Griefing through resource waste

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

Perhaps they could do it in a way where

Each player uses their own resources.

Doing certain tasks (helping to kill an enemy, helping to put out a fire, etc) with those resource earns that player some type of currency.

You can use that currency to buy special items.

This way you aren't using the hosts resources and you're getting rewarded for using your own in a helpful way.

[kapn655321]

4 minutes ago, Desolator_X said:

Imagine we didn't have ammo drops in missions, but instead X% of loot gets converted into ammo, depending on the total ammo consumption of the whole party.

And imagine if that resource is like Fieldron Samples.
Something I have tens of thousands of, which classify as rare drops.
There truly is every chance you're right about this, or they could have a good drop balance in mind.

I'm guessing it will work like this:
Doing missions will drop an average of 1.6x the resource it should cost.
You'll only be making back say, the Carbides, Pustrels, and other things that drop there.

If you run the cost of what it takes to complete,
you should be able to come up ahead if you're doing it across the planets involved.
Maybe just barely, unless you're really accurate or using resource boosters.
Though whatever we spend in those missions can also be gained through away missions,
in the event that we went a little crazy on the ammo dump.

If it's not something to that effect, I will be surprised for starters,
but would expect there to be some other mission or thing involved that make up the difference.
We'll certainly find out soon.

First month is going to be gravely expensive.. and that's War for ya.
It may be that for us to actually feel it's a war, to be primed to really get into that mindset,
it needs to cost us dearly. ...but it's also a looter shooter.
Judging by the rest of my resources, in 2 months or so, and the invention of inevitable grind destroying metas,
we'll all be able to go trigger happy all day long.

[Desolator_X]

Ooor, people won't spend any of the resources with the idea of progression 1.6 times as fast to get to better gear... since that's exactly what will happen with how the community works.

We only have 10k fieldron samples because it's useless as the BP for it is over costed and DE was basically forced to introduce a better way of obtaining it through the invasions. so I don't really see what the valid reference is.

 

[zurdaro]

Just now, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

More and more evidence that I truly do not want to play this "content" BLURGH

I think it is more evidence that this should've been a part that they needed to adress during the stream. Sadly all we got was "crafting the needed materials in-flight will only cost the materials gathered in-flight."

Clearly not enough to hear something that would matter in only a squad of clan members/friends, leaving out how public matchmaking is affected by it.

[Guest]

A simple solution would be to distribute all surplus resources obtained between the players at the end of the mission. It would discourage trolls from wasting them as it would mean less resources for them as well.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Guest

[RhiawhynZerinth]

1 minute ago, Pr1A said:

A simple solution would be to share all excess resources obtained at the end of the mission. It would discourage trolls from wasting them as it would mean less resources for them as well.

That won't discourage a troll who is doing it to troll, you do realize this right? All that does is encourage them, as that's less resources everyone gets to have. All that does it make it problematic to have teams of randoms on your ships because it's just going to be overall less resource income than if you had a team of friends not spending more than absolutely necessary. It should just cost time to craft and you should have a limited volume of space on board. Resources should be used to do special things, either boosting the power of a missile or making using energy consuming powers do more somehow. Being unable to build needed repair charges for your rep tool is asinine, but being able to build super charges that do it faster/better is not. Basically, stock resources should never cost you anything other than craft time, special munitions/ammo/devices should. Just like air support charges, cyphers, pizzas and similar. We don't have to craft our ammo from the loot we gain on foot, why do we have to do it in space? 

[zurdaro]

Just now, Pr1A said:

A simple solution would be to share all excess resources obtained at the end of the mission. It would discourage trolls from wasting them as it would mean less resources for them as well.

Question is if you refer to resources like the pustrels and such, or more like ammo/energy/etc.

Left-over materials are, from what I understood already planned to be shared to all (aka the usual of how in normal missions all players get more or less same amount of drops, if all is being picked up).

That, for this example, my provided ammo/etc is being then duplicated and shared to the other crew members upon success, if something remains, sounds like a good idea, though it also might become an issue that can be exploited by a squad of four, where I could take along lets say... 100 rockets (because I had some days off I grinded materials in the free flight mode), take my companions into the simplest mission and then all of us come out with 90 rockets spare... turning 100 into 360. *cough* still better than someone burning through my stash of rockets for a firework show *cough*

Or should just let us have a host panel where we check if non-friends/non-clan-members can use ammo/etc, and if not then only if giving a command.

[Kaotyke]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

More and more evidence that I truly do not want to play this "content" BLURGH

Clem, you are getting Gears level of Revenant.

Prepare Uranus, I will start throwing Archwing memes your way.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, RhiawhynZerinth said:

That won't discourage a troll who is doing it to troll, you do realize this right?

Well, it's not any different from the trolls (max range Limbos on defense missions etc.) we already have, which are relatively uncommon.

But yeah, maybe something like selective resource sharing like @zurdaro suggested would be better.

 

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

If they are personal supplies then I wouldn't see it any different from having to build air support charges, team restores or ciphers.

Someone cannot use your restores for you and spend all your Nano Spores though. OP is voicing a concern about a situation akin to another player binding scroll wheel to your personal pads and saying "hahayes xd" in the chat.

[Flameduel]

2 hours ago, yankeedoodledingo said:

 and there will likely be nobody putting points into that skill to fill that role.

Did someone call the fire fighter mechanic?

[Foefaller]

Easiest solution IMO is that everyone gets to keep their resource pickups whether they're used for crafting mid-mission or not. Troll might waste all the gathered resources crafting and/or wasting the ordinance *that mission*, but they wouldn't be diminishing anyone's takeaway at the end of the mission to use for crafting and/or prepping for the next one.

For extra insurance, give everyone the ability to bring 2-3 uses of their own consumables that only they have access to, perhaps with the railjack owner having the option to bring more for everyone's use. Then the troll can only make things harder with that brand of trolling if noone brought anything themselves to begin with.

Also, I'm pretty sure the mission they showed on the dev stream was not meant to be done in a railjack that had only basic parts, no tactical avionics and two of the battle avionics not being properly implemented, and they said afterwards that they are still working on balance, so I think the idea that resources will "have" to be consumed every mission shouldn't be taken as gospel just yet.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Foefaller

[BDMblue]

If these resources are only for Railjack guns and mission items it’s fine. If it’s to build things and missions then no one wants to be the guy building things we all want to just horde.

[Ikusias]

3 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

We all assume the wrost will happen. Maybe we should never venture out of our beds.

Oh wait. Maybe the bed will conspire against me too!

Assume the worst, prepare for it and hope for the best...

[Katinka]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Someone cannot use your restores for you and spend all your Nano Spores though. OP is voicing a concern about a situation akin to another player binding scroll wheel to your personal pads and saying "hahayes xd" in the chat.

As I understand it OP described two different situations, one where resources used by the squad come from the host's supplies and one where each player relies on their own supplies (third paragraph of original post).  I agree that the first case would be a problem and felt no need to comment on it.  The second case is what I think would be more likely and also not as big an issue as the OP made it out to be.  As I was addressing the second situation, where supplies used are from personal stocks, my comment began "If they are personal supplies..."

[Voltage]

7 minutes ago, Katinka said:

As I understand it OP described two different situations, one where resources used by the squad come from the host's supplies and one where each player relies on their own supplies (third paragraph of original post).  I agree that the first case would be a problem and felt no need to comment on it.  The second case is what I think would be more likely and also not as big an issue as the OP made it out to be.  As I was addressing the second situation, where supplies used are from personal stocks, my comment began "If they are personal supplies..."

Even in the second scenario, who wants to be the one expending resources on fire spots while the other team mates are using resources towards killing? Sure you have that 1% who like it like the people who enjoy fishing and mining, but a majority of players want action. Trials were removed for this very reason. Combat is fun. I feel like most can agree on that. The current Railjacked showcase has a complete disconnection with the perspective of a player and their intention in Railjacked. People at TennoCon shared a loud round of applause for amazing space combat, not Janitor Simulator.

I am in my own opinion here, and no matter where the resources come from, upkeep for the Railjacked sparks the same concern to me that SordidDreams has:

4 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I hate when games make you exert effort and spend resources just to maintain status quo. That's exactly the real-life sh*t games are supposed to be an escape from, any dev who puts that into their game is completely missing the point.

Pet DNA integrity, a concept universally hated by the player base. [...]

Edited December 8, 2019 by Voltage

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

The fix is super easy though; DE just needs to make it where upgrading each increases your maximum mission capacity and you start every mission with that many available. Sure, the resource investment would be much higher but players would not have to craft the equipment individually. It's a win-win if DE could not focus on the grind for once.

Edited December 8, 2019 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Katinka]

9 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Even in the second scenario, who wants to be the one expending resources on fire spots while the other team mates are using resources towards killing? Sure you have that 1% who like it like the people who enjoy fishing and mining, but a majority of players want action. Trials were removed for this very reason. Combat is fun. I feel like most can agree on that. The current Railjacked showcase has a complete disconnection with the perspective of a player and their intention in Railjacked. People at TennoCon shared a loud round of applause for amazing space combat, not Janitor Simulator.

I'm fairly optimistic that fire control wont be as big a problem as it was during that devstream.  Mainly because Scott flat out stated that that wasn't the gameplay they were aiming for but also because they said that the mission level was too high for Rebecca's ship.  If the enemies die quicker they wont be damaging you as much and you wont have to put out as many fires.  Same as not having to use as many Health Restores if enemies don't live long enough to put nasty bleed procs on you.  The difference in damage dealt between Rebecca piloting her own ship and Rebecca piloting a Grineer ship was extreme.  I would imagine that that is closer to the time per kill they are aiming for.

[WingR84]

Got to say that i opened some relics on Europa today and got a lot of cubes... made some runs on Seimemi to get the other thing and thought...ok, lets have a look on the dev stream again what i can build witht hat.

You cant craft anything with it, because it is MINING from Fortuna + X or mining from Cetus + X
I mean i dont mind it that much, because i think that i will just archwing out and blast away on those lvl20 units... but who ever came up with "lets make it 15/15 and one of those things always needs to be farmed with mining is a sadistic... that could just as well work at EA.

No, i dont want to do mining for 5 hours... FORGET IT!
I will join other crews and archwing stuff down in the hope that it will become pointless loot like anything else

[spirit_of_76]

5 hours ago, Desolator_X said:

This problem is obviously further increased by the fact that Warframe has never used resources to maintain anything in the game,

they looked more like in mission boosts similar to how many players spam plates for energy and the such nor did they look expensive enough to matter outside of the first week jsut like energy plates.  

[spirit_of_76]

4 hours ago, Desolator_X said:

Ooor, people won't spend any of the resources with the idea of progression 1.6 times as fast to get to better gear... since that's exactly what will happen with how the community works.

We only have 10k fieldron samples because it's useless as the BP for it is over costed and DE was basically forced to introduce a better way of obtaining it through the invasions. so I don't really see what the valid reference is.

 

trust me we will have the best gear before DE can make more better gear.  that is how the game works also the deves all kinda suck at the game so I would not look at preformace on stream as a indicator of what is needed, that and the best way to deal with the capital ships was arc wing to boot so I don't see it as that big of a problem and to be honest I kinda like the mecanic and will be specking in engineering when the mode drops.  

[Firetempest]

19 minutes ago, WingR84 said:

Got to say that i opened some relics on Europa today and got a lot of cubes... made some runs on Seimemi to get the other thing and thought...ok, lets have a look on the dev stream again what i can build witht hat.

You cant craft anything with it, because it is MINING from Fortuna + X or mining from Cetus + X
I mean i dont mind it that much, because i think that i will just archwing out and blast away on those lvl20 units... but who ever came up with "lets make it 15/15 and one of those things always needs to be farmed with mining is a sadistic... that could just as well work at EA.

No, i dont want to do mining for 5 hours... FORGET IT!
I will join other crews and archwing stuff down in the hope that it will become pointless loot like anything else

The resources are not just from mining. They only introduced them to mining so you can earn them before doing space missions. Space enemies and crates will be dropping these same resources all the time.

[Desolator_X]

On 2019-12-08 at 11:39 PM, spirit_of_76 said:

they looked more like in mission boosts similar to how many players spam plates for energy and the such nor did they look expensive enough to matter outside of the first week jsut like energy plates.  

Except that they power your railjack abilities and weapons. That's more like you have to build powercells out of crafting mats or you can't use your warframe abilities or your weapons if you don't build enough spare ammo mags for them. The very Idea that you'd need to do that for a warframe is already dumb, even if we have three frames that can double drops. not imagine you start the game at MR 0 and run out of ammo halfway through a mission because you didn't have enough mats to build ammo / powercells: that's exactly what Railjack is, except that your teammates can also use your powercells and ammo. Sounds bad right?

[spirit_of_76]

3 hours ago, Desolator_X said:

Except that they power your railjack abilities and weapons. That's more like you have to build powercells out of crafting mats or you can't use your warframe abilities or your weapons if you don't build enough spare ammo mags for them. The very Idea that you'd need to do that for a warframe is already dumb, even if we have three frames that can double drops. not imagine you start the game at MR 0 and run out of ammo halfway through a mission because you didn't have enough mats to build ammo / powercells: that's exactly what Railjack is, except that your teammates can also use your powercells and ammo. Sounds bad right?

you don't need to build ammo you build heavy ammo for things like your Heavy cannon and torpedo tube arc wing is not afected nor are the main guns so as shown by the dev streem you can still kill ships through infiltration and it looked like it was the best way to do it becasue it was fast, did not mean that the rail jack was forced to maintain a straight course, draw fire from the rail jack but increasing the number of targets... again it is more akin to Heavy Ammo plate and energy plates they are far from needed but are quite nice to have.  

[844448]

On 2019-12-09 at 12:38 AM, Desolator_X said:

Still doesn't solve the fact that it'll slow peoples progression and as such they'll not use resources for anything. The whole idea is so deeply flawed in a game like Warframe that it just needs to go. People don't even want to spend credits on kavat maintenance, the most universal of resources to get... why the hell would you add resource consumption to a part of the game that's just new and people want to progress through?

If it uses your materials, I actually don't really mind when I have 4 materials at 1m+ so there's a reason to make those "nothing to do" players stay