Ember is hot Garbage

[Raikh]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb ShortCat:

Unfortunatelly, this theory crafting gets smashed by reality, more precisely by logarithmic Armor scaling. This means, if you do not strip Armor completely, enemies will have enough DR to reduce damage to a fraction. As a result, when enemies get tougher and you want your Inferno to deal some damage, it becomes necessary to use Fireblast while Ember's bong is full.

 

Which is a trade-off you'll simply have to make. Especially if you spam meteor your bar fills so quickly again and the stagger/knockdown of firelbast makes for some room to have it fill up again. Dropping form 90% to like 76% I think it was is huge loss to EHP but is still a solid value, especially when you have ADP stacked up which gives you some more leeway while it stacks back up again

Main problems boil down to the sheer amount of energy that sort of gameplay requires and that Fireblast stops on every pebble on the ground.

Its also weaker than frames who just get their 90%+ DR for free which is to say that there is certainly room for a lot of improvement on the Ember rework. But quite frankly there are now a lot fo frames worse off than her and before the rework she was abully for lv30 enemies who was in everytihng else among the worst frames in the game.

I'm not arguing she is top tier now, but she is certainly not bottom either.

[ZenHare]

20 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Unfortunatelly, this theory crafting gets smashed by reality, more precisely by logarithmic Armor scaling. This means, if you do not strip Armor completely, enemies will have enough DR to reduce damage to a fraction. As a result, when enemies get tougher and you want your Inferno to deal some damage, it becomes necessary to use Fireblast while Ember's bong is full.

 

This isn't a problem limited to Ember. At certain point, 4xCP is better than ANY other option. And no, we do not need to be balancing warframe for 4 hour long solo survival missions which is about the most ultra niche playstyle in Warframe.

 

[ZenHare]

24 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

have adaptation and two graces , still squishy 

Arcane Grace is your problem.

[Arcira]

I´ll give people some time until there hype is finally over and they realize what they actually did...

But here are some hints for people who actually care:

- do the math on DR and the actual difference between 50% and 90% and now you know why the temperature randomly start to increase much faster close to the maximum

- finally no random cc duration to worry about because there is none to being with (unless you want to spam 75 energy every second)

- what do you think 50% armor reduction on heat damage actually does? If you said delay the time until armor absorbs 99% of your damage you are right. Nothing but a placebo.

- combined Vauban and Ember feedback thread .. I´m sure they take there time to organize the post afterwards

Ye gl with Ember

[ShortCat]

2 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Which is a trade-off you'll simply have to make. Especially if you spam meteor your bar fills so quickly again and the stagger/knockdown of firelbast makes for some room to have it fill up again. Dropping form 90% to like 76% I think it was is huge loss to EHP but is still a solid value, especially when you have ADP stacked up which gives you some more leeway while it stacks back up again

A lvl 100 HG has 7333 Armor, if you reduce it by 90% to "only" 733, the same HG will still have slightly over 70% DR left. At 215% PS Inferno deals 5400 on impact and ~1100 over time. This is reduced to ~1600 and ~330 damage respectively. This seems promissing until you realize this damage has to chew through 38k HP. 
My point is, you are better off just shoting at it.

16 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Main problems boil down to the sheer amount of energy that sort of gameplay requires and that Fireblast stops on every pebble on the ground.

Yes.

17 minutes ago, Raikh said:

and before the rework she was abully for lv30 enemies who was in everytihng else among the worst frames in the game.

Actually she wasn't, becasue Ember had scaling with Accelernt and other fire damage buffs combined with weapon scaling. In higher lvls WoF was used only for its CC. Now she neither has CC nor weapons scaling.

21 minutes ago, Raikh said:

I'm not arguing she is top tier now, but she is certainly not bottom either.

I did not considder Ember bottom tier befor her rework; low but not at the bottom. Maybe those different views result in different expereinces.

 

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Midas said:

Then your feedback is not productive friend. You must include solutions to the problem. I’m sure they’d love to hear reasons and how to fix it.

No, he's right. Presenting solutions is great, but pointing out problems is sufficient for productive feedback.  

I don't play Ember and can't comment on the accuracy of the feedback, but the nature of it looks absolutely fine.

 

[Raikh]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb ShortCat:

A lvl 100 HG has 7333 Armor, if you reduce it by 90% to "only" 733, the same HG will still have slightly over 70% DR left. At 215% PS Inferno deals 5400 on impact and ~1100 over time. This is reduced to ~1600 and ~330 damage respectively. This seems promissing until you realize this damage has to chew through 38k HP. 
My point is, you are better off just shoting at it.

Yes.

Actually she wasn't, becasue Ember had scaling with Accelernt and other fire damage buffs combined with weapon scaling. In higher lvls WoF was used only for its CC. Now she neither has CC nor weapons scaling.

I did not considder Ember bottom tier befor her rework; low but not at the bottom. Maybe those different views result in different expereinces.

 

Yeah but if you press 3 at full Immolation (90%) then you get a complete armor strip. I'm very well aware of the armor calculations and scaling in the game and that doing only partial armor strips isn't nearly as useful.

The point of Inferno is AoE you press it and then you yourself kill whatever is in front of you. Most AoEs in the game have the problem of just shoot it, especially against armor and against unarmored enemies Inferno does enough damage for it be worth pressing while you still use your weapons, its a supplement not a replacement.

Accelerant only increased heat damage and heat procs were insanely bad until this patch. Yes she could provide heat damage via 2 augments but that would mix on radiation and gas weapons which meant you needed to use weapons that were compatible with the buffs so the heat damage would stay heat damage, which leaves only corrosive and viral as options and if you build wepaons with raw heat then you had a so much worse match up compared to other elements against the different health types and a very useless proc on top of a need for armor strip to make it beat corrosive/radiation against armor even with the dmg buff and even without armor Gas procs are jsut so insanely strong and heat sadly doesn't improve the damage of gas procs, only toxin damage does.

And even if you got a sizeable damage icnrease out of focussing on heat so much you needed excessive external help to make Ember survivable enough to live through the content where those damage buffs are useful since lv100 enemies evaporate under the gaze of unbuffed weaponry just the same, most of the buffs jsut provide overkill values.

If heat procs would've been as good as tehy are right now and Emeber had personal means to survive damage form enemies past 150 then I would agree that she had a place, but there are so many other buffers who can provide general and partially also more effective damage buffs while having the tools to survive and thus outclassing her.

Firequake was decent CC which certainly was useful but also not reliable enough to relaly make her live against high levle enemies, it was a great addition but she didn't have the tools to capitalize on it really well.

[Fiedra]

I still think immolation getting to 90% should cause WoF to happen, so there's a reason to keep the overheat bar both low and high, depending on taste.

[NoelleAllogene]

Agreed.

There was a reason why my Ember usually comes on top in terms of killcount. 235% Power strength and.... ACCELERANT. Yes, people Accelerant were actually Ember deadly buff.But people are too blind to see that.

Now? With Accelerant gone, she basically just a cigarette lighter.

And anyone's notice that Reworked Ember energy management is too complicated and even more inefficient? I mean, I rarely out of energy back then, even with only 90% efficiency. Now, with 125%, I always out of energy because spamming 3 to prevent energy usage with skill 2 is actually makes her losing energy fast.

Edited November 2, 2019 by dataman88

[NoelleAllogene]

3 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

If you're  not modding max efficiency on Ember, then you're the problem. New Ember is great.

great. Now Ember can only built towards ONE right way. Nah thanks, I'd like to keep my 235% strength.

[Miller_Genuine_Draft]

How nice it would be if people had a choice which Ember they wanted to use.  The old with Accelerant / World on Fire or the "New".   

I personally got used to and enjoyed using the old version on the lower tier levels such as Syndicate missions.  Wasting time on trash mobs is just that, a waste of time.  World on Fire burned right through them beautifully.

Of course its just a matter of opinion, but for me Ember isn't useful anymore.

 

 

Change isn't always a good thing...................

Edited November 2, 2019 by Papa--Emeritus

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Papa--Emeritus said:

How nice it would be if people had a choice which Ember they wanted to use.  The old with Accelerant / World on Fire or the "New".   

I personally got used to and enjoyed using the old version on the lower tier levels such as Syndicate missions.  Wasting time on trash mobs is just that, a waste of time.  World on Fire burned right through them beautifully.

Of course its just a matter of opinion, but for me Ember isn't useful anymore.

 

 

Change isn't always a good thing...................

i enjoyed playing old ember in arbi, eso (even though ive long since come to hate it) mid to endurance. people say she was low tier clear which always cracks me up. shes now micro management "forced" power spam. something that i find boring and unecessary as what use are weapons if you can just power spam, she had such a nice mix of power usage and weapon usage before.

watch out banshee players if this is anything to go by, DE will remove sonar because its banshees best skill.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

12 hours ago, ShortCat said:

and dependencies.

This is the worst of things, the problem with the Previous Ember was that she was Dependent on her 2 for dealing damage, stunning, making sure enemies around her would actually die. Now, no enemies die around her, there's effectively way more enemies around her and DR is meaningless compared to that, not like Ember has a big HP pool and if she wants to stay alive she's depending heavily on the wonderful number 2, again.

Inferno is the only worthwhile damage ability, Spamming is necessary, she went from relying plentifully on her 4, to relying plentifully on her 4. Also the Damage Per Second is halved if you aren't running Immolation, just what...

The damage Fireball can deal at 8x Combo is great, but the cost on it before reaching the max Combo makes previous casts very devalued, the highest damage she deals with Fireball is on A SINGLE target, also the radius is tiny.

The ideas for the rework are ok but the execution is not worthwhile. If the Dependencies (so called synergies) could go away, that'd be amazing, unbelievable her "synergies" are seriously worse and generate way more dependencies than Revenant.

Edited November 3, 2019 by ScytodiDaedalus

[DroopingPuppy]

Although her kit is dramatically changed(and the mechanism is flawed at best for now), but at least it is better than before. Ember was effectively removed from game for a year and a half of year, and there is no way to make it even worse.

For now at least she is playable, unlike before.

Edited November 3, 2019 by DroopingPuppy

[zoffmode]

Idk how you say Ember has problems staying alive. She's an incredible tank now. Her nuke is also able to dish out good damage. Only time it can't is vs armor in which case she just strips it. You really can't compare every frame to Saryn. That's a horrible benchmark.

Perhaps the window for increased energy loss is too short, but that can easily be adjusted. Her 1's feel is much better but ability is still trash. Also while new FX effects are pretty, it can be too much in tight spaces. But overall? I've been really happy with Ember rework. Fills me with joy to finally have my girl be viable.

[MrTitan123]

Hot garbage? Garbage? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Holy S#&$ you’re wrong. Slap on an efficiency build, Rage, Healing flame, and you can shrug off level 90’s and above if you manage her immolation well. Max immolation when venting fire blast strips 100% armor instantly, and procs heat to add bonus power strength for Inferno to nuke everything.

And no, Ember’s new kit is not about pure damage like it was before. This version of her is meant to reward proper immolation management with damage reduction, increasingly powerful fire damage, and meteor nukes against unarmored enemies.

Before you criticize something, be sure to try it first, dude.

[Fiedra]

13 hours ago, Papa--Emeritus said:

Wasting time on trash mobs is just that, a waste of time.

Hey, I actually have a couple suggestions for your trash mob slaying needs. I know it's not old ember, but they're viable alternatives in low level missions.

-Hildryn's 3 can mow through low level enemies like they're butter. And you don't have to worry about energy management at all.
-Equinox basically does what Ember used to do with one extra button press (sometimes not even necessary!)
-Atomos chains through multiple enemies and deals heat damage, and you can mod it for both punch through (more aggressive chaining) and extra range without worry when it comes to low level enemies.
-Gaze kitguns also got that ability more recently, and you can build them for either crit or status.
-Ignis (Wraith). nuff said, right? Its praises have been sung many times. you can even equip [Combustion Beam] to give it even MORE splash damage!

Edited November 3, 2019 by Chicadino

[IceColdHawk]

23 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

If you're  not modding max efficiency on Ember, then you're the problem. New Ember is great.

How is she great? All her abilities just deal damage and not even a lot of damage. I was able to kill heavy gunners with vaubans new armor stripping bastille and photon strike just fine whereas ember was struggling and required to spam abilities and taking too much time. When a CC frame murders better than a fire frame, you know something is wrong... They removed her literal best ability for...yet another damage reduction that also drains your energy...if you're not willing to keep casting fireblast for 75 energy or whatever energy it still costs after efficiency.

Ember feels like you're better off not casting anything and just using your weapons.

[Zebiko]

Ember is great and very strong. You need to max your efficiency and get range up to 50m, to match ember's passive. Power strength isn't that important because of her armor stripping and passive, but you need some for atleast higher damage reduction.

[Teridax68]

I could not agree more with the OP. Prior to the rework being launched, I was apprehensive about her changes, as her kit looked spammy, overly focused on Gauss-style resource upkeep, and unlikely to do well at higher levels even with the armor strip and damage reduction both introduced as band-aids to broken enemy scaling systems. I playtested her a few times, using a variety of builds (with focus on high Strength), and can't help but feel my apprehensions have been confirmed. I don't like having to constantly press 3 and waste Energy just for the sake of a resource minigame, and once the initial spectacle of the meteors fades, what's left is a rather boring 4 ability that doesn't feel that much more interesting than the old World on Fire. Beyond that, Fireball's still crap, particularly as the new 4 is cheaper to cast for more damage.

What makes this all the more sad to me is that this doesn't feel like a balancing problem: no amount of tweaking of Ember's current numbers I think is going to change her new core design, which I think is fundamentally flawed. She's still going to be this spammy frame whose shallow gameplay is masked by busywork, and whose contributions ultimately boil down to a subset of Saryn's, who already does the armor removal and nuking a lot better. Ember could've distinguished herself by offering more and better crowd control, but unfortunately that part of her old kit got gutted too. We should perhaps give her a little more time to settle in, but I already feel like she needs a new rework, one that doesn't design entire core aspects of her playstyle around band-aids to a broken game environment, and that tries to introduce genuine gameplay and interaction with enemies, not resource management gimmicks.

[Rhythmholic]

Modded right, She could survive well into 150-200 (Maybe more, didn't go past that cause I was getting bored)
Her overall kit have good synergy if used correctly with the right mods.
Ember's a different frame from what she was when she was first released, get over it.

Although I do agree with her 3 having a hard time hitting most things.
Hopefully they fix that.

[ZenHare]

So how high have other people managed to get their damage bonus so far? I got up to a little over 300% with a 224% strength build. I was using Fire Blast to fuel it, but that may have been a mistake. It's kind of funny as it is kind of like Accelerant but it doesn't have an upper cap. It is just getting really high would require a very large pack of mobs. On the bright side, it works with any weapon. At 260% bonus it feels a lot like Molecular Prime where all your damage is doubled at whatever you're attacking.

Edited November 3, 2019 by ZenHare
Spelling

[TheArcSet]

On 2019-11-02 at 1:06 PM, ShortCat said:

Ember rework completely changed her essence and left only the fire theme as a reminder of her past self. This new adaptation is a lesser version of the old flame mistress, as her design is a patchwork of already existing abilities and mechanics without a clear design or distinct identity.

Fireball remains as terrible as it used to be. Its offensive potential even with combo meter and stacking damage nature is pointless, because it still competes with weapons against single targets and with Inferno in terms of AoE, while Inferno costs only 10e per target, compared to Fireball’s 25e. Fireball has little to no place in now Ember’s energy hungry skill set. Not to mention the redundant 2.5 seconds charge mechanic with doubled energy costs, which ironically doesn’t even work with Fireball Frenzy Augment. Its contribution to bong charge seems like the only remaining use, but it even fails in this regard; I will explain it later.

Immolation is meant to be a centerpiece of Ember’s kit. It successfully reaches this goal with extensive micro management and dependencies. Deceptively free maintenance costs successfully hide uncapped overheat tax as well as frequent 75e expensive regulation via Fireblast. All those intertwined skills forge a spammy and thus energy hungry kit, with a lot of busy work for little payoff.

Fireblast deals no damage; knock back CC is short, highly inconvenient and has wonky LoS detection. Its clunky Armor strip utility is the only viable feature, however against non-armored targets this skills is almost pointless and seems more like a band-aid for Armor.

Inferno is mediocre. Its potential damage relies on Fireblast’s armor strip as well as massive ability spam, due to a target limit of 10 units per cast. It is possible to nuke lower levels, but get ready for some unimpressive and tedious button mashing. The feature to spread fire debuff is highly unreliable, especially since dead enemies cannot spread it.
Inferno has no initial energy costs and can be activated without targeting anything to fill the bong for free. This neat interaction makes Fireball completely pointless.
At last, WTF is this cartoony meteor summoning? It is hard bias from my side, but maaaaaan does it look silly and out of place.

In the end, Ember brings very little to a team. Her nuke potential falls off around lvl 70. In higher lvls Ember also struggles to stay alive, because she has no CC and cannot kill fast enough. As a result, you would have to invest more into survivability at the cost of nuke power, which makes her even less dangerous in the process. This leaves only clunky Armor strip as a possible contribution.
With careful ability usage Immolation’s DR can be combined with Adaptation for some survivability, but then Ember becomes just a walking weapon platform. At least Fireball Frenzy is still an option.

Ember’s nuking role is modeled after Saryn, but Ember pales in a direct competition. Bong joggling is a less successful Gauss rip-off. Augments can transform Ember into a semi-support, which works similar to Nezha, but again Ember falls behind.
Finally, Ember is just not a joy to play.

I was very worried when I first heard the proposed changes.
Despite Equinox being very slightly similar with maim, although not really, at all, Ember was the only constant DPS frame and Accellerant made her powerful enough to handle level 60s enemies easily, occasionally pushing higher.

Now she only has 2 damage abilities and lot of the damage potential in those is predicated on not killing enemies up front.

At least we can spam inferno, but that just turns her into a mesa imitator.

At the very least I'd like to have a world_on_fire augment, so she can still fulfil her old role, with the new procs letter her hold her won in endless.

For improvements to her current form:

*Environmental splash damage/procs/wild_Fire that isn't just based on living enemies moving about.
*A way to charge fireball without waiting around and a slow decay on the charge, so she can fight in a similar way to Nidus, but with different cc.

*A decay on her passive, rather than only having it active when close to living&burning enemies.
*Make the fire buff from her 3 stick to frames for a bit after they encounter it, or just trigger from the area, regardless of where the edge is.

Edited November 3, 2019 by TheArcSet

[ZenHare]

2 hours ago, Rhythmholic said:

Although I do agree with her 3 having a hard time hitting most things.
Hopefully they fix that.

I think there is a logic to it. We are just not familiar with it yet. Walls block it obviously, but trees and rocks and crates may not, etc. Even though it is a limitation, I like it. It requires you to think a little and position yourself before firing off the ability. Other non-LoS abilities are just, "Press da button," in comparison.   

[Djego27]

12 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Although her kit is dramatically changed(and the mechanism is flawed at best for now), but at least it is better than before. Ember was effectively removed from game for a year and a half of year, and there is no way to make it even worse.

For now at least she is playable, unlike before. 

Well the WoF issue the community had could be fixed at lower levels by just using overextended or double tab the ability 5-6 times per minute(what is way less button mashing then the current Ember). The only thing it really screwed over was it's use for CC at high levels, given it became with accelerant spam to expensive to be worth it, but that never affected the people that complained in youtube guides or her on the Forums about the frame.

While the current energy use of Ember(being a energy hungry before the rework as well at high levels) is absolutely ridiculous, the rework adds tons of micro management(what the old Ember had more then most other frames in the game) that does not allow you to use your energy effective and feels overall meaningless. The new Ember design tries the same thing(press 4 for dps) that people where not satisfied with the frame for years while removing her actual main source of damage what was weapons build around accelerant. Also because DE stripped the frame even the DR(what is worse then on other tank frames) feels not even like a big improvement, simply because you get shot much more now.

Fireblast and Inferno are a incredible energy ineffective and slow way to kill armored stuff at L100 and it is actually worse vs other factions because the HP scaling of non armored units is higher. WoF did also not deliver in that regard, however WoF was at least good as CC and Ember had accelerant. Given that more or less nothing changed in the basic idea that Ember uses guns for damage at higher levels it is beyond me why DE removed accelerant, the single reason why Ember did perform very well in that role, just like Chroma. Ember basically went form a frame that had lots of AOE for lower levels and crazy weapon damage plus CC for higher levels to a frame that has a kind of meh damage reduction, a Inferno that scales just a little bit better then WoF did(leading to the same, shoot things to kill at high levels), incredible energy hungry and limited CC(that also kills your DR) and also does 3 times less damage with weapons now.