"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[Kontrollo]

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I'm not framing this as an attack on my person, I am merely pointing out the obvious fact that you've insinuated that my thread was dishonest, a fact that you are now denying. You wouldn't be attributing intentionality to my supposedly flawed presentation if you were merely correcting an honest mistake.

There is clearly a difference between making a flawed argument, and a dishonest argument. Why do you keep insisting on saying I've implied the latter?

 

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Specially how? In what way is that special treatment relevant to the topic of discussion? Be specific; nothing you are saying here answers the question you are being asked. ...

Again, there are "No meaningful PvE rewards locked behind PvP gameplay.". I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat that, honestly. It's relevant because if it already hasn't received the same treatment before the Medallion, then it's not a double standard to exclude the Syndicate from the UM.

Unless, that special treatment is repealed, and the Syndicate can have rewards like the others, that is.

 

20 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Not all game modes, and many modes tied to syndicates will no longer have exclusive rewards after players will be able to access those through Universal Medallions. Tell me again, then, why Conclave deserves special status.

How about you tell me why it has special status? Why are there no items with Mastery to be gained from that Syndicate?

 

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But this isn't even true, the Ventkids don't give exclusive weapons either. Why is the existence of exclusive weapons in a syndicate relevant to the discussion here?

There are Vent Kids rewards that give Mastery points, and they're not even a separate game mode in and of itself. If not for the races, I think they'd be on the level of mining and fishing in terms of gameplay.

[Teridax68]

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

There is clearly a difference between making a flawed argument, and a dishonest argument. Why do you keep insisting on saying I've implied the latter?

Because of this:

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Sure, you're trying to present it that way.

I have brought this up before already, so you have no reason to feign ignorance here: if all you were doing was pointing out a flaw in my argument, why did you claim that I was deliberately trying to present it in a certain, wrong way? Your excuse isn't really holding up.

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Again, there are "No meaningful PvE rewards locked behind PvP gameplay.". I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat that, honestly. It's relevant because if it already hasn't received the same treatment before the Medallion, then it's not a double standard to exclude the Syndicate from the UM.

But no other syndicate has received the same treatment before the Medallion either, that's why they're receiving it. Arbitrarily separating bits of Warframe along terms that are irrelevant to this discussion does not make the separation itself any less irrelevant. We don't talk about how there are "no meaningful scanning rewards" locked behind non-scanning gameplay, so I fail to see why the PvE/PvP dichotomy is relevant here.

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Unless, that special treatment is repealed, and the Syndicate can have rewards like the others, that is.

Like which others? There is no unified syndicate format other than the fact that they rely on the same system of points, rewards, and ranks.

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

How about you tell me why it has special status? Why are there no items with Mastery to be gained from that Syndicate?

But there are, the syndicate offers the three starter frames. It is not up to me to justify your fantasy of Conclave being this special syndicate deserving of special treatment.

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

There are Vent Kids rewards that give Mastery points, and they're not even a separate game mode in and of itself. If not for the races, I think they'd be on the level of mining and fishing in terms of gameplay.

Hold on, just a post ago you were talking about weapons, and now you're pivoting onto Mastery in general, so what is the truth? If we're going to go that abstract, why not talk about the exclusive cosmetics Conclave offers? Also, why are the Vent Kids' lack of a separate game mode relevant here?

[Kontrollo]

Sigh. Ok then, let's roll it back:

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't see why the lack of Mastery-granting exclusive rewards would falsify the premise here, which is founded on progression across all possible metrics, not simply Mastery.

Sure, you're trying to present it that way. However, past precedent speaks a different language, and cosmetics are not meaningful progression. They are what's left when you remove all other options.

I have brought this up before already, so you have no reason to feign ignorance here: if all you were doing was pointing out a flaw in my argument, why did you claim that I was deliberately trying to present it in a certain, wrong way? Your excuse isn't really holding up.

Seems pretty clear to me that you're not (yet?) convinced that there's a flaw in your argument. However, I did not imply you were dishonest.

 

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But no other syndicate has received the same treatment before the Medallion either, that's why they're receiving it. Arbitrarily separating bits of Warframe along terms that are irrelevant to this discussion does not make the separation itself any less irrelevant. We don't talk about how there are "no meaningful scanning rewards" locked behind non-scanning gameplay, so I fail to see why the PvE/PvP dichotomy is relevant here.

Because that dichotomy is what underlies the Conclave Syndicate's special treatment so far. I'm saying that I think it would be ok to treat it the same with regards to the UM (i.e. enable it for Conclave, too) if we get rid of that special treatment, as well.

 

16 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Like which others? There is no unified syndicate format other than the fact that they rely on the same system of points, rewards, and ranks.

But there are, the syndicate offers the three starter frames. It is not up to me to justify your fantasy of Conclave being this special syndicate deserving of special treatment.

Let's stop beating around the bush, ok? If it weren't entirely clear yet: I'm talking about items rewarding Mastery points which are exclusive to a "Syndicate" (i.e. some part of the game or mode whose progression is earned through Standing).

 

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Hold on, just a post ago you were talking about weapons, and now you're pivoting onto Mastery in general, so what is the truth? If we're going to go that abstract, why not talk about the exclusive cosmetics Conclave offers? Also, why are the Vent Kids' lack of a separate game mode relevant here?

The original 6 + 1 Syndicates were the AoH, SM, CS, RV, NL, PS and Conclave, so it was convenient to draw a parallel to those, of course. Only one of them stands out in a very specific way.

It's only relevant insofar that even a minor "Syndicate" has Mastery behind it.

[Teridax68]

14 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Sigh. Ok then, let's roll it back:

Seems pretty clear to me that you're not (yet?) convinced that there's a flaw in your argument.

Because I'm not, and I see no reason why I should be. Your responses here are nothing but vague allusions to some past events that may not even be relevant to the topic of discussion. Your very argument itself as quoted fails to respond to my point: if we're talking about progression in a manner not limited simply to Mastery, what does the history of Conclave have to do with anything?

Quote

 However, I did not imply you were dishonest.

Yes, you did, as per the quote. Perhaps that was not your intent, but in the English language, when you tell someone they're trying to present something a certain way, that implies they are trying to distort facts to push forward an agenda, which is itself generally considered dishonest. The fact that you are merely repeating yourself, rather than actually answering what is being presented to you, does not help your case.

Quote

Because that dichotomy is what underlies the Conclave Syndicate's special treatment so far. I'm saying that I think it would be ok to treat it the same with regards to the UM (i.e. enable it for Conclave, too) if we get rid of that special treatment, as well.

Your argument here is circular: you are saying Conclave is special because it's PvP as opposed to the rest of the game's PvE, yet when questioned as to why that separation is noteworthy, when plenty of other dichotomies exist that don't confer special treatment, your response is that the dichotomy is special because Conclave is special. I am thus at at a loss as to how you expect me to believe that Conclave is in any way special in the context of the matter being discussed.

Quote

Let's stop beating around the bush, ok? If it weren't entirely clear yet: I'm talking about items rewarding Mastery points which are exclusive to a "Syndicate" (i.e. some part of the game or mode whose progression is earned through Standing).

Okay, and? Why is this relevant?

Quote

The original 6 + 1 Syndicates were the AoH, SM, CS, RV, NL, PS and Conclave, so it was convenient to draw a parallel to those, of course. Only one of them stands out in a very specific way.

And? Why is this parallel relevant to the conversation at hand, let alone the quote you are responding to? We're not judging Warframe on its state years ago, we're judging it on its current state, where plenty more syndicates exist.

Quote

It's only relevant insofar that even a minor "Syndicate" has Mastery behind it.

Sure, and what of it? Why is it so important for every syndicate to offer exclusive rewards with Mastery tied to them? Why is that relevant to the subject matter of toning down excessive or unpleasant grind? It sounds like you just really want to make a thread about giving Conclave exclusive Mastery rewards, in which case feel free to post it in the Conclave subforums, but as it stands virtually nothing you are saying here relates to the topic of Universal Medallions, let alone the Hema, to the point where it feels like you're hijacking this topic just to give your pet issue a platform.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Teridax68

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Your very argument itself as quoted fails to respond to my point: if we're talking about progression in a manner not limited simply to Mastery, what does the history of Conclave have to do with anything?

Well, if we don't, that'd imply that the distinction isn't meaningful. Then there should've been no reason in the past that there are no Syndicate weapons in the Conclave like in the other 6, right?

Past me was part of that discussion a long time ago, and even disagrees with my current stance on the topic, funnily enough:

Spoiler

 

 

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, you did, as per the quote. Perhaps that was not your intent, but in the English language, when you tell someone they're trying to present something a certain way, that implies they are trying to distort facts to push forward an agenda, which is itself generally considered dishonest. The fact that you are merely repeating yourself, rather than actually answering what is being presented to you, does not help your case.

I can only try to clarify what I've written so much. Guess we have to agree to disagree on this one, then.

But if you want to keep going, let's have this argument in my native language instead. 😉

 

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, and? Why is this relevant?

Again, because that's how the Conclave Syndicate is treated specially: "No meaningful PvE rewards locked behind PvP gameplay."

 

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And? Why is this parallel relevant to the conversation at hand, let alone the quote you are responding to? We're not judging Warframe on its state years ago, we're judging it on its current state, where plenty more syndicates exist.

Well, that's why was mentioning past precedent. The devs have been careful about PvP rewards ever since. So despite that there are plenty more now, Conclave is still the only "Syndicate" without:

30 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

items rewarding Mastery points which are exclusive to a "Syndicate"

 

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, and what of it? Why is it so important for every syndicate to offer exclusive rewards with Mastery tied to them? Why is that relevant to the subject matter of toning down excessive or unpleasant grind? It sounds like you just really want to make a thread about giving Conclave exclusive Mastery rewards, in which case feel free to post it in the Conclave subforums, but as it stands virtually nothing you are saying here relates to the topic of Universal Medallions

Well, all of what I'm writing is still about:

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I think this thread builds on a false premise with regards to Universal Medallions.

Namely, it presupposes that all "Syndicates" (everything with Standing) have been and are to be treated equally. That's not the case with the Conclave Syndicate, however, as evidenced by the lack of any exclusive reward in it which grants Mastery points. Now compare that to the others.

...

I.e. the flaw in your premise and that the Conclave Syndicate has been treated specially before the UM, too.

 

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, if we don't, that'd imply that the distinction isn't meaningful. Then there should've been no reason in the past that there are no Syndicate weapons in the Conclave like in the other 6, right?

Sure, but there'd be no reason why there should be, either. Not judging here either way, just pointing out your argument isn't going anywhere, and I still don't know why any of this is relevant to the question of grinding in Conclave.

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Past me was part of that discussion a long time ago, and even disagrees with my current stance on the topic, funnily enough:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

How do two comments you've since disowned on an ancient thread about putting more stuff in Conclave even begin to relate to this thread? Your posts there don't even talk about the distinction between Conclave and other syndicates: what are you even trying to achieve here?

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I can only try to clarify what I've written so much. Guess we have to agree to disagree on this one, then.

But if you want to keep going, let's have this argument in my native language instead. 😉

This is a complete non-sequitur. You can't claim to have clarified anything when the only thing you have done is deny the obvious meaning of what you've said, nor will speaking in a different language change the fact that what you've said doesn't align with what you claim to have said.

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Again, because that's how the Conclave Syndicate is treated specially: "No meaningful PvE rewards locked behind PvP gameplay."

But then if that's what you mean by special treatment, then Conclave's special treatment has no relevance to the matter at hand, and was therefore never even worth bringing up. Just because something has some difference from something else does not automatically make that difference relevant in every possible discussion featuring both things.

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, that's why was mentioning past precedent. The devs have been careful about PvP rewards ever since. So despite that there are plenty more now, Conclave is still the only "Syndicate" without:

But then, once again, that "past precedent" has no relevance to the matter at hand, which is the topic of easing instances of painful grinding. It doesn't matter whether or not DE has added exclusive Mastery items to Conclave, the fact remains that the grind through Conclave is unpleasant to many, just like the grind for the Hema or Sibear, and that Universal Medallions could've helped in the same way they could've helped grind through other syndicates.

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, all of what I'm writing is still about:

But what you've written is utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. If you have a problem with Conclave not being given exclusive Mastery items... sure, but why should anyone care in the context of this discussion? If this is how Conclave is treated differently from other syndicates, why should that particular aspect stop Universal Medallions from applying in the same way?

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I.e. the flaw in your premise and that the Conclave Syndicate has been treated specially before the UM, too.

But it's not special treatment, it's just a fact of Conclave's offerings. If you want to go ahead and claim that this makes Conclave special, then sure, but once again, that fails to justify how Conclave is special in terms of featuring grinding, which is the matter being discussed. I'm not here to talk about how poorly Conclave has been treated over the years or whatever, my very simple point is that Conclave, like pretty much everything in Warframe, features a grinding component, one that many players dislike, which Universal Medallions could thus help with in the same respect as with any other syndicate.

[Kontrollo]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but there'd be no reason why there should be, either. Not judging here either way, just pointing out your argument isn't going anywhere, and I still don't know why any of this is relevant to the question of grinding in Conclave.

If the distinction isn't meaningful, do we agree then? Because here's what I'd like to see, at a minimum: Exclusive Mastery in the form of Conclave Syndicate weapons (like what the Zylok seems to have been meant for at some point), and ending that special treatment. Then enable the Universal Medallion for Conclave, too.

Win-win for everyone.

 

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

How do two comments you've since disowned on an ancient thread about putting more stuff in Conclave even begin to relate to this thread? Your posts there don't even talk about the distinction between Conclave and other syndicates: what are you even trying to achieve here?

Emphasis mine. You're jumping to conclusions. I have not specified in what way I disagree with my past self. Although by now, it should be clear from context.

 

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a complete non-sequitur. You can't claim to have clarified anything when the only thing you have done is deny the obvious meaning of what you've said, nor will speaking in a different language change the fact that what you've said doesn't align with what you claim to have said.

As I said, agree to disagree. I've said it clearly, repeated it several times, and with that my intention should've been clarified to anyone: "There is clearly a difference between making a flawed argument, and a dishonest argument."

If you want to read more into what I've written, you'll be alone with that.

 

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But then, once again, that "past precedent" has no relevance to the matter at hand, which is the topic of easing instances of painful grinding. It doesn't matter whether or not DE has added exclusive Mastery items to Conclave, the fact remains that the grind through Conclave is unpleasant to many, just like the grind for the Hema or Sibear, and that Universal Medallions could've helped in the same way they could've helped grind through other syndicates.

It does, see above.

 

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But what you've written is utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. If you have a problem with Conclave not being given exclusive Mastery items... sure, but why should anyone care in the context of this discussion? If this is how Conclave is treated differently from other syndicates, why should that particular aspect stop Universal Medallions from applying in the same way?

Well, you've said there's a double standard in treating Conclave specially with respect to the UM. But that's where the flaw lies, Conclave has been treated specially before, too. So it is entirely relevant to the matter at hand.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Waht. Wait are you implying there are ways it's not hypocritical? 

[Dragazer]

Yeah i agree that its BS Hema still has that ridiculous research requirement with DE's flimsy excuse. However it only makes sense PvP rewards should be obtainable by actually participating in PvP.

On another note it feels hypocritical of DE to say they want to value players time and effort in the Hema research case, but went ahead and nerfed riven dispositions on mods that ppl have spent thousands of plat on and/or spent hundreds of hours kuva farming to reroll for the perfect stats

[Aesthier]

On 2019-09-15 at 2:29 AM, Quimoth said:

Like I mentioned, I doubt any founders would mind if people could buy (e.g. not trough platinum but trough actual purchases) these founder items.

On the right hand side it does say: "snag exclusive items that will never be available again." e.g. if you read that this applies to all items in the bundle than DE indeed cannot rerelease this content.

 

This founder would.

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

If the distinction isn't meaningful, do we agree then? Because here's what I'd like to see, at a minimum: Exclusive Mastery in the form of Conclave Syndicate weapons (like what the Zylok seems to have been meant for at some point), and ending that special treatment. Then enable the Universal Medallion for Conclave, too.

Win-win for everyone.

Sure, Conclave can have exclusive weapons, except this is not a thread about Conclave, or its lack of exclusive weapons, nor is the addition of exclusive weapons necessary to re-enabling Universal Medallions. Why hijack this thread with this kind of issue when you could be making a separate thread?

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Emphasis mine. You're jumping to conclusions. I have not specified in what way I disagree with my past self. Although by now, it should be clear from context.

And I haven't specified how you disagreed either, I merely referred to you outright telling me here that you disagree with your past self: that's not jumping to conclusions, that's merely repeating what has already been said. Unless, of course, you now disagree with your past self from a post ago and had another change of heart.

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

As I said, agree to disagree. I've said it clearly, repeated it several times, and with that my intention should've been clarified to anyone: "There is clearly a difference between making a flawed argument, and a dishonest argument."

If you want to read more into what I've written, you'll be alone with that.

If I tell someone that two plus two is four (base ten), and they tell me we're just going to have to "agree to disagree", I'm not going to agree on that, I'm just going to point out that they're wrong, because they are. In this particular case, I referred to the exact words you used and rationally explained what was wrong with them, so responding with "agree to disagree" makes it sound like you believe the expression is some kind of magic formula, one that can handwave any point made that doesn't sit well with you. You yourself have admitted that English is not your native language, so the fact that you've continued to double down on the matter by accusing me of misreading you, instead of considering the possibility you may simply have written down your sentence wrong, only further underlines an unhealthy degree of stubbornness, and an unwillingness to admit when you are clearly wrong.

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

It does, see above.

Above where? No part of your post justifies the relevance of your comment, and in fact your first portion of your response attempts to completely derail conversation onto your pet Conclave request of the day.

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, you've said there's a double standard in treating Conclave specially with respect to the UM. But that's where the flaw lies, Conclave has been treated specially before, too. So it is entirely relevant to the matter at hand.

But by the standard you yourself are setting, every syndicate has been treated "specially" relative to the others: the Ventkids don't have any exclusive weapons, and instead offer a vehicle available nowhere else. Simaris's means of progression relies on a minigame that doesn't advance any other syndicate. The Quills' progression relies exclusively on one extremely specific piece of game content, and Vox Solaris's progression on another, in contrast to the much broader means of progression of the six rival syndicates (and note how those syndicates are the only ones to feature a rivalry/alliance system). In this respect, practically every syndicate is "special" relative to each other, but as said already, that special treatment is not relevant to the fact that they all feature a degree of grinding, just like Conclave. This is why it makes sense for Universal Medallions to apply to them, just as it should to Conclave.

[el_chanis]

3 hours ago, Aesthier said:

This founder would.

and you are the absolute minority. Most of them (at least every single founder i have ever met/read, and i have been playing this game for 6 years) doesn't want the exclusive founder packs being exclusive. Even DE doesn't want it to. That doesn't change that they are legaly bind and won't do anything about it. 

That being said, it's not your opinion that matters. Many vets also wanted melee kept the innate punch through, and yet here we are... 

[Xzorn]

I don't see how the two are related. Hema is a cost that has to be met while Medallions are a gain that was removed.

That's not to say the claims around Hema were... lets call it "inaccurate" from the start. Warframe has always made gains easier over time for every element of the game. That includes Hema. Claiming "effort put in" as a means of reasoning isn't good ground to stand on in this game. I can't think of a situation that's held up over time.

[Aesthier]

9 hours ago, el_chanis said:

and you are the absolute minority. Most of them

As if you have personally met or even know "most" of the founders.

Do you have proof that my opinion is the minority? I never claimed that my opinion was a majority however you are claiming that your opinion is so the onus is on you to prove it.

 

Take a good look at the contradiction in your post above.

You just "quoted" a post, by me, a founder who wants exclusive founder items to remain exclusive. And then you type that you have never read such a thing.

So what your saying is that you either ignore anything that runs counter to your own opinion or falsify facts to support your own opinions?

My suspicion is that you have no substantial proof as to what the "majority" of founders want or ever wanted. Just the opinion of those who you are willing to accept.

 

As far as what DE wants or doesn't I will leave that up to DE to state as those are the only people who really can make such claims.

 

9 hours ago, el_chanis said:

That being said, it's not your opinion that matters.

I would point out that your opinion and my own hold the same amount of value to the developers be that value large or small only they know.

My guess is you post here because you are passionate about the subject and I applaud that. (That's what we are all supposed to do so that developers can make informed decisions right?)

I have always believed that as a consumer you should be ready to voice your opinion concerning the products you enjoy, or in this case want to enjoy more.

I also believe that any product maker should consider the opinions of its customers albeit with some measure of careful scrutiny and facts based out of the statistical information only they would know.

However I don't agree with a consumer trying to beat contradictory opinions, into verbal submission by presenting speculations and unsubstantiated statistics as facts and especially not by claiming that they speak for the company or anyone other than themselves.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Aesthier

[FrostDragoon]

9 hours ago, Aesthier said:

This founder would.

I understand why DE would want to keep their promises to their founders, and there are a multitude of other options for monetization that they are currently using, so that's not really a consideration either. However, I think exclusivity breeds a toxic version of "fear of missing out" in these kinds of games, and it would be better if there were fewer players with your attitude toward it around. Nothing personal against you, of course, but that particular attitude is what feeds a lot of the nonsense we've seen in MTX in the last 15 years becoming more and more egregious for games in general.

[Aesthier]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I understand why DE would want to keep their promises to their founders, and there are a multitude of other options for monetization that they are currently using, so that's not really a consideration either. However, I think exclusivity breeds a toxic version of "fear of missing out" in these kinds of games, and it would be better if there were fewer players with your attitude toward it around. Nothing personal against you, of course, but that particular attitude is what feeds a lot of the nonsense we've seen in MTX in the last 15 years becoming more and more egregious for games in general.

Fewer players with my attitude?

You mean that there should have been less players that wanted to see Warframe grow at a time DE desperately needed funding and we put our money on the line to support that growth with the promise of specific returns?

Returns that at least two of have been made obsolete or downright removed.

I don't think you really understand my attitude at all then.

 

Let me state it clearly.

 

I do not think that "one time only" event packages should ever exist unless they are very closely similar to the scenario DE faced at the time they released founder packages.

However the MR granted by those packages should be removed (to include the items from previous founder packages including my own) because that is an unfair advantage no matter how you try to look at it.

As far as exclusiveness if it is exclusive to the grind or a commitment of long hours in the game then that is fine with me.

I If it is achievable through game then game on.

If it isn't then It shouldn't count toward your overall progression or give any progressional advantage such as the extra distiller or extractor, and possible increase in MR as was given to founders.(Again more stuff that could/should be removed or equalized across the board)

 

I agree with you in regards that exclusiveness is overused to induce FoMO and simply screws over players in the long run.

Nightwave in my mind is a double edged sword. It did a lot regarding the availability of certain items on a players schedule rather than the companies schedule however I still think it could be implemented better in regards to generating FoMO. (Although this last one was generous in the amount of time given so that newer players might reach their goals)

 

In the end I don't think the game needs less of any player group because in the end it takes player numbers and different perspectives to keep the game running and quite honestly I don't want to see this game disappear regardless of how many trivial issues I might occasionally get frustrated with.

 

On a side note I gave you an upvote because you were actually very polite and stated your concerns in a civil manner. Thank you for that!

 

In regards to the OP' post:

Concerning the items the OP brought up I wouldn't be upset if the price of the Hema was reduced or the drop rates of spores increased however the fact for me is that I don't really care about the grind to get it and when I decide I must have one I will complete the grind to get it.

As far as Universal medallions are concerned. I get what the OP is saying is that it is advertised as "Universal" and should be implemented as such if it is to be named that. At the same time I completely understand why DE would decide against having it count towards PVP content. If PVP players want the rewards from PVE content they they have to do PVE content to get them, why should the reverse not hold true. My thought would be to remove the word Universal and title it something else.

Again neither of these items is comparable to a one time only event item.

 

I suppose my point is that both of the items the OP brings up are exclusive in regards to the fact they require a grind however I do not see either of these as a "one time only" event or purchase thus references to one time only event items (such as founder's items) really hold no bearing in regards to the OP's post.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Aesthier

[Marine027]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb el_chanis:

and you are the absolute minority. Most of them (at least every single founder i have ever met/read, and i have been playing this game for 6 years) doesn't want the exclusive founder packs being exclusive. Even DE doesn't want it to. That doesn't change that they are legaly bind and won't do anything about it. 

That being said, it's not your opinion that matters. Many vets also wanted melee kept the innate punch through, and yet here we are... 

But your opinion does? Because?

Seriously this "minority" as you call it could and would sue DE if they break this promise, it is very highly illegal in canada and they would have stay for it even it would be only the minor part of people, that is like a racist or insultin opinion saying those have no rigths because they are in the minority.

Let me tell this next time to a person ina wheelchair in the bus i taking its spot away because his/her "opinion not matters".

Edited September 21, 2019 by Marine027
Typo

[Kontrollo]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, Conclave can have exclusive weapons, except this is not a thread about Conclave, or its lack of exclusive weapons, nor is the addition of exclusive weapons necessary to re-enabling Universal Medallions. Why hijack this thread with this kind of issue when you could be making a separate thread?

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Above where? No part of your post justifies the relevance of your comment, and in fact your first portion of your response attempts to completely derail conversation onto your pet Conclave request of the day.

I'm not hijacking this thread, I keep responding to your questions and explaining what I feel you're missing in what I'm trying to point out.

Namely that Conclave has always been receiving special treatment, so receiving special treatment in this matter is not a double standard. And I'd say we even agree on that the special treatment should end.

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And I haven't specified how you disagreed either, I merely referred to you outright telling me here that you disagree with your past self: that's not jumping to conclusions, that's merely repeating what has already been said. Unless, of course, you now disagree with your past self from a post ago and had another change of heart.

You said I've disowned my comments. I didn't.

I only disagree with one thing I've even pointed out in this very thread. Feel free to reread what I've written so far.

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But by the standard you yourself are setting, every syndicate has been treated "specially" relative to the others: the Ventkids don't have any exclusive weapons, and instead offer a vehicle available nowhere else. Simaris's means of progression relies on a minigame that doesn't advance any other syndicate. The Quills' progression relies exclusively on one extremely specific piece of game content, and Vox Solaris's progression on another, in contrast to the much broader means of progression of the six rival syndicates (and note how those syndicates are the only ones to feature a rivalry/alliance system). In this respect, practically every syndicate is "special" relative to each other, but as said already, that special treatment is not relevant to the fact that they all feature a degree of grinding, just like Conclave. This is why it makes sense for Universal Medallions to apply to them, just as it should to Conclave.

That's a strawman. I've already explained repeatedly in what way the Conclave Syndicate is treated specially.

 

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I don't see how the two are related. Hema is a cost that has to be met while Medallions are a gain that was removed.

...

They went back on an announcement, but the status quo hasn't actually changed. Unlike what happened back in the day when they removed potato blueprints from the Conclave rewards.

Bit of a difference there, don't you agree?

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I'm not hijacking this thread, I keep responding to your questions and explaining what I feel you're missing in what I'm trying to point out.

But what I'm "missing" is this grudge you've been holding about Conclave that has strictly nothing to do with the topic of discussion. You're not simply responding to my questions, you're diverting conversation towards a subject that has nothing to do with what this thread is talking about.

25 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Namely that Conclave has always been receiving special treatment, so receiving special treatment in this matter is not a double standard. And I'd say we even agree on that the special treatment should end.

But as already pointed out, the "special treatment" has nothing to do with what's being discussed, and would not prevent Universal Medallions from applying to Conclave. I could not care less about whether or not Conclave should receive more exclusive rewards within the bounds of this discussion, I just think it shouldn't be treated as special in terms of grinding. More broadly, Conclave could certainly use a lot of help, but that's not what's being discussed here, no matter how hard you try to yank this thread in that direction.

25 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

You said I've disowned my comments. I didn't.

I only disagree with one thing I've even pointed out in this very thread. Feel free to reread what I've written so far.

You've explicitly stated that you disagree with your past self's stance. If you want to finagle your way out of conceding any point as if this were a high-school debating club... don't, it's embarrassing, contributes nothing to discussion, and simply makes you come across as wanting to win the argument, rather than argue honestly.

25 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

That's a strawman. I've already explained repeatedly in what way the Conclave Syndicate is treated specially.

I have taken multiple examples and contrasted them to the one presented in order to give it more perspective. That is the literal opposite of a straw man. It is your own, tendentious portrayal of Conclave's "special treatment" that is a misrepresentation of its relation to Universal Medallions, to such a degree that essentially nothing you have put forth even relates to the topic at hand.

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I don't see how the two are related. Hema is a cost that has to be met while Medallions are a gain that was removed.

And in both cases, players have asked for the Hema to be made cheaper to research, and for Universal Medallions to be made applicable to Conclave once more, because both instances represent a grind many consider unpleasant. That is the connecting thread, as illustrated in the OP's many examples. It is also not the first time DE had implemented a convenience only to pull back, as infamously happened during the Vacuum update where we briefly got the universal vacuum we wanted, but at a significant decrease in radius (which then got removed once more in favor of mods).

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

But what I'm "missing" is this grudge you've been holding about Conclave that has strictly nothing to do with the topic of discussion. You're not simply responding to my questions, you're diverting conversation towards a subject that has nothing to do with what this thread is talking about

Implying that what I've been talking about is subjective and I'm being emotional.

But what I've written is objectively provable, the evidence is there, and my reasoning is logical.

 

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But as already pointed out, the "special treatment" has nothing to do with what's being discussed, and would not prevent Universal Medallions from applying to Conclave. I could not care less about whether or not Conclave should receive more exclusive rewards within the bounds of this discussion, I just think it shouldn't be treated as special in terms of grinding. More broadly, Conclave could certainly use a lot of help, but that's not what's being discussed here, no matter how hard you try to yank this thread in that direction.

Of course you would keep insisting on this, because you don't want to acknowledge that there's a flaw in your premise.

 

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You've explicitly stated that you disagree with your past self's stance. If you want to finagle your way out of conceding any point as if this were a high-school debating club... don't, it's embarrassing, contributes nothing to discussion, and simply makes you come across as wanting to win the argument, rather than argue honestly.

You keep trying to pin me down on things you read into my comments. Stop.

 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I have taken multiple examples and contrasted them to the one presented in order to give it more perspective. That is the literal opposite of a straw man. It is your own, tendentious portrayal of Conclave's "special treatment" that is a misrepresentation of its relation to Universal Medallions, to such a degree that essentially nothing you have put forth even relates to the topic at hand.

Don't try to weasel out of this one. I've made it abundantly clear in what way the Conclave Syndicate has been treated specially. With this in mind, your examples are meaningless. It was a strawman, that's not up for debate.

 

15 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And in both cases, players have asked for the Hema to be made cheaper to research, and for Universal Medallions to be made applicable to Conclave once more, because both instances represent a grind many consider unpleasant. ...

As stated before, I agree they should reduce the grind. I disagree that it should be through the UM, unless the special treatment of the Conclave Syndicate is ended (with everything that implies). There are plenty of suggestions in the Conclave Feedback to increase Standing and Affinity, too.

[Teridax68]

35 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Implying that what I've been talking about is subjective and I'm being emotional.

But what I've written is objectively provable, the evidence is there, and my reasoning is logical.

But it is and you are. It is not an objective necessity for Conclave to receive exclusive weapons or whatever, even though it'd be nice, and more to the point, none of this has any relevance to the topic of Universal Medallions, let alone the Hema. There is no "reasoning" to be had in your post, you're just hijacking this thread to make demands about Conclave, because nobody listens to you on the Conclave subforum.

Quote

Of course you would keep insisting on this, because you don't want to acknowledge that there's a flaw in your premise.

Which flaw? As established already, my point is simple, self-evident, and not the one you've been wanting to discuss. Trying to circle back to something you've said before that was already disproven will do you no good.

Quote

You keep trying to pin me down on things you read into my comments. Stop.

No, you stop. You're the one who keeps denying things you've clearly said, then pinning the blame onto me for misinterpreting you when there is no such room for misinterpretation. The worst part is that all of this is because you just felt like linking to some old thread that, yet again, had nothing to do with this discussion. If you want to stop being called out on your rambling, perhaps stay on-topic, or at the very least try to at least say one thing in your post that relates to this thread, as currently you have failed to achieve even that little.

Quote

Don't try to weasel out of this one. I've made it abundantly clear in what way the Conclave Syndicate has been treated specially. With this in mind, your examples are meaningless. It was a strawman, that's not up for debate.

I'm not trying to weasel out of anything, I am presenting the situation as it is, and pointing out that you are using words you clearly do not know the meaning of, while also using deliberately vague and ambiguous expressions in an attempt to conflate subjects that do not relate to each other, in this case the question of "special treatment" being used due to Conclave's lack of exclusive Mastery items, yet applied to wanting immunity to Universal Medallions and their capacity for alleviating the grind. It is you who are grasping at straws to excuse your hijacking of this discussion, and trying to weasel your way out of having to concede a point you have clearly lost. Just because you feel strongly about something does not mean your every thought and claim is objective, and insisting that something is a strawman (when it clearly isn't) purely through repetition, without even a hint of explanation, is itself not a rational argument.

Quote

As stated before, I agree they should reduce the grind. I disagree that it should be through the UM, unless the special treatment of the Conclave Syndicate is ended (with everything that implies). There are plenty of suggestions in the Conclave Feedback to increase Standing and Affinity, too.

In other words, you want to hold one issue hostage until your entirely separate demands are met. As stated already, see the above conversation with Stormdragon on the matter, as well as the other thread I linked that discusses the toxic gatekeeping mentality of some players, a problem that unfortunately appears to be especially notable in the Conclave community.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Teridax68

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Implying that what I've been talking about is subjective and I'm being emotional.

But what I've written is objectively provable, the evidence is there, and my reasoning is logical.

Given you did the exact same thing to me in another thread, it definitely seems like you have some sort of grudge. Either that or an obsession.

And whilst what you've written may be provable, it doesn't make it relevant. Rhino's Iron Skin benefiting from Arcanes is completely provable, I can provide you with the evidence of it. Doesn't make it relevant to the thread, which is what they're arguing.

Just saying.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

But it is and you are. It is not an objective necessity for Conclave to receive exclusive weapons or whatever ...

Are we now on the level of ad hominems or have you just not been paying attention? I'm still hoping for the latter, given how you still haven't figured out in what way I disagree with my past self.

 

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Given you did the exact same thing to me in another thread, it definitely seems like you have some sort of grudge. Either that or an obsession.

And whilst what you've written may be provable, it doesn't make it relevant. Rhino's Iron Skin benefiting from Arcanes is completely provable, I can provide you with the evidence of it. Doesn't make it relevant to the thread, which is what they're arguing.

Just saying.

Well, regarding this thread here I can't help it. I think I've made myself clear enough already, but it still feels like that's not the case.

Your case was a bit different, but not entirely unrelated.

 

What I've written is only not relevant if you ignore the past. What are you trying to say? That we've always been at war with Eurasia? (To make a bad analogy)

[FrostDragoon]

6 hours ago, Aesthier said:

You mean that there should have been less players that wanted to see Warframe grow at a time DE desperately needed funding and we put our money on the line to support that growth with the promise of specific returns?

You know that's not what I was referring to.

6 hours ago, Aesthier said:

In the end I don't think the game needs less of any player group...

It isn't the players I think we need less of, just the attitude that promotes companies abusing FOMO at the players' expense.

Excal Prime is probably an acceptable exception to the rule, for the reasons you stated, but overall what we saw was years of them taking it that next step in unhealthy ways--the Prime Vault is the most exemplar among them, but event-specific mods for events we don't get to see/play anymore would be another where it seems extremely unhealthy. I think this mod is the most egregious example...

The problem with abusing FOMO is that it has a demotivating effect on the people who actually do miss out. I've known people who quit playing permanently when they missed the chance to get certain weapons before they went into the vault just because they were too new at the time and the relics needed were from a very specific farm they couldn't solo. Even if you can buy the parts from other players (for gouged prices) and that stuff comes out of the vault from time to time, the damage was done.

[el_chanis]

8 hours ago, Marine027 said:

But your opinion does? Because?

 

it doesn't, at all. As i said before, DE needs some SERIOUS SHT to take notice of pretty much anything, and they admited this with the last Rahetalius incident. Most of the time, things fly right over their head. People complaint over the Prime Access since the very first unvault, and they changed it only after Jim Sterling made a video about it. Thats like 3 years and 6 o 7 unvaults of utter oblivious ignorance from their part.

I noticed a pattern with their desing process, they actualy hear community's feedback, if, and only if, the subject is already in their schedule. Thats why we see so many reworks delayed and launched with the respective Prime. The melee 3.0 was already in the making when they changed the melee slide, and rivens where about the get released when they nerfed the tonkor (and the first rivens where Rifle ones).

Trust me. There is very little in this forums that has ever made a change in Warframe.