Nerfs Would Be Fine - Except

[SenorClipClop]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

Rather than nerfing it to the ground

Why are people so married to the fear that the gun is going to be relatively weak after the nerf? It's still going to be usable, same damage same crit and status. It's just going to have a normal shotgun range instead of the original 40 meter range. It's going to be about as good as other weapons in its class, and not ferociously better. Don't psychologically exaggerate a nerf to see it as bigger than it really is.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

32 minutes ago, nslay said:

That's how power creep happens. The game developers decide not to anger the community and buff everything else instead of doing the right thing: nerfing that one overpowered 

I never said not to Nerf it. I was suggesting tempering expectations and address the heart of the issue.

32 minutes ago, nslay said:

To an extent, I agree some of the secondaries need buffs. But I also think buffing everything to be on balance with the current catchmoon is absolutely nuts! And I point to the dumpster fire of inflated damage numbers/bonsues that is Diablo 3.

Again never said buff everything to be as good. I simply stated to buff others that aren't used. If they're stating MR27s are the metric, then let's buff the lowest 50 weapons to actually be more used than .01%. 

What I said about not nerfing was to not obliterate the damn thing to the point it can't even fill it's purpose. It also helps not piss off the playerbase all in 1 go.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

39 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Why are people so married to the fear that the gun is going to be relatively weak after the nerf? It's still going to be usable, same damage same crit and status. It's just going to have a normal shotgun range instead of the original 40 meter range. It's going to be about as good as other weapons in its class, and not ferociously better. Don't psychologically exaggerate a nerf to see it as bigger than it really is.

Shall I start listing off all the other frames and weapons that got nerfed to the ground that were less popular?

NI'mo, it's not going to have a "normal shotgun range". "Normal shotguns" don't have such a drop-off and such limited range. Not even secondaries, which if you haven't paid attention to, with exception to the pyrana prime, all are underused.

The only one exaggerating would be the one claiming an over 50% reduction to both total range and drop-off range with an 83% Reduction to minimum damage isn't damning.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

18 hours ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

a think DE did. Several times, and 11 months too late.

Only among the relatively MR27s.

I think you missed my point. Sure it's OP. Could have told you that 9 months ago. The point I was trying to make is that other secondaries need buffed. Rather than nerfing it to the ground it'd have been better to simply cut the damage by a bit and buff the least used until they're more viable. Is it ever a bad thing to have more options? 

I'd have to disagree. A harsh nerf flies in face of DE's solutions, which are to incrementally change things rather than breaking it completely. They usually only do this level of nerfing for exploits, and this isn't an exploit.

DE used to compensate if it affected the majority of the community. Look back at steel charge and the like.

I have 15 blue potatoes and 10 eidolon lens blueprints I have no need for. I also have more than enough forma to waste. That's not the point. I'm not a new player, but stuff like this is a turn-off to many. I'm not arguing for my interests here.

I disagree. Rather than understand why people don't use other things they decided to kill the most liked secondary. The proper solution would be to buff other weapons so they're ok and nerf this. The quick solution is to Nerf the most used while obfuscating the fundamental problems with the least used 50 secondaries.

 

Would have much rather preferred to see the  usage and damage dealt compared to primaries and melee.

Your catchmoon will still be one of the best weapons in the game. It now works as a super-charged Arca P with the range of a far-reaching shotgun instead of a super-charged Arca P with the range of a rifle. Previously, it was so good, people wouldn't even use primaries or melee, which is an HUGE issue. Now you are insentivised to either A) get closer to enemies before blasting them, or B) use another weapon alongside the catchmoon if you need to hit further away opponents.

 

The bolded+italicized was the entire point of the nerf. It wasn't nerfed into the ground, it was nerfed to give it a more specific purpose (shotgun pistol). And I agree that many secondaries need buffs, but I'll also add that we still need weaker weapons for the purpose of progression. Though secondaries are left in the dust with such a low amount of viable options that we can name them off the top of our heads. But this nerf was necessary.

[Gurpgork]

18 hours ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

Rather than understand why people don't use other things they decided to kill the most liked secondary. 

People don't use other things because the weapon in question is just that much better than all the other guns. The fact that the Catchmoon does enormous damage while having good AoE, infinite punch through, low falloff, no self damage, and access to Pax arcanes is just ridiculously hard for anything to compete with. It has nearly every advantage you could ever conceivably want any weapon to have and very, very few drawbacks. 

All they're doing is adding a meaningful drawback, which is something that every gun in the game should have, to establish its intended identity as a close range weapon. 

[C104]

Am 26.10.2019 um 15:57 schrieb (PS4)Limorkil:

I understand why the Catchmoon is being nerfed.  But try and look at it from an average, non-hardcore, player perspective.  
 

Every YouTuber - Get the Catchmoon.  Everyone in game - Get the Catchmoon.  
 

Me - spends weeks getting the Catchmoon. 
Me - spends weeks leveling up the Catchmoon (3x)

Me - spends 3 forma, an Orokin catalyst and an Eidolon Lens on the Catchmoon.  
 

Finally, I have a sidearm that i can use on harder content.  
 

DE - We’re nerfing the Catchmoon.   Only hardcore players can have nice things.  Now you have it, we take it away.  
 

So the time invested is somewhat demoralizing.  The Catchmoon is relatively hard to acquire compared to other guns after all.  
 

But what kills me is the forma, lens, catalyst.   Can we at least have the ability to scrap an item and get all the stuff back?   That’s expensive stuff to me.   
 

Even if you could only scrap one time per 50 login days - that would’ve enough.  
 

Yeah, yeah - to you guys it’s easy come easy go, you have so many potatoes you don’t know what to do with them. But not everyone is like you.   This was an expensive investment for me.   
 

(and if it were nerfed a little it wouldn’t matter, but nerfs always seem to be into the ground.   )

Only hardcore players can have nice things: I spent 8 forma a riven with 30 rolls and a lenses on it and I love the gun for arbi drones but it will be made useless for me too

[Corvid]

On 2019-10-27 at 3:37 PM, HugintheCrow said:

DE famously said they have no testers,

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

12 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

People don't use other things because the weapon in question is just that much better than all the other guns. The fact that the Catchmoon does enormous damage while having good AoE, infinite punch through, low falloff, no self damage,

 

It isn't because it's too strong, it's that it feels good to use, is essentially a pocket arca, and makes for a better hybrid. Only MR27s use it to a crazy degree, and I think basing a harsh nerf on >1% of the fanbase is a dumb decision when that same demographic has less than .1% of time with 25/103 secondaries.

Quote

access to Pax arcanes is just ridiculously hard for anything to compete with.

So does the 3 other kitguns which control the rest of the list. When's the talk on their nerf?

Quote

It has nearly every advantage you could ever conceivably want any weapon to have and very, very few drawbacks. 

So it's a great gun. Glad it isn't another Angstrum, Kolstar, or kohmack.

Quote

All they're doing is adding a meaningful drawback, which is something that every gun in the game should have, to establish its intended identity as a close range weapon. 

Meaningful being an over 50% nerf to range and 83% reduction in minimal damage that puts it below literally any shotgun in the game? For a gun called catchmoon it certainly isn't catching anything a dagger couldn't at this rate.

Edited October 29, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Your catchmoon will still be one of the best weapons in the game.

Yes, if the enemies are in my face. Past that? Granny can hit harder than that. Better off using the Euphona P.

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

It now works as a super-charged Arca P with the range of a far-reaching shotgun instead of a super-charged Arca P with the range of a rifle.

Arca was nearly as long and the catchmoon had a very similar range and drop-off to any other shotgun and secondary shotgun. Arca has a wider spread with higher damage potential. 

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Previously, it was so good, people wouldn't even use primaries or melee, which is an HUGE issue.

Citation needed.

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Now you are insentivised to either A) get closer to enemies before blasting them, or B) use another weapon alongside the catchmoon if you need to hit further away opponents.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

 

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

The bolded+italicized was the entire point of the nerf. It wasn't nerfed into the ground, it was nerfed to give it a more specific purpose (shotgun pistol).

Of which any and every other shotgun pistol beats at both range and drop-off.

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

And I agree that many secondaries need buffs, but I'll also add that we still need weaker weapons for the purpose of progression.

We don't need 70-80 weaker weapons, and while rivens were meant to be a quick fix, it's evident that it's failed. If we're claiming that this is game-breaking, I'd remind you that there are 5 better DPS secondaries, one of which was added with Gauss.

13 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Though secondaries are left in the dust with such a low amount of viable options that we can name them off the top of our heads. But this nerf was necessary.

Not without mentioning the fundamental issue with 80% of the non-options we have. Melee could easily out-dps it, as could primaries. Please don't mistake easyframe for power creep when it's only dominant with the 1% demographic of MRs.

[RX-3DR]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

It isn't because it's too strong, it's that it feels good to use, is essentially a pocket arca, and makes for a better hybrid. Only MR27s use it to a crazy degree, and I think basing a harsh nerf on >1% of the fanbase is a dumb decision when that same demographic has less than .1% of time with 25/103 secondaries.

So does the 3 other kitguns which control the rest of the list. When's the talk on their nerf?

So it's a great gun. Glad it isn't another Angstrum, Kolstar, or kohmack.

Meaningful being an over 50% nerf to range and 83% reduction in minimal damage that puts it below literally any shotgun in the game? For a gun called catchmoon it certainly isn't catching anything a dagger couldn't at this rate.

Refer to link in spoiler on the actual usage statistics. No matter how you're trying to spin it, the Catchmoon has an absurdly high usage statistic tracked compared to every other weapon. We can talk about nerfing the other kitguns when they achieve this level of usage. Tombfinger is at 5% in comparison to Catchmoon's 51% at highest MR bracket.

Spoiler

 

Also, I've explained earlier in this thread that the Catchmoon being weaker than every other shotgun is completely exaggerated. The Catchmoon fires a single projectile and will only takes a reduction from the range falloff. Other shotguns have to deal with pellet spread, meaning the damage reduction is often compounded and significantly lower than on paper.

Spoiler

 

 

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

We don't need 70-80 weaker weapons, and while rivens were meant to be a quick fix, it's evident that it's failed. If we're claiming that this is game-breaking, I'd remind you that there are 5 better DPS secondaries, one of which was added with Gauss.

This exactly highlights the problem and undermines your point. If there are 5 other weapons that offer better damage potential, why are they not being used by 50% of MR20+? The problem with the Catchmoon is not the paper stats. It's the practical function of the weapon, hence why they're making it more specific to close range. And before you start banging on about other low aim required weapons being just as strong, I want to see them all nerfed too because convenience of use should be a big factor in stats.

Edited October 29, 2019 by RX-3DR

[ranks21]

On ‎2019‎-‎10‎-‎26 at 11:05 AM, (PS4)Double991 said:

One thing I will note is when you look at the usage statistics that DE used to justify the nerf, that over 50% usage was ONLY among MR27s. The lower MRs due to their lack of resources had much lower usage rates on the Catchmoon. So nerfing it based on MR27 usage hurts everyone below that has normal usage rates.

and this is probably the number 1 reason why you shouldn't invest in anything in warframe>> the devs are just anti fun with no real reason to justify their doings other than everyone is using this so lets cripple it.

Edited October 29, 2019 by ranks21

[C104]

Am 26.10.2019 um 16:07 schrieb Gurpgork:

The gun itself is getting much more severe damage falloff, so it's not just the riven. 

For good reason, too. Higher MR players are using it as much as every other secondary in the game combined. 

I don't get why they can't just leave our weapons alone . They are catering to the casuals all the time anyway, can't they at least leave one of the few arbi drone killers alone? Not like the weapon is good for real high lv (300+). It's just a decent weapon for the one "endgame" mode we have so of course we will use it. Give us more, different endgame and we use different weapons 

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

1 minute ago, C104 said:

I don't get why they can't just leave our weapons alone . They are catering to the casuals all the time anyway, can't they at least leave one of the few arbi drone killers alone? Not like the weapon is good for real high lv (300+). It's just a decent weapon for the one "endgame" mode we have so of course we will use it. Give us more, different endgame and we use different weapons 

"Higher" being the current max rank and less than 1% of the playerbase at that rank.

[makaloff95]

On 2019-10-26 at 4:07 PM, Gurpgork said:

The gun itself is getting much more severe damage falloff, so it's not just the riven. 

For good reason, too. Higher MR players are using it as much as every other secondary in the game combined. 

So they basically nerf it into the ground? Funny thing its not the catchmoon itself that is OP, its the combination of the parts that made it strong. Makes me wonder if they are going to do the same when we can build our own AWs 

[C104]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Almighty Deity:

"Higher" being the current max rank and less than 1% of the playerbase at that rank.

?

 

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

Refer to link in spoiler on the actual usage statistics. No matter how you're trying to spin it, the Catchmoon has an absurdly high usage statistic tracked compared to every other weapon. 

That in and of itself doesn't mean much. It's a learning experience rather than a plague.

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

We can talk about nerfing the other kitguns when they achieve this level of usage. Tombfinger is at 5% in comparison to Catchmoon's 51% at highest MR bracket.

Yes, at the max bracket consisting of less than 1% of the playerbase.

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Also, I've explained earlier in this thread that the Catchmoon being weaker than every other shotgun is completely exaggerated.

I wouldn't consider the quickest damage drop-off and most severe minimum completely exaggerated.

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

The Catchmoon fires a single projectile and will only takes a reduction from the range falloff. Other shotguns have to deal with pellet spread, meaning the damage reduction is often compounded and significantly lower than on paper.

Most shotguns have little issue keeping most pellets in Target at 20-30 meters and most pellet throwers don't have a range limit.

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This exactly highlights the problem and undermines your point. If there are 5 other weapons that offer better damage potential, why are they not being used by 50% of MR20+? 

They are.

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

The problem with the Catchmoon is not the paper stats. It's the practical function of the weapon, hence why they're making it more specific to close range. And before you start banging on about other low aim required weapons being just as strong, I want to see them all nerfed too because convenience of use should be a big factor in stats.

Convenience of use is literally the most subjective measurement compared to stats.

But hey, it's that nerf mentality that's so divisive in this community. Nice choice of words. You want to see them nerfed... Cover up, your bias is showing.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

5 minutes ago, C104 said:

?

 

The only group that used that weapon 50% plus were MR27's... Ya know the highest max rank with less than 1% of players at the rank?

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-10-28 at 4:50 AM, SenorClipClop said:

Why are people so married to the fear that the gun is going to be relatively weak after the nerf? It's still going to be usable, same damage same crit and status. It's just going to have a normal shotgun range instead of the original 40 meter range. It's going to be about as good as other weapons in its class, and not ferociously better. Don't psychologically exaggerate a nerf to see it as bigger than it really is.

It will barely be usable. At the range it will be usable, you are just better off swinging your melee since you need to be that close.

Have people missed how much Catchy will actually get nerfed? We are looking at a less than 16m effective range, probably somewhere around 12m before it becomes a joke on a shot that can reach 20m. That will end up with some serious inconsistancy for players. Fulmin is already kinda poop with the 20m range limit, Arca is in a good spot at 30m and max falloff at 20m. Catchy will suffer a 90% damage decrease at 16m, that means it can barely reach 12m with the efficiency of Arca or Fulmin.

Why would I bring something with an effective range that is so short? If we saw a 10-20m falloff model, that reduces the damage by 66% at max like the other two, then yeah it would still be useful and somewhat reliable. But starting the falloff at 8m and hitting max reduction of 90%(!) at 16m cripples it.

Whatever happend to the old DE approach to nerfing in small(er) steps? Why not just bring catchmoon inline with arca and fulmin to start with and see how it goes from there?

[C104]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Almighty Deity:

The only group that used that weapon 50% plus were MR27's... Ya know the highest max rank with less than 1% of players at the rank?

Yeah I know that it just had nothing to do with my argument: Catchmoon is used by hardcores because it is useful in the one endgame mission

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Is/was catchmoon op? 

Obviously, yes.  I remember when I first got it I just thought "holy sh!t, this makes every other weapon in my arsenal redundant".   Entire mobs would die to one shot, and great range to boot!

Thing is, every single player knew this within 5 minutes of using it.  If de care at all about game balance, how did they not know this before release and dial it back a smidge?  Oh, I forgot, the devs don't play their own game.  Silly me.

And for those saying nerfs/buffs happen.  You're absolutely right.  But should it take almost a year to dial back something that was so obviously op to literally the entire playerbase almost immediately? 

Also (and maybe my brain isn't working at full potential here, always possible) when was the last time de took one of the hundreds of crap fodder weapons and gave it a significant buff to compete with/change the meta?   I can't think of one.

[Tresdin_LC]

With catch moon being nerfed I feel screwed over after spending all the time to build my favorite weapon and then buying a 1500 platinum riven for a gun that is going to have to be replaced when nerfed.

The catch moon is also what makes using a controller playable, and even if catchmoon wasn't in the game I still would only get and use one weapon, so what is the difference?. Before catchmoon I never used a secondary weapon other than leveling for mastery. Most of the time I did not have one equipped.

 

Edit: just give me harder missions and bosses, more content rather than ruining my favorite bit of content

Edited October 29, 2019 by Tresdin_LC

[RX-3DR]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

That in and of itself doesn't mean much. It's a learning experience rather than a plague.

Yes, at the max bracket consisting of less than 1% of the playerbase.

I wouldn't consider the quickest damage drop-off and most severe minimum completely exaggerated.

Most shotguns have little issue keeping most pellets in Target at 20-30 meters and most pellet throwers don't have a range limit.

They are.

Convenience of use is literally the most subjective measurement compared to stats.

But hey, it's that nerf mentality that's so divisive in this community. Nice choice of words. You want to see them nerfed... Cover up, your bias is showing.

The statistics stretches all the way up to MR10 where it starts off at 7.53% and hits 1 out of 4 by MR14 and it only grows further to 1 out of 2 by the end. The point of MR27 being only 1% of the playerbase is also not a useful statistic to combat actual usage statistics. If an infinite amount of accounts were registered and never used, then all statistic is useless because it would always result in any group of active players being less than 1%. Even if you shave off the top few MR brackets, 40% by MR20 is still a bad sign.

Compare it to secondary shotguns, this is not a primary weapon. You're underestimating how far 20 meters is on many of these weapons. An unmodded Pyrana Prime takes 12 shots to kill a level 30 Arid Seeker but does about 40% from 20 meters. At 25 meters, it's about half of that and about 10% at 30m. All of these require you to aim at center mass and a minor deviation in your aim at the edge of the hitbox can easily cut down the damage by half. The Catchmoon has the advantage of never dealing with pellet spread on top of access to Pax Arcanes. Only the Mara Detron has similar results at 20 meters. Every other secondary shotgun (Not inclusive of the Kohmak), starts becoming negligible at 16 meters, regardless of their range falloff and continues to get worse unlike the Catchmoon. 

Don't try to pretend you're some magical arbiter with a clear objective view of everything in the game, you're just as bias as everyone else on a subjective matter. At least I'm willing to admit my biases, which is that easy to use weapons should always be weaker to make up for their practical functionality. Nothing wrong with being biased on a topic that doesn't have right or wrong answers, unless of course, you're so obsessed with yourself that you only see your opinion as objective and correct.

Edited October 29, 2019 by RX-3DR

[PR1D3]

On 2019-10-26 at 11:05 AM, OmegaDonut said:

Protip:  when playing an online, multiplayer game, (PVE or PVP, doesnt matter and shouldn't matter) invest in meta at your own risk, because nerfs will happen.  If its OP like the catchmoon is, eventually it will eat a nerf.  The same thing is going to happen to your 5/5 melee rivens for stuff like Gram.  To be surprised at this point is to bet naive.  

 

On 2019-10-26 at 12:14 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

This is why anytime a mega meta technique or item shows it’s face and every tells you you need to use/get it. AVOID IT LIKE THE DAMN PLAGUE! Because it will get nerfed.

 

On 2019-10-26 at 12:53 PM, OmegaDonut said:

People feel icky because they either 1. Can’t handle not having stupidly OP gear as a form of easy mode for their frail egos or 2. Have never played a multiplayer ARPG/MMO before because anyone who has, saw the catchmoon in action and knew the nerf hammer was coming eventually.  

Like really. Who seriously plays this game and not see this coming.

On 2019-10-26 at 1:08 PM, failedtodiet said:

 So people do actively avoid using strong weapons because they're afraid of nerf in the future. This feels like a punishment to me.

There's a difference between something being strong and good for content from the gun that fires a projectile that can cover an entire hallway, infinite punch through, wicked high damage, easy headshot capability (almost on par with Arca Plasmor pre nerf, another example of ridiculousness getting nerf that shouldn't had surprised anyone, and catchmoon is worse than that), high range, little to no downsides, and a huge chunk of the player base uses it. Like you couldn't play a game where at least one person was using it. I guess it must be a 6th sense to know when something's too good to be true and preemptively expect a nerf. Like the moment you start acting like this with a gun: 

Expect others are the same, and DE is planning on nerfing it.

[Nocontents]

Just admit that you guys are seething because your hard earned OP weapon got nerfed to the ground. At least that way I can say some condolences. Try not to spew hot garbage takes like it was "fun" weapons or you are entitled to have OP weapons because of your effort.

[failedtodiet]

9 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

There's a difference between something being strong and good for content from the gun that fires a projectile that can cover an entire hallway, infinite punch through, wicked high damage, easy headshot capability (almost on par with Arca Plasmor pre nerf, another example of ridiculousness getting nerf that shouldn't had surprised anyone, and catchmoon is worse than that), high range, little to no downsides, and a huge chunk of the player base uses it. Like you couldn't play a game where at least one person was using it. I guess it must be a 6th sense to know when something's too good to be true and preemptively expect a nerf. Like the moment you start acting like this with a gun: 

Expect others are the same, and DE is planning on nerfing it.

Given that i mostly play solo endurance (so i can pause whenever i like) and occasionally hop on capture fissures, i'm gonna use anything that available to me in the game, op or not. So i don't believe in the crap like "oh noes!!, it's too OP, this will break the balance of the game !!....". To me, a game IS a game, i enjoy it while i can.

Fact is if a gun like the one is your linked video is available on real life battlefield, people will jump on it without a second thought.

And like i said before, the only thing im having problem with is the enormous amount of time it took for DE to react. To be fair, it took several riven nerfs before it come to this, but you and i both know Riven system is busted and the nerf this time is very minor, and there will be more, enough to cover all the kitguns, not just Catchmoon. But i guess it will take another 2 3 years. So yea, again, why not just enjoy them while you can?