Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

[FranklinsDemise]

Vauban's power budget is still all located in his 3 and 4, just like he is now. They need to split his power budget into all of his skills, like Harrow of example, or Gauss more recently, each skill plays an important role when playing them, not just 2 and the rest gimmicks.

[Sohaya-]

8 hours ago, Yrkul said:

There's another thing with these changes nagging me as well: Orbital strikes... and comets... working indoors..... From an immersion standpoint, that's... bad. To me, that is a major turn off. And to whoever decides do quip "space magic" in response, I just have to say "Where's my robe and wizard hat?"

Uh we can literally pull weapons out of nowhere, create inter dimensional portals that connect us to the sun, and quite literally stop time with the drop of a heel

any immersion that warframe has had IRL has gone out the window since forever 

7 hours ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I wanted to add something else before I forget, but maybe instead of adding more meters and gaudy HUD elements, you should try working it into the gameplay itself. Ember, as a fire wielder, should literally be on fire. When the flames start to die down, you know to do X,Y, or Z. This is just an example.

This is in no way an endorsement for Immolate, it's just a suggestion in general. Reducing HUD elements is a big plus for me. I'm not sure everyone would agree, but this is my feedback.

At least add more visual indicators than a tiny gauge on the side IMO

8 hours ago, Yrkul said:

It feels overall, like they're trying to cram even more functionality into his kit, leaving it overly complex,

I don’t share the same opinion.

Its always nice seeing alternate opinions, don’t get me wrong.

7 hours ago, Arcira said:

But in Vauban´s case the damage didn´t seem to be all that impressive considering that a melee attack did more damage faster.

It’s a finisher with the gram Prime. That’s gonna work for quite a while; but it should scale better than that finisher eventually.

8 hours ago, Chicadino said:

I'm certain the cast times are simply a product of the WIP nature of the dev build,

I’m not so sure personally. Hopefully they are but the 3 second cast delay on orbital strike looks intended.

[Sohaya-]

34 minutes ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

Vauban's power budget is still all located in his 3 and 4, just like he is now. They need to split his power budget into all of his skills, like Harrow of example, or Gauss more recently, each skill plays an important role when playing them, not just 2 and the rest gimmicks.

This tbh. Something I just realized: he has mostly standalone abilities.Which is fine in my books but synergy is always nice to have.

[Desrok]

I wish they would keep tesla link as a conversion to the old tesla grenade maybe without the electricity . Just a slash spiderweb for area denial. I really like the way i could place the grenade to link with the wall and other obstacle to cut out enemies or make a star/X pattern in the air and put a vortex on it or a triplaser in front really keep me occupied but was really fun . That was my favorite part of vauban and i really do hope it will still be available after the rework. 

Another alternative for me would be to have the old grenade stay with the tesla link as default and that the augment would make the new version with  the drones that attach to enemies and deal area damage . 

[FranklinsDemise]

11 minutes ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

This tbh. Something I just realized: he has mostly standalone abilities.Which is fine in my books but synergy is always nice to have.

I mean, look his kit, his 1 will now CC some enemies which is fine but only a few, his 2 is almost completely made of gimmicks, but then his 4 can CC an entire room, strip their armor and buff you and your allies, then his 3 can finish off the entire room. His 1 and 2 are once again being overshadowed.

[Seregios]

Problems with Ember before proposed rework:

• DE (Like Cephalon Simaris) hates too much efficiency. 4 was too good at murdering content, and part of that sweeping HEY FARMING IN A FARMING GAME AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE IS BAD SO QUIT DOING IT change (Alongside Peacemaker, Sound Quake, and the like) versus AFK farm, castrated its damage to be useless in all but the lowest level content.
• Other skills were pretty much pointless, as other frames could do her job and weren't shot in the kneecaps with a Tigris Prime.

Solutions after proposed rework

• Forced meter management minigame makes meandering through mixed skills and measures a must! This forces people to use other skills. No more 'just 4'.
• 4 is completely changed..and...isn't a world on fire, versus a meteor storm with pretty particles. Since it lacks the AoE zone-heat that it once had, it no longer has AFK farming power. Thus, people won't be bothering to use this as much. Win for DE who hates old school WoF!

Problems after proposed rework

• Why would I play something with a "do it my way or lose all your energy" risk versus reward?
• Why would you willingly subject yourself to this when a few other Warframes do her job better, cheaper, and easier? (The buff to Gauss makes Ember useless by comparison for Armor Strip, for example!) If you want to kill things, Ember isn't the choice. If you want to murder entire tilesets quick, Ember still isn't the choice.
• Meter mechanics appear to be a grimdark future that will make this game less and less fun as they're forced. Gauss' Redline meter can be ignored once activated for a general boost in power, but if you ignore Ember's, you lose out.

 

Even with the changes, Ember is still just a tinker toy that gets cool fire effects. Nothing but mastery fodder, primed or not. Then again, not everything is supposed to be viable, hm?

__________

 

Problems with Vauban before proposed rework

• Relic of a bygone era. Back when defense nodes were a bit more frequent and common, Vauban was king of the ring (for a small bit of time).
• Skills all watered down. They are either weak (Tesla, Wisp just does this better with her shock pod!), redundant (Trampoline. Bullet jumping killed that easy!), or useless (The 'tripwire mine'. Wanna knock enemies down? Put a hole in their head, or just do a falling melee strike to slam the ground local!)
• Potency lies in Bastille and Vortex. No other skills really matter too much.
• Bastille and Vortex have two different builds. Since Vortex has "unlimited" enemy incapacitate capacity versus Bastille needing to be built to hold more enemies, one build would mess with the other skill, and vice-versa. (Meme Vortex funtimes for this guy!)

 

Solutions after proposed rework

• New toys! Make Vauban feel like a..new frame(?)! 
• Combination of Bastille and Vortex into one skill may solve the "contrasting builds" conundrum. Maybe they didn't solve it?
• Some redundant / useless skills removed! 

Problems after proposed rework

• Dash pad isn't needed. DE quote mentions using it for open world. Why would I use that when I have a K-Drive, or better yet, an Archwing? (While poor Itzal still has the freedom to fly in particular! DE HATES EFFICIENCY Y'ALL. GOTTA NERF THAT ITZAL.) Skill bloat for the sake of replacing mines with other mines. Bonus point: same reason why I don't use Gauss for general play (Hint: SPEED SUCKS IN CORRIDOR AND LIP INFESTED WARFRAME HALLWAYS WITH LITTLE MOVEMENT VARIANCE WITH LIMITED OPTIONS LIKE MACH RUSH AND THE BOOST PAD.)
• Sticky Ripline doesn't catch enough enemies for the enemy density that Warframe tends to have. If this preview is legit (and it's weak enough to appear as such) what's going to be in launch? It's inferior to Magus Lockdown, which does more damage (LIKELY) and holds far more down for the same amount of time expended. Will it last longer? Who's to say, but it's rather lame.
• Nail Grenade is inferior to straight up nuking a spot, but I guess this is as close as it's going to get for Vauban to have 'turret deployments'! I feel as if this won't scale well, but again - who's to say? I could hopefully be wrong!
• Damage Amp will either be useless, or mandatory. DE hates efficiency however, so uh - expect nerfbat or tiny duration if it's even remotely helpful.
• Enemies worth killing either have invincibility phases or move far too quickly for the orbital bombardment to strike properly. Ten platinum this has a fixed AOE zone that can't be improved.
• Bastille and Vortex sharing a skill potentially hampers a build for each in separate manner. All the same, if the stupid "Bastille can only hold <x> units" thing goes away forever? Skill becomes a 10/10. If you walk into it, you should be affected. Not "I can have a huge AOE and it can only hold 2 units". Why the hek WOULDN'T I use Vortex instead?

Combined with the big push towards huge space battles and personal boss fights / Kuva Liches and whatnot, Vauban still feels out of place. Naturally if he's overtuned and the new augments are BONKERS, he'll be fun. Otherwise, he's still just going to sit pretty on a shelf. Forever. (Minus leveling weapons because vortex makes that pretty darn easy to do in the usual spots..but then I could be -that- guy and leech as Trinity Prime for heavy hitters in ESO to level too!)

 

Yeah, it's a flop. I feel like they're doing this because someone's forcing them to..

[Attachend]

My only major concern is still UI. I hope Vauban finally gets some kind of visual feedback for his abilities considering how many rely on differing lengths of time, charges and now forms. Something like Garuda's Heart Counter that hovers above an active grenade, or Harrow's killfeed with all active items listed and given a number/letter on the map (I'm not saying FFXIV's Enemy List... but I'm saying FFXIV's Enemy List) or even just a couple blinks  before they disappear would do wonders.

Not sure how I feel about most of the animations causing Vauban to hop considering most of his abilities still require some aim and positioning. I hope we can mod the duration and strength of the Nail Grenade puncture effect since we're getting more ability tailored elemental effects (Gauss and Ember). From what I gather, Vortexes from the same detonation all gravitate towards one another, so for a similar effect to old Vortexes holding choke points, can the Ripline Tether reach out in pulses to grab enemies or rip weapons from their hands?

Orbital Strike is tricky, most straight damage abilities have some problems keeping up if they don't channel/absorb and ramp up, so I'll be interested to see what kind of parameters it uses to scale as was hinted in the devstream. While I like that we can target specific things, I feel like it was nicer thinking it would be a passive effect when multiple vortexes collide. I still think it should have some other effect besides damage, or some way to manipulate it further, like making it track the target for the duration (or even a channel), or for a greater cost, let it deploy the currently selected Mine Layer grenade for every enemy killed. At the very least, I hope it can be deployed from a greater distance than his usual throws, or given the chance to increase it's blast radius the further it flies so we can still set up some fun ambushes in the open worlds.

I guess my issues with Vauban are the kind of thing Revenant solved, almost every ability Revenant has, has an immediate and active effect, along with passive effects that can be triggered in a variety of ways. Even if they don't synergize, things like Ripline Tether could be cool if it say produced the damage bonus for all enemies grabbed, or something like that.

[FranklinsDemise]

5 minutes ago, Seregios said:

Problems after proposed rework

• Dash pad isn't needed. DE quote mentions using it for open world. Why would I use that when I have a K-Drive, or better yet, an Archwing? (While poor Itzal still has the freedom to fly in particular! DE HATES EFFICIENCY Y'ALL. GOTTA NERF THAT ITZAL.) Skill bloat for the sake of replacing mines with other mines. Bonus point: same reason why I don't use Gauss for general play (Hint: SPEED SUCKS IN CORRIDOR AND LIP INFESTED WARFRAME HALLWAYS WITH LITTLE MOVEMENT VARIANCE WITH LIMITED OPTIONS LIKE MACH RUSH AND THE BOOST PAD.)
• Sticky Ripline doesn't catch enough enemies for the enemy density that Warframe tends to have. If this preview is legit (and it's weak enough to appear as such) what's going to be in launch? It's inferior to Magus Lockdown, which does more damage (LIKELY) and holds far more down for the same amount of time expended. Will it last longer? Who's to say, but it's rather lame.
• Nail Grenade is inferior to straight up nuking a spot, but I guess this is as close as it's going to get for Vauban to have 'turret deployments'! I feel as if this won't scale well, but again - who's to say? I could hopefully be wrong!
• Damage Amp will either be useless, or mandatory. DE hates efficiency however, so uh - expect nerfbat or tiny duration if it's even remotely helpful.
• Enemies worth killing either have invincibility phases or move far too quickly for the orbital bombardment to strike properly. Ten platinum this has a fixed AOE zone that can't be improved.
• Bastille and Vortex sharing a skill potentially hampers a build for each in separate manner. All the same, if the stupid "Bastille can only hold <x> units" thing goes away forever? Skill becomes a 10/10. If you walk into it, you should be affected. Not "I can have a huge AOE and it can only hold 2 units". Why the hek WOULDN'T I use Vortex instead?

Combined with the big push towards huge space battles and personal boss fights / Kuva Liches and whatnot, Vauban still feels out of place. Naturally if he's overtuned and the new augments are BONKERS, he'll be fun. Otherwise, he's still just going to sit pretty on a shelf. Forever. (Minus leveling weapons because vortex makes that pretty darn easy to do in the usual spots..but then I could be -that- guy and leech as Trinity Prime for heavy hitters in ESO to level too!)

 

Yeah, it's a flop. I feel like they're doing this because someone's forcing them to..

Honestly, I couldn't agree more. I really hope DE takes this precious feedback and do some serious changes in this rework because it' much needed.

[AndouRaiton]

The reworks look great but some things i want to ask:

Vauban:

1. Does damage amp stack or can you only have 1 active?

2. How many nail grenades can you have out at once?

3. Occasionally the nail grenade would fire in a direction that had no enemies, such as above their heads, is this a bug or intended?

Ember:

With her passive, does it update the damage of any abilities in affect currently, i.e. when i use Inferno does the damage of the fire on enemies increase over time (due to her passive not armour stripping), or is it only on casting an ability?

[Ocerkin]

the ember rework is god awful, like just nuke the frame bad, meteors sure fine thats kinda cool, the 2, and 3, trash, the 2 should be her passive minus the hillariously stupid energy nuke at cap thing, whoever thought that was smart should be fired, im not being harsh i am being honest, that person has no clue what game they are working on and if theyve ever played the game its been on dev build where you have infinite energy or uber regen,, it hasto have been so many years they have forgotten how energy managment works in the REAL game, you lose your DR your energy and your life essentially in this planned power, i would NEVER use this frame, its a deathblow to ember as anything more than fodder.

 

seriously, stop drinking and reworking frames, whoever it was, go home, you are drunk, but take an uber or get a ride because you arent safe to drive or even walk.

[AndouRaiton]

2 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

forgotten how energy managment works in the REAL game, you lose your DR your energy and your life

Speaking with facts here:

Unlike nearly every other DR ability, the DR is permanent until you overheat, which means if you can properly balance your abilities, i.e. not span her 1 and 4 and use her 3 when it gets too high AS IT WAS DESIGNED TO, you'll be able to survive quite long with a decently high DR.

Further, because of the DR she can now use Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline to restore energy and Adaptation as she can survive being hit.

Also the fact that ZENURIK exists and now NONE of her abilities are channelled means you will always be able to generate energy.

I can agree that lossing all your energy is a bit much, but considering you would need to spam abilities to lose it, you wouldn't have much energy left anyway.

Lastly, and most importantly,

10 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

its a deathblow to ember as anything more than fodder

She has:

High damage potential and Nuking capabilities (able to easily kill level 200 fodder units with 1 or 2 abilities).

CC that spreads to enemies

Armour stripping

and DR

Name 1 frame that has all of that and is seen as fodder. The only one that comes close would be Revenant, and that is solely due to the bad reputation he got when he was first released but now he is easily a great frame.

[Ocerkin]

2 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

snip-

she also has the ability to lose ALL of her energy and her DR by not micromanaging a bar every 10 seconds instead of playing the game thus basically making you dead meat, name any other frame that has this oh wait, there isnt one!

 

its trash, simple, she is a frame based around heat and fire thats PENALIZED for being TOO HOT...

 

lets make hydroid penalized for getting to wet,

or atlas, to much rubble you lose all your armor entirely and fall over,

how about titania, if you fly to long you get eaten by a bird

mag, if you use her powers to long you get stuck to a wall while enemy bullets are magnetically tracked to you

gauss, if you run to long you get a cramp and move at a crawl unless you stop moving and work the cramp out

 

 

lets go!~

 

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

36 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

High damage potential and Nuking capabilities (able to easily kill level 200 fodder units with 1 or 2 abilities).

Butchers die to a stiff breeze

[LazerusKI]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom:

Butchers die to a stiff breeze

so do most of the other non-Grineer enemies. only Grineer have that insane armor scaling.

9000 damage for a 3 ability isnt bad if it scales with the enemies level.

[DrXooves]

Love the changes done to fire status procs. Not only providing more armor reduction for endgame-level content, but also encouraging to mod for viral and heat for normal, starchart-level missions makes the changes to heat procs a well deserved buff. 

[Brasten]

Major issues

Immolation meter: Please don't keep this mechanic. It's not needed and is going to be counter synergistic. It will FEEL BAD.

Fireblast: As a power it is still redundant, and the knock-back is hurtful to a Melee Ember, who now needs to go chase down enemies.

Combining Immolation meter and Fireblast, as you currently do, is again anti-synergistic and punishing to a melee style. You're making Melee Embers not only reduce their DR, but now they also have to go chase down the things they're trying to kill.

 

I've long advocated for the return of Overheat to Ember's kit. I've also long advocated for it to replace Fireblast (which has been a rather redundant power since Ember was added). I strongly encourage DE to consider the following:

1) Fireball (25)

This power is mostly fine. The fixes to animation and timing will help it. Perhaps reduce the charge time, or truly make it a scalar (uncharged x1.0 to full charge x2.0, with the options of x1.1, x1.35 etc). A Scalar will also be useful for a Fireblast as a power combo effect.

2) Accelerant (as a grenade power) (50)

There are many good reasons to keep most of Accelerant around, and to convert into a grenade. Being able to throw down a zone with a Slowing and Debuff effect gives Ember a soft CC option.

• Combo power with Fireball + Accelerant zone = Fireblast effect (scaling from Fireball charge level).
• Combo power with Inferno. Enemies stepping into Accelerant patch ignites it (no Fireblast) and makes it a carrier for the Inferno DoT, spreading to enemies that touch the new Inferno zone.

Accelerant remains the Damage booster power and you don't need the "Immolation meter" for that effect.

3) Overheat (or if you must "Immolation") (6 per second*)

• Drain-over-Time power. Cost 6 per second
• Reduce cost based on # of On Fire Enemies (already being tracked by passive), scale from 6 down to 3.
• DR% based on power strength (thus partly based on passive), or directly link base DR to # of On Fire Enemies. Either way, you don't need a separate Meter for this.
• Combo power with Inferno, Ember can become a carrier for Inferno DoT, by running into an Inferno'd enemy (or burning Accelerant zone).
  • Double Drain-over-Time cost (12 max to 6 min, scaled).
  • Roll to self-cleanse early (stop, drop, and roll).

There really isn't a good reason for the "Immolation meter," it's just another thing to track. Ember's should only really need to track:

1. Warframe Energy
2. Number of On Fire Enemies

By making Overheat a Drain power, and having its cost subject to the number of On Fire enemies, you reinforce the two things Embers should be tracking. If you're just running around with DR on, its going to drain you out fast. But keeping the drain low also means needing to stay on top of keeping enemies on fire. If everything is dying within fractions of a second, Overheat will stay costly to keep active. The "Immolation meter" could just be an abstracted UI indicator of the number of On Fire enemies.

Allowing Ember to pickup the Inferno DoT and be a carrier, while Overheat is active, allows players to have the "weeeeeeeeeeeee I'm running around and everything is on fire" fun at lower levels. But with a bit more work, as they have to make physical contact with enemies, or can further combo off Accelerant by dropping a zone on their feet (turning it into an Inferno zone). Yes, the doubled cost will start to drop as the Ember sets things on fire, but it won't be as sustainable or easy to nuke the low-level-world as the current World on Fire does. And that cost won't stay low if things die off fast. Again "Warframe Energy" + "Enemies On Fire" management. If that seems too good, make it the Augment.

4) Inferno (100)

Great change, but see keeping Accelerant as a way to expanding the options for keeping the "World on Fire" and spreading, especially when the AI has pathing problems. That way Embers who want to 'passively' DoT the world to death can a bit more actively toss Accelerants around.

You do not need Immolation Meter to increase damage, you've already got that being handled by Ember's new passive. Just make sure the special Inferno DoT hooks into the # of On Fire enemies count, you're already tracking.

Passive) Ability strength for # of On Fire enemies

Good change, the more that's on fire the more painful the Fire gets. Just have it apply to Inferno DoT damage as well, and you don't need an "Immolation Meter".

 

Combo Effect Fireblast:

By making Fireblast a combo effect instead of a power, you give Embers the OPTION of that hard CC knockback if they want it. And where they want it, instead of just on their feet. Including being able to "blast" enemies toward them, or into other teammates traps. It also gives Embers a reason to keep using Fireball and not just ignore it in favor of an Efficiency Inferno. Working off the Charge Level (scalar) of Fireball would also give an Ember control over the "force" of the blast. An uncharged Fireblast could have negligible knock-back, good for an AoE fire proc. A full charge, could do the major area clear rag-dolling. Options, choices. A quick 2+1, at her feet, and its 75 cost Fireblast as it currently exists. A slower 2 + charged 1 , and you have a 100 cost "everyone away, and be on fire" zone clear.

 

Overall setting up Ember's kit this way, you can allow different play styles to Ember that don't punish her for doing them.

• Everything Burns (power & weapon status spam) is what we have now in the Mid to Late game, but won't allow Overheat to stay active for long periods. Especially on the Power Spam end of things as Overheat (as drain) will fight for Energy needs, on costly combos.
• Face Melting Melee with Overheat and carrying an Inferno DoT, which isn't blocked by needing to Fireblast every so often. Keeping DR up by staying on top of enemies and keeping them lit.
• Blasted Goal Tender, Accelerant zoning + Fireball (for a Fireblast) lets Ember clear Defense points and terminals (Interception hack points), without having to constantly stand on those points.
• Smoldering Friendship, with Augments for Accelerant and Fireball, now your friends can play with fire too. And it only gets hotter as they do (spreading more fire procs, and raising power strength).

And she's doing it all in a "yep that's a lot of fire" way.

[.Cruz.]

I have mixed feelings on this Vauban rework, While most of his abilities have gotten great changes we still have Minelayer. Please remove it, I would literally take an ammo dispenser or a duration based shield instead of all these random mines. We still don't know if Bastille had it's enemy cap removed ( doubt it did) and the new mines seem even more useless now. I just don't want to wait another 4 years for buffs to Vauban if this rework turns out meh, delay the release of his rework if you have to but don't settle for mediocre changes like that please!

[Keybones]

I'm failing to understand why a Warframe who channels the element of fire would ever "overheat".

[Graavarg]

Embers new overheat mechanic is an on/off toggle, if you can't or won't handle it, just don't press [2].

And I don't really get this negativity, or maybe all the millions of hyped and positive Tennos simply doesn't need to vent their happiness in chat...?

Also, don't forget the augments. They will have to be changed as well, and so far we don't have a clue. Vauban has 3 and Ember has 4, that is a lot of variability immediately on offer.

Finally, what matters most is that DE is "on" this, with the goal of making Ember and Vauban more interesting to use. And no one can claim that WoF is "interesting", neither the old or the new version. Practical to use yes, fun to use no.

Btw, anyone remember all the gripe when WoF was changed last time, all the people ripping out their curlies and screaming about "the destruction of Ember"? Sort of reminds me of a lot of the current posts...

[FranklinsDemise]

Just now, Graavarg said:

Embers new overheat mechanic is an on/off toggle, if you can't or won't handle it, just don't press [2].

So basically if you don't want to lose all of your energy, you should just straight up ignore an ability? Just keep playing with 3 abilities? I thought this rework was meant to improve her, not limit her arsenal.

[Desrok]

The overheat mechanic could simply be an higher cost for the explosion(based on immolation current cost) instead of all energy (seems a bit excessive).Something like double, triple or even quadruple energy  cost on overheat could be good that way still have the build up mechanic and a disadvantage but not a breaking one.For the other ability the new idea seem really good to me no complain on that part

[SafeRoom]

His new 2 still needs work. I don't see myself using his speed booster at all. That & the nail grenade & the Tesla Drones could also do more damage too please.

[Azamagon]

5 hours ago, Askorti said:

I'm not exactly thrilled with that Ember rework.

Fireball doesn't get any changes, even though it was the most bland and not very useful ability before. Unlikely to change now. Unless you use it to charge up the heat meter and for no other reason. /Edit: One way you could improve the fireball would be by getting rid of the charge up, and instead turning it into a flamethrower when you keep it pressed. So on a tap it would be a fireball, on hold it would be a flamethrower. Then maybe I'd use it.... Maybe.

Second ability should've basically been a passive.

That leaves us with just two actually usable abilities.

The 4th, which to me seems like a straight up downgrade from WoF. Before, anything in a certain range from you would get affected, while now you basically have to hope that the enemies bunch up in front of you to get as many of them as possible with one shot. Not to mention that you also need LoS to affect them too. The idea of the fire spreading is nice, but sounds pretty situational depending on the range of the spreading. Again, you might need the enemies to basically bunch up for it to work. And other than the fireball, which isn't likely to be used much, this might be your main way of charging up the immolation meter.

The 3rd Actually sounds like a pretty useful ability, with the stripping of armor and CC.... But it reduces the immolation meter...

So you basically get one useless ability that increases it, one expensive ability that increases it, and one very useful ability that decreases it... With this it seems to me like keeping a decent level of the meter might get a bit gimmicky, where you'd have to use your abilities in a sub-optimal way just to manage the meter. That doesn't feel right at all. I should be able to use an ability when it's most useful and *not* get penalized for doing so.

Also I'd like to repeat a point that someone made earlier, about how immolation adds DR, which scales up as you fill the meter. If you then use 3rd ability to slightly lower it, you lose some survivability which could kill you in some situations, especially at high levels. So your abilities actually work against you, not with or for you. I really do not think this was very well thought out. I won't even touch upon the idea that reaching 100% will blow off all your energy, because it is, I'm sorry, an absolutely stupid idea.

Similar to what I said (or, well, wanted to say), but more eloquently said. Nicely put.

And that last part rings particularly true; These reworks were not very well thought out. Which defeats the whole point of a rework in the first place; it's supposed to be well thought out so you actually make the frame better and more appealing - don't just quickly throw together a random mishmash of drunken nonsense.

[Azamagon]

7 hours ago, Phaeronimus said:

^This.Obviously coming from a fellow Vauban player who knows what Vauban needs.This part right here shows that you would of done a better rework than Scott.As a Vauban main for almost 2 years,this is exactly one of the things I would actually be looking forward to for his rework.

Thanks.

It kinda saddens me though, as both these reworks really frustrate me with their incompetence.

[Sohaya-]

3 hours ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

I mean, look his kit, his 1 will now CC some enemies which is fine but only a few, his 2 is almost completely made of gimmicks, but then his 4 can CC an entire room, strip their armor and buff you and your allies, then his 3 can finish off the entire room. His 1 and 2 are once again being overshadowed.

His 1 at least is mobile cc. And his 2 has a damage buff built into it.