Another prime which negates the grind of it's original?

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-11-21 at 7:34 AM, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

So far it's basically easier to go the prime route on many frames now (nekky, mesa, limbo, atlas etc)

Only so long as it's available. Once vaulted, newer players will either have to grind it the old way, or else buy parts with plat (which is probably easier even when not vaulted).

Keep in mind they also nerfed certain Mirage requirements from her quest, making her easier to acquire outside of the Prime.

[Kaotyke]

Maybe I should have not farmed Valkyr all those years ago. I mean, it only took 3 years for the prime to come.

Damn greedy developers. Making all my effort worthless. I mean, I could play the frame for 3 years before the Prime was a thing, but who the hell cares about that?! Damn them!

[FlyingDice]

Meh, it has always been like this. With very few exceptions almost every prime is easier to obtain than the standards, especially frames like Equinox, Mesa, &c. This has only become slightly more so the case over the years. I have every prime frame except for two newer ones I haven't bothered building, but I'm still going back and filling in my mastery for standard frames. It's not really a big deal.

[MBouh]

Prime are not easier to get.

Take vauban prime currently : 2 rare parts in 2 lith relics. The difficulty to make this warframe is at least akin to Equinox. And that's not even counting the materials to craft the parts (hello cryotic).

Prime are *sometimes* easier to get than regular versions *if they are not vaulted*. Well, this is still not true actually. Farming has been made easier with disruption to get axi relics, but you still need to farm these relics and then the parts in the relics.

Ivara grind was not that tedious. It is when you don't like spy missions or when you want to be done with it in a day, something you don't expect with prime warframe.

But if you counted all the time it took to get the relics and open them to get even the most easily accessible prime warframes, you would see the grind it already is.

One thing diminish the impression of grind: the passive acquisition of the required things. You get some parts while opening relics, and you get relics while doing some stuff.

But it can also happen for regular prime: spy missions reward very useful mods and a lot of affinity, so the farm went very well for me. Equinox farm gives affinity too and potential tellurium. Nidus gives relics and mutagen masses. Etc. It only takes you to see what you get with it during the farm to make it better. And it's always easier if you don't try to rush it.

 

[tzadquiel]

On 2019-11-21 at 2:34 PM, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

lots of words

so, essentially, you want others, including new players, to have it as difficult or grindy as you did? that is noble, tenno. congrats

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

58 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

so, essentially, you want others, including new players, to have it as difficult or grindy as you did? that is noble, tenno. congrats

I think yourself and many others who assume i want more grind couldn't be more wrong.

The point wasn't about increasing the grind it was about creating inherent worth back to the primes so that we have a desire to farm them and they get some of their status back and so we don't just "skip to the good bits".

I tell ya what, why don't you explain WHY a prime frame should be easier to obtain than it's normal counterpart? Add some discussion rather than just a liberal dose of sodium chloride.

Making the primes require the normals to have been mastered or used in the crafting etc just seems like common sense and a logical sense of progression.

 

[tzadquiel]

1 minute ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

The point wasn't about increasing the grind it was about creating inherent worth back to the primes so that we have a desire to farm them and they get some of their status back and so we don't just "skip to the good bits".

  nice try. but whatever your point is, this would be the result. making it just as hard for others to come. you should wish others well, and possibly to have things in a better way than you, not the other way around, just because you had to go through the grind. 

1 minute ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

I tell ya what, why don't you explain WHY a prime frame should be easier to obtain than it's normal counterpart? Add some discussion rather than just a liberal dose of sodium chloride.

primes, whether it is prime packs or unvaulted primes, are income source for DE, why would I not want them to get the bill so they can add more things to Warframe? 

I am above all this 'difficult to grind frame/weapon', and it was never a problem to me. I found a quick way of making plat, and what I earn, I use to degrind my game. this develops my real life trading skills too even further.

in other words, why would I respond to a problem that is created personally by a certain player upon themselves? 

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

On 2019-11-24 at 3:18 AM, SordidDreams said:

Hell no. Why do you think grind exists in WF? Because it's fun? No, precisely the opposite, because it's not fun at all and therefore you have an incentive to skip it and just buy the thing you're after with money. That's the whole idea, that's WF's business model, that's how the game and the studio stay afloat. Why are some primes easier to obtain than their base versions? Because they came out later. Why do you think DE made Ivara, Equinox, and others so difficult tedious to obtain? Because it made the game more fun? No, because they needed money, so they upped the grind to get more people to pay to avoid it. The game has grown since then, the studio is doing better financially, so they don't need to squeeze their players so hard and don't need to put so much of that unfun, pay-to-skip grind into the game. Be thankful for that. Be thankful that they mellow that stuff out over time, that they've not given in to greed and continued to squeeze their players like they had to in the past. The game's better for it.

Really? You honestly think the new forma sink (kuva weapon) and new resources (railjack) "cos reasons" enhance the fun for people? What about the requirem packs etcYou honestly think they've let up on squeezing people for currency on the grind?

Grind as a word implies lack of fun, farming is a part of the game if you want to play free. If you didn't enjoy it you wouldn't do it, simple. EIther greed/gotta-have-it-all is getting to you, or you're enjoying it, but i don't believe a majority of people who play WF are that sadistic 🙂

I'm be tempted to call white knight if the post wasn't so misinformed. Feel free to read the rest of the forum to get an idea of what the community feels about the layers upon layers of RNG

YES! "back in the day" there was less grind, hell we had uproar when weapons were used as crafting components for other weapons but now that's the normal along with other multilayered grinds.

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

1 minute ago, tzadquiel said:

  nice try. but whatever your point is, this would be the result. making it just as hard for others to come. you should wish others well, and possibly to have things in a better way than you, not the other way around, just because you had to go through the grind. 

primes, whether it is prime packs or unvaulted primes, are income source for DE, why would I not want them to get the bill so they can add more things to Warframe? 

I am above all this 'difficult to grind frame/weapon', and it was never a problem to me. I found a quick way of making plat, and what I earn, I use to degrind my game. this develops my real life trading skills too even further.

in other words, why would I respond to a problem that is created personally by a certain player upon themselves? 

Yes, that's the point lol you completely skimmed my post, and my reply, and it shows.

I'm talking about inherent worth to the prime. Aside from mastery why would you get the normal version?

I don't want to make life miserable for other players, what an insane thing to say lol

The reason you don't have an answer to my question is because it doesn't suit you to be proven wrong even when zero mal-intent is there.

So once again, WHY should the primes be easier to obtain than their normal version? Simple question, you've got plenty of answers, just not this one?

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

But getting regular Ivara is super easy though. Spy missions take like 2 minutes if you got a team.

That's not quite true my fellow Tenno.  There is a serious RNG luck factor involved.  It took me a full years to get enough Ivara parts to make a second Ivara.  This is with me already having bought Ivara to use from the start and loving doing spy missions.  

[SordidDreams]

23 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Really? You honestly think the new forma sink (kuva weapon) and new resources (railjack) "cos reasons" enhance the fun for people? What about the requirem packs etcYou honestly think they've let up on squeezing people for currency on the grind?

Grind as a word implies lack of fun, farming is a part of the game if you want to play free. If you didn't enjoy it you wouldn't do it, simple. EIther greed/gotta-have-it-all is getting to you, or you're enjoying it, but i don't believe a majority of people who play WF are that sadistic 🙂

I'm be tempted to call white knight if the post wasn't so misinformed. Feel free to read the rest of the forum to get an idea of what the community feels about the layers upon layers of RNG

YES! "back in the day" there was less grind, hell we had uproar when weapons were used as crafting components for other weapons but now that's the normal along with other multilayered grinds.

It's like you didn't read what I wrote at all, or at the very least utterly failed to understand it.

[DatDarkOne]

19 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

So once again, WHY should the primes be easier to obtain than their normal version? Simple question, you've got plenty of answers, just not this one?

Simple.  The acquisition of Primes has followed a standard pattern that hasn't ever changed.  What has changed is how certain regular frames are acquired.  Some of those frames have an easier acquisition method than the Primes and other have a more annoying method.  

Meaning the only thing that has been constant during all of this is how Primes are acquired.  Please note that I did not say anything about the Crafting of those Primes.  The materials to build them has changed to somewhat reflect the difficulty in getting the normal very in some ways.  Vauban Prime and all the Nitian needed to build him is a prime example of this.  

Edited November 27, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

I have 10 ivara sets and I don't even play spy that often.

Notice in my post that you quoted that I did say and highlighted "There is a serious RNG luck factor involved."  😄  

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Ivara farming is brain dead simple.

• Do spies til you get the parts.  They actually aren't that uncommon, just don't fail a terminal
• OR: farm any random prime frames, sell them, and use the plat to buy Ivara if your luck (or skill) with the above is bad.

If you just want to see people whine on the forums:  Change ingredient list for prime frames - Prime helmet requires a reg helmet bp, Prime chassis a reg. chassis etc .  THEN you will see the salt rain from the skies 😝

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

OR: farm any random prime frames, sell them, and use the plat to buy Ivara if your luck (or skill) with the above is bad.

This has been a method that I've suggested to newer players time and time again.  One in which some older forum members in the past would quickly try to shoot down for some reason.  

[Olphalarepth]

On 2019-11-21 at 2:34 PM, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Anyway, TL;DR primes are too easy to obtain?, respect for them and inherent worth has gone down?

You, me and everyone else know that primed are always farmed the same way and has always been so. I feel your pain and everyone's that had an hard time farming a frame but this is something that will happen with all others including Nidus, Khora, Baruuk and pretty much most of the new generation frames.

What are you advocating for exactly? For ivara to be easier to farm or for Ivara Prime to be a nightmare to get?

Just asking because even if I agree that the farming way need to be revamped, your post is a fully fledged meta complain that will disappear in the void

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

4 hours ago, Olphalarepth said:

You, me and everyone else know that primed are always farmed the same way and has always been so. I feel your pain and everyone's that had an hard time farming a frame but this is something that will happen with all others including Nidus, Khora, Baruuk and pretty much most of the new generation frames.

What are you advocating for exactly? For ivara to be easier to farm or for Ivara Prime to be a nightmare to get?

Just asking because even if I agree that the farming way need to be revamped, your post is a fully fledged meta complain that will disappear in the void

People seem to think I'm advocating some huge increase in grind etc, I'm purely suggesting as you say here more of a "shift in balance" as to how things are acquired making the normal easier and the prime tougher (for newer players at least?) . This is literally nothing to do with my own "bad experience" of farming, been playing since 2013 i'm very much accustomed to the grind hehe, i do long runs with friends on voice and it's really not a chore to me and if I want I can skip my grind with plat anyway.

I mean surely, it makes sense if nothing else to have the normal frame mastered before being "allowed" the prime but what else is there? Hence the discussion, maybe like someone said, you can only get the prime if you get the relics from spy vaults / fissures etc. But then there would be uproar that people couldn't breeze through the spy content so they can have a frame which can breeze through more spy content.

I'm just saying at what point does the "cater to all" start submitting to the "cater to those who earned it". For the sake of this argument the vaults would all be painfully difficult but the drop chances would be that much higher, thus rewarding effort rather than just "overcoming the odds".

And actually the way we farm primes has changed, you used to have to get to the void to unlock it to even begin to do the farming. Now it's hop in, whatever the mission, grab taxis etc, skip to the end and we wonder why player burn out, don't value anything.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by W4RM3CH4N1C

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

5 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

It's like you didn't read what I wrote at all, or at the very least utterly failed to understand it.

You said they are/have reduced the grind, I just wondered from what planet you think recent updates is in anyway lessening the grind, the point was made "revenue streams for DE" etc etc so how come prime access is upward of 3x the price of a full retail game for cosmetics that come out every few months?

Don't kid yourself or anyone else that the grind is lessened I mean really... lessened and we should be grateful? Lets do a very quick off the top of my head recap in the past few updates

Weapon Exilus

Requiem Mods

Level 40 kuva weapons / grind to obtain + forma for mastery

new resources introduced which need farming

Those are HEAVY multilayered RNG/Timegates and this was just in the past few updates.

All I was advocating was a logical shifting of effort/skill/time/whatever. i.e. normal stuff, easier to get, prime comparatively harder. Logically tied together, showing sense of progress etc etc blah blah

[zoffmode]

7 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

People seem to think I'm advocating some huge increase in grind etc, I'm purely suggesting as you say here more of a "shift in balance" as to how things are acquired making the normal easier and the prime tougher (for newer players at least?) . This is literally nothing to do with my own "bad experience" of farming, been playing since 2013 i'm very much accustomed to the grind hehe, i do long runs with friends on voice and it's really not a chore to me and if I want I can skip my grind with plat anyway.

Unfortunately, your suggestion is actually the opposite of helping players (newbies or otherwise). Once a prime version comes out, non-prime is outdated and now only useful as MR fodder. No matter how you change the acquisition method, that fact remains. Making players invest into non-prime then is actively hurting players, especially newbies who will not know better. Putting potatoes, formas, exilus into non-prime version =  all wasted...

So yeah, I'd say you're seriously misguided here. 

[SordidDreams]

26 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

You said they are/have reduced the grind

With respect to the subject of discussion, namely the difference in acquisition difficulty between a lot of regular frames and their prime variants.

27 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

how come prime access is upward of 3x the price of a full retail game for cosmetics that come out every few months?

Because it has to pay for the development of a full game that is constantly being worked on by a large team and given away for free, namely Warframe. According to Steve, PA is "the big piece of cheese" for DE. And it comes out more often than full retail games because not as many people buy it as a full retail game.

28 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Don't kid yourself or anyone else that the grind is lessened I mean really... lessened and we should be grateful? Lets do a very quick off the top of my head recap in the past few updates

Weapon Exilus

Requiem Mods

Level 40 kuva weapons / grind to obtain + forma for mastery

Effectively free from syndicates.

Very quick and easy to get from even unupgraded relics. Can also be bought for a pittance from other players.

Tradeable for pitiful amounts of currency, and I'm talking like 30p per gun. You can invest forma for mastery if you really want to, but it's in no way mandatory and gains you nothing. DE timed the release of these weapons very cleverly at the moment when a new MR becomes available, and in such a way that you can achieve that new MR with just their base XP, without investing any forma into them if you have everything or almost everything. If you're missing some normal weapons such that you need to invest forma into the kuva weapons to get to MR28, you're better off not doing that and leveling your missing normal gear instead. And once you are MR28, there's no point formaing those guns for MR either, since the extra XP is minimal and the next rank won't be available for ages. So really there is zero pressure on you to put forma into them.

35 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Those are HEAVY multilayered RNG/Timegates and this was just in the past few updates.

There is no timegate in anything you mentioned other than kuva siphons/floods, and you only need to run those for requiem relics a few times to get started. Once you're farming liches, you get more than enough from thrall drops.

37 minutes ago, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

All I was advocating was a logical shifting of effort/skill/time/whatever. i.e. normal stuff, easier to get, prime comparatively harder. Logically tied together, showing sense of progress etc etc blah blah

And I was explaining why the current situation is the way it is and how it's beneficial to us. I'd rather have a slightly inconsistent WF than a WF that is even more grindy for the sake of lore consistency.

[Moscatinka]

On 2019-11-27 at 4:48 PM, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Making the primes require the normals to have been mastered or used in the crafting etc just seems like common sense and a logical sense of progression.

Prime parts are Orokin creations, and non-prime variants (of both weapons and warframes) are current day (inferior) attempts to copy the old Orokin tech. As such it would not merely not make sense if the creation or mastering of a prime required the non-prime variant, it would be entirely impossible without a seriously messed up time-travel angle. What you propose might make some sense from a game design angle if you consider primes to be upgraded variants of the regular ones, but it's exactly the reverse, the primes are the originals.

You might say that lore can be changed but this one is so ingrained in the entire story line that there is not a chance in hell of that. Clearly DE didn't want to go that way.

 

[EL_CHAPO17]

Im curious to know weather Ivara Prime will be farmable Via the bounties on orb Vallis /Cetus . Considering that Ash Prime and Vuaban Prime relics are currently available there and Zaphr Prime entering the vault would it be safe to assume ( as a most likely guess ) that Ivara Prime be faramble via Xini,Hydron,Hieracon,Void,Etc ?

 

[ILOHARTA]

On 2019-11-21 at 2:34 PM, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

Just wanted to open up a discussion, seems as there is some hype that it might be Ivara Prime coming next and I just wanted to see what others felt about another prime which essentially will be easier to obtain than it's normal counterpart?

So far it's basically easier to go the prime route on many frames now (nekky, mesa, limbo, atlas etc), which certainly as a clan leader who wants to see people actually play the game. It just makes it difficult to justify getting the normal frames and then appreciate the illustrious prime upgrade.

Aside from mastery which is easy to obtain (and more importantly easy to get to a rank whereby everything is usable) there's not much to justify people not "skipping to the best bit", and why wouldn't you? Part of me wants to suggest things like you have to have mastered the normal frame and use it's built form as a crafting component for the prime.... along with a MUCH larger requirement for orokin cells seeing as those have started dropping like candy for years.

Sure we can argue that getting the relics and then getting the parts etc is all grind, but it can be bypassed so much easier for a simple trading of relics or other parts and either way the route can be more direct and definitely more rewarding in the process.

I dunno, I guess it's me, just personally I felt this devaluing of the gameplay or previous content is beginning to get on my nerves.

I mean don't get me started on the insane grind for the original Brakk all those years ago, but instead of buffing that, we just got the kuva variant as yet more powercreep and sidestepping any effort....

Anyway, TL;DR primes are too easy to obtain?, respect for them and inherent worth has gone down?

I am a 'new player' (around 400hrs in): I have almost all Prime frames, but am yet to get 'standard' Chroma 😄
the fact is: it's incredibly easy to trade relics and/or buy specific parts with plat, and you cannot trade 'standard' frames.
Normally, any other game would make difficult to get the 'best' stuff, while here you can get pretty  much everything from the beginning; standard frames have the only appeal of novelty when they get released, but after that there is no real incentive to get them because they get surpassed in all aspects by the Prime version, and they are just left as mastery fodder.
It's a weird business model I must say, but hey as long as it works for them, I don't feel damaged by having easier access to more powerful stuff (I just find no point in leaving the standard versions as they are, but this is fuel for another topic)

[WinstonPlaneGuy]

On 2019-11-21 at 2:34 PM, W4RM3CH4N1C said:

seems as there is some hype that it might be Ivara Prime coming next

Just wanted to point out, for if you didn't know. It's confirmed. 😛