Veterans misunderstand why they don't enjoy playing the game anymore

[Teljaxx]

The two main problems I have with this game: Nothing ever gets finished, and there is no balance, and therefore no challenge or engagement.

Every new thing that DE adds to this game comes out in a alpha/beta state. That would be fine, if they actually ever got around to finishing it. But they rarely do. And when they do, it usually takes them way longer than it should have. Just look at melee 3.0. We've been stuck with this broken "melee 2.9" mess for how long now? You really shouldn't leave a core gameplay mechanic like that in an unfinished state for any time, let alone most of a year. Or how about how the Corrupted enemies are still using placeholder weapon models, despite being in the game for over 5 years now?

I get that DE needs to constantly release new content to keep that game alive. This is just a fact of F2P life. But when everything new ends up languishing in the same unfinished state as everything else, it just plain isn't worth the wait. Especially because of how bloated and feature creep ridden all their updates have gotten. When it takes them most of a year to release something that you can finish in three weeks, is it any wonder why people always complain about content droughts?

Then, when you add the rampant powercreep that every update brings more of, it also completely ruins any form of challenge that there may have been. Challenge comes from balance, and to balance, you need a fulcrum. But DE never bothered to set one up, so there is no balance, and therefore no challenge. They have been relying way too much on the infinite enemy scaling to cover themselves here, instead of ever creating any kind of endgame point to balance around.

They have also fallen into that "always buff, never nerf" mentality. This may seem good at first, but is not sustainable in the long run. Because challenge also comes from limitations. So when you systematically remove all the player's limitations, they will never be challenged. But, this does appease the more casual crowd that wants to be able to play the entire game by simply holding the go button and winning every time. But that usually gets boring pretty fast.

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

So far I've only heard about a 24 hour umbrafying reward for frames; I do hope there's something less operator focused too. I'm happy there will be new disruption locations since it's a fun mode, but my operator is strictly a battery and healer...

I heard about that too, but I was moreso exploring the things we haven't heard about and we are still unsure how much Kuva that node gives on the Fortress.

[DeathDweller]

I disagree with your 3 last points.From my experience in almost 3 years on WF i believe that the quality of the updates and content has dropped dramatically.TSD was one of the best gaming moments i've had in over 20 years of gaming.From there and up until POE there was a slow declining of content quality but still pretty cool.POE was a step up, idk if to the right direction but still, for a game like WF it was a big step up.

The thing is that the success that POE had, was and still is DE's own slow suicide.New people come in, a very small fraction stays and the vets start to turn their backs on WF.Many fail to realise that someday new people will stop coming, either because WF will become outdated like most games, either because they already know what WF is about from recent updates or just because a new game will appear to take it's place and the only people that could hold the game at that point would be the vets that will already be gone by then because DE turned their back on them.This could be in a year or 5 years, doesn't matter, the thing that matters, to me at least, is what WF will leave behind.A great game experience or a game that turned into a quick cashgrab?

De instead of stepping their game up, decided to stay still on the new model:Huge amounts of developing time, with a half baked result that lasts a week at it's best and simply prolong it with timewalls.Take the open worlds, instead of adding things like more cities more quests instead of repeatable missions, dungeons, something that should feel like a step up to the next  open world, are not in the game in favor of floofs or some other scheme to keep the players OCD side engaged instead of progressing through the"open world".

Appealing only to new players that will buy pl and that is shown by the fact that each update is accessible from almost the begining of the game.Promoting a P2W way with their bundles that make farming for a new frame for example useless.Why would i farm for a frame if the cosmetics that come with it's bundle can only be bought.Should just buy the whole thing from the start as you end up bying it anyway for the cosmetics alone.

Poor and questionable choices on everything, from the new melee, to the overall QOL, to the PTP connections to the crafting table that looks like a system coming out of a mobile game and general efficiency of the game remain unsolved in favor of useless updates like the new floofs or the shawzin(don't get me wrong, they are nice touches) but you can't have those touches and leave a game broken on many aspects for months.Fashion, codex, achievements, melee, chat, market, craft, loadouts, lack of new gameplay, lack of new companions, leeching and so many more, all remain untouched for years.

A studio with 300 people isn't AAA but it isn't indie either so that excuse of why all these happen, that doesn't really come from DE but the people that support them blindly, is just that, an excuse.Players provide feedback, it's not up to them to fix the game.It's not the players problem if DE can't put sustainable content anymore because they decided to target a different audiance.

And last but not least it's definitely not the players place to tell other players to stop playing the game or how to play it.When people come to the forums, many times they get the "we are not DE" answer from other players but when someone comes to them with a suggestion or a feedback that would change their way of what WF is , suddenly those same people act like they are DE and it's their game.

Edited August 23, 2019 by DeathDweller

[sinnae]

I have no idea what an "umbrafying reward" could be...where is this from/what does it mean?

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

1 minute ago, sinnae said:

I have no idea what an "umbrafying reward" could be...where is this from/what does it mean?

Watch the end of today's PrimeTime.

Basically farm umbra essence and use helmith chair to make any waframe a specter like umbra when playing as operator for 24 hours... 

[kevoisvevo]

1 hour ago, Goodwill said:

We do though. If we didn't, I doubt there'd be people with over a thousand hours of gameplay clocked.

hours clocked isn't a get metric to judge sustainable content with. it's players playing currently, which in warframe's case is 10k-15k at a time. even team fortress has higher numbers and it's F2P too 

[Urlan]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Watch the end of today's PrimeTime.

Basically farm umbra essence and use helmith chair to make any waframe a specter like umbra when playing as operator for 24 hours... 

Yeah, I was just hearing about that; many allies that still talk about the game waiting for new stuff just said that something like that was happening. Not pleased with it, and neither was I. I don't understand why anyone would consider such a thing a reward for play. Particularly something you have to craft to use with the Umbra Echoes.

[sinnae]

Couldn't find the timestamp but saw a comment about it...I'm not really a huge fan of timed buffs/consumables. I don't use specters either. But I'm sure people will find cool things to do with it that I can't think of right now.

[DeathDweller]

1 minute ago, sinnae said:

Couldn't find the timestamp but saw a comment about it...I'm not really a huge fan of timed buffs/consumables. I don't use specters either. But I'm sure people will find cool things to do with it that I can't think of right now.

Part 1 43:15

[844448]

Many of the veterans (what's the requirement to be called as veteran btw?) are saying that the content and mainline updates are too little and can be done in a day or two, which comes from this

"There's no summit to climb"

The core of why veterans can finish many updates is because they have more than enough resources to blast through it. They're more than ready for it

(I don't believe you if you say you don't have at least 1 resource at 999,999 in your inventory because I have around 2 resources sitting at 1m+)

On other games like destiny, each DLC gives a new summit to climb, but at the same time, rendering your old gears obsolete and outdated until you can get the requirements to upgrade it, technically "resetting your progress"

This "progress reset" can be seen on PoE and Fortuna on release day, where to get new toys, you will grind again from scratch, doesn't matter if you're a veteran or new player

Not only new toys, enemies on the new will be tougher than the last one so you will do the same climb again to reach the top

This, to consider before answering this question

"Do you agree in a whole new summit to climb?"

Of course, the grind won't be something easy. We will start following the old ways of the grind from old games where you need 4 to 5 digits amount of resources while you can only get 1 or 2 digits in amount. That's the first trade-off

The second trade-off is your super modded gears are now obsolete. You have 8 forma chroma and 8 forma opticor/rubico prime with god riven that one shot tridolon? Too bad, *poof* now your gears only tickle the enemies until you make this one peashooter that defeats your god gears with half baked modding until you get the requirements to upgrade your god equipments to this peashooter level, which is a hefty amount of grind

This is what you see in many games new expansion, where it's the new grind all over again as longevity and sustainable content, rarely because they're really challenging even with your god gears which only 0.01% of the community has it

Depending on your response, I may or may not put this in feedback

 

[0_The_F00l]

I can only surmise that the OP has no idea what I he is talking about, 

And on top of that he has the audacity to tell others the reason they feel something is wrong? 

The points leading up to the solution are already known, there is nothing that is new information (some of it, like there being zero useless things is not even true, a lot of the things become useless after you build the things you need them for) , this is the exact reason why the vets are frustrated in the first place. 

Misunderstood my ass, feels like a bait for vets, and I bite. 

The solution is not even a solution to add, not playing the game until the next update won't make the problems that exist go away, though it will reduce the frustration temporarily like any distraction would. 

[Aldain]

The reason why other games utilize obsolescence of gear is because they are linearly planned and designed, the problem Warframe runs into is that it is SO non-linear in terms of power progression and content design.

That is why new content has problems in Warframe as of late because unless DE caters in terms of design to the part of the community that can do literally BILLIONS of damage nothing will be able to stand up to that level of firepower.

I don't believe that DE should design much (if any) content around the current damage ceiling mainly because the current gap between average and high damage is about as wide as the distance between the Earth and Mars and designing content around such a gap would create content that would be D.O.A.

[Ikyr0]

I simply think challenging content should be both appealing and optional. Perhaps a faction (dare I say akin to OV Corpus or better) that is more challenging to fight mechanically but yields an interesting/unique reward for those putting in the effort.

Solving the power creep problem at this stage is near impossible imo, so just create content that basically ignores the players' stats. I think most people enjoyed the Exploiter Orb fight, and even the Ropalolyst...moreso than Eidolons and Profit Taker. I hope so badly that the Kuva Liches are mechanically challenging, and can't be one-shot by Chroma.

I don't necessarily want to re-grind the gear on every major content drop, like in D3, WoW and Destiny. I also hate Path of Exile's new content being tied to seasons.

Solving this is truly challenging for DE, and I guess you can say I feel for them. They could simply ignore the demographic that wants to be challenged in some way (lets call them "bitter vets"), and they'd still make good money. I know there's a large chunk of WF's community who would enjoy this very much, but I think it would be a bad call to throw away players who genuinely like most of the game.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Ikyr0

[Ikyr0]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I don't believe that DE should design much (if any) content around the current damage ceiling

And basically this, yes.

[Ikyr0]

4 hours ago, (PS4)InkCN said:

STOP !! Stop playing Warframe (at least for some amount of time). Playing a game countless of hours every day isn't sustainable unless unlimited amount of content (spoiler: it's impossible). And by how DE are extremely ambitious, you can only expect the updates to be bigger and bigger but also more and more scarce in time. Updates will never be more than a temporary bandage to your problem.

I was with you until this baffling conclusion.

WF needs a chunk of repeatable content that is at least mechanically challenging and yields some interesting/unique rewards for those who are power-creeped to hell. This is a no-brainer. Telling people to stop playing the game, instead of creating a little sandbox for them, would be the lazy, ignorant answer. I know there are some devs like Mr. Bite Size who totally wouldn't mind this approach, I just hope it doesn't represent the entire company.

[Ikyr0]

2 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

The two main problems I have with this game: Nothing ever gets finished, and there is no balance, and therefore no challenge or engagement.

Just quoting this because it's word-for-word how I feel. And let me tell you a secret - this approach ain't good for the game.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

With any great new gen game, two factors are always the turning point: better competition, which Warframe has no problems with, and the telling of content strategy. 

We originally had the wiki and forums simply acting as glossaries as we played, a player created manual. We were told what each damage type was for and the stats of each power, mod or weapon. We weren't told everything and even was community famous for keeping "the big secrets".

Now, EVERYTHING about Warframe is instantly viewable. Every shortcut, every hidden mod attribute, every secret area, every trick to boss battles. Everything. With content out every quarter, content creators get quick access and quickly run with it.

The vets and especially some content creators (not all) have spoiled the game for new and mid level players. What took years of learning, applying, experimenting and failing, has been shortened to months. The reward of finding your way was lost. And, despite the support Warframe gave the content creators to help boost or even create their "careers", those creators and vets think the game is losing because they're not attended too? You Serious?

If there's a strongest negative, it's the telling of the game...same as every other great game. Watching the optimal way to play the game creates "Insta-vets", proclaiming the same talking points as seasoned vets. Endgame based vets lie and say there's no content as others get lost in Jovian Concord and some of those vets can't even survive disruption. And, somehow, that's not the issue? 

 

[844448]

37 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The reason why other games utilize obsolescence of gear is because they are linearly planned and designed, the problem Warframe runs into is that it is SO non-linear in terms of power progression and content design.

That is why new content has problems in Warframe as of late because unless DE caters in terms of design to the part of the community that can do literally BILLIONS of damage nothing will be able to stand up to that level of firepower.

I don't believe that DE should design much (if any) content around the current damage ceiling mainly because the current gap between average and high damage is about as wide as the distance between the Earth and Mars and designing content around such a gap would create content that would be D.O.A.

There's a part that can be designed on other aspect from obsolescence of gear, a whole new set of grind like PoE and Fortuna where you will grind a whole new set of materials which causes quite an outcry of "too much grinding"

[Urlan]

39 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

I was with you until this baffling conclusion.

WF needs a chunk of repeatable content that is at least mechanically challenging and yields some interesting/unique rewards for those who are power-creeped to hell. This is a no-brainer. Telling people to stop playing the game, instead of creating a little sandbox for them, would be the lazy, ignorant answer. I know there are some devs like Mr. Bite Size who totally wouldn't mind this approach, I just hope it doesn't represent the entire company.

I also view that conclusion as somewhat baseless in its reasoning, as it defeats the purpose of the game in the first place. If a solution to a game being developed into a way that is unfun or nonsustaining, that means you either try to give the devs feedback on why it is this way, which I believe most of us have or you should never come back to the game; but that is a nuclear option when the game is truly dead to you. In this case, its not the Veterans failing the game, its the lack of consistent content. Living games as DE once positioned Warframe are not pickup and play games, at least not in my experience in gaming.

As for what I personally am looking for in the game, hek any game really; is rewards for the time invested that allow me to feel like I didn't just waste my time playing. Missions that don't feel like they would be better done by a robot; but also not like the trials just barely interactive puzzles; something that justifies building up a stockpile of resources and weapons. That is what I want; I don't want a useless consumable; while I would do missions for something that might permanently upgrade my warframe something like buying equipment/Trinket slots is not something I would like Warframe to go for; particularly as an intended reward. It would dis-incentivize further playing honestly.

[Tinklzs]

4 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

We really don’t though. If we did, there would be sustainable content, where as of right now, there really isn’t much to do in the game at the moment even if you have clocked in thousands of hours.

Exactly.  

Not to mention if they focus on game modes and have them scale correctly (difficulty, rewards) then we could have something 'simple' entertain many times for hundreds or thousands of runs if done correctly. I mean, look at kuva survival/siphons/floods.  Now imagine those with .. actually fun mission types - then they might have something (hey, not everyone likes survival). 

4 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

4 hours ago, Goodwill said:

 

Sustainable content could work in Warframe, it would just need to be executed well enough by DE. A big factor for it work is that it would need to have replay value so players aren’t able to be burnt out on it insanely fast as the rest of the game. 

Meaning that it has to have good enough rewards for players to actually have an incentive to do said content and would also have to be unique so players aren’t bored out of their minds of the same thing over and over.

Yup.

[Teljaxx]

The combination of how non-linear progression is in Warframe, with the power creep that has built up over time, has created such a massive potential difference between any two player's capabilities that it is pretty much impossible to pick any one point to balance anything around. The difference between what is easy or hard for new and long time players is enormous. Even two veterans, who have played the game for nearly the same time, could have very different sets of items, and therefore be completely different in terms of what is easy or hard to deal with.

This is why the closest that DE has ever come to making things balanced for everyone is with fights like the Exploiter, where 90% of the things that create all this variation are completely nullified and have no effect on the fight. And even though this does work, doing it too much will make collecting all that stuff pointless. And since collecting new gear is really the whole point of the game, that isn't good.

Logically, though, if DE can find a single point to balance around, it should be for newer players. Long time, 2,000+ hour veterans like myself are a minority, so if they want to please the most players, the newer ones are the most numerous. But, I don't think it really matters either way, because they have created an impossible task for themselves.

 

As for the "progress reset" you suggest: DE already kind of does this. Its what creates a lot of the powercreep that has become such a huge problem. Instead of adding an entire new set of better stuff all at the same time, they add a little bit at a time. An event brings new mods that are just a bit better, a quest gives a new weapon that is just a bit stronger, they rework an old frame to be just a bit more powerful, etc. And after a few updates, you realize that what used to be super tough enemies are now barely a challenge at all.

The main problem here though, is that they never update the enemies to go along with the player's new strength. They just rely on the infinite level scaling in endless missions to cover their butts. But it really isn't enough, especially now.

[Veridian]

Don't know if I classify as a Vet, but...

No.
There were 4 main points I started playing this game:
1. Was looking something Mass-Effecty
2. No hardcore, tight schedule required to have good gear
3. No hamster wheel, I can go away for an indefinite period of time and my character won't be useless on return
4. I'm not micromanaging 4 different resources and CDs while throwing toothpicks at the enemy

Your question kills anything but the 1st point.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Ver1dian

[Siegecraft]

vet or not don't think there is going to be focus  on  vets as things r going

compering it to other game is useless because warframe lacks competition right now In free to play sci-fi  i thing warframe is in the top .

just look at 2018 and 2019 . 2018 was  one content and nothing  once Anthem was released it had high hopes and would have pulled lots of players so in 2019 look what came out all at once.

I started playing this game was mass effect but the most compelling  thing was the story line the trailers  for warframe which made every warframe important with their lore and then comes the game plays looks etc but now the lack of lore while introducing new warframe its getting boring  new warframe comes out but it becomes dull after a single use like scrap similar thing can be seen in plains of idolen its boring  but because of some lore fortuna is a bit better.

i think making every frame character important  giving them a reason that they r  there is important right now its like a factory is mass producing warframe and sending it once a while

Edited August 23, 2019 by Reakacemrz

[0_The_F00l]

According to me you can qualify as a vet if :

Clocked game time in the thousands 

Went through rise and fall of 5 Meta load outs (raise your hands if you remember rhino with boltor, rainbow builds, simulor Mirage, greedy mag with Mesa, jumping trinity with castanas, chroma that did even more damage than now) 

Can clear any of the star chart nodes by picking any weapon or frame in your arsenal without looking at the actual node or the weapon you are picking. 

Can go through missions without stopping to look for directions. 

There can be more but I think that would suffice. 

 

You are stating that there was a progress reset, that is not true, I could still use my old weapons and frames just as effectively with poe and Fortuna. I would term it more as a progress expansion. 

It's not a new summit to climb but another summit that people can hop to from the current one. 

What you suggest is only possible with a game that has linear gameplay, warframe is not that linear. 

We don't need to start from scratch. (I am hoping there will be something different with Railjacks that is a completely different mode than our regular gameplay.)

[Kimimoto]

5 hours ago, 844448 said:

They're more than ready for it

Hexenon was a new resource, Jovian Concord lasted a few days.

Same with both open worlds, but the open worlds had the rep grind which is time gated. They still only lasted for about 2-3 weeks after taking a year to release. Those ain't good results. 

Void Fissures have good results, I believe the new Disruption modes will also have good results on player retention.