Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

[Sohaya-]

3 hours ago, Seregios said:

Yeah, it's a flop. I feel like they're doing this because someone's forcing them to..

At least Scott has train man’s ideas, some of them at least.

Imagine what he’d have done if he didn’t.

[FranklinsDemise]

Just now, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

His 1 at least is mobile cc. And his 2 has a damage buff built into it.

Yeah, they're definitely better than what we have right now, but they're gonna be overshadowed by 3 and 4 for sure. I'm also still a bit reluctant about the fact that Bastille is gonna cost 100 energy, considering you're gonna use regularly like right now, his energy economy is gonna become harsher.

[Sohaya-]

4 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

Yeah, they're definitely better than what we have right now, but they're gonna be overshadowed by 3 and 4 for sure. I'm also still a bit reluctant about the fact that Bastille is gonna cost 100 energy, considering you're gonna use regularly like right now, his energy economy is gonna become harsher.

Wait WHAT (drop it down to 50 since were gonna spam it pls DE)

Im pretty sure Bastille got moved to his 4 and buffed so I think it might be 50 energy unless confirmed otherwise

[FranklinsDemise]

Just now, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Wait WHAT

Like, since Bastille is his new ultimate ability, it's gonna cost 100 energy.

[Sohaya-]

2 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

Like, since Bastille is his new ultimate ability, it's gonna cost 100 energy.

Okay I thought it was confirmed. There are some ults that cost less than 100 energy though (miasma), and Bastille was “being moved to” his 4 so hopefully it’s an efficiency improvement (please make it happen)

[FranklinsDemise]

Just now, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Okay I thought it was confirmed. There are some ults that cost less than 100 energy though (miasma), and Bastille was “being moved to” his 4 so hopefully it’s an efficiency improvement 

Would be good if they dropped the cost indeed, but I doubt it, considering Vortex costs 100, and basically Vortex is still present in his kit. But I damn hope I'm wrong.

[Phaeronimus]

19 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Thanks.

It kinda saddens me though, as both these reworks really frustrate me with their incompetence.

Tbh,99% focused on that Vauban "rework",but ofc,the Ember players and even potential Ember players have my sympathy.
The reason why I'm so stressed is because his rework was gonna be the last straw,if it were to flop.That's why I want it to succeed,to make me wanna stay and play the game....so...seeing Scott proceeding with the memes...not addressing his issues..makes me even more stressed and sad.

[FranklinsDemise]

24 minutes ago, Phaeronimus said:

Tbh,99% focused on that Vauban "rework",but ofc,the Ember players and even potential Ember players have my sympathy.
The reason why I'm so stressed is because his rework was gonna be the last straw,if it were to flop.That's why I want it to succeed,to make me wanna stay and play the game....so...seeing Scott proceeding with the memes...not addressing his issues..makes me even more stressed and sad.

I don't wanna need to wait another year or so for them to try to fix Vauban again, so I'm really trying to be vocal about this rework and how it could be improved. And I agree man, Scott keeping Minelayer was disappointing, but I could cope with if the mines were actually useful, but that meme pad, that is not ok.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

31 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

Like, since Bastille is his new ultimate ability, it's gonna cost 100 energy.

 

29 minutes ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Okay I thought it was confirmed. There are some ults that cost less than 100 energy though (miasma), and Bastille was “being moved to” his 4 so hopefully it’s an efficiency improvement (please make it happen)

 

26 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

Would be good if they dropped the cost indeed, but I doubt it, considering Vortex costs 100, and basically Vortex is still present in his kit. But I damn hope I'm wrong.

Seriously, this is what I’m saying.

Make Bastille/Vortex as it is now a power 3 so that we can potentially have it at 50-75 cast cost, than leave it as a power 4 which will subsequently be defaulted to a 75-100 cast cost. 

No one wants to have Bastille/Vortex as a 100 cast cost ability. It’s an ability that will likely be spammed on the field, and will ruin his energy and duration economy. Having it at 50 cast cost would be ideal considering how important the two combined instances of the ability is used for Vauban’s CC.

Please bump Orbital Strike into power 4 and make Bastille/Vortex remain as a power 3. It’s only right and feels more suitable for Vauban’s kit.

[Phaeronimus]

5 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

I don't wanna need to wait another year or so for them to try to fix Vauban again, so I'm really trying to be vocal about this rework and how it could be improved. And I agree man, Scott keeping Minelayer was disappointing, but I could cope with if the mines were actually useful, but that meme pad, that is not ok.

Neither do I,mate.I've created a topic during the stream,which eventually got merged into this topic.Since it was fresh as it can be,it was really an angry and sarcastic feedback to begin with.A day has passed but I still didn't cooled off,just pisses me off how he playfully made the rework.Sounded so indifferent while explaining the "rework".

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

On 2019-10-04 at 6:19 PM, Bioboygamer said:

I'm bad enough that I can hardly manage refreshing any buff abilities that I have, let alone managing some meter. It just doesn't add anything interesting in exchange for the complexity it introduces.

Your fault, not DE's

[Grav_Starstrider]

Hey guys, regarding Ember's Spicy passive and the energy nuke on Immolation, see the following. You can probably focus a little bit more on Ember's other ability gripes, and Vauban feedback further.

 

[HolySeraphin]

I suggest making Ember's FireBlast knock down enemies instead of knocking them back and out of the range of her passive and rest of abilities. Or stun them so you can use her skills to finish them and take advantange of the armor removal.

[jwya]

Dk if this has been said, but please no not mine layer (or much of it). 

What probably shouldn't change

Old:

Concuss: Against anything which buffs adds, especially infested/ corrupted healers, I dare to say that concussion is the cornerstone of Vauban's abilities. A kit nearly entirely centred on CC and occasionally procs would be useless against hard CC & proc denial coupled with damage reduction and healing, esp since healers sometimes hide in corners /behind heavies and buff enemies without you being any wiser. A reliable source of radiation proc would counter this issue without forcing one to rely on a radiation proc weapon. 

New:

Nail grenade is Azima but gimmicky, and even then the puncture (assuming it reliably hits enemies and procs) isn't too useful since there's already a hard CC kit, and increasingly more enemy bruisers have some degree of proc immunity, especially in PoE/ Orb Vallis. 

Sticky ripline is a budget larva, and larva is vortex fulfilling another niche (instantaneous enemy gathering across a larger range, at the expanse of sustained area denial) . So unless sticky ripline ends up minimally equal (or close) to larva stat-wise, it's barely more useful than tripwire, especially when it's in the same kit as Vortex itself. Any attempts to reach a midpoint between Vortex and Larva would still leave it redundant compared to the niche usage of the other 2 skills

Side note :

Consider giving Vortex a small hard - capped range boost inversely proportionate to remaining duration, so that it at least mops up all remaining enemies within bastille if the ability ends naturally. Or alternatively, a 360 degree instantaneous max range Pull at ability expiry, with all the included entropy, just for one last kek. 

Just realized the cap on tesla rollers: Rip Unlimited Tesla Works ;_;

[FranklinsDemise]

Now first, before you people grab your torches and pitchforks like they did to me on Reddit:

I know that the rework is not ready yet, so we should take everything with a grain of salt, BUT it's our duty as the community of this game to give feedback from what was presented to us, so DE can have a better grasp of the situation. It's too early to take conclusions, but now it's the time to be vocal, because it's more unlikely for DE to make changes after the rework is released. It's easier now than after.

Now to the matter at hand.

The rework isn't bad, but it needs improvements for sure, so here are my criticism and ideas:

-Tesla:

This one seems alright, I'll not talk much about it because they made clear that the ability wasn't ready yet, they still needed to make a lot of polishing and AI improvements. The concept is alright, perhaps the balls shouldn't latch to enemies considering you can only have 4, but if the number grows to 10, then it's fine.

-Minelayer:

Now this... this an issue that I really hoped we wouldn't have to deal with in this rework, it's such a flawed ability that I thought it would be the first one to be scrapped out of the formula, but doesn't seem like it. The issue still remains, too much gimmicks and little practical uses. Here's how we can make it a better ability:

   -"Sticky Ripline": This is a cheap Vortex, can be useful to quickly immobilize enemies without spending too much energy, except it seems it can only pull two enemies, increase that number to 4-5 and it would be immensely helpful.

   -"Nail Grenade": This one as it is right now has little use, it's not precise and the damage seems lackluster. My idea is to turn this ability into a utility tool, the nails should disarm targets, easy way to supress enemies and take control of the battlefield, just what Vauban likes, plain and simple.

   -"Boost Pad": Now this ability should have never seen the light of day, it's the definition of gimmicky, you guys know that bullet jump is a thing and it's free, right?, It's equal or worse than Bounce. My idea? Just send this ability to the void, delete it and make another one. What could it be? I have some ideas: A shield bubble that heals allies inside and/or refills ammo. A Cryo Grenade that freezes enemies. A Viral Grenade that leaves a cloud which deals damage and procs Viral. ANYTHING but the Boost Pad, hell if you don't wanna change it, I honestly think it would be better to straight up delete it and just leave Minelayer with 3 mines instead of 4, it would make a lot faster to switch between the mine types, that thing is only taking space.

   -"Damage Amp": What can I say about this one? Raw damage boost is always welcome, just give a good duration and a reasonably amount of damage amplification. 

-Orbital Strike:

This one looks interesting, but we need a few tweaks here too. First, it seems too slow, will be very difficult to use in a public squad, that dude with the Plasmor will have killed everyone in the room by the time the thing is actually armed, make it faster. Also, I'm not doubting that this ability will hit like a truck, but hey, I think it should do more than just raw damage, what if enemies struck by the laser would also be more susceptible to damage? So if anything survives the Strike, you could rapidly finish it off.

-Bastille:

In my opinion, this is the best part of the rework, if the rest of his kit had the same spirit as this ability I would have no complaints of this rework. Versatile and useful in many combat scenarios, and it synergizes well with the Orbital Strike. The only thing that worries me, is the energy cost, the way this rework is going, it seems Vauban will still need to spam this ability a lot, and with a cost of 100 energy, his energy economy can be kinda rough. My solution is to swap Orbital Strike with Bastille, it's fine for Orbital Strike to cost 100 energy considering you will not spam all the time, then Bastille can have 50-75 energy cost.

 

That's basically all my thoughts about it, I really hope they take some feedback, not only from me but also from a lot of other people who are giving amazing suggestions to improve this rework. As a Vauban main, I really don't want this rework to be released and people just play him a bit then forget about it once again, Vauban is been eating dust for a long time now, he really needs some love.

[Braneman]

Suggestion for boost pads to prevent trolling, they don't work while your crouching/sliding or something like that. That way if you want to set yourself up so you're just bouncing between them you can, but all you have to do to stop is just press crouch.

[InanimateAlex]

This is obviously a numbers game. Everything here hinges on the abilities being big enough/ damaging enough/long enough. That's easy stuff to fix tho. 

Now the real stuff.

Vauban

Everything looks fairly slow. Most notably Orbital Strike. I'd suggest a 1sec arming time after the nade lands. I also saw someone suggesting the ability to hold the button down to juggle and then throw multiples of these at once. Maybe the longer you hold it down the more you juggle? Up to a cap ofc. Just because of the length of the animation. And considering the juggling animation already exists it seems like an "easy" feature to add. 

Boost pad looks like it will be hard to use. Given that no one walks in warframe. Maybe make it a airborne boost tunnel? That you can bullet jump through to launch you forward. Then you can still do the Pool Cue thing for Steve

Nail grenade seems aight. Hope the damage is okay and that it might stagger enemies a little. So it doest fall out of use at higher level. Also if it kills something it should nail them to the walls boltor style

Ripline grenade seems okay for memes. And memes are pretty good

Bastille/Vortex looks Muy Bien

Ember is a bit wierd on the other hand.

First thing why is Immolation not her passive? Just you build up heat as you use abilities. And then bring back accelerant? It was the best part of her kit and gave her weapon synergy. Maybe use accelerant to drain heat from the gauge? I understand the need for her main defensive ability to not always be active.

But my solution is to tie the Damage Reduction of Immolation directly to the gauge. Higher meter, more DR and damage. It would make her more skill based as using her in higher levels would be all about heat management. And on that topic.

Why the full energy drain? That's some harsh bud. Consider adding a different drawback to the heat gauge. Possibly overflowing the gauge drains it to 0 (which would be a pretty good drawback if immolation was her passive just sayin) however if you have to keep the energy drain. Then the overheating purge attack needs to be Godly, like casting Inferno/meteor on everything in the tile godly. Obviously I think there are more elegant solutions (ones that wont melt gpus) 

Overall I love the direction you guys are going with these frames. Really thematic, I hope they come out great

[kaelvamp]

Instead of Fireball when charged be just "more damage" it could be a constant Stream, Think fire spell in Skyrim, or a Ignis type Stream of flames... 

[Tarak]

Personally i feel ember's 3 should not push enemies back but instead drain a flat percentage of her current meter and just send out a wave of fire and drop the old fire blast ring where she stands, both drawing strength from the actual amount of the meter shed. I also feel it should let you fed more of the meter in through a charge mechanic, letting you charge it and become damage immune while briefly charging up the burst with heat and energy.

[Lierce]

They should really add a lesser version of World on Fire to Immolation.  Just lower the damage but keep the effect.  It was too cool to get rid of completely.

[Lierce]

1 hour ago, kaelvamp said:

Instead of Fireball when charged be just "more damage" it could be a constant Stream, Think fire spell in Skyrim, or a Ignis type Stream of flames... 

That's not a bad idea, but fire chroma already does that (not that his 1 isn't in need of a buff).

[Graavarg]

7 hours ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

So basically if you don't want to lose all of your energy, you should just straight up ignore an ability? Just keep playing with 3 abilities? I thought this rework was meant to improve her, not limit her arsenal.

No, basically: if following a meter on the HUD and pressing a button when it goes "into red" is an overwhelming concept, don't activate it in the first place.

But to argue for it to be removed so that no-one can use it, where does that thought come from?

[Colyeses]

13 hours ago, AnOldAlias said:

Exactly! I think that's a fantastic solution. Though I'd still hope that they do look at the "Draining all energy" thing, given that Ember is based on Fire. Overheating can be bad, mind you, but she is literally based around fire, it shouldn't be much of an issue for her, all things considered, especially when it's her own toolkit.

It is an interesting mechanic, but it definitely needs to have positives AND negatives, not just negatives. A 'Frame that uses fire should be able to use her own overheat in some way as a benefit. Maybe give you a 5 second window to use an ability before all the energy is taken away / halved, idk.

Well, the positive is that we may have a damage caster outside of Nidus that doesn't suck. She could actually deal damage, provided the calculations are generous enough. I'm willing to risk losing all energy for that.

[Phaeronimus]

6 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Hey guys, regarding Ember's Spicy passive and the energy nuke on Immolation, see the following. You can probably focus a little bit more on Ember's other ability gripes, and Vauban feedback further.

 

It seems the best way to get S#&$ done is to tweet,because tbh,doubt they will consider the thought process of the community in here as a feedback...

[ShortCat]

20 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

As opposed to cast #4 and occasionally #2?

This playstyle is reserved for WoF cookie-cutter builds used in lvl 50 Exterminate missions. In higher missions Ember is played as a buffer/debuffer, you use her skills for strategic advantages. With this rework, you will play Heat meter, not Ember. Baruuk is in the same situation, where strategic skill usage for skill's actuall effects competes with Restrain miantenance and advocates mindless spam.