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5 minutes ago, (XB1)Xebu said:

Da qui il mio suggerimento di affrontare tali carenze e conservare ancora la sua attuale utilità.

Ovviamente, non tutti i frame devono essere di alto livello, molti no. La bellezza di Warframe è che ogni fotogramma ha uno scopo, una specialità, o qualche USP, Ember sta cercando di perdere il suo.

Penso solo che possa ancora essere la brace che conosciamo E la brace che vogliamo!

PS Non importa Ignis ma preferisco Amprex, Atomos, Arca o il mio osceno Zaw e un frame veloce per quello scopo, provo a mescolare le cose tanto quanto pratico.

The discussion is broader. DE wants to rework the heat damage. Ember's new abilities serve this purpose. The new passive is perfect as it is (with affinity radius), the 1 is right because it spam the fire that spreads between the enemies proc armor stripping. The 2 is good for damage reduction and for the bost of the damage, the 3 is good for radial tripping armor, and the 4 I hope will be like the 4 of Saryn and the 4 of Equinox (if not what nuke is it?). DE thought Ember about the new type of heat damage, things should be seen this way.

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It's a difficult topic to discuss, because so many players have been asking for a Vauban rework for so long, and we've still yet to playtest a kit change that seems to deliver everything players have asked for... yet I have to agree that the kit as evidenced looks like it has a few issues. While the rework will certainly improve Vauban, I don't think it will fix all of his problems, and it looks like it may also introduce some new issues:

  • The new 1 looks promising, though to some extent I'm not certain how good the ability will be in the end, because the ability boils down to a slightly more complex version of Wisp's Shock Mote, on a frame known for being able to lock down a whole room with a single button press. Sure, Bastille is static and the new Tesla follows Vauban around (before sticking to enemies), but wouldn't it still just be simpler to press 4 at a difficult time, rather than charge up a bunch of rollers?
  • I fully agree with the OP, I think quiver-abilities are a much more interesting idea on paper than in practice: the idea is to have a bag of tricks to select and use at the right opportunity, but the reality is that instead of having one great ability, the result is usually a whole bunch of crap or redundant effects with maybe one or two vaguely useful options. In this case, I think the damage amp is probably going to be the only deployable worth using:
    • The "sticky Ripline" is basically just a mini-Vortex. Why use that when you could just cast Vortex?
    • The nail grenade from what was showcased looks like it has terrible damage, even though that seems to be its only function. It's a far cry from the turret players have been asking for, and in this respect also feels redundant relative to Vauban's new orbital strike in how both seem to fill the niche of area denial through damage.
    • The boost pad looks like an even more anemic version of Bounce. I don't see why anyone would use this ability other than to troll teammates, as open-world travel will be faster in Archwing anyway.
    • The damage amp is useful by default simply because a damage amp will never not be useful in a game like Warframe. It is, however, an utterly boring ability with no real gameplay (you just press 2 to refresh the boost on yourself and allies), so while it will give Minelayer and Vauban some usefulness, it does so in a manner that is unlikely to be truly fun.
  • Orbital Strike looks visually impressive, for sure, but as mentioned in the OP, is also slow, and doesn't seem to have truly impressive damage, which raises the question as to how it actually scales. The animation also looks really awkward, and seems to interfere with Vauban's movement and other actions.
  • Merging Bastille and Vortex looks like a good move, and the armor strip, while overused as a mechanic, will certainly help Vauban deal damage to enemies with his other abilities (assuming their damage is worth anything). I feel there's more that could've been done to make Vortex interesting, as it was meant to be Vauban's most expensive/powerful ability and is easily outperformed now by Larva, but at least now it's attached to another powerful effect.

So overall, I'd say my biggest concern with the new Vauban is that it looks like he's being given damage, yet I don't know how well that damage will actually perform in higher levels, since it seems to be purely ability-based. Beyond that, though, it also looks like he's going to still have a huge degree of redundancy in his mechanics, to the point where his two strongest effects are likely to just be Bastille and that boring-yet-useful damage amp. I also don't think the rework adequately resolves the question of Vauban's viability and survivability against ability-immune enemies, since it looks like he'll still be entirely reliant on his ability-based CC to protect himself against enemies, enemies that at higher levels will often be able to ignore those effects completely and vaporize him.

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14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So overall, I'd say my biggest concern with the new Vauban is that it looks like he's being given damage, yet I don't know how well that damage will actually perform in higher levels, since it seems to be purely ability-based. Beyond that, though, it also looks like he's going to still have a huge degree of redundancy in his mechanics, to the point where his two strongest effects are likely to just be Bastille and that boring-yet-useful damage amp. I also don't think the rework adequately resolves the question of Vauban's viability and survivability against ability-immune enemies, since it looks like he'll still be entirely reliant on his ability-based CC to protect himself against enemies, enemies that at higher levels will often be able to ignore those effects completely and vaporize him.

Yeah, as it stands right now, this rework haven't fixed the overall issues with Vauban's kit. He is still very squishy, still very CC reliant and still full of gimmicks.

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6 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I agreed that Minelayer is still a piece of garbage.

Tether = Vortex exists.

Nailgun = Orbital Strike and weapons exist (however, a lingering DPS-field could be attached to Orbital Strike so it feels less empty. Along with making Orbital Strike work like a proximity mine = absolutely golden!).

Speed pad = Lol. What a joke.

Damage amp = Good, but boring.

 

As for your replacments, I feel the Teleportation pad is kinda... not too useful (while exploitative in niche situations). Jammer looks much better, imo. What I feel Vauban misses though, is some kind of defensive utility skill.

Thus here's my replacement idea:

BUNKER

  • Vauban tosses a ball which deploys a moderate-size dome of protection (think Frost's Snow Globe without the pushback and slowdown, and also a bit weaker and a tad smaller)
  • Max 6 Bunkers can be placed at once.
  • Vauban can pick up a Bunker (press X) to make it a smaller dome of personal protection (for movable defense)
  • Allies inside a Bunker (Vauban too ofc) gain a damage amp (similar to the Damage amp from Minelayer) and a reloadspeed bonus - this gives it some utility aside from just being protection.
  • Augment: Fortification = Allies (Vauban too ofc) inside a Bunker gain X shields (can gain Overhisleds) and X% of max ammo every second.

 

I'd like to add in a defensive barrier/wall suggestion for Vauban, but my fear is that the community and feedback would piggy back at it to be some sort of poor-man Snow Globe or something.

 

The Telepad suggestion was to give Vauban a quick getaway while giving him some recovery every once in a while. I felt with it, it could even be a useful "utility" even in Spy Missions or when you want to quickly get to a point attacked by enemies. Overall, it was made to help with Vauban's great weakness against ranged enemies.

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I completely agree with the criticism, and I feel Minelayer is a good example of why forcing quiver-style abilities tends to produce a whole bunch of mediocre abilities instead of a single, good ability. Out of the four effects proposed, the damage amp seems like the only one that'll be worth using, and even then the ability is supremely boring, adding strictly no gameplay to Vauban or his allies' playstyle, and instead just warranting constant refreshment via repeated cast, something Wisp already does far better by laying down infinite-duration deployables allies can walk into to refresh (incidentally, his new 1 looks like a more complicated version of her Shock Mote, to say nothing of how redundant the effect is when Vauban can lock down far more enemies far more quickly with just one Bastille). With this in mind, I'd personally scrap the quiver effect and look for a single ability Vauban would want to use, such as the following (with placeholder numbers):

2 - Sentry: Vauban lays down a force field at the target point that lasts for 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds, up to a maximum of 3. While out, the force field intercepts all enemy projectiles within 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 meters, and fires them back at attackers with a 35 / 40 / 45 / 50x damage multiplier. Costs 50 Energy.

So give Vauban the turret ability players have been asking for, while also adding in an element of protection that he desperately needs, without simply giving him yet another damage reduction steroid that seems to be getting slapped onto every frame nowadays. The ability would be useful against all factions save for the Infested (though at that point Vortex would be better anyway), and feed into his utility in a more interesting manner than a generic damage boost.

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I'm clearly in the minority here but I really like minelayer, or at least the tripwire and concuss grenade. If they'd scrap the speed pad and tether(which is just a gimped tripwire) and left those two as is then I'd be much happier with the rework. 

Though I also have issue with the orbital strike being too slow. I have a hard time not getting my kills stolen with an opticor vandal and that fires roughly twice as fast as the strike. My opticor also has AOE and does around 60k damage per hit so I see no reason to use the ability over the gun anyways. 

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I just rolled my eyes when I saw that Minelayer was still part of his kit, but I thought "Well, let's not judge, perhaps the new mines can be useful", and then I was disappointed once again. They need to change this, it's gimmicky just like minelayer already is, nobody is gonna use any mine besides the damage boost.

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Ember's 1st should set the ground around her aflame and It'll synergize with her Passive and Immolation. Also the damage and possibly range or duration can scale with the Immolation meter. I also have an alternative idea but its a little too related to Wisp's 4th but Embers 1st could release Heat waves or blasts out of her hand using the same animation for fireball but a little changed and it could also scale with her Immolation and connect with her passive. I'm going to Enjoy both of these reworks they both needed much love. 

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3 minutes ago, The.Professor. said:

I'm clearly in the minority here but I really like minelayer, or at least the tripwire and concuss grenade. If they'd scrap the speed pad and tether(which is just a gimped tripwire) and left those two as is then I'd be much happier with the rework. 

Though I also have issue with the orbital strike being too slow. I have a hard time not getting my kills stolen with an opticor vandal and that fires roughly twice as fast as the strike. My opticor also has AOE and does around 60k damage per hit so I see no reason to use the ability over the gun anyways. 

The problem with tripwire it's that is not reliant, some enemies just straight up ignore the ability, others stumble on it then just keep walking. I like concuss too, but just like tripwire, some enemies just walk next to it and nothing happens, but yeah, I would take Concuss over that Boost Pad any day. 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Xebu said:

Have to say this Ember rework is pretty awful! This is not Ember, may as well have just made a new frame.

Ember was a nice trash mob frame, a bit squishy and not that strong against high level enemies any more, but unique and with a purpose. So rather than address the shortcoming (See Wukong!) she's now turned into another high maintenance frame discarding her one unique feature in the process. As it is I see zero reason to use rework Ember over other frames so it's DOA for me.

Her new 3 and 4 are basically the same, one localised boom, one targeted boom. The new 4 may look cool but it's just Vauban's new 3 with different effects. And making heat better but removing accelerant!??

Oh, almost forgot, Ember can still spread her fire because enemies can pass it on. Because of course we all want to keep our enemies alive enough to spread the joy. Oh wait, we already have Saryn doing this the right way.

My two penn'orth:

  • Just ditch the bong mechanic, good synergy does not mean just linking all abilities to a meter.
  • 1 can be used to set enemies on fire to keep the spread mechanic, enemies spread fire and explode if killed directly extending the spread range.
  • Allow accelerant to also boost defence. Still call it immolation if you like, being on fire boosts everything. Scale based on damage absorbed. Augment option: Extend duration but halve scaling.
  • Merge your new 4 into 3, tap 3 to target explode, hold 3 to power up a local explosion.
  • 4 retains classic World on Fire.

You now have Ember but better. 2 addresses squishy and dmg, 3 provides focused damage for high level, all while retaining the trash clearing of 4.


Vauban on the other hand retains his uniqueness, fixes his flaws and I am really looking forward to that one*

* boost pad trolls pending. Can imagine this being royally abused in Hydron. Maybe boost only works if you're facing the same direction and/or sprinting.
 

Wait, what? Vauban's Orbital Strike only deals damage in a single area, while Inferno (Ember's new fourth ability) is line of sight, which means that EVERYONE on the screen gets to experience the dinosaur's demise. And on top of that they get a fire aura that not only has high damage potential (2K damage PER tick) but can also spread with touch, and those enemies that receive the fire will also get 2K damage per tick, so bye bye trash mobs and the duration is refreshed for them. 

Accelerant only existed because Ember can't deal with armor scalling, and it is still bad because you are forced to use a weapon with heat, because it won't make too much difference for skills. Now that heat procs remove armor, ALL her abilities have better scalling, especially fireball and her new 4. 

And what's wrong with enemies that survived the explosion spreading the fire? This means CC god damn it, the thing that helps damage abilities remain relevant in higher levels. I don't think you have noticed, but the enemies were pretty much stunlocked to death. And the ultimate already deals heavy damage. So it is a nuke at most and CC machine at the worst. How is that a bad thing?!

And as others have said, any warframe can be a low level mob killer. No warframe should have the title of "trash mob killer" as their only useful purpose. What else can Ember do right now? Buffer with her 1's augment? Fire damage is only useful against infested. Even Frost, who lost some space to Gara, is still quite relevant. He can defend objectives, strip armor, slow down enemies and freeze them for easy kills. 

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I really want these ember changes to be good - but I gotta say this is all highlighting a major problem.
The goal of removing gameplay methods of "press 4 and afk" is a good one, don't get me wrong but when you replace it with "now you play the UI, not the game" methods it makes me annoyed, perhaps more so than having an option to just idle the game.

I do not want to have to balance actually playing and enjoying the game with pressing buttons because a meter filled or a cooldown wore off. and even if I did the UI is small, in the bottom side of the screen and super inconvenient to look at.

I have some suggestions.

Firstly for ember: Get rid of this "lol you messed up there goes your energy" play style. in terms of risk/reward if you can't apply that with level and enemy design you've missed the mark entirely. It doesn't sound fun, it doesn't feel good, just put a pin in that risk/reward gameplay idea until it's had time to be properly assessed game wide. this is not the way.

 - Yes she needs a defensive ability (I think all war frames do, and many need work) But ignoring the fact that many are going to build a squishy frame like ember with quick thinking to offset how easy it is to die while playing them putting a borderline required mechanic that means if I don't play in the least fun way possible - then lose my energy for not keeping my eyes locked on the UI at all times I die, I get annoyed, and the warframe sits back on the shelf of "Well this isn't fun to play warframes I have just because of my need to collect them"
 - Yes passive damage scaling is fun HOWEVER... you need to make the build up actually enjoyable and give us something interesting gameplay wise for it's falloff. enemies on fire in whatever range giving a power buff isn't going to result in fun gameplay. Time to kill in Warframe is REAL SHORT, the whole idea of a heat meter would be better applied to this than a broken defensive abilities I'm reluctant to use I feel like something of a 10-50% scaling damage meter would be amazing that went up as we used abilities making us explode with fire every so often without a massive penalty would be much more enjoyable. Make it feel arcady where I'm trying to keep up high heat combos to stay in the red zone  for as long as possible dealing as much damage as possible before exploding for a grand finish only to build it up again, and again, and again.
 

Secondly for UI. Make it modular, resizable, and let us players choose where it goes. Personally I'd want to put my HP closer to the center of my screen, a little closer to the bottom. currently it's so far out of the way if I choose to look at it in combat I'll die if im not playing a war frame with high defensive abilities. I would also move my abilities closer to the center (Again not at the bottom of my screen) because again it's way off to the side and I can't enjoy my gameplay while im glancing down at the bottom right of my screen tracking cool-downs, percentages and the like.
 -Give me options

I want to be able to chose what ui is important to me most and move to places I can actually see during gameplay

 - Give me Control

I want to be able to resize my UI selections individually, this would be an amazing accessibility change that would work well with ui movement.

 - Give us UI skins
You already have skins for some of the UI in game that players can chose to buy. if I had control over things like my HP bar, I'd be willing to drop plat on making it look cooler too.

Lastly for Vauban. many of the changes look fun, but more fun than actually useful. I feel like anyone complaining about mobility was more arguing that larger warframes seem slower. we don't need more abilities that are mainly used to do capture missions faster. this is just part of one of the things I've been finding more irritating as warframe goes. I realize the reason some abilities are a press and hold to switch function to increase the overall use of said ability making a more flushed out toolkit. but in many cases it just makes the warframe less fun to play because I need to sort through options I'd prefer to not, or in some cases never use. I've been noticing it often with wisp when I play her, I don't enjoy running into an area, pressing 1, holding 1, pressing 1, holding 1, pressing 1, holding 1. in cases like Ivara you're generally in a situation that lends well to holding down a button to switch abilities linked to your 1, however it leaves me wondering why I need to sort through it so primitively when you already have things like the gear wheel in the game (please just please make it a gear wheel for Ivara) In cases like wisp I'd sooner just hold 1 to drop all 3 buffs. However with Vauban as stands he only has one ability on his mine layer tree I'd want to use (we're running into the issue of two CC abilities with one having little to no worth on one warframe again) 

 

For Mine layer - these are gadgets - not mines, maybe we could re name this? also with the upcoming changes to fire damage if we're going to have nail grenade do less significant damage why not throw out a small device that could lock down a door with fire procs - this would give the frame an additional ability to strip armor (provided other changes announced stick) that doesn't require a large energy cost or re positioning of enemies.
In terms of other abilities linked to the same button I get that the damage buff is going to be limited, but it seems like it would be better accompanied by a defensive portion as-well, maybe giving us something akin to Nezha's shield. It would also be cool if this damage boost was more visible on the ground? I know it's a work in progress so there may have been no final animation, but hear me out... I don't want a damage aura, I'd prefer to go pick up the buff like it were one of wisps. This method works, and in my opinion it's better.

For Orbital strike - oh boy that time it takes for damage. Looks cool, but if I have a gun that can kill a group of CC'd enemies faster why would I bother to even spend the energy? Unless this skill does something like ignore all enemy defenses so we have a reason to use it on really tanky high priority targets and do things like remove the corrupted heavy gunner with ease I can't see myself pressing this button outside of leveling the warframe and wanting kills with it to boost the speed. Unless natural talent becomes an Exilus mod and the orbital strike time isn't closer to instant ( and maybe wider with range?) it feels like it's more of an ability built for a game that isn't warframe.
 

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One thing you need to consider is, that we dont know which type of Build they were running.
All the values were different from what we have. 23s Bastille would be around 150% Duration, yet Vortex was only 4s instead of 18s. Then again, collapsing Bastille gave it 23s too
So we dont know how Mods affect the abilities. We dont even know what happens with his Augments.

EDIT: It was 155% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 160% Range, 130% Strength

So pretty much a Cookie Cutter Build with everything a bit, but nothing maxed. And for that, the values looked great.

For Sticky Ripline we dont know the restrictions. Can enemies resist it? Whats the range? Does it retarget? Does it have priority Targets?
We know that you can stick it on your Kubrow, atleast they said we can. You cant do that with Vortex. Its also a lot cheaper. Could be useful to take out a few big guys.

Nail Grenade was at around 400 damage per hit on those level 200 Butchers. Yes, Butchers are not the strongest enemies in the game, but so are most enemies except high level Grineer Soldiers with Armorscaling of Doom. Since it is a 25 Energy Ability, it means we can spam them. Could work.

Completely agree with Boost Pad. We have Bulletjump, K-Drive, Archwing, and enough other Frames with universal Movement Speed Buff. Even merging the new Tesla into it would have been better than that, since they are both 25 Energy now. Would have made space for a new 50. Personaly, i would like to have a Shield-Wall like those Corpus dudes.

Orbital Strike - Totally in love with it. Yes, its too slow compared to weapons like Plasmor...but to be honest, most abilities are. You cant really compete against those Weapons unless you nuke the whole level like Saryn.
Raw, Scaling Damage is fine for me. Finally Vauban joins the "Scaling Damage Club" with a Heavy Hitter. Also consider that Vaubans Passive works well with the Vortex - Orbital Combo then.
OS alone was at slightly over 9000dmg, inside Vortex it was at 11000. Thats with a 130% Build. So around 7000 at 100%. I think thats still the hardest hitting ability we currently have, except for Saryns DoT and such things.

Considering the Buffs that Bastille gets, Armor Stripping and Armor Buffing, its deserved that it is now his 100 Ability. The Armor Buff capped at 1000 after around 10s. 1000 Armor means 77% Absorb. I think its 10% Strip and 100 Armor per second in the video, atleast the Butchers were naked when the Buff capped. Stripping 100% of the enemies armor with just 130% Strenght sounds strong.

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My thoughts on the reworks are kinda mixed. There's been some statements on Twitter that's given the impression Scott is at least up for playing with numbers and effects of a few things, but even with that in play I have concerns and questions. I do not want anyone working on the reworks to feel personally slighted, but some of this is... Confusing.

VAUBAN:
Passive: Love that it remains as is, the passive change was the good part of the 'vauban nudge' we got.

Tesla: In theory an improvement but in practice it depends on how fast the animations end up being. I also wonder if the number of charges are fixed, what stats do to affect or improve these drones (strength dictating damage, duration affecting either stun duration or number of charges, range being the seek range of each rolly drone, etc.) However for me it feels like more emphasis was focused on 'LOOK AT HIM JUGGLE!' than strictly needed since while vauban's doing his clown jugglign act excaliber has already sliced everyoen to  ribbons, rhino's stomped to stop time, and so on.

Minelayer: Overal I am the least impressed by these grenades since two are 'mini' versions of two of his other powers, which to me wastes a slot since you could have instead gone with more utility instead. I do appreciate and like the cost reduction signaling an awareness that these are supposed to be spammed to get a good affect.
     Sticky Ripline: The way this was described as 'throw to grab enemeis that basteil doens't grab' makes me wonder why you wouldn't just throw a second basteil instead. In concept cool but 'why would I use this?' Why not instead have a heal pad that either follows you or will stick to you/allies and heal for x health over y seconds (preferrabl y a percentage plus an 'on activation/latch' flat heal.)
     Nail Grenade: I'm.... again not sure what the purpose of this is beyond possibly adding some procs for condition overload.  Still it could be decent if modded I guess but not optimistic.
     Boost Pad: This is some straight up 'Goof Troop' stuff here. I get the idea of 'speedboost,' but at the same time in normal tilesets this will just have you run into walls. In open world 'hit the archwing button.' Propose it gives a speedup to animations (which would affect attack speed, reload animations, stagger recovery, and sprint speed' for x seconds after hitting a pad. that at least would give it a use, and unlike Volt's speed allies can choose to ignore the boost pad.
     Power Grenade: See this is the one I like most and see being used most. Actual UTILITY from the UTILITY ABILITY. Maybe the numbers aren't great I dunno but conceptwise this is great. 

Orbital Strike: Big flashy 'jump in the air and baseball pitch' animation followed by what feels like a five second super animation of 'target aqquired' BOOM. I get this is supposed to be used in tandum with basteil/Vortex to immobilize enemies but this just feels. So. Freaking. SLOW. beyond that? The actual explosion and effects are cool. I would recommend tap cast being a fastball and near immediate kaboom discharge on impact. HOLD then cast gives the full animation but juices the damage, or widens the area, or provides some other effects. 

Basteil/Vortex: Pitch Perfect, amazing. Don't change a thing guys.

I do have to wonder what his augments will be changed into since vortex/basteil will innately do what perpetual vortex does, and with basteil being moved what will his 3rd ability augment become?

EMBER:
Passive: Scott has said the range is being examined, which is good, because 'ten meters' basically puts enemeis in melee range, meaning those enemies are essentially Dead, so not empowering you. If it's capped at 50% power strength that's ten enmies at 5% strength per enemy. Put at affintiy range that synergizes with the idea her powers set enemies on fire. Additionally from the looks of wht her 2 does? Why is that not just part of her passive and accelerante remaining in place? Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

Fireball: The only tweak I can think to offer is having it be 'sticky' in that enemy walks thorugh, they are now on fire and now can set other enemies on fire. This would synergize with her passive in that burning enimies would help her passive out. Beyond that? Reasonable first ability. However I would have to wonder 'why does this exist when her 4 is basically the same thing but bigger?'

Immolation: Why is this taking up an ability slot? It sounds like the gameplay loop is 'enter mission, cast 2, this ability does nothing if you hit the button again except to keep from losing all your energy and dying because oops meter's full.' that's the OTHER problem I have, Ember is the only warframe with an ability that will activly harm them in that 'there goes your DR and squishy ember dies because OOPS no energy.' Why am I being punished here? Ember should feel ultra powerful when fully on fire not 'oh god i'm about to go boom.' NOTHING is worth losing all of your energy over. Instead why not have it once the meter tops off. Ember goes foosh which area nukes, meter resets, and she gets a thirty or sixty second debuff where attempting to build meter is harder than it was. As described right now it feels like something that's just there to keep track of and punish players.

That said I'd really liek this bundled as part of her passive (could even make the range of her passive increase as the meter builds starting at ten meters and building all the way to affinity range.) Instead put flash accelerant back.

Fire Blast: Why is this here? I get the CC it provides, but ragdollin g enemies ends up being super inconvenient. Plus ember's whole kit is 'TURBO MURDER ALL THE THINGS WITH FIRE.' Is the 'armor stripping' because fire, or does this strip armor MORE than just the fire procs? It almsot feels like this is the 'oh you cast this ability to manage her heat meter' instead of it being useful.

Meteor Strike: OK that looks amazing. It's not complete braindead but anyoen still alive is on fire and spreading the burning to everyone around them, and they're CC'd. Plus it looks amazing.

In General though I love the animation speedups she's getting I'm just super doubtful on her ability usefulness. However Scott has seemed more receptive to suggestions than he has in the past so I want to be hopeful.

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Vauban isn't a DPS frame. Trying to make him a DPS frame removes flavor from what he is.

Orbital strike is a cool ability.... that should be on another warframe.

Also, I know they said the animations were new, but part of current Vauban's problem is his already slow to activate abilities don't allow him to protect himself on the move. That weird super throw animation looked better than what we have, but also will make every single ability take 3x longer than it currently does.

Not changing his passive might be boring, but I 100% agree with. 25% damage is pretty significant and is a good "passive bonus" to actually CC'ing stuff with your abilities.

Anyway, let's go over what we saw:

  1. Tesla - This one seems like an overall good change. What the duration is, how we manage the ones we have, cost, and augments are all important questions though.
  2. Minelayer - Ho boy, this one is not good.
    1. Sticky Tripwire - This was a neat idea! but I have no idea why you'd use this instead of just a Bastille/Vortex, or a Tesla. But, what is the duration, target limit, etc? Is it really, really long? Does it make them do anything other than be CC'd?
    2. Nail gun.... thing. - Why this exists is a question. I have no idea what situation you would want to use this ability in. It's really inconsistent CC with pretty mediocre damage.
    3. Boost pad - A sideways bounce isn't a good idea for a whole host of reasons, but this is novel at least. What it should do if you want this to work is just give a speed buff for like 3ish seconds when you touch it. Yeah you lose the pool shot novelty, but it becomes 1000x more useful.
    4. Damage buff - I mean, it's good and would be used. But pretty boring in execution.
    5. Hold and tap swapping casts are a bad control scheme. It's bad in Wisp, it's bad in Ivara, it will be bad here. This is also a big reason why nobody will use anything but the damage mine. It's too tedious and finnicky to swap between the other mines, and if the payout isn't amazing, nobody will bother.
  3. Orbital Strike - There's not much to say about this. It looked cool, and apparently does scaling damage, but again, Vauban isn't for DPS. That's not the flavor of the frame. Also the animation time on this thing was 8 years, and only some of that was the throw itself. This could maybe work, but other than the on paper cool idea, I'm not sure why a CC frame has this. Adding some kind of mechanic to do to boost the damage through something else would be more interesting.
  4. Bastille/Vortex - Ok, so this has good and bad points. I like the idea of taking bastille and vortex and combining them, but that removes functionality while adding it. Here are a few thoughts:
    1. Armor stripping shouldn't be part of this ability. Straight up. Makes it too good. If you want Vauban to strip armor, integrate that somewhere else in his kit (Nail gun perhaps?).
    2. Armor buff is kinda pointless if you manage to get everything CC'd. Good idea to address problems the frame has, not the ability to put it on.
    3. While making all vortex's on the map attract to each other was super novel, it also removes a significant part of what currently makes Vauban good at what he is. This completely removes the option to lock down two places with vortex.
    4. Hold and tap swapping casts are a bad control scheme. It's bad in Wisp, it's bad in Ivara, it will be bad here.
    5. Bastille having long animation times is what gets Vauban killed. This has not been resolved with this change.
    6. There are 1000x other questions we might ask. How long is each phase? How does each one scale? Is the range on Vortex good, or as bad as it currently is? How expensive is the cast?

The new kit is not a step in the correct direction for this frame, but there are definitely some positive and interesting changes in there. Minelayer will remain unused if it gets implemented like that, apart from the damage buff.

Now, here are a few ideas I've had kicking around about possible directions to go in:

  1. Tesla - I don't have any better idea than making it mobile and more solid CC. Except... removing it entirely, and making this button swap between functions for his 2. Speaking of which...
  2. This should not be Minelayer, it should be grenades - Essentially the ideas behind the current mines are good, and they have good effects, just poorly executed, and making them trip on proximity makes them worse. Knocking the base down to 25 is also necessary for this But here's what the 4 (or more) should do.
    1. Concussion mine should be a concussion grenade. In addition to making enemies deaf, make them blind. IE, this should be a flashbang. Should be used all the time. Make it quick to throw, decent range, good tactical use for something like this. Keeps the flavor, but makes it more generally useful. Imagine going into a spy vault, tossing this down and being able to assassinate enemies. Or seeing a eximus Nox with a gaggle of grineer clumped by him. Toss this on approach, it procs his passive, go to town.
    2. Shred is a good idea to have on his 2. There are a few main problems with the current shred. It's not 100% or permanent. It's a low% and really short duration. Pick either permanent 20-30% or a 10 second 75% (100% with CP).
    3. Bounce - Well, what most people don't know, is bounce is actually a magnetic proc. Go with this idea. Make it an EMP grenade. Lower shields, disable tech, turn off cameras, stuff like that. Have it hard CC robots even. Another idea is to make it a remote hacking tool. Throw it at a panel and have it hacked in 3s.
    4. Tripwire is... well it's a thing. A 4th grenade though should either be an AoE slow/stacking cold proc, or some kind of group buff (Think a shield restore drone like the corpus have, only give it a time limit).
  3. This should still be Bastille, but with an important change - Make it radiate from Vauban himself, and make it do so fast. If you really wanted to retain the remote Bastille, you could also have it start expanding the moment you threw it, and not wait until it lands, then it opens, then it CC's dudes. This should not grant armor, and it should not strip armor. Bastille is good enough as is.
  4. Vortex - Honestly, other than making it scale with range decently, vortex is the best ability of its type in the game. Not a lot needs to change about it. Except make it work where Nidus pull also works. The fact that in a place like the Index, Vauban isn't a walking god, and Nidus with his 1 CC ability is a walking god, is dumb. The long activation time on this thing is fine because of how powerful it is.
    1. You could also do the Bastille/Vortex thing though, while giving him an actually useful 2, and he'd turn out really well. I like the combined effect, I just worry it removes functionality while only adding novelty.

Also, the number 1 thing you should do is give him some shields. Vauban is at the bottom rung with squishiness, but Nidus and Khora are super tanky by comparison, yet they have "better" versions of what his good 2 abilities are, and do more than he does. Nyx is squishy too, but all of her CC is super fast, lasts really long, and makes sure she won't be targetted. Think about what the other squishy frames have to deal with threats on the go, or why they are tanky, and give him something to deal with it.

Vauban is one of my favorite frames in the game, and while some of the changes for the rework are interesting, I don't think it makes him better, I think they overall dull the flavor the frame has.

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47 minutes ago, LazerusKI said:

One thing you need to consider is, that we dont know which type of Build they were running.
All the values were different from what we have. 23s Bastille would be around 150% Duration, yet Vortex was only 4s instead of 18s. Then again, collapsing Bastille gave it 23s too
So we dont know how Mods affect the abilities. We dont even know what happens with his Augments.

EDIT: It was 155% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 160% Range, 130% Strength

So pretty much a Cookie Cutter Build with everything a bit, but nothing maxed. And for that, the values looked great.

For Sticky Ripline we dont know the restrictions. Can enemies resist it? Whats the range? Does it retarget? Does it have priority Targets?
We know that you can stick it on your Kubrow, atleast they said we can. You cant do that with Vortex. Its also a lot cheaper. Could be useful to take out a few big guys.

Nail Grenade was at around 400 damage per hit on those level 200 Butchers. Yes, Butchers are not the strongest enemies in the game, but so are most enemies except high level Grineer Soldiers with Armorscaling of Doom. Since it is a 25 Energy Ability, it means we can spam them. Could work.

Completely agree with Boost Pad. We have Bulletjump, K-Drive, Archwing, and enough other Frames with universal Movement Speed Buff. Even merging the new Tesla into it would have been better than that, since they are both 25 Energy now. Would have made space for a new 50. Personaly, i would like to have a Shield-Wall like those Corpus dudes.

Orbital Strike - Totally in love with it. Yes, its too slow compared to weapons like Plasmor...but to be honest, most abilities are. You cant really compete against those Weapons unless you nuke the whole level like Saryn.
Raw, Scaling Damage is fine for me. Finally Vauban joins the "Scaling Damage Club" with a Heavy Hitter. Also consider that Vaubans Passive works well with the Vortex - Orbital Combo then.
OS alone was at slightly over 9000dmg, inside Vortex it was at 11000. Thats with a 130% Build. So around 7000 at 100%. I think thats still the hardest hitting ability we currently have, except for Saryns DoT and such things.

Considering the Buffs that Bastille gets, Armor Stripping and Armor Buffing, its deserved that it is now his 100 Ability. The Armor Buff capped at 1000 after around 10s. 1000 Armor means 77% Absorb. I think its 10% Strip and 100 Armor per second in the video, atleast the Butchers were naked when the Buff capped. Stripping 100% of the enemies armor with just 130% Strenght sounds strong.

The thing about the Bastille buff is that, why would we need armor when every enemy is incapacitated? Kinda of a odd choice of a buff here, unless the effect can linger for some decent time after the Bastille expire... But even then, 1000 armor is not much if we stop to think about it, Valkyr for example has 1470 armor with Steel Fiber, and she still takes some good damage from high level targets.

Edited by Resonant_Thoughts
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2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

 

I'd like to add in a defensive barrier/wall suggestion for Vauban, but my fear is that the community and feedback would piggy back at it to be some sort of poor-man Snow Globe or something.

Compared to Minelayer? Hardly think so xD

In fact, I got a couple of good feedback comments when I suggested it in the main rework thread, actually.

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Bastille should have a damage buff, not a defensive one. Then they could add a defensive mine to Minelayer. The Nail Grenade should be utility based not a DPS ability, it should inflict some kinda of debuff on the enemies, radiation, disarm, that kind of stuff, it should also have a big trigger radius, so enemies don't just walk pass the mine like they do now. The Boost Pad is useless, it just shoves you in a direction, we have enough mobility in close quarters and archwings and K-Drives in open worlds, nobody is gonna use that just like Bounce, even if it gaves us a speed buff like Volt's, why would Vauban need that?

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Well, it's been debated to death. But one thing most people seems to agree on is that his old cc-based style was pretty redundant. As is most cc nowadays. So I'm rather happy with the changes. Ember too with her new cc, armor strip and dps.

Also, as for "flavor", it may have been his identity until now but there's really no rule saying that an engineer frame can't do dps. The same way Wukong's flavor was to be a god frame with one single ability. I'm just hoping it's as good as it seemed on stream.

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93
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48 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

Bastille should have a damage buff, not a defensive one. Then they could add a defensive mine to Minelayer. The Nail Grenade should be utility based not a DPS ability, it should inflict some kinda of debuff on the enemies, radiation, disarm, that kind of stuff, it should also have a big trigger radius, so enemies don't just walk pass the mine like they do now. The Boost Pad is useless, it just shoves you in a direction, we have enough mobility in close quarters and archwings and K-Drives in open worlds, nobody is gonna use that just like Bounce, even if it gaves us a speed buff like Volt's, why would Vauban need that?

Replace the damage with armor shredding on the nail gun. Remove it from bastille. Shred as a mine/grenade is a really cool idea, don't just give bastille shred (then inevitably nerf it).

Sideways bounce is nothing more than a novelty. It doesn't look useful at all. I just suggested a speed boost as a way to make that idea actually be workable, but I don't disagree. Give us back the magnetic/EMP proc idea.

Definitely move the damage buff to bastille and the defense buff to minelayer. Even if you don't go with grenades or anything I've suggested, the defense buff being on the giant CC makes absolutely no sense.

Sticky tripwire should pull guns only with it's thing. The disarm idea is neat, could work.

There, less drastic (and less cool) than the grenades, but still working with the current ideas in the minelayer rework (except sideways bounce, don't do that).

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Well, it's been debated to death. But one thing most people seems to agree on is that his old cc-based style was pretty redundant. As is most cc nowadays. So I'm rather happy with the changes. Ember too with her new cc, armor strip and dps.

Also, as for "flavor", it may have been his identity until now but there's really no rule saying that an engineer frame can't do dps. The same way Wukong's flavor was to be a god frame with one single ability. I'm just hoping it's as good as it seemed on stream.

I mean, his passive is his damage. 25% more damage on CC'd stuff, it's one of  the best passives in the game. But, sure, keep the orbital strike ability I guess. Maybe it'll be cool... But it sure seemed kinda meh. Like, it wasn't doing great damage, and all it did was throw enemies around after 5 seconds of windup.

If you wanted him to do damage, there are far more effective and interesting ideas people have been kicking around forever: An exalted sentinel, for example with different attack and defend modes. Or even just temporary sentinels he throws that do different things like the corpus have.

Minelayer in the demo seemed novel, but not any more useful than it currently is. In fact, almost everything seemed more novel than actually useful. It still needs tweaks. Having flashbangs and emp grenades would add some much needed utility to his kit that the rework isn't granting him. The rework of the 2 actually takes away more useful utility ideas, more so than it grants.

Edited by Vinceant
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The Ember rework looks great here. I love the idea that there is now an active way for Ember to boost her damage without resorting to the old passive of standing on fire or setting herself on fire. But instead doing active damage against enemies with Fireball and Fire Blast.

My feedback here for Ember here would be:

1. Hopefully you would reconsider the energy deplete penalty for the Immolation ability. Perhaps something like Shield depletion and slowed shield regen for a few seconds instead of full energy bar depleted, maybe even add a burn to half of energy bar. It just seems too punishing, leaves Ember in such a vulnerable state even with guns, and a hard time to recover from the penalty. 

2. I want to definitely with play Inferno but the World on Fire replacement feels like a redundant fireball. I mostly think that the massive meteor strike visual effect is what makes me think Inferno's a copy of fireball. I hope it doesn't come us presumptuous of me but may I suggest changing the visual effect. I imagine something like Roy Mustang's snaps in the anime Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood would change the impression of a copycat fireball. I imagine for Ember she would stretch her hand out in the enemies direction and from the ground up a giant blaze sets the enemies on fire. It's like Ember willed a giant bonfire from where the enemies stood. Here is a link to how the show animated it: https://youtu.be/AsQ_wETHM-M?t=72 

3. By the way, Inferno is definitely a better ability than World on Fire. Great job there! World on Fire always felt too passive an ability to play with. Hopefully Inferno also scales its damage based on the either the enemy level or the Immolation bar. That wasn't too clear here in the thread and in the devstream. Also can't wait for the different colour schemes to make the Inferno look even cooler.

4. Does Immolation also set enemies on fire when in close contact with Ember, like in Melee range? Similar to how the fire proc spreads to enemies when they run into burning enemies set aflame by Inferno. The range doesn't have to be big perhaps something like 3-5 meters. Just so it could introduce a melee focused playstyle option for Ember.

5. Also does Fireball have a guaranteed panic effect on enemies? With Accelerant gone and replaced with Immolation, we now have damage reduction in place of a quick stun. Is it too much to also have a stun with Fireball now instead of Accelerant plus the damage reduction of Immolation? Maybe have the panic effect in an augment mod?

 

As for Vauban, I was never much a fan of his playstyle. But I love the focus on mobile crowd control here. Again great job, DE!

 

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