DE needs to rework enemy levels, aka stop cheating

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

It's gotten to the point where I don't even trust enemy levels anymore.

Kuva mission enemies do more damage and tank more hits than normal units.

Orb Vallis corpus do ridiculous amounts of damage that level 40-50s definitely shouldn't be doing, not to mention their stagger rate and movement speeds are insane.

Jupiter enemies are the same as above too. 

And railjack boarding parties are especially bad in this regard.

Now, I'm not against the difficulty no, but as a player I want to be able to make an informed decision whenever I decide to enter into a new mission type. Hiding more damage stats and health behind lower enemy levels isn't just dishonest towards all players, but it's downright confusing to newer players who can't figure the game now, because it makes no sense.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Yeah, a more universal enemy system would be desirable. I'm not fond of the Railjack enemy tankiness. It's not hard and I know why they are tanky, but it still feels lacking. Bullet sponges aren't the answer to everything. AI should be vastly improved, and enemy variants should not only have a bit of extra tankiness, but added move sets.

And honestly I'd limit their scaling up as well as ours. I'd say it could stay due to long runs being a thing but it seems like DE is trying to stray away from that, so might as well revamp the entire enemy system and have it updated to "Warframe today".

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Sure they need to. Will they? They havent for years.

What I also think absolutely needs to be done is decouple enemy damage scaling from health.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

kuva bombard is not the same as normal bombard, like how a kuva karak is not the same as a karak, they r literally a different enemy, so they have diffrent BASE stats that are then modded by thier level, its not fake number.... thats not how math works

and if ur complaining the kuva mobs that i 2 shot are tooo tanky, then idk what ur issue is

railjack on the other hand....

Edited January 15, 2020 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[Operativ]

In my opinion they should go the classic level 1-30 way, like most of the equipment.

Perhaps up to 40 for those fancy snowflakes, such as Sortie opponents or something that's supposed to be extremely dangerous.

Inflating numbers sky-high is just tiresome on the eyes and loses the purpose of each individual number in the long-term. As a real example, even WoW is dropping its max character level back to 60 with the new expansion.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

1 hour ago, Countess_Hapmuhr said:

Kuva mission enemies do more damage and tank more hits than normal units.

As they should, they are the elite of the Grineer, they've proven themselves through combat. They get better gear over regular Grineer.

[Corvette590]

Railjack enemies are way to tanky- so you either go one of two ways. Option 1: melee them to death. Option 2: One shot them. As far as Kuva lancers go, they do more damage because they are the elite version of the grineer. Also, what guns do y'all use to one shot kosma lancers? My corrosive/blast corinth does not kill them like it should, and if anyone has a good War build please link an image of it.

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, Countess_Hapmuhr said:

Orb Vallis corpus do ridiculous amounts of damage that level 40-50s definitely shouldn't be doing, not to mention their stagger rate and movement speeds are insane.

The community spoke, and DE listened. DE tried to fix it but people blew up social media to revert it.

[Corvette590]

I know they were re-buffed, but I thought they were rebuffed to do a little less damage versus the units at the initial Fortuna roll out?

[Tyreaus]

I think some people may be misunderstanding that the OP's main point is about the level tags being misleading. I.e., that "level 50", despite being the same tag, doesn't mean the same thing in Orb Valis and on Pluto. Not that level 50 in Orb Valis should be equivalent to level 50 on Pluto.

[Corvette590]

I get the OP's point@Tyreaus. It should be more related how a standard level 50 corpus unit deals less damage than a level 50 orb vallis unit. Open world units always deal more damage(and have perfect aim).

Edited January 15, 2020 by Corvette590
Added more info

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, Corvette590 said:

I get the OP's point@Tyreaus. It should be more related how a standard level 50 corpus unit deals less damage than a level 50 orb vallis unit. Open world units always deal more damage(and have perfect aim).

As plenty have pointed out, its a wh043-biscuit level of mis information. I would honestly say VARIANT enemies need to get bonus levels attached to them and have lower base stats so they are about relatively the same or slightly higher then regular enemies, just the extra mechanics they have act as `indirect DPS` upgrade for them so you know the difference when you compare a Kuva Lancer with a Elite Lancer. But if both had the same level, the Kuva Lancer would actually stat-wise be lower because it would have other mechanics that gives it that extra sheen of level padding.

Very least Destiny series and similar games kept it simple. Instead of worrying what level the enemies are, your just worried if your light level is high enough to be able to make an impact on them. With usually in the case of Borderlands series, If you manage to strike down a enemy way higher level then you, then you would get boosted exp gains. Sadly to expect D.E. to forsake the enemy scaling and be a bit more creative on enemies like different named enemies actually DO stuff differently then just run at you and shoot/attempt-to-melee you or so.

Anyway, i still stand by my statement that additional enemy mechanics need to add a artifical, non-stat boosting, level bonus to enemies to help make it easier to identify much more op enemies, just like how Eximuses tend CHAD about 10 to 20 extra levels whenever they show up, compared to regular enemies.

[(PSN)A-0Titan]

I've always known warframe to be about hack n slashing brain dead enemies I think you're asking for too much lol the enemies so brain dead they don't know their own level

[peterc3]

11 hours ago, Corvette590 said:

I know they were re-buffed, but I thought they were rebuffed to do a little less damage versus the units at the initial Fortuna roll out?

They were very ridiculous at launch, where the levels indicated were completely out of line with anything else in the game at the same level. DE tried to bring it back into line but the players threw a fit and they were returned to something very close to what the release state was.

The OP has a problem with the player base, not DE.

[Benour]

6 hours ago, peterc3 said:

They were very ridiculous at launch, where the levels indicated were completely out of line with anything else in the game at the same level. DE tried to bring it back into line but the players threw a fit and they were returned to something very close to what the release state was.

The OP has a problem with the player base, not DE.

OP means when some node says lvl 40-50 it doesnt correspond with actual "power" of such mobs. So lvl 50 corpus in Orb Valis is in reality 3x stroger than "normal" corpus. Same for railjack enemies they are MUCH stronger than common lvl 80 grineer (which is very true).

But nice try to whiteknight DE bruh.

[Steel_Rook]

6 hours ago, peterc3 said:

The OP has a problem with the player base, not DE.

No, not even remotely. Did nobody actually bother to read the OP all the way through? The OP has a problem with enemy levels being meaningless because different subfactions of the same major faction scale differently to a significant degree. Terra Corpus units have stats consistent with regular Corpus units 20-40 levels higher and Railjack Grineer (forget their designation) are substantially tankier any other kind of Grineer. The OP's criticism is that looking at an enemy's level doesn't actually tell you their level. It's just a suggestion. A level enemy might actually fight like a level 80 enemy, or it might fight like al level 100/120/160 enemy if they have hidden modifiers.

I'm not necessarily opposed to Orb Vallis providing tough end game content, but if enemies are going to scale to level 120, then SAY THAT near their name at the start of the mission. Inform me what level the enemies are. Don't hide their true level and hope I won't notice they're MASSIVELY tougher than most anything else at their displayed level. By all means - scale enemies as high as you want, but let players know what level those enemies actually are.

[ShortCat]

I wonder why nobody is talking about status resistance those Kosma units have. Slash procs from my Dread are reduced from 30k to 8k, so something around 70% status resistance. And that in addition to totally bloated HP values.

[-TSA-warramssie]

...

Kuva Guardian, one of the thougher Grineer starmap enemies , EHP at lvl 120 : 723.000 

Gokstadt Officer, one of the new Railjack opponent , EHP at lvl 120 : 32.350.000

 

 ===> TRANSPARENCY ... through and true

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

12 hours ago, peterc3 said:

They were very ridiculous at launch, where the levels indicated were completely out of line with anything else in the game at the same level. DE tried to bring it back into line but the players threw a fit and they were returned to something very close to what the release state was.

The OP has a problem with the player base, not DE.

Or if scaling and Ai was done right by DE nobody would complain still the devs fault 

[Corvette590]

Yeah, scaling is ******* up in this game.

[Monolake]

DE don't understand the importance of consistency and communicating to the player (so players could make an informed decision - which is fundamental for games) . They just don't. Same issue as with Damage 2.0 armor types and it was discussed to death back in 2013-2014, DE didn't learn.  They believe obscuring everything and confusing players and making them read wiki all the time is good design.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Monolake

[Jitsuryoku]

Ahah! So it wasn't just my imagination. Those enemies really were tougher. I was wondering WTF happened to my weapons when I first switched from a solid 1 shotting weapon to a less powerful (but still powerful) one. Thought I messed up my build or something.

I just mashed my melee button harder, started hitting harder and it worked out!

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

No, not even remotely. Did nobody actually bother to read the OP all the way through? The OP has a problem with enemy levels being meaningless because different subfactions of the same major faction scale differently to a significant degree. Terra Corpus units have stats consistent with regular Corpus units 20-40 levels higher and Railjack Grineer (forget their designation) are substantially tankier any other kind of Grineer. The OP's criticism is that looking at an enemy's level doesn't actually tell you their level. It's just a suggestion. A level enemy might actually fight like a level 80 enemy, or it might fight like al level 100/120/160 enemy if they have hidden modifiers.

I'm not necessarily opposed to Orb Vallis providing tough end game content, but if enemies are going to scale to level 120, then SAY THAT near their name at the start of the mission. Inform me what level the enemies are. Don't hide their true level and hope I won't notice they're MASSIVELY tougher than most anything else at their displayed level. By all means - scale enemies as high as you want, but let players know what level those enemies actually are.

Gold star for you for getting it. 

Todays sortie is a perfect example of me getting hoodwinked by assuming it would be fair. Sortie rescue is usually a decent challenge with Wisp, gotta keep the buffs up, avoid corpus and get the hostage out in one piece. Except of course, today's sortie was on Jupiter which is a DE cheat area. So my wisp got instagibbed on the third room. 

Redo the same mission with a maxed out Chroma and it's not a problem, because not even those corpus can get through his armor. Now, if I'd known this in advance, I wouldn't have wasted a few minutes trying against all odds to get through that mission and then failed. It's just annoying having to reset because you were misled about what kind of mission you were going for. 

So yeah, I have no problems with difficulty, crank up those levels already DE. But don't lie to me, that makes me very angry very fast.

[peterc3]

12 hours ago, Benour said:

OP means when some node says lvl 40-50 it doesnt correspond with actual "power" of such mobs.

And then DE tried to bring the enemies into line at their stated level. The players balked. Mentioning that without the surrounding reasons why the enemies are so out of line with their stated levels is not going to do anything.

[ciTiger]

Indeed the broken balance shows in several ways, enemy level is just one. Either you know the mission difficulty before hand or ...