I don't like knockdowns. Can we have ukemi instead?

[Zoh_Veldae]

I don't like Shockwave Moa knockdown waves. I don't like Fusion Moa snipe knockdowns from across the room. And I definitely don't like Scorpion grappling hook knockdowns that can't be interrupted by anything short of instant death.

And while we do have mods that increase the knockdown recovery like Handspring or negate it entirely like Sure Footed, I firmly believe that Warframes should instead be capable of performing ukemi, the martial art of recovering safely from a knockdown, without such external aids. Perhaps by having it be a timed button press when falling flat on your back, maybe even adding directional input to control which direction you make your recovery to. Who knows, the possibilities are fairly limited, but are there nonetheless.

Benefits:

- It would free up mod space from several mods that influence knockdown for better stuff to actually boost the Warframe's capabilities

- It would feel very ninja-like and super pro to perform and watch being performed.

- It would reward players for being skillful and super pro at the video game.

- It would fit the theme that Warframes have of athletic prowess and ninja-like movements.

- It would look pretty damn cool.

 

Demerits:

- It would probably require additional coding.

- It isn't really that vital for the game overall.

- The above mentioned Mods and similar would also need some reworking to fit this system.

- It would probably divert a significant amount of time and resources from other more grandiose projects like "The New War".

 

That is all I can put to writing. I hope it is understandable by all.

Thank you for reading.

[Sohaya-]

41 minutes ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- It would probably divert a significant amount of time and resources from other more grandiose projects like "The New War".

10/10 reason as to why this isn't already in the game.

Edited October 11, 2019 by RWBY-WhiteRose

[Jaysus41]

A lot of us have been saying that since 2013, all they've done is release Handspring.

Even though it's been shuffled to the back burner as of late, knockdown spam is still a problem with enemies, Grineer and Infested in particular.

[bubbabenali]

I actually always press LB the moment I hit the floor every time... Thanks to a live full of <...> Warriors and fighting games. Too bad that's without avail. 

But in Multiplayer matches I think that wouldn't work with how bad the connection is most of the time. 

[Teridax68]

My personal take on the matter is that players simply shouldn't get knocked down or staggered at all: a QTE to mitigate knockdown could be fun, but the core problem remains that removing control from the player in Warframe feels especially bad due to the game's power fantasy and emphasis on movement, and tends to lead to cheap difficulty when players get stunlocked by enemy knockdown spam. I don't think it's ever been a viable mode of difficulty to punish us by having enemies take control away from our characters, and giving that ability to fairly standard enemies when they often swarm the player in droves was a particularly bad idea. I'd be okay with those enemies punting us around and getting us airborne, and I definitely think skill-based knockdown recovery would be an improvement over the current situation, but to me the ideal would be for the player to never be made to lose control in Warframe, outside of special quest-related occasions.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Eh, while I support the idea that knock-downs against us are bad... although I tend not to suffer from them due to playing a lot of a frame that ignores both the ground and grappling hooks...

I don't support implementing a function that bypasses an entire section of modding.

Rather than this, DE needs to streamline the modding functions. Similar to how the Amalgam mods work, but literally get rid of a mod like Handspring and add its function into another existing mod like Armoured Agility. Combine these desired, but unused, functions in with already good mods instead of leaving them as separate and flatly not as effective as using the 'kill them before they kill you' philosophy for modding.

Sure Footed? Out the window with the base mod and combine that with a whole portion of utility, such as Enemy Sense, Thief's Wit, Intruder and Patagium to create a new mod that does everything of the above (call it something like Heightened Awareness) and make the Primed version do it better.

The Elemental Resistance mods? Shoot them for their mono-function and put in a single mod that can actually be used as a DR function for... heck, say 60-75% Elemental Damage resistance. It's not massive DR, it doesn't apply to the IPS types, but it's universal, and is worth using right up until the player has access to Adaptation instead.

Rather than bypassing the functions of the modding system, we need to make the modding system actually work better for the functions we want on Warframes.

[taiiat]

• don't use any version of Sure Footed, it's useless. making you perform a different Animation anyways makes it ineffective.
• Handspring will be the same speed or faster than this QTE you're saying you desire.

i'd see more benefit from there being fewer concurrent Enemies on the Map that can CC you in some way.
and probably not sorting them as Common Enemies, but as Uncommon or higher. not to just class the same Enemies higher that is, but for CC type Enemies to be designed around being an Uncommon, Rare, Special, or Miniboss class Enemy.

 

2 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The Elemental Resistance mods? Shoot them for their mono-function and put in a single mod that can actually be used as a DR function for... heck, say 60-75% Elemental Damage resistance. It's not massive DR, it doesn't apply to the IPS types, but it's universal, and is worth using right up until the player has access to Adaptation instead.

er, but a global Elemental Resist Mod that strong would effectively make us strongly resistant approaching invulnerable to certain Elemental types.
so in particular, our Shields would be approaching invulnerable to Radiation, and our Health approaching invulnerable to Blast. the same deal for Gas but i'm not actually sure there are any Enemies that deal that Damage Type.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

er, but a global Elemental Resist Mod that strong would effectively make us strongly resistant approaching invulnerable to certain Elemental types.
so in particular, our Shields would be approaching invulnerable to Radiation, and our Health approaching invulnerable to Blast. the same deal for Gas but i'm not actually sure there are any Enemies that deal that Damage Type.

You're not wrong, but the concept isn't wrong either. There are too many mods that we don't use overall, DE knows this. They're too niche, such as Warm Coat, which has the sole function of having Cold Environments (such as the Ice Planet tile set or the Coolant Leak status) not half our max Shields. Why is that not a base function of Insulation?

Also... I think your problem with it might be a little exaggerated, my friend, our base resistance to Blast (as we have Ferrite Armour) is only 25%, with a base 60% from the mod that would actually only be a total of 70% DR to that element, even at 75% from the mod gives us a total of about 82% DR to Blast and only about four sources even deal Blast as a damage type (a single Amalgam on the Gas City, thrown grenades, Bombard rockets and Hellion Rockets). That's the same with Radiation and our Shields, but again with that? The only thing in the game that deals Radiation damage are the Void Trap Lasers.

So the worries about being 'nearly invulnerable' to certain damage types... I don't think it would matter being around 70-82% resistant to two damage types that are barely a part of the enemy's arsenal.

The mitigating factor is that this is only Elemental damage, and there are very, very few enemies in the game that don't deal IPS to us as part of their base. And we're 50% vulnerable in our Shields to Impact, and 50% vulnerable in our Armour to Puncture, both of which our enemies can dish out in spades. So with that a 60-75% DR to Elementals... does nothing.

That's where I was being a little... what's the word... facetious with the concept. People that want an Elemental DR mod get one. It's not super effective, but they get one and they only need one to take their build to any location and survive a little better. And people like me, that just want to stop seeing these dozens of effectively useless mods in our Arsenal, get only the one. And further than that? People that want to see less dilution on the drop tables also get that. But Adaptation, as a DR function, if you can take the hits to charge it up, will always be better and any sensible player will farm that up if they want real DR from all sources on their frame.

[ShortCat]

I do not support this suggestion.

5 hours ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

Benefits:

- It would free up mod space from several mods that influence knockdown for better stuff to actually boost the Warframe's capabilities

- It would feel very ninja-like and super pro to perform and watch being performed.

- It would reward players for being skillful and super pro at the video game.

- It would fit the theme that Warframes have of athletic prowess and ninja-like movements.

1. This is an attempt to shift utility options from modding into other fields, which leaves us with even more dominant power boosts and streamlines/simplyfies/reduces options.
2. + 4. Don't mix game lore and game mechanics.
3. There already is an option to avoid those CC elements, which is tied to personal skill level.

That said, I see issues with above mentioned enemies, which require a fix: Scorpions can hook you even after you took cover, as thier hook has infinite punch through and that is silly. I would speak in favor of properly executed CC mechanics on the enemy's side as well as relevent counter measures on your side.

[selig_fay]

It seems to me that it is possible to return stamina to a game with which you can do a lot of things like this. Giving such things without limitation is still a bit powerful. I understand that the frame does not claim to be the most difficult game, but the enemies should also be able to win. 

Although, you can simply add passive resistance mechanics to the control after a certain type of control has worked on you. You know to get out of control don't get in the face of the next one. 

[taiiat]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

There are too many mods that we don't use overall, DE knows this. They're too niche, such as Warm Coat, which has the sole function of having Cold Environments (such as the Ice Planet tile set or the Coolant Leak status) not half our max Shields. Why is that not a base function of Insulation?

sure, but just using the same formula for that would be asking for trouble. besides, you can add the DR while airborne Mods and be able to reach 100%.

if we were to merge all of the Elemental Resist Mods together, just change the formula and then we're good. make it like 0.5x Multiplicative Damage and then we're all good.

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

18 hours ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

I don't like Shockwave Moa knockdown waves. I don't like Fusion Moa snipe knockdowns from across the room. And I definitely don't like Scorpion grappling hook knockdowns that can't be interrupted by anything short of instant death.

Play Rhino.

Hit 2.

You're welcome.

[Kainosh]

I rarely get killed when knockdowned....And on higher levels im just more focused, so i dodge most of them...or simply kill CC before they do anything.

But i do agree that Knockdowns are not very well made. Especially animations....just....so meh.

I think:

• Shockwave's lifetime is too long.  Especially in Fusion Moa's case.   I often have to dodge same wave 3-4 times before it dissapears.  Its too persistent for a "shockwave"
• Animations. Need. Work.   Its extreemeply lame when Warframe "falls on the floor" midair and then stands up before hitting actual ground.  I would add some level of limited ragdoll + a way to dodge out of that state.  Like...Dodging as you hit the ground would let you "roll" out of knockdown.  Otherwise you experience full recovery animations that happens when you fall off your K-Drive. Both Ragdoll fall and Dodges are already animated btw.  A proper mix of those would work fine i think...
• Enemy hooks should not knockdown on impact. It should work like this:  After hook hits you, there is small time window (like 0.4 sec) to react by shooting  the enemy or using melee to cut the line..or something like that. After that delay enemy violently pulls you, causing ragdoll (you fall towards enemy).   That way it would look and feel much better than how it is currently.

Please note that "knockdowns" are supposed to be uncomfortable....And that you are supposed to dodge them.  Getting Ragdolled because you catched one is totally fine.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

besides, you can add the DR while airborne Mods and be able to reach 100%.

Not any more you can't, that was a bug that DE fixed twice over recent months, the first with Trinity's Castanas build, and the second when they released the new Aura that stacked team DR in the air and forgot to make it cap out at 80% so that the other DR in the air mods couldn't make 100%

DE knows that's a thing, they already nyxed it twice when they realised it was happening. That's why I feel confident suggesting that kind of thing, because they'll either not let it stack the way you fear, or cap it off so it can't reach too high.

[taiiat]

7 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Not any more you can't, that was a bug that DE fixed twice over recent months

and it'll probably happen again at some point. making most of the Mods in question Multiplicative simplifies things greatly though, so it's almost a no brainer.

[Shalath]

7 hours ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

Play Rhino.

Hit 2.

You're welcome.

You are vulnerable to knocksdowns and grapples during the invulnerability phase on Iron Skin.

[Arcira]

Doesn´t have to be a huge rework. Some minor tweaks could improve gameplay a lot. Some examples:

- Scorpion/Ancient hook: a short delay between the hit and the actual pull. You can free yourself with a roll or something during the delay

- Knock back/down: press jump button before your warframe hits the ground in order to perform a double jump instead

- Shared cooldowns for cc abilities between nearby enemies

Edited October 12, 2019 by Arcira

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

and it'll probably happen again at some point. making most of the Mods in question Multiplicative simplifies things greatly though, so it's almost a no brainer.

But... when did I ever say they weren’t? Has this whole conversation been because you thought I meant additive?

[swiftasacoursing]

You can just roll before all these things hit you and it’s fine. Shockwave moa? Roll. Arson Eximus? Roll. It’s easier to do a roll before the effect than doing a perfectly timed button input before you faceplant the floor

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

7 hours ago, Shalath said:

You are vulnerable to knocksdowns and grapples during the invulnerability phase on Iron Skin.

You're also invulnerable. You don't need to be worried about being killed while you're defenseless due to being knocked down or grappled if you're actually the exact opposite of defenseless.

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But... when did I ever say they weren’t? Has this whole conversation been because you thought I meant additive?

but the Mods in question are Additive DR. which is the entire point. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

but the Mods in question are Additive DR. which is the entire point. 

Honest question then; Would you rather have 35-45% additive for just a single element, or 75% multiplicative to all elements from just one mod?

[taiiat]

43 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Honest question then; Would you rather have 35-45% additive for just a single element, or 75% multiplicative to all elements from just one mod?

that's a loaded question and that type of manipulation doesn't work on me.
the comparison you would be making is between a merged Elemental Resistance Mod of all Elemental Types being Additive or Multiplicative.

[Renegade343]

I would rather have Roll also give immunity to all staggers as well first, because it's a bit stupid I can somehow roll and negate things that would knock me onto the floor, yet somehow I'm vulnerable to some staggers.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Renegade343

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

the comparison you would be making is between a merged Elemental Resistance Mod of all Elemental Types being Additive or Multiplicative.

No, no, I meant, would you rather have what we have now; the mods all separate and not even with resistances to all types, or a single mod even if it had to be multiplicative instead of additive.