Have anyone finds heavy attacks useful?

[xcrimsonlegendx]

Oh my glaive, hell yes. Its like throwing a nuke across the room.

[RedDirtTrooper]

28 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Because following the meta is the only way to play. Because killing the highest possible level enemies is all that matters. Because maximum DPS is the only important metric. Because its not possible to use a weapon just because you enjoy it.

Seriously. How many of the people that are crying overnerf on the new melee are really just upset that the mobs that they can one shot aren't quite as absurdly high level anymore? How often do you even need to do that? Even without a Riven, most melee weapons can still handle the highest level enemies that you typically encounter no problem.

This melee update is the first step on a very long road that might actually one day lead to this game having some semblance of balance. And removing the absurd scaling from the system is a big part of that. Now you don't have to spend nearly as long waiting around in endless missions just to get to the point where you weapons aren't completely overpowered. That is a good thing.

I wait out content droughts by dropping forma in junk weapons, I play non meta plenty. That doesn't change the fact that the new melee is inferior to the old in every way that matters for serious content. It doesn't change the fact that the changes to CO and BR made a bunch of mods completely redundant casualties of diminishing returns. It doesn't change the fact that for all the new "fluidity"  heavy attacks are still just the old clunky charged attacks and not fluid at all. It doesn't change the fact that polearms and whips got their range tanked in a truly mind boggling way. None of these are good things. If you think they are we'll have to agree to disagree.

[George_PPS]

It’s slow, clunky, stopping the fluidity of the game play. I don’t mind if this is a NEW addition on top of the existing melee 2.0 metas. The old metas are gone and simply replaced by a bunch of slower, awkward, ineffective attack styles. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by George_PPS

[SayikVindal]

13 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

The only time I've ever used one was by accident when trying to figure out how I'm supposed to throw a glaive now. They're exactly the same as the old charge attack (the same windup animation, the same windup sound, the same attack animation), but apparently with a damage multiplier based on combo counter.

But in any case, I can't use one when I have a gun active, so I don't use them at all.

I would say this comment is very telling.

Pure speculation, but my guess as to why this change was made was because folks were not using channeling when fighting melee that much. If that is the case, I think this change will not change that one bit. Folks will still ignore heavy attacks as a general rule, and those that actually used channeling for secondary attack styles with special melee weapons will no longer do so since those weapons are next to useless for those folks now.

Again...just pure unsubstantiated speculation...but I think this will not accomplish what the devs intended, and will likely have the opposite effect instead.

[FEALTY]

Killing Blow and anything with combo efficiency (reflex coil, focus energy) really make a big difference imo with heavy attacks (HA).  I was doing HAs and only losing 14 out 220 stacks each time.  I use it mainly with holding block + W as that makes the heavy attack and aoe and to me it felt good.  Obv this will have different feels with different weapons, but I have a feeling that a week from now, we'll start seeing builds come out that feel good and the ppl complaining now are gonna go silent or the few that remain will be ignored.

 

[FEALTY]

il y a 30 minutes, SayikVindal a dit :

I would say this comment is very telling.

Pure speculation, but my guess as to why this change was made was because folks were not using channeling when fighting melee that much. If that is the case, I think this change will not change that one bit. Folks will still ignore heavy attacks as a general rule, and those that actually used channeling for secondary attack styles with special melee weapons will no longer do so since those weapons are next to useless for those folks now.

Again...just pure unsubstantiated speculation...but I think this will not accomplish what the devs intended, and will likely have the opposite effect instead.

I think you're underestimating the power of Youtube lol.  When videos come out "LOOK AT THIS OP HEAVY ATTACK BUILD 1,000,000 DPS OMGWTF?!?!?!?"  ppl will start circulating HA builds.  Its the way things normally happen.  Personally, Ive been having fun just messing around with all the new stuff.  I dont even care if its lower numbers and to me ive been able to experiment enough that Ive found transitions between combos that feel smooth to me.  So, from my experience I think ppls close-mindedness are what is preventing them from moving forward - that's not to say that 3.0 doesnt need improvement, but I see very little reason for the forums to be essentially bukkaked with all the negativity ive been seeing..  

People in game so far seem to be positive, so its just this weirdness that i only see ppl whining on the forums while everyone else is playing...

Edited November 3, 2019 by FEALTY

[Teljaxx]

11 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

I wait out content droughts by dropping forma in junk weapons, I play non meta plenty. That doesn't change the fact that the new melee is inferior to the old in every way that matters for serious content. It doesn't change the fact that the changes to CO and BR made a bunch of mods completely redundant casualties of diminishing returns. It doesn't change the fact that for all the new "fluidity"  heavy attacks are still just the old clunky charged attacks and not fluid at all. It doesn't change the fact that polearms and whips got their range tanked in a truly mind boggling way. None of these are good things. If you think they are we'll have to agree to disagree.

You say you play non meta plenty, yet all you are doing is complaining about how the old meta has been ruined. Right...

Whips and polearms were way too good before. So was Condition Overload. But they aren't "obsolete" now, as so many people claim. They have been brought more in line with all the other options. Did this destroy the meta? Yeah, it did. And that is a good thing. Having an overwhelmingly superior meta like that is a clear sign of terrible balance. Besides, everyone is always begging for more challenge. And you can't have proper challenge without proper balance. When you just copy some super OP meta build from Youtube, nothing is ever going to challenge you.

And just what is "serious content" anyway? Hours long endless missions? Sorties? Rathuum? Sure, you may not be able to melee only through those for quite as long as you used to, but you can still do everything you need to to play the major, important parts of the game. Anything else is a minor part of the game, and therefore is not what DE should be balancing around.

I do admit, the heavy attacks themselves do still need a bit of work before they are really good. Specifically, not being able to activate melee mode with them, and having to do a light attack first is really annoying, especially with glaives. But even with that, they still aren't completely worthless. You just have to actually learn how to build for them, and use them properly. And they are certainly more interesting than the old channeling system.

[SayikVindal]

1 hour ago, FEALTY said:

I think you're underestimating the power of Youtube lol.  When videos come out "LOOK AT THIS OP HEAVY ATTACK BUILD 1,000,000 DPS OMGWTF?!?!?!?"  ppl will start circulating HA builds.  Its the way things normally happen.  Personally, Ive been having fun just messing around with all the new stuff.  I dont even care if its lower numbers and to me ive been able to experiment enough that Ive found transitions between combos that feel smooth to me.  So, from my experience I think ppls close-mindedness are what is preventing them from moving forward - that's not to say that 3.0 doesnt need improvement, but I see very little reason for the forums to be essentially bukkaked with all the negativity ive been seeing..  

People in game so far seem to be positive, so its just this weirdness that i only see ppl whining on the forums while everyone else is playing...

If your talking about chat in game, the feedback in general seems to be overwhelmingly negative to clueless as to how to do things now. Very few positive comments. A few snarky ones and quite a few "kicks", but certainly not positive praise for the changes.

[Shaburanigud]

The biggest reason why it wasn't used in the past was its wind up time.
And I hoped DE would've fixed that and make the wind up faster, hence more fluid and usable.
Amalgam organ shatter shouldn't be the must-to-go mod for heavy attack builds as not every weapon benefits from crit.

I suggest 2 ways to fix this

1. The easy way:
 Reduce wind up time immensely. Amalgam organ shatter can be changed to other utilities. Like giving status immunity during heavy attacks or increase the range of heavy attacks.

2. The hard way:
In this case we keep the wind up time. But instead make ground heavy attacks more impactful.
Give it an immense increase in range and a forward momentum mechanic. Its a "Final Strike" kind of move so it would be nice if it acted like one.
IPS could play a part in it as well. Each weapon according to their, type, is given a guaranteed heavy IPS effect once the combo gauge reaches a certain point

Impact: Enemies fly off as projectiles until they are pinned to a wall/ground. Any enemy caught in the trajectory are also damaged with 1/2 of the heavy attack damage and knocked down.
Puncture: Destroys all armor, shield and projectile weapons of enemy permanently. have +3 more range and punchthrough compared to a normal heavy attack.
Slash: Enemies fall down bending to their knees as a guaranteed slash proc is applied

To be honest, 1 is plausible, but I wouldn't mind the 2nd one even if it needs more time.
Or give it a real lot of time and add something like a super combo like this.
 

Spoiler

 

Each melee weapon type having their own unique moves.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Shaburanigud

[MSEP1]

I find them pretty useful on some weapons. Single swords are pretty quick, meaning you can deal out a chunk of damage with them at pretty much no delay. However, having the use of them linked with blood rush stacks is questionable in my mind.

[RedDirtTrooper]

10 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

You say you play non meta plenty, yet all you are doing is complaining about how the old meta has been ruined. Right...

Whips and polearms were way too good before. So was Condition Overload. But they aren't "obsolete" now, as so many people claim. They have been brought more in line with all the other options. Did this destroy the meta? Yeah, it did. And that is a good thing. Having an overwhelmingly superior meta like that is a clear sign of terrible balance. Besides, everyone is always begging for more challenge. And you can't have proper challenge without proper balance. When you just copy some super OP meta build from Youtube, nothing is ever going to challenge you.

And just what is "serious content" anyway? Hours long endless missions? Sorties? Rathuum? Sure, you may not be able to melee only through those for quite as long as you used to, but you can still do everything you need to to play the major, important parts of the game. Anything else is a minor part of the game, and therefore is not what DE should be balancing around.

I do admit, the heavy attacks themselves do still need a bit of work before they are really good. Specifically, not being able to activate melee mode with them, and having to do a light attack first is really annoying, especially with glaives. But even with that, they still aren't completely worthless. You just have to actually learn how to build for them, and use them properly. And they are certainly more interesting than the old channeling system.

Maybe you should re-read my comments, in which I itemized the problems, instead of making strawman fallacies? As someone who has played for years, and understands exactly how modding works, I make my own builds without any help from youtube. I enjoy pushing things to their limits and optimizing them. Theory crafting is my jam. What I called the new meta wasn't something I copied off of someone else. It was a result of me testing the new system and optimizing some builds.  I'm not saying that the old meta was a good thing. I'm saying this new system is just as restricting while simultaneously being less effective in any of the late game arenas where the enemy content isn't trivial.

But, don't worry if you don't like my opinion. I'm gone anyway. Random stats on weapons is my hard line in the sand. The absolute opposite of what made me love this game to begin with.

[Mikhael222]

Heavy attacks need to be more fluid and faster, but the heavy slams are so fun.  Love watching the ground bits shoot up.

[Derbon_]

The control scheme for melee is just so clunky atm.  I'd really prefer it if it were simplified. 

If you're in a no-gun state, melee button should be quick melee, and holding melee button should be swapping into melee state.  Then, melee button should be quick melee, while holding melee becomes a heavy attack. 

[Razorv2]

Ok, I read all of your comments, and Im actually suprised how much opinions exist.

Most of people agree heavy slam is good. I also agree on that. 

Some heavy attacks better than others, some of them terrible. But all of them are slow and can be interrupted. Which is bad.

Modding for heavy attack seems to work but I find it clunky, maybe I need to try different weapons. 

And people havent experimented on anythıng saying system is bad. Which is expected. It takes time to find community broken stuff. 

Animations of heavy attacks are copy paste of previous change attacks which we all know how useless and situational those are. 

I will wait until friday, maybe a little more. Maybe someone could find different thing. And maybe devs make change. But overall, heavy attacks itself still problematic. 

[FoolsFolly]

I can get some impressive damage numbers from Heavy Attacks. I can also get some impressive crowd-control by slamming and lifting enemies. Unfortunately, with good weapons and mods, all enemies will die almost instantly from quick-attacks in arbitrations and sorties. The problem is not with Heavy Attacks underperforming, but with enemies being too weak.

The only time Heavy Attacks are useful is with a Life Strike mod when I need to top off my health.

[Andele3025]

Only path of useful* heavy attacks:

1. Pick Scythe (for full on edge), Nikana (of either 1h or 2h flavour depending on your level of weeb), Tonfa (for the more manly but less cool edge), Claws (for the women of culture and xmen fans), Machete (which might ironically be the new zaw equivalent in low effort power), possibly Dual Daggers (aka Fang Prime fans finally getting their day in the light)... ok ill mention normal daggers as well but thats just for the no fun type of masochist.
2. Apply the following mods: Prime Pressure Point, Prime Reach, Killing Blow, Corrupt Charge, Spoiled Strike, Spring Loaded Blade and possibly a attack speed mod and CO/augment/life strike or dual stat cold and toxin mod for viral.
3. Go through missions holding block and spamming the heavy attack and only the heavy attack as everything in a 7+m radius keeps dying to the forced slash procs of said weapon types on heavy attacks.

*Warning may cause you to suffer from severe boredom, annoyance at the lazy porting, replacement of the heavy attack keybind with lmb or e, puzzling thoughts on who at DE decided to cut apart the stances that used to be good and restitch them together using animation locks and slowdowns as glue while at the same time wondering what person kept them in check and buffed most of the really S#&$ stances and knew what the few good/fun to use attacks were on some weapons like S&S.

[Nu_caa_mas]

On 2019-11-02 at 5:55 AM, Razorv2 said:

Title. I personally find them garbage. Slow, unreliable and drains combo. Dont bring amalgam organ shatter mod thing into argument, it breaks all of the "fluid combat" vibe on this update. We made melee fluid but you should use heavy attack which is forced and sluggish. Big no from me. Range these attacks covering is bad too. Damage is also bad. Like is there anything left to see this thing as positive change? 

Though I dont want to complain without making some suggestions. So :

- heavy attacks should cover more area on a cone,

( not like slide attack. But If we could get area same as Block area with weapon range, that would make very significant difference.) 

- make heavy attack animation speed scale with attack speed.

- Decrease drain on combo counter WITHOUT zenurik focus school. 

Post your thoughts here and I will carry this on to feedback. We can make this so it does not sound like single voice rather an community voice. I will honor your name on the post I will make on feedback by mentioning in that post. 

My zenistar disc now reach 110s, thats usefull.

however i agree with u  heavy attacks should cover more area on a cone.

 

[TenebraeAeterna]

I'm not sure yet.

I use the Caustacyst, and having the charge-attack converted into the heavy-attack is very...different. The increase in damage feels quite nice when simply using the Scythe, but the focus is now standard melee...rather than the acid-trailing projectile. With that said...I haven't done enough testing on priority targets with support, and I'm wondering just how effective it'll be against Liches. Noxes seem to go down pretty fast.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I really feel that heavy attack damage bonus should be exponential with combo meter ×1.5^n for example.

Not that much a power creep because building and maintaining ×12 combo need some dedication.

[Lone_Dude]

DE didn't even bother to add new animations for these so I don't want to use them even for style points.

[Nope]

Personally no. Outside of tempo royale and exodia hunt, I've never been a fan of slam/heavy attacks, that's just my preference. While I enjoy the fluidity of the new system I find the heavy attacks counterintuitive. Lifted status while interesting and a pretty reliable cc, just feels off; perhaps a speed buff or tying it to attack speed would help. The heavy swing I quite like, but again feels like a break in momentum and could be sped up. The way it is now I don't see myself ever modding for it or using it in higher level combat.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Nope

[Arkandae]

Heavy slam were very usefull for grendel quest, especially with broken scepter passive.

[Traumtulpe]

If you build for 90% combo efficiency they are good for taking out otherwise slow to kill targets. Problem is you need 2 mods for this that, reducing your overall damage significantly.

I use them currently and they are fun. One punching thralls where I would otherwise have to attack for a while. Of course with different mods my regular attacks might kill those just fine, and actually, my guns oneshot them as well without any buildup.

I believe heavy attacks might need a buff. Something like 50% combo efficiency baseline or an area of effect. Or both.