR cap (and thus a larger grind wall for new players) combined with sufficient game knowledge to apply the former to maximally efficient missions in order to attain the latter as fast as possible, all at the time where the game was experiencing steady population growth.

There's a reason that "Draco noobs" and the equivalent for every other iteration of "The Best Affinity Farm Mission" is an instantly recognizable concept for anyone who's been around for a while. The game's early CC meta developed for T4D/T4S was already being forgotten by the time Specters of the Rail hit solely because people were now (then-now) more concerned with racing to the MR cap... because it was there, I guess?

If you joined during that period you probably didn't really notice, but for anyone who remembers when Warframe was actually a stealth shooter with a functional energy economy instead of unlimited space magic it was a jarring change. That's why you've got this new set of players who define Warframe as a game about living a zero-challenge godmode power fantasy and people who are completely at odds with that, and the set who treat it as a grinder MMO vs. the set who treat it as a shooter -- the division is based pretty much exclusively on when you started playing.

One of the game's hallmarks is the radical transformations it has undergone. Mostly for the best, but there's a lot of subtle fractures in community perceptions of the game largely because it has been so different through the stages of its lifespan.

[DeathDweller]

1 minute ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Hmmm...can't you think of ways to challenge yourself without putting the devs on a treadmill?  How about gimping your build in some way?...like nightmare mission without having it labeled as such?  See how long you can last in ESO with an unranked warframe?

That's what you do with every other game?

[RunsWithChainsaws]

FlyingDice is totally correct.  I don't even think I would have picked up the game in some of its older forms.

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Yep...if it's too easy, like a cartoon animal game I used to play, set a goal for myself, or start a community project.

[RunsWithChainsaws]

3 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

That's what you do with every other game?

Sorry...forgot the quote

 

[DeathDweller]

13 minutes ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Yep...if it's too easy, like a cartoon animal game I used to play, set a goal for myself, or start a community project.

Then the game has failed to deliver.And to be clear i'm not talking anything big here like those 160lv starting threads, but also not to turn a gory shooter into a visual simulator.The potential WF has shouldn't be wasted.

Edited August 24, 2019 by DeathDweller

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Hmmm...not sure I understand what you just said.  Clarify please.

 

[DeathDweller]

Just now, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Hmmm...not sure I understand what you just said.  Clarify please.

 

I mean that the game doesn't need to be difficult, it has to be sustainable and challenging that much as to keep the player engaged until he chooses to stop.You can see my suggestions for this on my profile or you can search other suggestions on the forums but the thing is that we don't have an answer from DE as to what THEY want to do.They can't decide on what WF is or what audiance they target.

[Lutesque]

40 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

Games apart from entertaining are meant to be challenging.The point of every game in the history of the world from Tetris and Super Mario to Doom and Dark Souls is to get better, learn the patterns and beat it or get that high score(unless we talk about a visual novel).If WF community has become so entitled as to defy the very core of gaming they should go watch a movie instead.

Yes... but in all the examples you mentioned (except for Dark Souls) those games weren't challenging at the expense of being Fun...

35 minutes ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

See how long you can last in ESO with an unranked warframe?

LoL.... you can't bring an Unranked Frame to ESO.... The game wont let you.... 

 

[RunsWithChainsaws]

7 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yes... but in all the examples you mentioned (except for Dark Souls) those games weren't challenging at the expense of being Fun...

LoL.... you can't bring an Unranked Frame to ESO.... The game wont let you.... 

 

ah...didn't know that  I've never tried to bring an unranked.  Well that is stupid, IMHO.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by RunsWithChainsaws
Spelling

[Fire2box]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Here's what's weird: You guys are speaking as if there were no attempts AND that they're not continuing to attempt to make you guys happy. Raids and Dark Sector were NOT BEING USED and, somehow, you glorify it now? DE has the stats folks and justifyingly removed them to try something different! In a relationship, there is a such thing as a toxic partner. Some vets have become that. 

There was very little to nothing in the game that ever stated raids were a thing. I didn't learn about them until the Twitch streamer I started watching back when plains released said something about it or maybe looking into arcane. But don't worry raids are only TEMPORARILY removed. "This is NOT the end to Trials. Our Designers have put in an incredible amount of blood, sweat, and tears into creating, fixing, and maintaining Trials. Not to mention the blood, sweat, and tears YOU as a Community have put into them! The upkeep of the Trials in a world where so many bigger plans are in motion are taking much needed brainpower and time."

 

Warframe's twitch channel also said new raids will come into the game when commenting on WF stream by WF Partner RandomSurge but that was already a year ago or something silly time wise like that, plus we didn't really know who was using the account could it of been megan, rebbecca, danielle, scott, sheldon, I dunno. 

You want to talk about Dark Sector? Alright, lets talk about Dark Sector. In my personal experience I never got the chance to experience it because it was removed sometime before I started playing in around mid 2017. So my opinion on them is moot. 

You know what I will talk about? Conclave. I wasn't aroudn when it was introduced, but I heard it was because the community asked for PvP and even if that's not true. Look how it turned out. If Raids were removed from lack of players then certainly Conclave could and possibly if not likely should have met the same fate. if Red text could poll WF users, I'd bet logged in players at least 40% of them wouldn't even know what Lunaro is. Hell, DE could announce Lunaro as a new game mode on Dev stream on April 1st 2020 and people would be like " Wow, it isn't a joke!" 

Also I can only imagine many players want longer Octavia notes. But what does the game get this next update. Some weird guitar Steve likes. Fine, whatever it's HIS game, not the community. It generally only takes 2+ years of the community begging, pleading for something for DE to actually make it a reality. From Uni-Vac to "More Riven mod slot." 

 

 

Three things happen from here on out. 

1. players remain hyper casual never maxing out their MR only using frames they like (looking at you Rhino, Saryn.)

2. They hit MR cap, obtain "everything" and get bored like any other veteran player does and sees the flaws of catering most of dev work to cosmetics or something half baked like Dog Days, Frame Fighter, Shawzin. Maybe they'll log in every day to get the weapons and primed mods and play a mission if that. 

3. DE finally steps up and makes content for all three tiers of players. new, mid game and endgame. You know what I've ever seen from the community? Asking DE to leave players behind. 

[RunsWithChainsaws]

1 minute ago, Fire2box said:

There was very little to nothing in the game that ever stated raids were a thing. I didn't learn about them until the Twitch streamer I started watching back when plains released said something about it or maybe looking into arcane. But don't worry raids are only TEMPORARILY removed. "This is NOT the end to Trials. Our Designers have put in an incredible amount of blood, sweat, and tears into creating, fixing, and maintaining Trials. Not to mention the blood, sweat, and tears YOU as a Community have put into them! The upkeep of the Trials in a world where so many bigger plans are in motion are taking much needed brainpower and time."

 

Warframe's twitch channel also said new raids will come into the game when commenting on WF stream by WF Partner RandomSurge but that was already a year ago or something silly time wise like that, plus we didn't really know who was using the account could it of been megan, rebbecca, danielle, scott, sheldon, I dunno. 

You want to talk about Dark Sector? Alright, lets talk about Dark Sector. In my personal experience I never got the chance to experience it because it was removed sometime before I started playing in around mid 2017. So my opinion on them is moot. 

You know what I will talk about? Conclave. I wasn't aroudn when it was introduced, but I heard it was because the community asked for PvP and even if that's not true. Look how it turned out. If Raids were removed from lack of players then certainly Conclave could and possibly if not likely should have met the same fate. if Red text could poll WF users, I'd bet logged in players at least 40% of them wouldn't even know what Lunaro is. Hell, DE could announce Lunaro as a new game mode on Dev stream on April 1st 2020 and people would be like " Wow, it isn't a joke!" 

Also I can only imagine many players want longer Octavia notes. But what does the game get this next update. Some weird guitar Steve likes. Fine, whatever it's HIS game, not the community. It generally only takes 2+ years of the community begging, pleading for something for DE to actually make it a reality. From Uni-Vac to "More Riven mod slot." 

 

 

Three things happen from here on out. 

1. players remain hyper casual never maxing out their MR only using frames they like (looking at you Rhino, Saryn.)

2. They hit MR cap, obtain "everything" and get bored like any other veteran player does and sees the flaws of catering most of dev work to cosmetics or something half baked like Dog Days, Frame Fighter, Shawzin. Maybe they'll log in every day to get the weapons and primed mods and play a mission if that. 

3. DE finally steps up and makes content for all three tiers of players. new, mid game and endgame. You know what I've ever seen from the community? Asking DE to leave players behind. 

Ouch...I'll have to prepare my husband for leaving the game if raids become a thing in WF.  I'll have to tell him maybe he shouldn't spend the kind of money he's spending on the game.  We both went to play another game because they said there wouldn't be raids, and he left that game when they rolled raids out as a major part of an expansion that he wouldn't have bought if he had known.