Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[seprent]

21 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Requires a drawback, but could easily be fixed with buffs to enemies (specifically, certain enemies being able to redirect her firepower).

her circle of i can shoot this gets smaller over time and only with mesa waltz or recasting it does it reset that also resets its damages boosts for continuous shooting

23 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Not experienced enough with this one to call judgement.

up to 10 enemies in its range range will drain energy anything past that does not hits them with a big flame rock does iirc 2500 impact and heat damage then puts a aoe on them that burns 700 heat damage a second like a heat proc and it can spread to enemies that dont have the aoe on them and triggers ember passive of for each enemy on fire in affinity range = 5% power strength its limited by range of the ability that by default i think is 25m and syrngises with immolation doing % more damage based on heat level on top of increasing heat generation for immolation 

29 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It doesn't actually have infinite scaling, since its damage is relatively low. Plus it requires more input than most.

agreed and the only scaled with 25% of the combo counter did dampen him abit but he has a augment that speeds that up a tick for blade storm its only real boon is that it does finisher damage (true damage) AKA slash damage

31 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Generally speaking, it's quite difficult to make a weapon buff OP if the weapons that are getting buffed are balanced. Most weapons still have their drawbacks, even with the considerable buffs redline grants.

Red line is fun do like the kogake prime for the 5% move speed boost with it out and punch people with kinetic plating on but the most OP thing about it is if you max redline to 100% all abilities that call for his kinetic energy are free still takes energy iirc but the big kick is kinetic plating is pretty much 90-100% DR  for in my case 40ish seconds the projectiles are lackluster the interaction with guns is far more interesting

34 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Yes, because invisibility basically involves turning off enemies ability to interact with you, thereby removing all actual gameplay.

Loki and Ivara still have disadvantages while sneaking ivara more then loki tbh

• non silenced weapons break prowl making her visible and give loki but remain invisible they cant see you but can hear and shoot where they heard you
• loki has full movement control while invisible for a duration that at base is 12 seconds ivara can stay invisible for far longer but has limited maneuvers and reduced speed
• loki can take damage in stealth and not be punished ivara has different drain rates 1/s for standing still 3/s while moving 2 per melee hit and 10 for each time she takes damage
• ivara's prowl is channeled loki's invisibility is not

45 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I am still annoyed they un-nerfed this, because the game has way too many hyperinflation issues already.

im not and the way they got the interaction set up rn is pretty decent nekros for whats dead hydroid, khora, atlas for on kill and ivara for what's alive it at least making have a nekros and khora viable in a farming standpoint again 

50 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Unlike most CC frames, Nova doesn't turn them off, she only soft CC's them, still giving them a chance and still maintaining interaction.

Or speed them up and make them alot faster still take alot of damage but a speed nova on a heavy gunner is pretty scary if you're not mentally ready for it because it can drop you fast

[BiancaRoughfin]

26 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Hahaha.

I'm all for replacing this ability with something worth using.

Funny he adds Exalibur because of his 4th but doesnt include Wukong. xD

[Xaero]

11 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Remove the waves, allow all mods (giving it something over its contemporary Exalteds to make up for its shorter range) and give it capacity like everything else. Massively boost damage and the give the waves to heavy attack as something special for it. Or possibly, in exchange for mods if for whatever reason that's not deemed practical, give it and only it innate damage scaling on combo level, like melee 2.0 - potentially allowing it to be one of the most powerful weapons at the cost of limited range. I don't know about you, but an extremely powerful sword sounds like a pretty sweet ability.

EB during Melee 2.0 worked only thanks to two factors: waves and Condition Overload. Waves made it comfortable to use over most regular melee weapons (since you could hit stuff without any problems), CO made the damage scale.

But now most melee weapons are extremely powerful and comfortable to use thanks to reworked combos and follow-through. What can EB actually offer now? How would gaining more than enough damage and losing utility make it worth using over a regular melee weapon? And why should we be limited to a choice between losing access to any melee weapon besides a single sword and having a dead ability?

Here's a pretty simple suggestion about Excalibur's ultimate.

Exalted Blade as a weapon

Exalted Blade loses its waves and receives Garuda Talons treatment. It means that Exalted Blade will only be used when you don't have any melee weapon equipped. It still can be modded separately, gains access to all melee mods, its stance gives additional capacity, it no longer drains energy when equipped (and you switch to it by quick melee or holding weapon switch button). Basically, EB becomes a regular melee weapon, but exclusive to Excal and having its own stance.

Exalted Blade as an ability

Gets a different name, because now it's not just about EB. Activating new Excalibur's ultimate buffs your equipped melee weapon in damage, speed and range department, the buff is determined by power strength and range. It also adds wave projectiles at the end of appropriate combos (maybe allow them for limited types of weapons only: swords, dual swords, machetes, nikanas). Waves will add to combo counter, but only on first hit. Chromatic Blade augment no longer removes IPS from the weapon.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Xaero
typo

[BlackVortex]

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

but it is a problem for people like me who want what's best for the game or for DE allowing the game to live longer.

aha, so you decide what is best for the game?

[Violet_Xe]

8 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

aha, so you decide what is best for the game?

   Not what I said. I said I want what's best for the game, I don't decide what's the best or what the future will hold. That decision will always lie with DE at the end of the day and the most we can do is provide feedback and throw ideas at them. What I believe is best for the game, which is my opinion and not a fact, is a diverse and equally used roster of warframes. I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that DE also wants all of their characters they they've spent years creating to be used.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Violet_Xe

[BlackVortex]

10 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

   Not what I said. I said I want what's best for the game, I don't decide what's the best or what the future will hold. That decision will always lie with DE at the end of the day and the most we can do is provide feedback and throw ideas at them. What I believe is best for the game, which is my opinion and not a fact, is a diverse and equally used roster of warframes. I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that DE also wants all of their characters they they've spent years creating to be used.

so DE knows whats best for the game? I think that on more than one occasion they have proven to be completely clueless about whats best for the game, they just do whatever the biggest crybabies cry about so that they stop crying.

Edited December 12, 2019 by BlackVortex

[Aldain]

Looks like another topic got merged, I think the mods consider this the current "Dumping ground" for things about Saryn.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I CAN play a wide variety of frames. I have most of the primes. (missing like... 5) and most of the regulars (missing Nidus, Grendel, Gauss, Saryn (have prime), and a few others.)... but when it comes down to casual day-to-day play... I just fall back on my comfort frame that makes the game feel good to me... and I don't like changing my setups all the time. I don't WANT to play a huge variety of frames, constantly switching around from mission to mission... to keep their precious stats varied in usage numbers. I play Inaros, Wisp, Oberon, Nekros, Loki, Ivara and Frost. Oberon's mainly for Eidolons (support and solo). Loki/Ivara for spy vaults, depending on my mood for fast or slow runs. Wisp/Frost for Defense/Mobile defense. Nekros for survival/farming. I play Inaros for my everyday casual exerminates, fissures, etc. I have Saryn for SO/ESO.

I like being able to play what's fun for me. It's not at all a problem with balance... because I can play any of those frames just as well, modifying my playstyle around their kits. (I don't have a problem with any of the frames being "overpowered" at this time, just a few that are underpowered... Nyx, Titania, just feel bad to play - weak or useless half-skillsets where only one or two abilities really get used, for instance, even Chroma - and it's good my friend likes using him for Eidolons, because I don't. And this isn't a complete list - not the place for it.)

If they want many different people each specializing in different frames, they need to create more game modes that take advantage of DIFFERENT OBJECTIVES. If "Kill all enemies" is the main objective, the frame that does that best will be flocked to... at no fault of its own - no nerfing needed - they are doing their job. If sneaky spy stuff is the objective, and killing isn't beneficial, frames that can do sneaky spy stuff will dominate that objective! Amazing. No, no need to nerf spy frames because people use them for spy stuff! If "Defend the thing" is the objective, while killing enemies fast does protect the target, having a frame that can block enemies from attacking it or heal it, will be useful for the objective (because all frames can kill enemies... if you can defend the target too, you're better suited to the objective.) ... If there were an objective that relied on enemies being controlled rather than killed (where killing them would give them an advantage, or trigger some environmental condition, or change the mission somehow toward a failure state) then, frames like Saryn would not be given an advantage there. (this is one of the aspects - different objectives - Violet_Xe has been proposing, and I fully agree with.)

At the moment, I wouldn't call Saryn overpowered. I would say she has a skillset that makes her widely useful in generic situations, and the defacto go-to skillset for the objective of killing everything as fast as possible. (This converges to make her best at ESO) Amazing how that works out. I would also say that she does not shut down gameplay of the other 3 players when she's around... because I've never had that happen to me, and it just requires working WITH the Saryn, not against the Saryn, thinking they're stealing "your" kills. Don't give up and LET the Saryn do all the work, join the fight - that's how I do it. And rejoice at success.

 

[Violet_Xe]

6 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

so DE knows whats best for the game? I think that on more than one occasion they have proven to be completely clueless about whats best for the game, they just do whatever the biggest crybabies cry about so that they stop crying.

   I didn't say that either. This game is founded on the exchange of information and feedback between players and developers. It's a relationship and the combined efforts of the community and DE brought warframe to it's current state for better or for worse. Nobody is able to decide what is best for the game because it's impossible to know what's best. But we can guess what's good for the game.
   You didn't respond to the main point of my post or even provide a counter argument to what I said. What you did was try to diss me and diss DE for not knowing what's good for the game's health, trying to make a fool of myself and the developers.

34 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

aha, so you decide what is best for the game?

17 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

so DE knows whats best for the game?

   They are just snarky one shot comments meant to degrade people, they aren't constructive. It just feels like you're upset with the games current state, which I understand, and want to lash out at someone. Even someone who agreed with you on some level. 

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

This being said "Breaking and Nerfing" or "Buffing and Reworking" frames is not the way to go about this specific situation.

   I'm simply saying what I believe would help the game just as you have in the past.

[BlackVortex]

49 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

What I believe is best for the game, which is my opinion and not a fact, is a diverse and equally used roster of warframes.

Can you give me a breakdown why you think this is best for the game? I do not see how "a diverse and equally used roster of warframes" defines my and other players enjoyment of the game.

p.s. in this pursuit DE could also(like they promised years ago) instead of bringing every good frame down to garbage level, bringing the garbage frames up to the level of the most used frames

problem then is that other people will start crying about how it trivializes the game, which it only does on lower levels, once your abilities stop dealing sufficient damage to kill the enemies, the weapons will be the only way to go.

[BlackVortex]

1 minute ago, Violet_Xe said:

47 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

so DE knows whats best for the game?

   They are just snarky one shot comments meant to degrade people, they aren't constructive. It just feels like you're upset with the games current state, which I understand, and want to lash out at someone. Even someone who agreed with you on some level. 

yes, if you remove the sentence that came after it, it does seem like a snarky one shot comment...

[BlackVortex]

4 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

You didn't respond to the main point of my post or even provide a counter argument to what I said. What you did was try to diss me and diss DE for not knowing what's good for the game's health, trying to make a fool of myself and the developers.

which argument was that?

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

5 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

it's only a problem if you make it one, I am perfectly happy with those overpower and overused frames and so are the 80% that play them

if you feel there is a problem and DE agrees, then perhaps they should make the other frames crazy overpowered as well so we can enjoy playing those too

but...

that will never happen, people will always shift to the frames that is either the most fun to play or the most efficient to play with

breaking and nerfing frames is only going to piss off those 80% that play them for those reasons

Still, you have yet to prove that 80% of the game actually enjoys, and plays nukers. What if YOU are actually the 20% and those who dislike Saryn are the 80%?

Indefinitely ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. Look no further than the current state of the game to see and understand that. They ignored Catchmoon for close to a year, until they finally said, "Hey, 50% of the population using this one side arm out of the other hundreds, isn't good, and something needs to be done about that" (because no matter which way you look at it, a hall clearing gun, that almost consistently got headshots, is pretty broken).

Buffing the 40 other frames up to Saryn, Mesa, Volt, or Equinox's level would completely eradicate ANY form of enjoyment in the game. Why? Because if there is no balance, and enemies have zero chance of hitting back, then there is no game.  What game is there to play, if you have no enemies or ANYTHING that can oppose or match your power level? Where's the thrill of the hunt? The feeling of accomplishment? Oh, you killed this thing that damn near everyone can kill in 2 seconds? Good for you! Such power! Such challenge! ....Said no one ever.

Seriously, I've repeated that sentence so many times, in so many different ways, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, Rawbeard said:

if everyone is OP... then everyone is balanced. move along.

best comment ever

[BlackVortex]

1 minute ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Still, you have yet to prove that 80% of the game actually enjoys, and plays nukers. What if YOU are actually the 20% and those who dislike Saryn are the 80%?

since apparently 80% of the game plays only a fraction of the frames, by sheer logic that people play what they enjoy, factual numbers are on my side and you have to be the one having to prove they do this without actually enjoying this

3 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Indefinitely ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. Look no further than the current state of the game to see and understand that. They ignored Catchmoon for close to a year, until they finally said, "Hey, 50% of the population using this one side arm out of the other hundreds, isn't good, and something needs to be done about that" (because no matter which way you look at it, a hall clearing gun, that almost consistently got headshots, is pretty broken).

are you saying DE lacks the insight to see the true potential of the weapons they release and how it will be used? (opposed to many players)
if that were the case, perhaps they should hire some people who can tackles these problems before they arise. (although we all know DE does this to push sales and then later nerfs it when too many people cry)

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, seprent said:

Loki and Ivara still have disadvantages while sneaking ivara more then loki tbh

• non silenced weapons break prowl making her visible and give loki but remain invisible they cant see you but can hear and shoot where they heard you
• loki has full movement control while invisible for a duration that at base is 12 seconds ivara can stay invisible for far longer but has limited maneuvers and reduced speed
• loki can take damage in stealth and not be punished ivara has different drain rates 1/s for standing still 3/s while moving 2 per melee hit and 10 for each time she takes damage
• ivara's prowl is channeled loki's invisibility is not

Thread got merged midway through a long post and I have no will to repeat it, so the most important one IMO.

This isn't accurate. These disadvantages don't really matter when compared to functional invulnerability. And yes, it is that. You can only take damage that has been launched, and since when you are invisibile no enemy will launch damage your way, and usually they're fairly precise, you're only in danger if you get between them and one of your allies. Of course, this becomes a non-issue solo, because there are no allies.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

2 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

since apparently 80% of the game plays only a fraction of the frames, by sheer logic that people play what they enjoy, factual numbers are on my side and you have to be the one having to prove they do this without actually enjoying this

80% is not a factual number, since there is no definite proof. It is an ASSUMPTION, that you made, based of off what little knowledge you have. Just going off of what I've seen on this forum, I could argue that 80% of the game, hates Railjack, wants it to fail, and those who haven't said anything about the issue, don't care or silently agree with me. There is no way for me to prove this since I don't actually have any numbers or data to go off of, but no one can actually disprove it, since they don't have those numbers either. It's a lazy way of defending a baseless assumption.

7 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

are you saying DE lacks the insight to see the true potential of the weapons they release and how it will be used? (opposed to many players)
if that were the case, perhaps they should hire some people who can tackles these problems before they arise. (although we all know DE does this to push sales and then later nerfs it when too many people cry)

Yes, how many times have they "fixed something" that wasn't "working as intended"? One major example of this is Self-Damage Trinity. A fun, and interesting way to play a healer frame, but that was quickly patched out, because that wasn't how they wanted people to play her. I think DE makes a lot of stuff that they believe will be fun, or interesting, but don't actually think of what impact it may have on the game.

[Violet_Xe]

3 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

Can you give me a breakdown why you think this is best for the game? I do not see how "a diverse and equally used roster of warframes" defines my and other players enjoyment of the game.

p.s. in this pursuit DE could also(like they promised years ago) instead of bringing every good frame down to garbage level, bringing the garbage frames up to the level of the most used frames

problem then is that other people will start crying about how it trivializes the game, which it only does on lower levels, once your abilities stop dealing sufficient damage to kill the enemies, the weapons will be the only way to go.

   It brings more interactivity to the game and allows for all players to enjoy more warframes. Some frames feel like they lack a purpose in the game because they're out shadowed by others due to the game's flaws. it CAN bring more enjoyment to players should you decide to explore those characters. You can speak for yourself, but cannot speak for other players saying that it defines their fun. We don't know that.

   They will hopefully be working on that to an extent but not all of the warframes we have now are garbage. The fact is they just don't fit into the meta of the game. The only warframe off the top of my head that needs help is nyx. Others just need missions to favor their kit so they can be useful. Usefulness does not equate to power. i certainly would like to see them brought up but not all of them need to be given reworks for this to happen.

   People will cry, then you go after them for it and tell them that they're wrong. Don't post one comment then leave, discuss and debate over it. Make yourself heard and you can change some people's minds. Or maybe you'll find yourself learning something.

9 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

yes, if you remove the sentence that came after it, it does seem like a snarky one shot comment...

   I had already posted the entire comment once and talked about how DE did something stupid due to DE's feedback so I didn't feel the need to post the entire thing again. I simply needed to point out something specific you said.
   I could also say the same on your end. "it seems very targeted to not include both quotes". DE's comment aside there was no reason for you to say "aha, so you decide what's best for the game" simply because I put my voice out there. What other conclusion would you expect people to reach? 

29 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

which argument was that?

   That's just it there was no argument. i agreed with you, provided my thoughts, and you leapt at my throat. I assume at least you would provide a counter argument to why my ideas were wrong, but you just went "aha, so you decide what's best for the game".

20 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

since apparently 80% of the game plays only a fraction of the frames, by sheer logic that people play what they enjoy, factual numbers are on my side and you have to be the one having to prove they do this without actually enjoying this

   People do not only play what they enjoy. Psychologically people will play whatever is most efficient even if they hate or don't care for it. Depending on the person this may be the case but if FUN was all players were after then there would be 0 complaints about disruption when it launched. Fun value only gets you so far. Again as I said above, you also can speak for yourself but you cannot speak for others.

[BlackVortex]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

80% is not a factual number, since there is no definite proof. It is an ASSUMPTION, that you made, based of off what little knowledge you have.

true, not a factual number, it's a factual estimation close to 80%(it's hard to give the precise % based on a chart without numbers) based on the charts provided by DE and the main argument for people why they think most used frames need to be nerfed because such a large amount of players are narrowing their use of frames to only these few

Edited December 12, 2019 by BlackVortex

[BlackVortex]

13 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

People do not only play what they enjoy. Psychologically people will play whatever is most efficient even if they hate or don't care for it. Depending on the person this may be the case but if FUN was all players were after then there would be 0 complaints about disruption when it launched. Fun value only gets you so far. Again as I said above, you also can speak for yourself but you cannot speak for others.

people hate it even more when all efficient methods are being taken away and are forced to play in an inefficient manner

15 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

Again as I said above, you also can speak for yourself but you cannot speak for others.

15 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

People do not only play what they enjoy.

uh? so I cannot speak for others but you can?

[Violet_Xe]

3 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

people hate it even more when all efficient methods are being taken away and are forced to play in an inefficient manner

   I didn't say anything about taking away efficient methods. I am pro for not nerfing saryn and frames like her because they're fine as is. All of our most used warframes are fine. Sure some could have some minor tweaks to their stats but they don't need to be smacked with a nerf bat. As I said I agreed with you. Why are you so determined in trying to frame it like I'm against you?

 

Just now, BlackVortex said:

uh? so I cannot speak for others but you can?

   I do not speak for others, but I can inform you of psychological facts. People WILL play things they don't like if the circumstances fit. I'm using myself as a way to present facts about people, and you used yourself as a way to present people's opinions. There's a difference.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

2 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

true, not a factual number, it's a factual estimation close to 80%(it's hard to give the precise % based on a chart without numbers) based on the charts provided by DE and the main argument for people why they think most used frames need to be nerfed because such a large amount of players are narrowing their use of frames to only these few

"factual

[ fak-choo-uh l ]

 

SEE SYNONYMS FOR factual ON THESAURUS.COM

---

adjective

of or relating to facts; concerning facts: factual accuracy.

based on or restricted to facts: a factual report."

-

Your statement cannot be factual, since it has no real evidence or facts to back it up. It is a guesstimate. Again, you think so many people are using these frames, based off of an assumption, there is no way to prove or disprove it, until DE releases the proper charts and numbers the show the who's, how's, and why's. You pulled the 80% number out of heaven knows where, to artificially inflate the importance of your argument, and to discredit the opposition by making it seem as if they were nothing more than a very small, vocal minority.

 

And if you were actually reading what people were saying, you would've known that most people aren't arguing for her to be "nerfed" or ruined because she's popular, but because she trivialises a major chunk of gameplay.

 

Going off of your logic, I would be entirely correct in saying 80% of the community hates Railjack, regardless of how asinine that statement is.

[BlackVortex]

2 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

   I didn't say anything about taking away efficient methods. I am pro for not nerfing saryn and frames like her because they're fine as is. All of our most used warframes are fine. Sure some could have some minor tweaks to their stats but they don't need to be smacked with a nerf bat. As I said I agreed with you. Why are you so determined in trying to frame it like I'm against you?

I'm not trying to frame it like you are against me, but there are multiple discussions going on here and sometimes I forget who brought which arguments to the table

5 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

 I do not speak for others, but I can inform you of psychological facts. People WILL play things they don't like if the circumstances fit. I'm using myself as a way to present facts about people, and you used yourself as a way to present people's opinions. There's a difference.

well I'm not a firm believer of the "science" of psychology

[BlackVortex]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

"factual

[ fak-choo-uh l ]

 

SEE SYNONYMS FOR factual ON THESAURUS.COM

---

adjective

of or relating to facts; concerning facts: factual accuracy.

based on or restricted to facts: a factual report."

-

Your statement cannot be factual, since it has no real evidence or facts to back it up. It is a guesstimate. Again, you think so many people are using these frames, based off of an assumption, there is no way to prove or disprove it, until DE releases the proper charts and numbers the show the who's, how's, and why's. You pulled the 80% number out of heaven knows where, to artificially inflate the importance of your argument, and to discredit the opposition by making it seem as if they were nothing more than a very small, vocal minority.

 

And if you were actually reading what people were saying, you would've known that most people aren't arguing for her to be "nerfed" or ruined because she's popular, but because she trivialises a major chunk of gameplay.

 

Going off of your logic, I would be entirely correct in saying 80% of the community hates Railjack, regardless of how asinine that statement is.

well, I didn't just guess while using this chart though:

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

if everyone is OP... then everyone is balanced. move along.

Yes and no. 

This premise works in something like Overwatch, where all of the heroes are ludicrously powerful and thus even each other out. But that works because the heroes exclusively fight other heroes. That means something different in PvE, because in PvE, you have to fight AI enemies.

If every Warframe is outrageously overpowered, then they can be balanced compared to each other, but they might still be way too powerful in comparison to enemies. 

And like. I want to be clear and say that there is nothing wrong with Warframe being easy. But what we have is a step further than easy; we can make ourselves utterly immortal and kill enemies we aren't even aware of. We can effectively remove enemy AI at the press of a button. 

Like the problem we have here isn't just that there's outlier Warframes, it's that we have Warframes that can essentially remove gameplay.