Veterans misunderstand why they don't enjoy playing the game anymore

[Tinklzs]

7 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

The best solution for DE is to continue what they're doing. If the content looks good then come back. If not, play Anthem the "Warframe killer".

Know why I played raids during my time in wow? I wanted a challenge.

I played Greater Rifts in Diablo 3 because I wanted a challenge with equal rewards for said challenge.

I play higher tier maps in Path of Exile because I like to push my builds to the limit and I get rewards for my time.

In warframe, I can spend any length of time in a mission and get the same rewards as someone who left at the first rotation, while the mission gets harder. 

They don't need to make new content every few months, I mean hell - Team Fortress 2 hasn't gotten an update in almost TWO YEARS yet players are still religiously playing it. Why is that? Because that repeatable content is rewarding.  Warframe's content is situationally rewarding, that 80 endo is nice at first, until you realize you can get 200, 400, 1600 down the line. Those 2500-3500 credit caches are amazing, until you can make 100x that from index for far less work, with a frame/build you can make in your first 2 hours of playing (rhino). 

 

And the when you suggest someone, with valid criticisms to go play something else, because you cannot find a reason for it - shows you aren't here for discussion but for blind defense. Warframe has many problems that can be fixed, and they won't be fixed by playing something else.  Even Destiny, with all of it's problems, brings in new players while respecting older players, and without alienating them. DE needs to pay attention and take notes from other games that have already gone through these 'phases' and start fixing these problems. 

[Tinklzs]

4 minutes ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Does that make me a vet?

*shrug*

I suppose vet isn't the correct term here, but geared player, so I apologize for using the wrong terminology there. However, the point still stands.

I assume with that cherry pick and ignoring the rest of what I said, you at least understand what I meant?  They completely undermined the grind that PoE/Fortuna added by giving bosses that just crap out the resources, making it so you stay even less in those open worlds (while pretty, have nothing beyond a pretty face, no character actual backstory or anything). leaving only those boss fights (eidolons/orbs) left to do. 

Yet those open worlds have interesting lore behind them, like gara's final fight, yet we can't actually go over there and see that or learn anymore potential lore from it. Nor can we find out other interesting/intriguing lore from fortuna, many areas that look like a battle happened there, but no info to explain what transpired. 

 

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Well, the reason Warframe is so popular is because people believe they can get all the goodies in the game eventually.  Elitism runs counter to that, the making self feel good by making others feel bad.  I have nothing against challenge as long as it's not for the sake of exclusivity.

Maybe I should say one of the reasons.  I personally think the movement controls in the game are so much better than others that any game I've gone back to has felt "clunky".  Same with the targeting/aiming.

Edited August 24, 2019 by RunsWithChainsaws
Addition

[Tinklzs]

2 minutes ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Well, the reason Warframe is so popular is because people believe they can get all the goodies in the game eventually.  Elitism runs counter to that, the making self feel good by making others feel bad.  I have nothing against challenge as long as it's not for the sake of exclusivity.

It is a fact in WoW that not everyone who gets to max level plays Raids or even Heroic Dungeons for that matter. However, despite that fact I don't think that raids or heroic dungeons exclude anyone. If something exists and someone doesn't want to do it, that's their choice/right.     Warframe currently doesn't have anything that is actually challenging, nothing that truly tests builds w/ arcanes or full focus school operators, and I'm not asking for something game-breakingly broken like Payday 2 Death Sentence or anything, where you have to cheese the game, only a handful of loadouts work.

I want all frames to be able to play what would be higher level challenging content, but in a way that fits that frames playstyle, without alienating other frames or making them useless. However, in order to do that, no only would a power ceiling need to be established, but many frames would need to be updated and have a grounded 'role', meaning as you get into higher level content, teamwork, coordination etc would be needed. Not "squad" .levels of coordination or anything, but bringing frames that compliment each other or bring a useful ability to the squad. So you wouldn't bring Rhino so you could tank the damage, but because his CC/Roar is useful. You wouldn't bring banshee for her AoE but for her extra damage to enemies, etc. 

 

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Yeah...too bad people complain about not enough challenge with each bit of more difficult content.  I did mention earlier the treadmill developers allow themselves to be put on when everyone who yells loudest is put top priority.  DE isn't a huge development house.  They are doing a great job trying to satisfy the greatest number of people with the resources they have.

[RunsWithChainsaws]

There is also the issue of the split in the community between people who prefer playing solo and those who insist that Warframe is multiplayer and people must play in groups.  Not all content is appropriate to both types of players.  Some people just don't like people, believe it or not.

[RunsWithChainsaws]

I have question.  Do people actually want more challenging content, or do they want the better rewards for that?  Would they bother with the content just for the sake of the challenge?  Would they do ESO without a public leaderboard?  with only a private one where you compete against your best score?

[Tinklzs]

2 hours ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Yeah...too bad people complain about not enough challenge with each bit of more difficult content.  I did mention earlier the treadmill developers allow themselves to be put on when everyone who yells loudest is put top priority.  DE isn't a huge development house.  They are doing a great job trying to satisfy the greatest number of people with the resources they have.

They have 310 employees according to the wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Extremes. Which is 90 shy of Bethesda's 400 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda_Game_Studios.

So they have plenty.

2 hours ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

There is also the issue of the split in the community between people who prefer playing solo and those who insist that Warframe is multiplayer and people must play in groups.  Not all content is appropriate to both types of players.  Some people just don't like people, believe it or not.

That is a non-issue, the community is split currently between solo and group focused players, that won't change no matter what, and shouldn't be focused on. Warframe is advertised as a co-op looter shooter, in every trailer (besides prime trailers) they show warframes working together for a common goal, including the newest CGI trailer at tennocon.  Yet, like I've said before, volt/mag would be fighting for top spot on kills and excalibur would struggle to get a kill due to those two frames.    And while some players prefer solo, doesn't mean that those that prefer groups should be alienated. If you like solo stuff and don't want to group up - then don't, but just because you don't want to doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't get additional content, even if that content requires other players / teamwork to beat/defeat/complete that content.  Means someone will have to go out of their comfort zone, but worry not the other 99% of Warframe is completely soloable, so don't whine because 1% of it isn't.

1 hour ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

I have question.  Do people actually want more challenging content, or do they want the better rewards for that?  Would they bother with the content just for the sake of the challenge?  Would they do ESO without a public leaderboard?  with only a private one where you compete against your best score?

Why is challenging content and better rewards separate, why can't they be the same? We have arbitrations, which is harder than star chart, with (mostly) better rewards. The duplicate cosmetic rewards + relics not being radiant is a big hit on 'better rewards' but the endo/aura forma/adaptation/rolling guard mods are nice, rest of the rewards are bad though.

Quite a few players do endurance runs just for the fun of it, there is a Youtube channel where he runs for 12-16+ hours just because. 

As for ESO - I don't care for it. Even if DE did something different having the relics be radiant, that isn't enough to do it for me, and truly, there is only one frame that fits ESO - Saryn. So if you don't like Saryn or her playstyle, then ESO isn't for you by association. That's the flawed design DE has adopted, and that same design is what will eventually destroy Warframe.

 

Edit - Also, you can edit your posts.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Tinklzs

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Yeah...my husband plays Saryn in ESO.  I don't have Saryn.

...and I did edit some of my posts previously.

Bethesda...oh what a sad train-wreck example of multiplayer Fallout 76 is.  Good thing DE is better at what they do and has more integrity.

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by RunsWithChainsaws
Addition

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Still kinda disagree with this. Warframe is a live service game, and while I respect de for designing new , ambitious content a couple of times every year, the fact is it still needs to be a sustainable , year long product with meaningful updates and new experiences all year round. Asking your loyal , content starved Vets to take breaks because there's no content isn't a solution. We need regular events and updates that are engaging in between the open worlds and the lore quests .

We already have 40+ frames , hundred of weapons and countless skins. Most systems and HUD are fine. What we need are events, quests, new systems, new game modes, new mechanics and stuff that feels different.

Edited August 25, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Maybe help the mid-level and noobs?  I'm sure it can be quite hilarious.  I remember doing fractals in GW2 when I was an officer in a Brazilian guild.  I was the fractal noob and it was funny as hell for all involved.

Maybe do what passes for decorating the Clan Dojo?

Edited August 25, 2019 by RunsWithChainsaws
Addition

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, Fire2box said:

Warframe is still a game that's barely spoken about the the zeitgeist of gaming. And honestly unless DE changes something or players just do the same content over and over and over being happy as the first time they played it, they'll get to the point where they've done everything too. 

For now the only people who can be happy in warframe are the newer players, because the longer you play and get to know the game the more the flaws will show. 

That's...every game made. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Still kinda disagree with this. Warframe is a live service game, and while I respect de for designing new , ambitious content a couple of times every year, the fact is it still needs to be a sustainable , year long product with meaningful updates and new experiences all year round. Asking your loyal , content starved Vets to take breaks because there's no content isn't a solution. We need regular events and updates that are engaging in between the open worlds and the lore quests .

We already have 40+ frames , hundred of weapons and countless skins. Most systems and HUD are fine. What we need are events, quests, new systems, new game modes, new mechanics and stuff that feels different.

Yep, Empyrean, New War and Duviri.

[RunsWithChainsaws]

Well, if the content has to be "meaningful" it has to go back to when players had an effect on the game...the Solar Rail days, but maybe less exploitive on the part of the players.  To be meaningful, results of the actions of the players need to have a persistent effect, right?  Maybe find some way to do a PvE equivalent of what used to be.

Honestly, I'd be interested to see what DE would produce if people playing the game weren't trying to steer the boat. 😛

Edited August 25, 2019 by RunsWithChainsaws

[Kokomala]

On 2019-08-23 at 10:04 AM, IceColdHawk said:

There are tons of mods being completely useless either due to outdated mechanics, too low stats or just general bad effects.

• There are mods that are highly sought after (primed etc)
• There are strong mods that often appear in loadouts (streamline, intensify etc)
• There are situational mods that are dependent on your build (corrupted mods, adaptation etc) goals.
• There are average mods that are fairly standard use (redirection, stretch, vitality)
• There are weak mods which rarely see use in regular play.

The weak mods either have very niche uses, or are there as a teaching mechanic both for how modding works, but also how mods interact with the game's mechanics and stats. And if you've already learnt modding, then it's an alternative source of endo. You can have content that caters towards the lesser used mods, but you can't have every mod in the game being equally valuable.

Mods in this game are mechanically similar to a collectible card game. As such, it's no surprise that there's a sizable chunk of mods (cards) that aren't very useful.

[kgabor]

5 hours ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

Well, the reason Warframe is so popular is because people believe they can get all the goodies in the game eventually.  Elitism runs counter to that, the making self feel good by making others feel bad.  I have nothing against challenge as long as it's not for the sake of exclusivity.

People also like to have a sense of progress to feel they accomplished something and didn't waste their time.

And i don't think if Warframe was made into a more skill oriented game with less gearchecks, the rewards would be truly exclusive as everyone is free to become better and more experienced in the game.

Imo. Conclave mods and to some extent even some Corrupted mods are good examples of content that can be used as rewards as they are useful and in some cases optional, content specific exclusive skins are also good rewards if they don't dilute the drop tables after you drop them.

5 hours ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

There is also the issue of the split in the community between people who prefer playing solo and those who insist that Warframe is multiplayer and people must play in groups.  Not all content is appropriate to both types of players.  Some people just don't like people, believe it or not.

Couldn't agree more with that.

3 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

They have 310 employees according to the wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Extremes. Which is 90 shy of Bethesda's 400 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda_Game_Studios.

So they have plenty.

That is a non-issue, the community is split currently between solo and group focused players, that won't change no matter what, and shouldn't be focused on. Warframe is advertised as a co-op looter shooter, in every trailer (besides prime trailers) they show warframes working together for a common goal, including the newest CGI trailer at tennocon.  Yet, like I've said before, volt/mag would be fighting for top spot on kills and excalibur would struggle to get a kill due to those two frames.    And while some players prefer solo, doesn't mean that those that prefer groups should be alienated. If you like solo stuff and don't want to group up - then don't, but just because you don't want to doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't get additional content, even if that content requires other players / teamwork to beat/defeat/complete that content.  Means someone will have to go out of their comfort zone, but worry not the other 99% of Warframe is completely soloable, so don't whine because 1% of it isn't.

Why is challenging content and better rewards separate, why can't they be the same? We have arbitrations, which is harder than star chart, with (mostly) better rewards. The duplicate cosmetic rewards + relics not being radiant is a big hit on 'better rewards' but the endo/aura forma/adaptation/rolling guard mods are nice, rest of the rewards are bad though.

Quite a few players do endurance runs just for the fun of it, there is a Youtube channel where he runs for 12-16+ hours just because. 

As for ESO - I don't care for it. Even if DE did something different having the relics be radiant, that isn't enough to do it for me, and truly, there is only one frame that fits ESO - Saryn. So if you don't like Saryn or her playstyle, then ESO isn't for you by association. That's the flawed design DE has adopted, and that same design is what will eventually destroy Warframe.

Eidolons showed that DE can make content that's both soloable and viable as group content. (while i think the drop tables are kinda messed up and could use something like a token system for Arcanes, with things like Energize costing a considerably higher amount, since this content is still timegated and locked to nighttime cycles)

I find Saryn in its current form stupidly broken (i mean the damage numbers Spores can currently reach, with high base numbers on top of damage scaling and the already great debuffs Saryn gives, it's the base numbers that imo. needs to be toned down), but i can still do ESO fine as Banshee, guess i'm a wizard then.

But it's true, DE seems to lack direction and it's to the detriment of the game, no frame should be able to trivialize content.

[Monolake]

There is plenty of content, just very few play it.

Keep in mind that only maybe ~10% of all accs ever created actually play the game, still 1.6% is low, and then even less bother with Vox Solaris grind (which requires maxing United first) - and that locks out bosses and 2 new frames.

The game is still suffering from poor progression design where nothing is clear and resource hell and absolutely requires reading wiki and most people dont bother with that. People who play these types of games dont even mind the grind, what hurts WF the most is everything being obfuscated. And somehow DE only made it worse with Fortuna.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Monolake

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I agree that playing daily or for a bucket load of hours every week isn't something that is sustainable for Warframe.  It's not sustainable for any game.  Eventually a player will be tasked for finding their own fun, meaning, and purpose for playing something.  However I think you misunderstand the complaints.  Sure, some of them might just be "gib me more content reeeee."  But for many of us it's deeper than that.

DE has a very bad track record of not supporting/sustaining new content they throw out.  Even the open world areas are basically just giant tilesets that get ignored once you've completed what you wanted from it.  DE will shove out content and then try to move onto the next biggest thing.  The only way they've ever successfully managed to have us go back to old content is through relic grinding and the occasional need for resources to build things.  However the former is a short grind that can be circumvented by managing the syndicate system and the latter can be ignored entirely if you stockpile resources.

All it would really take is for DE to update the loot tables to these smaller game modes/open worlds whenever a big patch of new content arises.  They're attempting to make railjack be something that sticks around though so we will see how that goes.

The other issue is the gameplay itself.  we've been able to handle hordes efficiently for a long time now.  But it's just getting easier and easier.  DE has resorted to throwing more and more power immune enemies at us or finding ways to turn off our abilities.  And Current day warframes are created with a specific gameplay style in mind and there isn't much variance to their gameplay compared to the older frames.  Instead the variety we get gameplay wise comes from combining that style of play with loadouts.  Which for some increases the grind in a meaningful way.  For others it just means they stop playing sooner till the next frame drops.

Personally speaking I want the devs to overhaul mission structures so actual roles in a team can be made.  And I want warframe synergies to be more plentiful and up front.  This is a coop game afterall.  The enemy AI and AI in general need overhauling.  I feel like Warframe would massively benefit if they "rebooted" the game through these methods.

[(PSN)Ninja_Tennobean]

Even when you stop and come playing a more fulfilling game will make warframe feel even more boring because you done every mission 100,000 times. U know warframe repetitive when u can memorize randomly generated tiles set.

[Ephemiel]

6 hours ago, Monolake said:

There is plenty of content, just very few play it.

Keep in mind that only maybe ~10% of all accs ever created actually play the game, still 1.6% is low, and then even less bother with Vox Solaris grind (which requires maxing United first) - and that locks out bosses and 2 new frames.

The game is still suffering from poor progression design where nothing is clear and resource hell and absolutely requires reading wiki and most people dont bother with that. People who play these types of games dont even mind the grind, what hurts WF the most is everything being obfuscated. And somehow DE only made it worse with Fortuna.

You really going to say that farming standing for an achievement is content? Farming the same missions over and over for weeks, if not months, is "content" now?

[Monolake]

1 hour ago, Ephemiel said:

You really going to say that farming standing for an achievement is content? Farming the same missions over and over for weeks, if not months, is "content" now?

No, Im saying that its locking out the content - people will never play new frames and bosses because of the waitwalls (the daily standing limit which is really low for lower MR), grindwalls and worst of all  - the obfuscation - you wouldn't even know where to farm things without the wiki. So DE spends time and resources on creating content only few play because DE themselves hide it and discourage people from playing.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Monolake

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I agree that playing daily or for a bucket load of hours every week isn't something that is sustainable for Warframe.  It's not sustainable for any game.  Eventually a player will be tasked for finding their own fun, meaning, and purpose for playing something.  However I think you misunderstand the complaints.  Sure, some of them might just be "gib me more content reeeee."  But for many of us it's deeper than that.

DE has a very bad track record of not supporting/sustaining new content they throw out.  Even the open world areas are basically just giant tilesets that get ignored once you've completed what you wanted from it.  DE will shove out content and then try to move onto the next biggest thing.  The only way they've ever successfully managed to have us go back to old content is through relic grinding and the occasional need for resources to build things.  However the former is a short grind that can be circumvented by managing the syndicate system and the latter can be ignored entirely if you stockpile resources.

All it would really take is for DE to update the loot tables to these smaller game modes/open worlds whenever a big patch of new content arises.  They're attempting to make railjack be something that sticks around though so we will see how that goes.

The other issue is the gameplay itself.  we've been able to handle hordes efficiently for a long time now.  But it's just getting easier and easier.  DE has resorted to throwing more and more power immune enemies at us or finding ways to turn off our abilities.  And Current day warframes are created with a specific gameplay style in mind and there isn't much variance to their gameplay compared to the older frames.  Instead the variety we get gameplay wise comes from combining that style of play with loadouts.  Which for some increases the grind in a meaningful way.  For others it just means they stop playing sooner till the next frame drops.

Personally speaking I want the devs to overhaul mission structures so actual roles in a team can be made.  And I want warframe synergies to be more plentiful and up front.  This is a coop game afterall.  The enemy AI and AI in general need overhauling.  I feel like Warframe would massively benefit if they "rebooted" the game through these methods.

In other words: Warframe 2?

I don't disagree here though but, looking at the updates, changes and fixes when they release stuff, I do think we also misunderstand DE's motives and overestimate their ability to make 300 employees as efficient as 500-800. There's a million things people want with a million restrictions included in those demands. We aren't thinking collectively so I'm not expecting DE to fulfill everyone's convent fantasies right away.

Content is only their weakness to those who've played for a VERY LONG TIME. For others, it's freaking overwhelming and it's ONLY Warframe that has this type of reputation.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

In other words: Warframe 2?

I don't disagree here though but, looking at the updates, changes and fixes when they release stuff, I do think we also misunderstand DE's motives and overestimate their ability to make 300 employees as efficient as 500-800. There's a million things people want with a million restrictions included in those demands. We aren't thinking collectively so I'm not expecting DE to fulfill everyone's convent fantasies right away.

Content is only their weakness to those who've played for a VERY LONG TIME. For others, it's freaking overwhelming and it's ONLY Warframe that has this type of reputation.

 

ehhh.  Maybe.  I just feel like the main game feels super dated.  Like I love the new areas and tilesets but the feel of the game is still largely the same.  I think the only time this really changed was with parkour 2.0

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

ehhh.  Maybe.  I just feel like the main game feels super dated.  Like I love the new areas and tilesets but the feel of the game is still largely the same.  I think the only time this really changed was with parkour 2.0

True...and it's supposed to be. The star chart was amazing and gigantic when I first started playing in 2015 but four years later, at 1518 total hours played (as of today), I'm pretty used to them. Lol!

Jupiter and the updated earth sets are insane though and I still havent fully explored Jupiter.  The gas city spy missions are my favorite missions just because of the work put into it...and this is where I think DE had us in mind with the gas city rework, the Earth rework, PoE and Fortuna. Personally, I wouldve kept the old earth and Jupiter tilesets for starchart completion and then revealed new earth, gas city and the open worlds as endgamish setups. This way, the difficulty, balance and all of the vet "fixins" could be implemented without hurting the new player experience. Lore and factions unfolding within the open worlds and new tilesets would've made a big difference and would've better defined progression, IMO of course.

[Fire2box]

17 hours ago, Monolake said:

what hurts WF the most is everything being obfuscated. And somehow DE only made it worse with Fortuna.

like how you need to max rank SU in order to get to little ducks vox solaris standing. I can't even imagine doing that when you get like 10k standing per day max at MR9 let alone lower. 

 

but don't worry. rep grind isn't going to be as bad as plains was.