(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Violet_Xe]

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

With the current system people complaining "it's too grindy" (pretty much nonsense seeing some people are on their 8th lich just in 4 days) and seeing requiem mods being sold straight away in market, people are saying it's an EA move to make people pay money or pay to win, which is not something good for the long run if people start spreading false narrative about it.

The it's too grindy thing I agree with you. It's a perfectly fine amount of grind BUT what you get from the lich is nothing. it won't help you progress much, if at all, and you get a shiny ephemera. Not to mention to make that weapon good you have to snap 5 crackers over it for 70 mod capacity. Not to mention this was proposed as a challenge to the players when I can melt my LvL 5 lich in under 30s. We waited several months for this.

Step 1, You grind out relics from kuva siphons (which you're only guaranteed one and even that can be stolen)
Step 2, Pray you've got the reactant to rad or flawless kuva relics
Step 3, Pray to god you get the mods needed (Which may be one of the two so another layer of RNG there)
Step 4, Kill aroudn 180 thralls to unlock the murmurs or brute force the kuva lich (And die trying over and over again)
Step 5, Get the gun (Which may be absolute garbage)
Step 6, Snap 5 crackers over the gun for mastery then sell the gun if it's not worth it

That's alot of grind for such little reward and the other rewards are already rewards you earned. You deserve that and more for spending your time, mods, and reactant on killing that lich. Ephemera are not a reward players are interested in after 1-2 days of farming. Your point that some players are on their eighth if fine and all but not all players have the time to do that. I also believe those players bought the relics or got extremely lucky because I'm on my first still and I'm playing this more than average players.

Again I agree with you, but the rewards make the grind. And in this case the rewards flopped.

[TheHappyTyranid]

Wouldn't it be pretty sweet if we could improve the lich system a little bit by doing things like making conversion a little bit more worth it and allowing us to take the spent mods and making new ones?

Heres just a few things I propose;

1. More lich personalities (This is a personal gripe as I seem to be liking male ones more than female ones... mostly because I get called friend by the males. More personalities would be a good idea IMO.)

2. If you have a converted lich, they have a chance of interrupting the failed Parazon animation and saving you. Like, a small chance, but you'd probably get a really high chance once you get enough lichs. This removes some of the punishment for players who are willing to save lichs. 

3. Obtaining the full code should allow a special node to be opened up where you can have a boss battle with the lich. This should prob only be done if the game sees that a person knows all the mods and you are literally one mod away from killing or converting the lich. It would also be great if that node could tie into railjack where you can make a lich a more permanent enemy if you so desire.

4. Lichs are supposed to have large areas of influence and tax you until they are either converted or killed; why not make it where the converted ones every once and a while come around with a little gift of resources?

5. Lich weapons should be combinable; say you got a twin stubba from a lich and it gives 25% extra impact, then you get a lich that has a twin stubba that give 40% extra impact. You should be able to combine the two to get a gun that gives about 45% extra impact. I propose making the hard cap 60%.

6.Lastly, it'd be great if the lichs that are allied with you could help fellow clanmates. That'd give a slight incentive to get into larger clans.

Just my two cents on how to improve them a little. I am seeing quite a few people who are just outright killing their lichs because they simply want the weapons, even if they already have them, yet still complaining when they find one with better stats.

[WhiteWolf3500]

I was thinking a little and would like to make a proposition on how to change the random stat bonus on kuva weapons. This is, of course, only an idea. No matter what random % bonuses have to go because they are stopping me and my friends from investing into any of the weapons we got. I can't even get the weapon I want. This won't allow me to even thing about investing into it.

So I think it could be more fun to instead of getting random % bonus of the chosen element we would get a fixed bonus but instead had more random bonuses we could get and what we would choose is the weapon we want to get.
For example, kuva drakgoon could really use some extra status chance and elemental bonuses aren't really needed on it unless we would talk about slash. At least this is how I would like to build my very own kuva drakgoon. This can be done with a riven mod but if we would have to have an RNG stat system, this would be much better than what we have now.

This way we could still keep a little RNG in those weapons but be able to farm what we want and get a viable weapon each time due to fixed bonus value. We could even get different bonuses for different types of build which would make owning few versions of the same kuva weapon more appealing.

[844448]

25 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

The it's too grindy thing I agree with you. It's a perfectly fine amount of grind BUT what you get from the lich is nothing. it won't help you progress much, if at all, and you get a shiny ephemera. Not to mention to make that weapon good you have to snap 5 crackers over it for 70 mod capacity. Not to mention this was proposed as a challenge to the players when I can melt my LvL 5 lich in under 30s. We waited several months for this.

Step 1, You grind out relics from kuva siphons (which you're only guaranteed one and even that can be stolen)
Step 2, Pray you've got the reactant to rad or flawless kuva relics
Step 3, Pray to god you get the mods needed (Which may be one of the two so another layer of RNG there)
Step 4, Kill aroudn 180 thralls to unlock the murmurs or brute force the kuva lich (And die trying over and over again)
Step 5, Get the gun (Which may be absolute garbage)
Step 6, Snap 5 crackers over the gun for mastery then sell the gun if it's not worth it

That's alot of grind for such little reward and the other rewards are already rewards you earned. You deserve that and more for spending your time, mods, and reactant on killing that lich. Ephemera are not a reward players are interested in after 1-2 days of farming. Your point that some players are on their eighth if fine and all but not all players have the time to do that. I also believe those players bought the relics or got extremely lucky because I'm on my first still and I'm playing this more than average players.

Again I agree with you, but the rewards make the grind. And in this case the rewards flopped.

It's hardly "too grindy" when you can get roughly 9 - 10 thralls per mission to find out the requiem, at average you only need 15 missions (150 thralls) which is not far more than number of runs you do to get something like rare prime part or braton/lato vandal.

I also on my first lich and halfway on the third requiem, just doing missions under the lich influence and walking casually killing thralls unless you're the type of player that rush to the end and miss some thralls on the way.

I've seen worse grind where you need 150 - 200 and you can only get 1 - 2 per day (per day, not mission)

Also, you missed my point, I was talking about how you can buy them from market that can be used to spread false narrative about P2W or being EA. My suggestion is remove those parazon/requiem mods from market and their bundles so everyone starts on an even ground, no paying to skip the grind

[Trase-Kor]

Kuva Lich Feedback:

(1) The insta-death against the lich doesn't feel right. I get that it's supposed to be a threat, but this feels like the wrong way to do it.

Potential Idea: Maybe failure to have the right Requiem mods gives you a mini-game (kinda like the hacking mini-game, with a time limit) where success sees you injure/ drive off the lich and failure kills or (preferably?) severely wounds you. The lich levels up regardless of success/failure in the minigame and the minigame itself becomes harder the higher the lich's rank to show the lich gaining experience from the fights.

(2) The smidges of requiem progress doesn't feel great when you're hunting down individuals to mercy kill.

Potential Idea: You could probably normalize the progress by giving a mission's worth of progress by awarding it for completing the mission itself. Or maybe a side-quest within the mission that explicitly harms your lich's goals? Like; take on an exterminate mission which spawns a spy vault under the lich's control - you get that chunk worth of Requiem Whispers by completing the vault or getting a Capture Target Thrall while on a Sabotage mission. So instead of hunting down ~10 thralls per mission the player does a more challenging task for a similar amount of progress. The larger chunk for a meatier task would take a similar amount of missions, but seeing the bar move more would feel better for the player.

(3) Isolating the lich stuff to their own sub-missions kinda breaks the immersion. Having a lich with influence over a sector should have a chance for lich-related stuff to spawn in the normal mission. Even with corpus-nodes; sections of the map could be commandeered (or rented?) by the lich's forces.

(4) Volt's helm looked awesome on your first showing of the lich at tennocon (on his shoulder). Maybe if they successfully kill the player they get the actual helmet instead of the bust-statue on their arm? It would be nice if the lich's looks could be adjusted by events. Maybe the player knocked off the same limb too many times and they replace it with a cheaper robotic one, for example?

(5) A lich with some of Loki's powers (mine was spawned by Mirage and has Ash's Teleport, Loki's Switch Teleport, Loki's Disarm, and Loki's Decoy) should be able to do more than just stand still while the player (in this case Ivara) is invisible and pumping fire into them.

Potential Idea: Even when hit with a silent weapon the lich should "feel" which direction they're getting hit from and return fire. They should also try to move around and guess where the player is. Mine just stood on a box staring off into the frigid horizon while I whittled her shields and health down.

Parazon Feedback:

(1) Hacking - this seems to have had an added screen shake at the start of any hacking sessions that feels disruptive. I might be imagining it, but something about the camera doesn't feel right when you initiate hackerman mode.

(2) Mercy Kills - outside of the kuva lich's thralls these seem incredibly rare. The only time I've seen the symbol over a normal enemy it died immediately. Kinda makes the mods for them pointless.

[Helmed]

Too much rng needed for kuva lich mods

Remove the eggs part of getting the mods

Also remove the 3 use times and make them permanent

 

[BaronVonLemons]

My one and only issue with the new changes is that the difficulty ramps up in Lich-related missions disproportionately to the progress being made. Completing one requiem murmur takes me roughly 5 missions worth of thrall assassinating. Within that short time span my Lich could easily rank up to 5, whereupon I suddenly have to use my singular tankiest/highest dps build just to survive and progress through another handful of missions for the other two murmurs. Hypothetically I could just ignore my Lich once it spawns but now it's a burden on everyone in my squad, and an immovable obstacle between my teammates and any attempts they'd like to make against their Liches. It boils down to there being no way to repel your Lich beyond falling on their sword, so to speak. Perhaps something to the effect of attempting to kill the Lich with a mod-less parazon results in a stalemate that doesn't increase rank but spreads influence or decreases likelihood of encountering specifically your Lich next mission? I really do enjoy this new batch of content, I'd just like to put down the sword and board Oberon tank build and face my new nemesis with a build that's maybe less effective but more entertaining.

[Radical_Dragon]

I know that everyone agrees the liches shouldn't be able to steal requiem relics, but I would also like to second that with liches also shouldn't be able to steal void traces either, I'm already suffering enough I don't need this to take longer

[EclipseIstaken]

On 2019-11-01 at 2:16 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

DEV NOTE:  Because so much is changing by design with THE OLD BLOOD, we want to be clear on how we’re handling your feedback. The majority of week 1-2 Hotfixes will speak to feedback. We want to combine feedback and stats together to iterate. To be a part of the feedback conversation please be constructive and clear (expand the spoilers below for a guide on how to write feedback), and most importantly, patient.

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HOW TO WRITE FEEDBACK: 

1. Keep it simple
Write simple, directed points about the topic you feel strongly about. Remember to be constructive and to the point.

2. Back it up
Support your points with concrete points. X has better stats than Y. This ability is less useful when considering X. Provide in-game situational evidence or a solid foundation for your argument to rest upon.

3. Be polite

The best feedback occurs when two people discuss opposing viewpoints to find a constructive middle ground. Discussion is a natural part of feedback! Ensuring that it is polite and without personal attacks is key. We’re far less inclined to listen to feedback filled with personal attacks and rude speech. We are all trying our best!

The Forums can be an amazing tool when used correctly. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on Grendel, how to acquire him, and his signature weapon! 

 

There’s nothing wrong with first reactions - but relearning takes time. We are especially interested in feedback from players who have taken time to understand The Old Blood. Thank you! 

This thread will be used to house your feedback on the newest gameplay in Warframe: KUVA LICHES.  

Expand the spoilers below for the full detailed explanation on Kuva Liches, The Parazon, new mods, rewards, and more: 

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KUVA LICHES:

Update 26 brings a completely new breed of enemy, gameplay, and reward: The Kuva Liches have arrived. This system is what the Kingpin system, first shown on Devstream #88, has become over time, despite being put on hold for quite some time! This will continue to be expanded throughout Warframe’s factions.

This system is meant to be challenging. It’s meant to be a threat. It’s meant to posit a vengeful and immortal enemy against you until you can decipher how to defeat them. It will demand your best gear and game knowledge! The Update notes will outline the essentials, the game will teach you the rest. Let’s begin, Tenno.

THE PARAZON:

The Parazon is the first and most crucial piece to taking down your Kuva Lich, but it is not exclusive to the Kuva Lich system. This is a new tool given to ALL Tenno of any level and is now a part of the Tutorial. It is an interactive tool with widespread use in the game, from basics like hacking, to deeper gameplay like decoding the means to Assassinate your Lich. 

PARAZON MODS: 
We have moved some Warframe Mods (ex: Intruder) over to become Parazon Mods, and are adding new Parazon Mods (listed below). Our approach with these is that they provide benefits the Parazon’s various uses, instead of taking up slots on Warframes. All core Cipher (Hacking) Parazon Mods can be found in Spy Vaults throughout the Origin System, and Assassin (Finisher) Mods can be found on various Bosses! 

The Parazon will have 3 Normal Mod Slots, and 3 REQUIEM MOD Slots (covered below). 

CIPHER MODS - Think of these as upgrading the tool aspect of ‘hacking’. These make hacking easier or give small benefits when hack is completed successfully! 

• Intruder: + Additional Seconds to hacking. 
• Live Wire: Shock Enemies within 24 meters while hacking.  
• Auto Breach: 30% Chance to autohack! 
• Runtime: +45% Sprint Speed after hack.
• Master Key: Unlock nearby lockers after hacking
• Untraceable: Become invisible for 18s after hacking. 
• Failsafe: 50% Chance to retry a failed hack. 

ASSASSIN MODS - These are for the new PARAZON ‘MERCY’ FINISHERS that can occur at anytime in game on eligible enemies. 

• Blood for Life: 50% chance to create a Health Orb on Mercy.
• Blood for Energy: 50% chance to create an Energy Orb on Mercy.
• Blood for Ammo: Mercy refills magazine by 100%
• Hit and Rune: On Mercy: +60% Parkour speed for 6 seconds
• Out Of Sight: Blind Enemies with 18 meters on ‘Mercy’ kill. 

PARAZON FINISHERS: AKA ‘MERCY’

Parazon Finishers are a new lethal technique that can occur in any mission on almost any unit. They are optional, as you can still kill the enemy without using them. Enemies eligible for Mercy will have a Parazon icon over their head! 

REQUIEM MODS: 
New Requiem Mods have arrived and they are the only way to end your Kuch Lich. Your Lich is immortal until you figure out the correct combination of Requiem Mods - the precise order matters, and the only way to glean the order is by seeking clues from your Lich’s Thralls and trying them out on you Lich. Pay attention to your battles!

The 8 Requiem Mods are:

LOHK
From brooding gulfs are we beheld
By that which bears no name

XATA
Its heralds are the stars it fells
The sky and Earth aflame

JAHU
Corporeal laws are unwrit
As suns and love retreat

VOME
To cosmic madness laws submit
Though stalwart minds entreat

RIS
In luminous space blackened stars
They gaze, accuse, deny

FASS
Roiling, moaning, this realm of ours
In madness lost shall die

NETRA
Carrion hordes trill their profane
Accord with eldritch plans

KHRA
To cosmic forms from tangent planes
We end as we began

Requiem Relics also contain an all new item - a Riven Sliver! A fragment of a sundered Riven. It is known that, with enough Slivers, Palladino is capable of reforging a complete Riven. 

Earning Requiem Mods: 

The Void is reacting to the Lich experiments on the Kuva Fortress, and for the first time: Void Fissures are appearing on the Kuva Fortress! But these are unlike the others, and they only respond to REQUIEM RELICS. 

There are 4 Requiem Relics - each with 2 Requiem Mods. Collect them all! 

- You can get Requiem Relics from KUVA FLOOD SIPHON MISSIONS, guaranteed. 
- You can get Requiem Relics from normal KUVA SIPHON MISSIONS, 30% of the time. 

- These can be refined like Lith, Meso, Neo, and Axi Relics. A 5th Tab has been added for REQUIEM RELICS in your Void Relic Refinement screen. 

Requiem Mods have limited a limited amount of charges (3), but only consume charges when you successfully kill a Lich. Repeat Requiem Mods in your collection will eventually go to good use. 

ONTO THE LICHES:

THE ENEMY:
-Killing A KUVA LARVLING is the first step to creating a Lich. These can be found on any regular level 20+ Grineer mission in the Origin System - not including Sorties/Fissure/Quests, etc. for now. They are only available for players who have reached The War Within or beyond, this is the required prerequisite for getting a Lich.
- You can only have one Lich active at a time. 
- The only way to get rid of your Lich is by using your Parazon with the correct Requiem Mods in the correct order - but you won’t be able to do this until you’ve found your Lich. Read on to learn how to do that.
- Only you and your Parazon can be lethal to your Lich - your squadmates can help you weaken the foe, but you are the key to victory. 

THE HUNT & THE INFLUENCE:
- Once your Lich has set its sights on you, the hunt begins. You will know you have your Lich when this Icon appears in your Navigation and Menus, allowing you to view your Lich status at any time:

THE FIGHTS:
Once you’ve drawn your Lich out to fight by destroying their Thralls and Influence nodes, fights against your LICH can go one of two ways:

DEFEAT- if your Parazon does not have the proper order of Requiem Mods. You will be defeated, and your Lich escapes, and grows stronger. 

VICTORY - if your Parazon does have the proper order of Requiem Mods. You will be victorious.  

THE VICTORY!
Defeating your Lich gives you two options:

VANQUISH:
Vanquishing your Lich with your Parazon ends its immortality, and grants you its Kuva Weapon. 

CONVERT:
Converting your Lich with your Parazon corrupts it and turns it to your side, and will have a chance to appear in battle to aid you. 

THE KUVA WEAPONS: 
When you Vanquish a Lich, you’ll get its Kuva Weapon variant that is completely unique to your Lich. The base weapons are as follows, with custom stats depending on your Lich: 

• Kuva Karak: The custom weapon of a fearsome Kuva Lich. It has greater reload speed, lower recoil, and greater accuracy than the standard-issue Karak rifle.
• Kuva Quartakk: Unlike a standard Quartakk, this Kuva Lich variant fires automatically from the hip and reloads faster while retaining its signature feature: annihilating targets with four simultaneous shots.
• Kuva Ogris: The custom weapon of a fearsome Kuva Lich. Unlike the basic version the Kuva Ogris fires detonite-infused casings semi-automatically, from a smaller clip, while dealing greater damage per shot.
• Kuva Kohm: The Kuva Kohm variant has a higher fire rate than the original. For every shot fired in rapid succession, the Kuva Kohm releases an additional bolt and grows more lethal.
• Kuva Tonkor: This Lich-variant grenade launcher hurls mayhem and destruction from an increased clip. The Kuva Tonkor deals lower damage per hit with this Grineer grenade launcher.
• Kuva Drakgoon: The Kuva Drakgoon flak cannon sends volleys of intensely hot shrapnel ricocheting around the room that do not slow down. Larger clip size and reload speed. Can be fired in wide or concentrated bursts.
• Kuva Stubba (AKA Twin Stubba): Double-fist rapid-fire bursts of pain with these dual-wield variants of the Grineer submachine gun. Higher fire-rate and clip capacity. 
• Kuva Seer: This variant pistol has higher fire rate and magazine capacity. Superior zoom capabilities, plus projectiles have a small Corrosive burst.
• Kuva Kraken: A custom variant that fires three quick shots with a single pull of the trigger, or can alt-fire burst the remainder of its clip. Higher fire rate, magazine capacity and reload speed. 
• Kuva Brakk: This Lich-variant semi-automatic hand cannon delivers a lot of punch in a small package. Higher fire rate, magazine capacity, and reload speed. 

NEW:

KUVA CHAKKHURR - A high-damage flintlock rifle! 

KUVA SHILDEG - A massive hammer for the smashing!! 

KUVA AYANGA  - An Arch-Gun that can be turned into a Heavy Weapon with a Gravimag. 

OTHER REWARDS AND SECRETS: 

If Kuva Weapons or Lifelong Companionship aren’t your thing, there’s more! The birth of a Kuva Lich from a Larvling has a chance to create a Lich with some added flair - one of Seven new Ephemeras that you can only earn from Vanquishing or Converting your Lich (if it has one equipped)! These are a bit more special and rare, so don’t expect every Lich to have one, but we will be balancing over time. 

 

Need to report a bug? Visit the THE OLD BLOOD Bug Report Megathread.

The farming of the kuva weapons are disastrous, and i really hope the mechanic would be changed in the future and i got some thoughts for it

1. Make the requiem mods unlimited use/ more charges instead of just three, it's just painful to farm kuva siphon/flood to obtain a relic u want based on RNG and the mod u want from the relic based on RNG

2. Change the drop table of requiem relic if more charges/unlimited use is impossible to implement, let's say, current requiem relic is 1.2k kuva/riven silver/amber star>requiem mods>weapon exilus adapter, is it possible to change it to Requiem mods x3>1.2k kuva/riven silver/amber star>weapon exilus adapter?

3. Change the required thralls to kill from 50 to lower, it's just pathetic to kill 150 enemies just for 3 clues, my ideal kill per requiem mod reveal is 10 per thrall, that would be more enjoyable

4. If the kuva weapons are randomly hold by the lich, can we cancel the hunt to the lich if the weapon is already owned and duplicated? players can pay credits or some resources as a penalty and receive a cool down of 24 hours to start another lich hunting

5. I am not sure that if its my only problem, but i need to kill the thralls to draw the lich attention even though my clan mates told me just to run controlled nodes to anger the lich

[Foefaller]

I haven't quite gotten to the end of killing my first Lich, but there feels like there is already a significant issue with how the system works. One which I think is the biggest from making this great.

And basically, that is the fact there are little to no rewards for the process of vanquishing your Lich, only for the final victory. This makes the grind feel grindier, and is behind a few frustrating and I suspect unintended behaviors as well (like players refusing to make attempts on their Lich if they don't know all the mods yet, which can be annoying if you are already at that step and need your Lich to spawn, which will not if someone else's Lich is already there.)

So, in that regard, I have a few suggestions to make:

1.) Make the Thrall-hunting missions rewarding in and of themselves, beyond getting closer to finding out the right mods for your Lich. Maybe it's relics, or Kuva, or Endo, or a chance for any of those, but there should be something (ideally something your Lich can't steal) that acts as a carrot to doing those missions. Obviously they can't be better than the normal ways, but IMO even a bit of something special would probably make it feel less of a slog for players to do them.

2.)Attempts with vanquishing the Lich should be rewarded even on failure.  There would be an end of mission reward and possibly a longer term reward. End of mission might be a requiem relic, or getting back some of the things they have stolen, with extra weight on relics (especially requiem relics) and currencies (I have some vitus essence I would really like back) with a already refined relic or greater amount of clawback for partial success. Long-term might be an improvement on the reward for Thrall missions, such as higher tier relics or more kuva until rank 4 or 5, or taking some of the good ideas for out-of-Thrall hunting mission encounters already mentioned in thread, with the greater influence meaning more opportunities to have those moments.

3)Clearing a planet/sector of your Lich's Influence should have a reward. I was kinda bummed when I managed to remove my Lich's influence completely from Ceres, only to find that my reward was... not getting the resources at the end of the last mission stolen and finding they had set up shop in Mars. This might not be possible, at least as a flat reward, because I've observed that it isn't a sudden takeover (unless it's because of increased rank) but more of a "mission respawns elsewhere" mechanic, so it would probably be another clawback of lost resources opportunity if anything, limited to what was stolen on that planet, but it would still be something.

4)Most of these rewards would need to greatly diminish or stop entirely once the player has collected enough murmurs to know what mods they need. I could see keeping clawbacks for attempts and/or clearing out influence, but to disincentivize player from doing something like intentionally "failing" to kill their Lich again and again to farm whatever it is they get because "the weapon/Lich isn't worth it." Once you figure out what you need to kill it, it's time to kill it.

5)Finally, there could be a significant bonus if you vanquished your Lich before you've discovered all the mods you need via murmurs. This is to entice players to keep experimenting even when the player knows what 2/3 of the mods are and not leave the last slot dileberatly empty to milk attempts until they've collected all their murmurs. Lich Rank might also play a part in the payout especially if higher ranks lead to better rewards for doing the missions, but too much so and we get back to the "refuse to attempt" scenario some players are already doing.

Now, there is one flaw to these ideas, and that's "If we're going to end most of the rewards to when they've maxed out on murmurs, what is preventing people from Alt-f4ing before finishing a mission where they've had a failed attempt they want to get right (if final reward is based on Lich Rank) and/or feel that 'too many' thralls spawned to shorten their time with getting rewards?" Honestly, beyond trusting DE to find and suspend/ban people who do that at a regular basis, I don't know. At the very least I can see Lich attempts getting saved mid-mission the same way relic cracking and rewards during endless missions are, but I'm not sure if that could be applied to murmurs as well. There is also the issue of not sticking to non-endless mission types and not killing the thralls, but I feel like that can be fixed by not allowing any extra reward being payed out if there are still any living thralls (or instead of an end-of-mission thing, make it mystery drops off of thralls, which would help with the "too many" ragequit scenario as well.)

In short, more rewards for the legwork needed to kill our Lich please!

[Kyleeon]

I'm really liking the idea behind Kuva Liches and after seeing Rebb's recent tweets I'm convinced you're going in the right direction (especially the "not stealing the relics you need to farm to be able to make them stop stealing" part) 

1. Only thing I really, really disliked so far was that the very second lich I created had a repeat weapon. I'd personally love an option to reroll the weapon if it's a repeat, and/or make you able to do something with the duplicate, like consuming it to increase the elemental bonus% of the first one up to a reasonable cap, and/or smelt it into a useful resource, something worth the grind you need to go through to get the repeat lich out of the way. If I had to choose between these three I'd take the option to reroll if duplicate.
2. As was mentioned a few posts above, the difficulty ramps up way too fast compared to the speed at which you can get murmurs. I'm already facing level 100+ armor monsters before I can finish getting all 3 murmurs, severely limiting my warframe/weapon choices. The process to get murmurs should go a bit faster with less players in the mission, I'm waiting to see how much progress an attempt at fighting the lich will reward.
   • 2.1. I'm not saying rank 5's current difficulty is wrong. What I'm saying is that owing in part to how broken armor gets, enemies go from ezmode to 1.5 mil effective HP long before you can even start actually trying to kill the lich.

 

 

[SableSonata]

Weren't Kuva weapons supposed to have semi-randomized stats? Am I mistaken on that? 

Also, the descriptions of the Kuva Tonkor and Kuva Ogris are flat-out false. The former claims increased reload speed when it's the same as the base variant, and the latter claims increased damage when it's actually decreased damage.

[AutoPhox]

I like the Lich system in general. However, there is one big drawback. If i want to play any other part of the game, the lich diminishes the fun by stealing the rewards. It forces me to have to grind the relics to grind the mods to grind the lich to kill it before i can get back to the rest of the game. Again, this system is fun, but only if i want to play it. There are two ways i can see this being fixed. either one or both would solve the issue.

remove the tax: punishment for not wanting to play this part of the game sucks. sorry, but it sucks.

create an "opt-in/out" trigger to summon the lich: killing a larva by accident because they spawn in front of your sword is forcing the problem.

I like the idea of "opt-in" because the player can then decide if they want to take on the burden of the lich and its easy(?) to implement. Just give the larva an "active lich" option when its downed, or kill it normal to avoid a lich spawn. Honestly, ive spent 3 evening grinding for relics to get mods for my lich. In that time, it has stolen rare mods, blueprints and many resources from me. I still dont even know a single one of the lich's mods needed to kill it. at this rate, itll take me weeks to kill this thing so i can get back to playing Warframe.

 

TLDR Cool Lich system;unreasonable punishment(tax);let us opt-in/out

[Violet_Xe]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

It's hardly "too grindy" when you can get roughly 9 - 10 thralls per mission to find out the requiem, at average you only need 15 missions (150 thralls) which is not far more than number of runs you do to get something like rare prime part or braton/lato vandal.

I also on my first lich and halfway on the third requiem, just doing missions under the lich influence and walking casually killing thralls unless you're the type of player that rush to the end and miss some thralls on the way.

I've seen worse grind where you need 150 - 200 and you can only get 1 - 2 per day (per day, not mission)

Also, you missed my point, I was talking about how you can buy them from market that can be used to spread false narrative about P2W or being EA. My suggestion is remove those parazon/requiem mods from market and their bundles so everyone starts on an even ground, no paying to skip the grind

   No it really is too grindy for the rewards you get considering you already ran those missions for those rewards. I can farm several prime parts faster than I can farm this one gun and that's saying alot. In public missions I have to stagger radiants to ensure we don't get more than one mod at a time and if I have to do that it's too much. This is also building off the relic system, not improving it. The old void keys let us farm dozens of prime parts with a single run. Even after getting the gun you've got to forma it 5 times to make it good IF it's even good.
   There's too much RNG in this to make the grind worth while and the cherry on top is a gun that may or may not be worth it. To make matters worse the rewards of Kuva Lich enemies are not sustainable like we've been asking for. Once you've got a weapon you're satisfied with, you're out and forget about the lich enemies except you can't because they're pests and steal rewards from endurance runs which actually is the opposite of what we wanted.

   Worse yet we waited years for the kingpin system update. Yes they have more but were judging what we've got now not what we'll have later. The best thing to come out of this update is the technology and ability to create high level enemies for future content but that's not what we're after we want that high level content now. We needed it years ago.

   I also didn't comment on the part about removing the mods because I agree with that. So I left it alone. But the statement about it being "not too grindy" isn't entirely true. Just because one game does something worse doesn't excuse what DE has done with thralls. I want to reiterate what I said before, this amount of grind is fine, the rewards just need to match it.You can think that the grind and rewards are fine but that's not how I and alot of other's feel. Calling what they're saying nonsense is disrespectful.

[Cegrin]

After sitting on it a little more, I wanted to give another two cents.

Topic: Obligation and Aversion

Part 1: Taxation

I applaud the premise this was derived from, giving the Lich a consistent presence and making it a nuisance that we want to take down.  The problem, however, is that it goes too far in this regard, as it can steal high ticket items such as identified caches, relic rewards, Sortie rewards, and the like.  This means that the Lich is quite capable of invalidating the very reason you took on that mission in the first place, making the player averse to playing on any planet where the Lich has established a beachhead (as the Lich taxes you on those planets regardless of whether you're playing on a Lich Forces variant).  This in turns dealing with the Lich into a priority rather than an alternative.  By the time I killed my first Lich, I was terrified (and not in a good way) that he was going to end up walling me off from getting the necessary Parazon mods by stealing my Requiem Relics when those procced on his planets.  And I couldn't just ignore him or go to other planets, because he was on high value planets like Neptune and Sedna, and furthermore, Void Fissures and Kuva Siphons pop up everywhere eventually. 

Part 2: Creation

Again, I applaud the base idea in that your nemesis can rise from virtually anywhere (after level 20), but again the execution causes issues.  The fact is that if you don't want to spawn a Lich, your only option when a larvaling appears is to ignore it entirely.  This is actually a bit of an uphill battle in the current state of the game wherein the ability to clear rooms quickly is king.  You can very easily end up killing the larvaling before you even recognize it as such, at which point you have a new Lich to deal with.  And here's where it gets unfortunate: the larvalings can spawn in any grineer mission over level 20.  So if you don't want to create a new Lich (like, for the aforementioned taxation reasons, or just for a break from having a nemesis), your best bet is to entirely avoid grineer nodes from Saturn onwards.  And it should be very concerning when mechanics encourage you to avoid so much content for fear of being railroaded into an unwanted encounter.

Recommendation: Opt-In rather than Opt-Out

I can deal with the taxation in a limited context, but I need to actually have a way to opt-out of this system.  It's not that I don't want to face Liches ever, but as it stands there's enough frustration associated with it that I'll quickly burn out if I start jumping straight from one lich to another.   I need to be able to recharge between them.  And right now the only way to do that is to avoid Grineer nodes, which - as a solution - simply trades one problem for another.  I think the obvious solution is to require much more specific conditions to create a lich.  For instance, they might only become a viable candidate if the Tenno uses a parazon finisher on a lich candidate and leaves them for dead, and/or they can only be created on specific nodes (eg, picture a new Kuva Assassination mission)

Edited November 5, 2019 by Cegrin

[tech-boy]

the nerf to the dagger mod that let instant anything was good thing for game balance but i kind made dagger petty point less in my opinion the new parazon kills or way more fun to do any way and work with most enemy's if and big if the opinion to mercy kill even pop up in the first and there just die by some else be for there can be mercy killed or maybe your pet or you kill them ether way the parazon finisher should in my opinion be for all finisher aka remove the old finisher stuff though problem had your reason not to see how you where talk about do that be for on a dev stream i wood also like see the parazon have same number of slot like or normal weapons not counted the kuva lich kill mods witch also in my opinion should be infinite because one there pain to farm the relic for even more so wind the mission dont wanna to work and give relic 100% wind say you fix the kuva flood do that though i have seen that happen the late so many it was fix that you can mess with out need to updata the thing again or may my just luck and not run to that bug again wind was patch all ready 2 the way get the mods or be relic system witch is bad because i dont no if just me but even with rad relic i still get copper rewards piz make if use rad it get rid of the copper rewards so have better chance to at less get the uncommon or make the get the mods rare in the relics but give you that dont have limited or you no just remove there 3 limited use so dont need keep farm for them can just have fun kill the lich and not have to worry about try to get the mods to kill the lich be for get so strong and tank it very hard to kill him with a frame that cant die easy lee like rhino and 4 give the lich more of frame ability for explained i made lich use my nekros i was hope for lich that risen the dead enemy's but i just got one that use radiation and poison witch was disappointing but understand able y that was done i just hope more ability for the frame will be give and use by the lich 5 make faster learn the kill words for your lich it so slow just to learn them it faster to guess witch made sense see how that what was plan but again the problem with the lich get so strong you need tank frame just to not get one shot it bit sad i whole to kill my lich with the frame i made him with is i bring you into this world and my go take out type of thing i guess also i wood like to see some more cool parazon like preform a finisher on a robot enemy and auto turn to your side for 30 sec or untell it dies and if time run out it dies or one that work like that but on infested enemy's though i dont no if that possible i just may it wood be the infested them self or infested or one that let you before a finisher kill with the parazon easy like increase what ever make allow to be mercy kill be easy or just in general make mercy just the normal finishers now wood be the most fun be ye just fun get them even though it rare and seem point less untell your try to kill your lich thralls or the lich him or her self

[Buff00n]

Why not have the Kuva Larvling carry a version of the weapon their lich will have?  That would at least allow an observant player to save themselves some trouble.  Right now it looks like they all just carry a Karak, regardless of the weapon their lich uses.

[Vizer_Xeno]

DE, this one is the worst of the worst update in Warframe as i play this game for 3 years long. I already see so much thread that this update mostly have negative comment on it. As for myself, after update & playing for more than 3 days, i want to say this content is nothing more than punishment & enslavement for many players. There's so much flaw in this update & mostly doesn't need to be add to this game especially on this update, although because this update those power creep & hardcore wannabe be happy right now (GLORY TO HARD CONTENT!!). I will explain the flaw on this update & give some solution that you can consider.

• RNG on RNG over RNG

Seriusly DE, did your hit your head or something or you want to make great wall on RNG? This feature is that make most players frustratring (including myself). Why is that? There's so much RNG involving in this update (overdose if i can say) after players create their Kuva Lich & absolutely doesn't need to be add & totally need to be change ASAP.

The step that involving RNG thingy after players create their lich:

1. Depend on best priority, players can find the murmur first or find requiem relic on kuva flood or kuva siphon. We don't need another activity to find knock off relic in this game (enough of that already). To find requiem relic is already frustrating because on kuva flood where the chance is 100% relic drop sometimes no relic drop & the worst on kuva siphon where the chance is 30% relic drop (i did more than 10 kuva siphon mission & only have one relic, God please kill me already).

2. After get requiem relic, players crack open the relic to find reqiuem mod that their need for kuva lich and that's RNG really stressfull & only can be crack on kuva fortress fissure mission only & the most reward inside (beside requiem mods & riven silver) is not reward at all.

3. After player get requiem mods for kuva lich (must complete 3 murmurs first), their must put the mods(in parazon) in correct order to kill or convert their kuva lich & it's already RNG because if players put mods not in correct order kuva lich will instakill player, kuva lich rank up, influence getting madness & requiem mods charges become waste.

What i see from step above i have some solution for this game that maybe can reduce the players stress (i don't want end up in the mad house because of game) & make this content more fun (of course i know those power creep & hardcore wannabe gonna mad when i post this idea):

• (The easiest way) Remove step 1 & 2. I know that's dillema for you DE because, since kuva survival mission add to this game, i rarely hear someone ask to do kuva siphon or kuva flood mission & i know the reason behind it because you want this feature (kuva siphon & flood mission) have another use. If relic mission gone & kuva fissure gone, where we should remove relic reward? Simple, here's the list of requiem relic reward:

1. Riven Silver --> put in on kuva thrall with 50% drop chance.
2. Kuva (1200) --> just do kuva siphon,flood, survival mission already.
3. Ayatan Amber Star --> just do some mission & do some looting already.
4. Requiem mods (2) --> put in on kuva thrall with 50% drop chance (let 3 charges exists).
5. Exilus Weapon Blueprint --> it's already on syndicate offering.

• (The hard way) Keep step 1 & 2 exists but there's need change, here's the list:

1. Make requiem relic 100% drop on mission (siphon & flood) with the difference where on kuva flood requiem relic is already on radiant version while on kuva siphon is normal version(no enchant).
2. Make requiem mods have unlimited use. Beware: Add this to the game make finding requiem relic & kuva fissure mission become junk & useless feature on this game once player have all requiem mods.
3. Make Exilus Weapon Blueprint as Exilus Weapon already made.

 

• Kuva Lich

When i post this my kuva lich is already lv 4 & the enemies lv on influence mission is already getting on my nerves (especially Nox & some others) when i clear one node. Kuva lich itself is so powerfull at lv 5 & enemies too (i heard that from some thread) & it's beyond compare for casual players (inhuman i say). The biggest issue on kuva lich itself is RNG(requiem mods) where players must put requiem mods in correct order to kill or convert. We don't need kuva lich do instakill when players put requiem mods in wrong order (waste charges) just make kuva lich resist when the cutscene happen & make kuva lich retreat from mission (lv up, influence spread, enemies lv up). For enemies lv up it should max at lv 80-100 when kuva lich at lv 5(because i heard enemies on lv 5 are in lv 120-130, God no wonder why power creep & hardcore wannabe really happy about this update). For kuva thrall you can reduce murmur (50 mercy kill for one requiem) that player need to unlock requiem (25 mercy kill).

 

• Parazon

Assassin's Creed hidden blade is what i call the coolest feature on this update (too bad can't do twin hidden blades) but there's some problem with it & need to be improve. I do a lot spy mission to find the mods for my Parazon but the mods is really hard to drop even i clearing all 3 vaults without trigger the alarm, so please make parazon mods drop when player do 3 vault without trigger alarm on. When i hacking console or turn off the alarm  there's always screen shake even i already turn off this feature & i lost 1-1.5 second before i start cyphering manually. Make Parazon can be use for melee or steath kill if player doesn't bring melee weapon on mission.

 

• Grendel Parts Mission

This the first time i see the hardest Warframe to get (default setting, no gear, no operator) & it's really hectic to do the mission because the enemies lv & attack can kill players if not careful. The mission itself from my perspective is very challenging but also very boring because we need to survive 20 minutes, defense 15 wave, excavation till 800 cryotic. The mission challenge itself should be reduce base on handicap that players get when enter the mission, survival 10 minutes, defense 10 wave, excavation 500.

 

That's all about my feedback & this also make me reconsider to quit playing this game (i play this game for my stress relieve not to have another stress) because so many negative aspect on this update. Now i only play do some syndicate mission or NW & ignore my kuva lich completely & if i can kill or convert my kuva lich i won't touch this feature ever again.

[Yasha-7HS]

The Parazon related to mercy killing enemies are useless if I can't mercy kill enemies. 

Most of the time, enemies die instantly and I hear the noise, but I can't do anything about it because they're already dead. 

In missions 110+, I hear the noise and either can't find the enemy or the enemy cannot be interacted with because status is king in higher level missions, thus it's busy with a heat/cold/impact/blast/slash proc and dies in front of my eyes. 

I haven't done any more endurance runs yet because I'm not used to this system, but I would imagine it's still going to be the same deal, yet the next problem being that it's just too dangerous to go through hordes to press a button on enemies. 

 

We get this annoying cool animation that the parazon is on a cord, and I can't scorpion enemies or mercy them from ranges longer than touching them?! 

Also, all considering there is almost no good reason I shouldn't be allowed a way to consistently proc mercy. Make two impact procs in quick succession force mercy, make puncture have them become available to mercy sooner, have electric proc multiple enemies for mercy just something, anything so that I can use the Parazon in more than Lich missions. I don't count hacking consoles as using the parazon, because it's almost completely passive. The mods for hacking consoles are fine. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by ShichiseitenYasha

[Knightfiery]

The only problem I see are people that go in on the public server and leaving their kuva lich to block other people's chances of having their lich from spawning. I have been blocked 3 times by people that leave their kuva lich there and it is annoying. I'll gladly get rid of the lich if its mine but these people that wouldn't are making it bad to participate in it.

 I could of went solo but my liches is level 4 at the moment and is insanely tanky enough and with the nerfs that happened, I barely do enough damage to down a health bar.

Make it so that other people's liches wont prevent other people's liches from spawning. Its annoying to have people that won't participate in update when they pick the kuva lich map to only block 3 people's lich from spawning.

SOLUTION:

Make it so that the higher level kuva lich have priority list to spawn, so that people that are leveling them or killing them at lvl 5/4/3, can remove them and the people that haven't leveled up theirs can leave theirs alive and not hold other people's liches back

Edited November 5, 2019 by Knightfiery

[bubbabenali]

And now she keeps running away, nice DE. 

How is it that my Lich at rank 5 and with maximum hate is running away from her fate, now that I know the right mod combo against her? 

Still stealing and smuggling around after the mission for good measure... 

[feralknights]

I know I posted earlier in the thread, but I gave it some time and days to try to get a better feel for it.

I've spent whole missions getting screamed at and threatened with reports because I didn't want to kill my lich (when I had 0 murmurs unlocked) because I was "holding up" everyone else.  I've got like 7 planets Lich'd now because of actual attempts to kill it and people screaming at me to kill it.  (Getting a Lich on a Disruption node is basically the worst)

I've got limited time to play Warframe in a given day, let alone week.  Right now I have to devote all of it to back to back to back to back LV80s-100s or else I can't actually play the rest of the game without running the risk of  having all of my rewards jacked, or having the Lich spawn and spreading to another node.

When I can eventually get the lich killed I'm going to do whatever I can to avoid spawning another until this system gets significant overhaul.  I honestly do like the idea of it, but I just log on and become incredibly frustrated, struggle through a couple of LV100s, and then log off feeling like I've accomplished little to utterly nothing (especially since you get nothing for kicking a Lich off a planet, and Liches steal from the whole planet).  Having it be all-or-none with no ability to really opt out is a big misstep.

edit: I also didn't get Requiem Relics from kuva floods.  They weren't even stolen and it wasn't a Lich planet/node, I just didn't get one.  Big heckin' frustrate.

Edited November 5, 2019 by feralknights

[Kainosh]

Thralls should regenerate or die a few seconds after getting downed.    Their infinite downed state feels pretty weird.

[Knightfiery]

19 minutes ago, feralknights said:

I know I posted earlier in the thread, but I gave it some time and days to try to get a better feel for it.

I've spent whole missions getting screamed at and threatened with reports because I didn't want to kill my lich (when I had 0 murmurs unlocked) because I was "holding up" everyone else.  I've got like 7 planets Lich'd now because of actual attempts to kill it and people screaming at me to kill it.  (Getting a Lich on a Disruption node is basically the worst)

I've got limited time to play Warframe in a given day, let alone week.  Right now I have to devote all of it to back to back to back to back LV80s-100s or else I can't actually play the rest of the game without running the risk of  having all of my rewards jacked, or having the Lich spawn and spreading to another node.

When I can eventually get the lich killed I'm going to do whatever I can to avoid spawning another until this system gets significant overhaul.  I honestly do like the idea of it, but I just log on and become incredibly frustrated, struggle through a couple of LV100s, and then log off feeling like I've accomplished little to utterly nothing (especially since you get nothing for kicking a Lich off a planet, and Liches steal from the whole planet).  Having it be all-or-none with no ability to really opt out is a big misstep.

if you don't want to level it and not hold up 3 other people that might want to level theirs, then go solo, you have the answer.

It is significantly harder to level liches once you pass lvl 4 than leaving one alone at lvl 1. The liches that have loki's swap, mags pull, or radiation are a nuisance already. Yes, disruption with a kuva lich is a nuisance, so dont bring it to other people as well and let it stay alive, its faster to kill a lich in groups than alone especially level 5. One execute and that is it, Its a team game and we shouldn' t hinder each other, so you and your team should be able to remove a lich in a 5 min defense, interception, disruption, etc.

Make it only your problem that there is a lvl 1 lich alive, don't make it other people's problem and blocking their liches from spawning and having to repeat another mission. We all have limited time to play Warframe and we don't wanna do the same thing over again.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Knightfiery

[Telogor]

Holy crap the murmur grind is insane.  I've been invaded by my Lich twice (Edit: thrice now, just before I finish the first murmur) already and I haven't even gotten the first murmur done.  50 is way too many.  Try 10, maybe 20.  I could easily discover the first and maybe even second required Requiem mod by trial-and-error before I finish gathering these stupid hints.

Here's an even better idea:  Ever heard of the logic game Mastermind?  Why not just make the Requiem guessing into a game of Mastermind?  You test a set of three mods, and you find out how many of the right mods you had an if you had any in the right order.  This could even allow you to keep the current level of murmur grind, since it'd be feasible to logic out the correct set of mods.

Having to farm and re-farm these stupid Requiem mods is the worst addition to the game since relics were added in the first place.  Popping relics sucks compared to literally any other game mode, and I still don't feel any more likely to get the rare exilus weapon adapter than the old rare drops from T3S or T3D.

The inflated enemy level on these Kuva-Lich-controlled nodes is annoying, not fun or challenging.  It just makes me take a tankframe to ignore their inflated damage output instead of trying something fun like new Vauban.

Getting instagibbed by the Lich just because you don't have the right Requiem mods is really dumb, especially when there's no way to discover the right order of mods except by trial and error.  You're punishing the player for not avoiding the incorrect move, when you don't give the player any opportunity to make a correct move.

Additionally, what the heck is with the AMBER STAR as a Requiem relic drop?  With all the effort put in to farm one of those relics, you think a single freaking ayatan star is a worthwhile drop?  Why is it even in the table, let alone a possible drop for a Radiant Requiem relic?  It's an absolutely insulting drop.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Telogor