(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Spotdodge]

This is gonna sound like thoughtless and not very constructive statement, but.

Put back the 500 kuva on Thrails, it was nice to have and made the grind of executing Thrails feel less like a waste of time that could be put somewhere else in the game
Now with the 500 kuva gone and just a relic with mods that are useless outside of Liches.

Once everyone is done with this content, there will be literally no reason to revisit this content at all.

[Willbow]

Okay, just wanted the update to release for a few days and have the hotfixes come out before I gave feedback so now's the time.

Although melee still needs some work I'm leaving that alone since the rework isn't fully completed yet but the Kuva Liches do have a number of issues that I'd just like to make you aware of AND suggest ways to fix them.

Firstly, requiem mods are too tedious to get to just kill up to three liches, grinding for the right relic to get a chance to get the right mod all while learning the right mods and combination for the lich is just too much. I feel the rewards of the requiem relics are good enough without the mods and with one of the latest hotfixes that allowed Thralls the chance to drop the mods the grind felt a little less tedious and pretty damn bearable. The other option is to have it so that you can use each requiem mod infinite times, either way it would feel more fair.

Next, the level of enemies in the lich missions means I'm limited to about three or four frames that are able to tank the damage all of which I find boring to play. This is clearly an ongoing problem since about about level 60 or 70 the damage the AI put out is too much for most frames so either make it so that Warframe health scales with enemy level and have AI damage capped at a certain point or just reduce the enemy level significantly. For those who want a challenge they could just remove survivability mods to increase the difficulty. 

Finally, the murmers take waaaaay too long to fill up, it's a bit better now thanks to some change you've made but I still think it should be a bit faster, maybe increase the amount each Thrall fills dependant on how high the Lich level is.

Thanks for this update even though it has a few flaws, I only crittisise these issues because I love the game and want to see it at its best so please do take some of my ideas on board. Thanks again DE :)

[Julienn]

OMG Hotfix!!!!  I'm so happy to hear you are adding a fuse mechanic to increase the random % dmg on Kuva weapons.  I love you guys.  I just stopped by to say that. Thank you. I wish every other developer was like you.  Will you be my valentine?

 

 

[S074]

Hello, I just read about the upcoming change on how to make a Kuva Lich.

The future planned step to create a kuva lich:

Quote

Larvling Lich creation will be truly opt-in. Some people want to see the world drown in Kuva and others just want to live a Lich free life! For those that don’t want to be hounded by a Kuva Lich, we’re changing the way Larvlings are killed in order to attain a Kuva Lich. Larvlings will have the same pre death setup as Thralls, except the Mercy action is only available to the player who damaged them last. At that point you either walk up and press X to initiate the Mercy (required for Kuva Lich creation), or just walk away and leave them to eventually die on their own after 15 seconds, thus opting out of Kuva Lich creation.

While I do like the idea, I think it should be done the other way around for some sort of lore/consistency concept. I think that Mercy killing the Larvling should be the action that prevents a lich to be made:

- The parazon is the weapon that Kills liches, it should to the same to the Larvlings. Let's say the parazon effectively neuters the kuva used

- If a larvling bleeds to death it should be able to resurrect, like a lich does.

I'm fine either way, but maybe you can consider this inversion as I see it more coherent. In any case it will be a good thing to be able to opt in or out as needed.

[GoatPimp]

Well i decided when someone else's lich spawns I will start extraction EVERY TIME, the last three boss spawns (took like 15 missions to get these 3 bosses) people just decided I dont need help with my t5 lich and proceeded to extraction. #*!% this.

[GoatPimp]

Now it threw me in the wall and killed me until I was typing /unstuck... oh and also everyone was afking while I was trying to kill it with chroma and a gun that has the liches weaknesses, still took me a minute to take the 1st part of it's health ffs

also the constant teleporting is annoying af

Edited November 5, 2019 by GoatPimp

[IvoLanka]

Hi there i just killd my 3rd Kuva and did not get a weapon and yes i presst "D" it was showing up in my foundry, so i clickt on it but it did not go to inventory i got like 3 slots free for weapons 

[Tanso_WF]

I kill larvling by mistake
after that tired stolen my rewards
I want to quit this game

[Gabbynaru]

Feedback from one of my clanmates:

Kuva Ogris needs a serious buff, as it is not an upgrade or even sidegrade to normal Ogris. It has less magazine size and only about 450 damage/shot vs regular Ogris' 700 damage/shot. It needs more damage (over 1000/shot) and a lesser MR Requirement, as it is easily overshadowed by the MR13 Kuva Tonkor (Kuva Ogris is MR15) thanks to the gimmick attached to it (no crit but huge base damage)

[1End]

Killed my Liche, got the reward weapon Kuva Ayanga BP and claimed it from inventory witch i had bough slot space to claim it, now the weapon sits in the inventory because i can search for it in the inventory but does not show to equip in arsenal weapons. Try to claim more stuff from forge, all showed up in weapons list except the Kuva weapon. So my weapon is a ghost...

[HerWonZiemniak]

A small feedback after hotfix 26.0.4.1 ...

First off - Put 500 kuva back to drop table. Also make parazon mods drop from Thralls since it actually worked.

But wait, You may ask, what about new relics ? Well put new weapon exilus adapter to silver. They're not that much of a deal really and put like 5k - 10k kuva reward as rare and there You have it. Simple as that 🙂

 

[Salenzar]

For a minute I saw that thralls could drop 500 kuva. This was the only good thing I saw in Warframe today. Please put it back. It made the suffocating grind slightly more bearable, as it was the only thing making the murmur farm worthwhile. We're going to be drowning in parazon word mods anyway, and getting some kuva made it feel at least slightly rewarding. 

You managed to make something a good thing, and before you know it, it's gone again. The kuva drop was an actual improvement. You finally made a change that was unequivocally better in each and every single aspect, and then you take it away. It makes no bloody sense.

[H8RAID]

As of this writing, I'm hunting my 5th Kuva Lich.  I'm pretty familiar with the game-play at this point and wanted to offer some feedback for consideration.  Overall, I'm really enjoying the update and I think the Kuva Liches are a good addition to the game.  Having said that, I think there is some opportunity to make some of the game-play loop more rewarding and a little less demanding of our time.

Kuva Liches

• The dynamic appearance, voice, and attributes are awesome.  I was shocked to see the Tennogen helmets were also available as Lich adornments, bravo!
• Scaling difficulty is interesting.  I welcome the tension and sense of urgency as the Liches grow stronger and exert more influence over the Sol system.  
• Absent markers and their health bar on top of the screen, the Liches don't necessarily stand out among the crowd in mission.  If they were a bit bigger, had flashier colors, or perhaps a bright aura about them they might stand out a bit more from regular Grineer troops.
• It would be nice for more of the game to react to the presence of Kuva Liches.  For example, have Lich-specific dialogue on the scanner or from Nora.  Perhaps our operators could infrequently say something in response to Lich banter.  Outside our orbiter window, if there were Grineer ships bearing the Lich flag w/ matching colors, that would be cool.
• Most enemies have limited mobility in stark contrast to Warfames.  I think Lich engagements would be a bit more engaging if they featured dramatically enhanced mobility and and some sense of self preservation.  As it stands now, they pretty much just stand there while you shoot them in the face.  I vaguely recall watching a GDC video from one of the Digital Extemes developers talking about how you used data from players to instruct how specters traverse mission terrain.  Perhaps there is opportunity to leverage a similar approach to instruct Lich behavior and mobility. 

Sphere of Influence Missions & Thralls

• Seeking out Thalls in mission is fun and engaging.
• As a tenured player with tons of materials, credits, mods, endo, etc. the end of mission taxes are inconsequential.  I think this is compounded by the relatively low percentages that are at risk.  Similarly, when you finish off the Lich and you're rewarded with all your missing bounty it's underwhelming.  Ultimately, I think this aspect of the loop could use  some tweaking.
• It would be nice to have a thrall-specific drop table with interesting rewards.  Some rewards that I think would be relevant to the Lich game-play loop are void traces or kuva.  These too would be subject to the end of mission tax.
• It would be nice for the Grineer enemies on Lich controlled missions to take on the thematic appearance of your Thrall - color scheme, energy color, etc.  Similarly, in mission have some Lich graffiti on the walls/floors or banners in mission to drive home the immersion of their presence.
• Establish opportunities to earn requiem relics in Lich mission nodes - sprinkle them in spy, sabotage cache, excavation, end of mission reward tables.  Every once in a while getting one of those relics while running the missions would be a nice feels good moment.
• If the thralls were an incremental threat, that would be welcome too.  Consider re-purposing some of the units from Rathuum and crank their levels up a bit from their peers in mission.  This would give us a different silhouette and a little more challenge making each Thrall engagement a little bit more rewarding.

Requiem Relics & Mods

• There's whole separate loop for getting the relics and running them separate from the rest of the Lich system, any opportunity to integrate these loops a bit more would be welcome.  Ideas offered above about getting relics or traces in Lich controlled missions or from Thralls would be one way to connect the loops.  Similarly, you could have thralls spawn into the Siphon or Requiem Relic missions to help connect the systems - this way you're still making progress (or have an opportunity to make progress) regardless of which loop you're actively working in.
• I've only seen Rescue and Survival for the Requiem relic missions - I'm not sure if that's just my firsthand experience or by design constrained to these 2 mission types.  If it's the latter, I'd recommend opening it up to all of the Kuva Fortress missions.  

 

[2ndPersonPlural]

I LOVE the liches.  Warframe was too easy and repetitive at high levels.  The Kingpin system and no mods modes help, and I hope there will be more content that's challenging but not just "enemies have more armour".

[MithrasWarsong]

So just when I thought nice Hotfix, Thralls are much more convenient now... Then I find this:

Apparently the Kuva weapons have a different disposition than their normal counterparts while still using the same Riven. So the stats you get on your Kuva weapon are lower than what you see on the Riven! And it's always lower. All Kuva weapons that are not original new models have a higher disposition on their base weapon compared to the Kuva weapon.

Now the huge problem is that everyone buying a Riven to upgrade their freshly gained Kuva weapon will get scammed. There is no way to see the true stats it will get, neither on Chat Links nor in the trade window.
Especially for newer players this is a nightmare. There is absolutely no chance they can know this and they certainly won't expect it!

I have no idea how such a system could make it into the live game. Are you completely out of your minds? I'm just speechless...

This has to be fixed ASAP!!

Either give Kuva weapons their own Rivens or give them the same disposition as the normal weapon. Original value or new Kuva weapon dispo doesn't matter, it just has to be the same for all weapons that use the same Riven.

[On a side note... If Kuva weapons get their own Rivens they will soon enough be weaker than the base weapons due to more frequent useage. Making all the grind to get them pretty pointless and turn them into the next generation MR fodder. So i think they should just get the same disposition as the normal variants and then adjust it based on usage statistics. Just like Prime, Wraith, Prisma, Vandal...]

[ACESTHETIC]

Reposting my suggestion from Reddit with some tweaks:

One of the biggest gripes the community has with the Kuva Lich system is how the 'Lich' part of the name makes absolutely no sense in its current state. The original idea was to make us kill the Liches over and over until we find a way to kill them permanently, yet DE decides to pull a switcheroo at the last moment and make the Liches kill us over and over (which technically makes us the liches). So it got me thinking of a potentially easy solution to this whole system:

just switch the finisher animations around lol

Why not just switch it around and make it so that our Liches die if we get our Requiem mods wrong, and they level up and get stronger with each death (maybe learning new resistances and slowly dropping old ones to encourage a change of tactic?) and only at their highest rank would the tables be turned and they would be able to kill us (if we still get our Requiem mods wrong of course), since they're at their peak and there is no way for them to level up anymore?

It would make much more sense both from a conceptual and gameplay standpoint, as it's a progressive system where the Lich grows stronger by learning, and not just a juggernaut right from the get-go. It probably doesn't take a complete technical overhaul too as DE just needs to flip it and use the Tenno's finisher animations for the first 4 ranks of the Lich, and they can still use those badass Lich 'Bane-spine-snap' animations on the highest rank, so they won't have to dump those assets they've worked so hard on. Everybody wins (?)

"But what if I don't want to kill my Lich and level them up? What if I just run away and not fight them, like a lot of players are already doing with the current system?" Well, remember how in Shadow of Mordor, the Uruk captains remember and taunt you if you run away from them in a previous fight?

While I would like to see Liches taunting us for running away, I'd also like to see more risk involved: spread the Lich's influence farther across the System if the Tenno runs away from a Lich. That way, it seems as if the Lich is spreading the news to others that the Tenno are cowards, thus persuading more people join the Lich's ranks. It's one way to solve the problem of people not fighting their Liches, especially in pubs which can become really disruptive if a Lich is left alive for too long. Frankly, with the current system punishing Tenno running away by leveling up their Lich is just not enough of a deterrent.

With the announcement of Murmur progress on unsuccessful Lich attacks, this new system could be a sort of parallel progress between the Tenno and the Lich; a race to see which one can defeat their opponent before their opponent beats them. Will the Tenno reveal all the Murmurs and find the right Requiem order before the Lich becomes too strong? Or will the Liches finally reach their final form and break the Tenno? Find out on the next episode of Tennoball Z It would make for a fresh new perspective on the Kuva Lich system while not being too much of a complicated rework (merely swapping the animations between the Tenno and the Lich finishers, but that's just a terrible oversimplification.)

Edit: Formatting

Edited November 5, 2019 by 4CETHETIC

[mazzinia]

Is it normal that a Kuva ogris ( cold based ) , with a 46% , has these base values ?!? 

I mean, I remember reading of a lot of people complaining that the blast is 472 or something like that, but seem in this case something reduced the blast to 292. Given I think it's an error while generating the weapon, are there chances that it will be fixed and the stats corrected ?

[SnowWarFr]

One of the items that I hear players asking for is the integration of Kuva Liches into our daily system, and I am inclined to agree with the masses.

A good way to help us veterans players, while not costing the casual player majority, is to integrate Kuva larvlings into our commonly used activities such as Arbitrations, Sorties, and Invasions. The casuals don't have a concern with this because they most likely may run into them while working on the star chart. Meanwhile, we veterans have already completed the star Chart and have no incentive to run those nodes other than to run farms on dark sector nodes.

The more we integrate Kuva Liches into our daily Warframe lives, the better it will be. A few may complain about Kuva Liches being everywhere too much, but you have already made the opt-in mode concrete so the duty of avoiding it is on them.

I hope that by putting our nemesis closely working with us, we can improve the Kuva Lich system by a significant step.

[SnowWarFr]

4 minutes ago, 4CETHETIC said:

Reposting my suggestion from Reddit with some tweaks:

One of the biggest gripes the community has with the Kuva Lich system is how the 'Lich' part of the name makes absolutely no sense in its current state. The original idea was to make us kill the Liches over and over until we find a way to kill them permanently, yet DE decides to pull a switcheroo at the last moment and make the Liches kill us over and over (which technically makes us the liches). So it got me thinking of a potentially easy solution to this whole system:

just switch the finisher animations around lol

Why not just switch it around and make it so that our Liches die if we get our Requiem mods wrong, and they level up and get stronger with each death (maybe learning new resistances and slowly dropping old ones to encourage a change of tactic?) and only at their highest rank would the tables be turned and they would be able to kill us (if we still get our Requiem mods wrong of course), since they're at their peak and there is no way for them to level up anymore?

It would make much more sense both from a conceptual and gameplay standpoint, as it's a progressive system where the Lich grows stronger by learning, and not just a juggernaut right from the get-go. It probably doesn't take a complete technical overhaul too as DE just needs to flip it and use the Tenno's finisher animations for the first 4 ranks of the Lich, and they can still use those badass Lich 'Bane-spine-snap' animations on the highest rank, so they won't have to dump those assets they've worked so hard on. Everybody wins (?)

"But what if I don't want to kill my Lich and level them up? What if I just run away and not fight them, like a lot of players are already doing with the current system?" Well, remember how in Shadow of Mordor, the Uruk captains remember and taunt you if you run away from them in a previous fight?

While I would like to see Liches taunting us for running away, I'd also like to see more risk involved: spread the Lich's influence farther across the System if the Tenno runs away from a Lich. That way, it seems as if the Lich is spreading the news to others that the Tenno are cowards, thus persuading more people join the Lich's ranks. It's one way to solve the problem of people not fighting their Liches, especially in pubs which can become really disruptive if a Lich is left alive for too long. Frankly, with the current system punishing Tenno running away by leveling up their Lich is just not enough of a deterrent.

With the announcement of Murmur progress on unsuccessful Lich attacks, this new system could be a sort of parallel progress between the Tenno and the Lich; a race to see which one can defeat their opponent before their opponent beats them. Will the Tenno reveal all the Murmurs and find the right Requiem order before the Lich becomes too strong? Or will the Liches finally reach their final form and break the Tenno? Find out on the next episode of Tennoball Z It would make for a fresh new perspective on the Kuva Lich system while not being too much of a complicated rework (merely swapping the animations between the Tenno and the Lich finishers, but that's just a terrible oversimplification.)

Edit: Formatting

I believe they used these animations because veterans were upset about the lack of punishment there is in the game. I am not sure if they tackled the problem correctly.

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

51 minutes ago, MithrasWarsong said:

So just when I thought nice Hotfix, Thralls are much more convenient now... Then I find this:

Apparently the Kuva weapons have a different disposition than their normal counterparts while still using the same Riven. So the stats you get on your Kuva weapon are lower than what you see on the Riven! And it's always lower. All Kuva weapons that are not original new models have a higher disposition on their base weapon compared to the Kuva weapon.

Now the huge problem is that everyone buying a Riven to upgrade their freshly gained Kuva weapon will get scammed. There is no way to see the true stats it will get, neither on Chat Links nor in the trade window.
Especially for newer players this is a nightmare. There is absolutely no chance they can know this and they certainly won't expect it!

I have no idea how such a system could make it into the live game. Are you completely out of your minds? I'm just speechless...

This has to be fixed ASAP!!

Either give Kuva weapons their own Rivens or give them the same disposition as the normal weapon. Original value or new Kuva weapon dispo doesn't matter, it just has to be the same for all weapons that use the same Riven.

[On a side note... If Kuva weapons get their own Rivens they will soon enough be weaker than the base weapons due to more frequent useage. Making all the grind to get them pretty pointless and turn them into the next generation MR fodder. So i think they should just get the same disposition as the normal variants and then adjust it based on usage statistics. Just like Prime, Wraith, Prisma, Vandal...]

I got nothing more to say than I 100% agree with what you said.

And DE this needs to be changed like ASAP because this is very problematic.

[tekmansam]

Having finished farming my second set of murmurs, I am still not impressed with the changes.  A change of -40%/-40%+40% is not what was needed.  This translates into a discreet value of 30/30/70, or a net difference of -20.  This is hardly noticeable.  Each murmur should be at max 20, for a total of 60.  This would feel much less grindy.  I also like the idea of additional murmurs telling us of at least one of the mods position in the parazon.  Avoiding leveling your lich up to r5 is extremely ideal.  I found my r5 lich at first go to be on par with trying to solo the Wolf.  And with the current system making handling lich spawns in public games a total crap shoot (will they ignore them, will they want to kill them, will they help you kill yours, will they just abort?) this means having to recruit someone willing to help you kill yours out of the kindness of their own hearts for no real gain.  Hope you have friends or a helpful clan.  As it stands this is far too grindy, and has no incentive for players to help one another.  This combined with all the common gripes of rng behind rng behind rng.  Etc.

[Kriztiam]

Good things
+ Kuva Lich: Replay all planets tile set again but a higer lvl plus having a enemy that "equal" your power attacking you when you are in his influence zone is a cool idea.
+ Weapon Exilus: Exelent addition to make unussed utility mods someting usseful again!
+ Parazon: This can be the first step to moving some utility mods from the warframe to a Parazon. Maybe can consider to move mods like Enemy sense, Master thief, Thief's Wit or even having Vacumm-Fetch in the parazon can be wonderfull.

Bad things
- Kuva Lich: Pointless, beside all the RNG needed in the process, is only to get weapons (With some RNG) or stop him to steal your drop. Finally the only reason to replay the high lvl mision where he have influence is to colect murmur (A lot of them) and drop nothing because you kill less enemys than a low lvl mission, so less resources and in general less drops (No counting at the end of the mission the lich steeal what you droped) I dont have problem with all that RNG but make all the effort needed worth someting.
- Weapon Exilus: Some utility mods like Sinister Reach can be exilus.
- Parazon: Not so important but the animation when you start hacking is a little bit longer than before and in misions like lua rescue when you are detected and every second count its not that good have that delay.

General improvements
* Can make high lvl mission where the kuva liche have influence more relevant maybe can incrase the drop chance and drop quantity a lot so we can have arbitrations for endo, Kuva Siphons for kuva, and that high lvl missions to get resources. Or even when the lich steal someting and you kill him he drops you the doble amount he steeals. I generall give me something to really want to kill him and get rewarded not only to get a weapon or stop him to be annoing stealing all my drop.

[motorfirebox]

Not sure if this is a bug or intentional, but I tried a blind mercy attack on my lich and got lucky—the requiem mod I had in the first slot turned out to be the right one for the sequence. The issue is, later on when I filled out one of my murmur bars, I got that requiem glyph. It 'revealed' a requiem glyph that I'd already figured out through trial and error. I feel like the ones I've already figured out should be taken off the list of murmur-revealable glyphs.

[Xolgys]

Am 31.10.2019 um 19:16 schrieb [DE]Danielle:

snip~

another little thing worth considering, especially now that u announced a possibility to "fuse" duplicate kuva weapons in the future:

could we also get the option to exchange duplicate ephemera for another one ? i just got my 3rd ephemera, which is actually a 2nd trickster which i obviously dont need a 2nd time...so it would be really handy to not have duplicate ones for no apparent reason. exchanging them for another would be really nice to make the grind and farm for something someone wants  less tedious, getting a duplicate one is really frustrating tbh.

would be important to limit this a bit so that someone cant just cycle through the ephemera depending on what he/she wants to use at that moment so i guess it should have an restriction, maybe even a check to only be able to exchange if someone has that ephemera already and then only exchange for one he/she doesnt already have obviously.

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

The hotfix surely improved the stuff by quiet a bit, still room for improvement but nice work. Will need to see more stuff in action to give more feedback on it.