Warframe Revised: Arcane Changes Megathread

[Skaleek]

Arcane grace not triggering at 2hp when taking damage via quick thinking should be fixed.

[Grey_Fenn]

6 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

All arcanes have the same icon.  The only way to see which hit is to wait until the name scrolls and you can read which one.

Which is my point:  they need distinguishing icons.

[dbwu]

2020/3/3 AM1点39分 , [DE]Bear 说:

- Adjusting the power of Arcanes at Rank 5 to generally behave as if you had 1.5 equipped, list as follows:

 

So a max level Energize used to grant you 100 energy of 40% chance,

now it's 150 energy of 60% chance, a total 150% higher.

Yet a 15s cooldown was added for no reason, PLUS you can no longer equip two at the same time,

I consider it's a nerf to energize, and a VERY BIG one.

 

2020/3/3 AM1点39分 , [DE]Bear 说:

you can now choose between 2 different Arcanes that behave (generally) at 1.5x efficacy than before. 

If DE wants to keep the cooldown, they should increase the energy it provides, I'd say at least increase to 200 or 250, if the cooldown is still 15s.

If DE wants to keep the amount of energy that energize provide, they should reduce the cooldown, I think 5~8s would be better,

because everyone has Vacuum or Fetch, you can't expect players to DODGE energy orbs before the goddamn long cooldown finish,

I mean, the hole change should've made Arcanes better, or at least Not Worse than before, but that's what it is now.

I have no idea why a Lv.5 Energize is worse than a pre-patch Lv.3 Energize,

Please reconsider your decisions, DE.

 

[rstripn]

7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Help me here, I'm hoping that we can separate some things.  I'm also hoping that instead of arguing over the simpler answers of praise and anger we can strip them away, and explain their underlying issues so we can address them.

3) Insulting DE or its employees

This always baffles me.  What is an insult?  If I say your changes are stupid, did I call you stupid?  Absolutely not.  Somehow it seems like this is conflated as an insult to DE, and it's surprising. Putting this into the context of the arcane feedback within this thread, the changes to arcanes are in a variety of ways stupid.  This is based off of a fundamental issue with the stated goals, and the underlying goals of the game. 

[...]

4) Insulting people that they disagree with.

This one kills me too.  I live in a free country, and most people reading this forum in english may be the same.  Cite to me exactly where I am given the right to be comfortable, and not have my ideas challenged.  Additionally, cite where somebody can question my ideas and has to couch the terminology in a way as to make me feel better.  I'm going to call myself an @$$, so that we can get outside of that and nobody else has to. 

[...]

 

I'm not arguing "rights" in a "free country" here, I'm just talking about being civil and respectful.

Calling changes "stupid" may not be an insult to DE but it's also not particularly useful feedback. Very small and recent examples of targeted insults are "evil" and "uncaring".

Everybody should help others feel comfortable when discussing opinions. You don't have to try to make the other person feel better but you should try to not make the other person feel worse. Separate the person and their argument.

 

P.S. Unless I spectacularly disagree with something I will not be commenting further on this aspect of providing feedback.

If you think making others upset is a legitimate tactic in discussion then I think you're a bad influence and should go away.

If you're mindful of how how you make others feel then I agree your posts are meaningful even if I disagree with your execution.

Edited March 7, 2020 by rstripn

[PhilfyRatBagz]

The main issue IMHO is how this Arcane Nerf was done, Hidden behind the rank 5 idea, On the eve on 7 year anniversary, the facts and figures hidden from players before the update, (and still not in description) and still not clear what the real details are without hrs of testing.

And most of all, the fact you never even tried to make the 75% of arcanes that are not used due to being useless or not worthy in the 1st place made better.

Very disrespectful and more like something EA and other AAA developers would do.

These changes were made by an accountant, not a game developer. You just burnt a lot of trust I and others had left in you as a game developer.

 

"Cool downs and can't re-trigger" is only going to slow game play and make players worry more about proc management then the game objective. Thats bad design.

If your going to keep them, then we require balance across all.

Cool downs: 8 seconds for all arcane with a cool down. This brings balance and a flat timing that players can adjust too.

Can't re-trigger while active:  should be changed to "not before 50% of duration". This still gives players a good chance to re-apply the proc while active, but not a guarantee.

This is a much better change than what you have done, it is fair and not a total nerf.

 

The change to both Barrier and Ageis to proc from All Damage to Shield Damage only is bad. Once your shields are gone, these arcanes become useless.

Please change this back to all damage.

 

I'm doing a list of suggested changes to all arcanes, but it need a lot of testing, so I will post it later

 

 

[(PSN)hellahym]

Well, I don't know if someone has already bring this to the discution, but these  are my 2 cents:

All this "we want to encourage a variety instead of duplication" thing may be true, but may be some others reasons behind.

If the goal is to end with the double stacking - wich I won't argue about it - is fine, just buff the current arcane's stats/values.
DE can tweak the arcane's rules, add cooldowns, buff and nerf those arcanes they consider unbalanced. That's not the main problem here.

The problem is the lack of honesty.

To take the arcane's rank to 5, wich all we all know means that we now need to get 21 arcanes of each type, does not benefit in any way the players. Is just more grinding/farming.

So, why DE go with this? Well, is just a monetary move.

More grinding means more players getting annoyed, willing to pay with platinum to save time.

New players will have it way more hard to maximize their arcanes, old players will have to grind more... the platinum will flow more.

Im not saying that DE will be doubling their benefits, but for companies every little penny counts.

So the thing is, please DE don't go full "this is for the players" level of bullS#&$. We got that a lot from other companies, that's why we learn to respect you in the past. Because you're different.

You want money? Is ok, I can deal with it. We all need it too.

But do not insult my intelligence with excuses.

If I am wrong, please explain me how more grinding -instead of just directly buff the stats- benefits us.

Also, pardon for my inglish, is not my main lenguage.

Edit: the fact that the next event will works as a "grab any arcane you want" does not counter all this: the event time is LIMITED.  After that, good luck if you missed it.

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)hellahym

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

10 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Help me here, I'm hoping that we can separate some things.  I'm also hoping that instead of arguing over the simpler answers of praise and anger we can strip them away, and explain their underlying issues so we can address them.

 

3) Insulting DE or its employees

This always baffles me.  What is an insult?  If I say your changes are stupid, did I call you stupid?  Absolutely not.  Somehow it seems like this is conflated as an insult to DE, and it's surprising. Putting this into the context of the arcane feedback within this thread, the changes to arcanes are in a variety of ways stupid.  This is based off of a fundamental issue with the stated goals, and the underlying goals of the game.  Let's list what I'm focused on:

Warframe is a free to play game, an the stuff you pay for is either convenience or cosmetic. (interviews over the last 7+ years as a source)

Rebalancing the arcanes to cost more and deliver more was promised.  (these updates, and the developer stream stating 150% power at 210% cost)

Modifying the arcane effects is being done to change the meta. (the same developer stream and this forum)

They've set themselves up for failure by promising things which by definition cannot exist.  If we're to take Guardian it'd be 20%-20% chance to provide 600-900 armor for 20-30 seconds on damage.  They initially promised the decreased chance, and the 150% increase as duration.  They delivered the decreased chance, and the armor value became 150%.  The fun bit is that the rank 3 bonus was nerfed such that you lost 50% of the chance to get the bonus at tier 3 for this to happen.  That's right, tier 3 is now 10% chance to get 600 armor for 20 seconds.  This is clearly a change focusing on a numerical analysis that said too many people used Guardian.

If DE had set themselves up for success they'd have rolled this out in segments.  What they did was inherently stupid, and that's a statement of fact not an insult.  Even great people are guilty of stupidity.  You want an example, Einstein is on record as not believing quantum physics because, paraphrasing, the universe playing dice with things did not make sense.  Well, we've proven that incorrect, despite Einstein's theory of general relativity still standing strong.

If we wanted this rolled out with less static, the process would have been:

        1) We're disabling your ability to use multiple arcanes.  Let's give people some time to adjust, and get used to certain effects being weaker.  (changes to mechanics)

        2) We're introducing some balancing changes.  The arcanes you already have are going to work a bit differently.  (minor buffs and nerfs, easy to swallow)

        3) Now that you've gotten used to the new meta, we're introducing tiers 4 and 5 which will require new grind.  Your arcanes are not changing, but the higher tiers will allow you access to a greater effect.  (we're giving you more power, at a grind cost)

       4) Now that you've gotten used to everything, we're going to try and normalize some of the arcanes which don't see as much usage.  (shift the meta built by shield gating)

There's this thing in statistics where if you have multiple degrees of input, and you alter all of them at the same time, you cannot determine which factor is a positive or negative.  This leads to a confidence level which can be expressed, but not a direct correlation.  Now, throw in all the other changes.  As others have stated, this game is too complex to be bug free.  Well, yes.  The issue is when you don't do things in any order you're inviting issues where changes interacting introduce issues.  Case in point, all of the odd behaviors we've seen with arcane effects, stealth kill bonuses, and numerous other things from this update.  My favorite is having a fully upgraded Kuva Nukor, focused on radiation+heat+corrosive.  I went against a level 50 grineer eximus, and unloaded an entire clip into it with everything doing 0 damage.  It waved its hands in the air from the heat proc, but took no damage.  Yeah, maybe things need a better look.

Maybe, just maybe, DE is human and makes stupid decisions in the pursuit of what they believe to be better.  It's almost like maybe Bethesda meant to deliver a PvP Fallout game which would be updated, and only later figured out that the players didn't want PvP and releasing a mess was not acceptable even if they planned to fix things eventually.  It's almost like us stating somebody did a stupid isn't telling them that they are bad people, but that they need to get their act together so we can have fun and justify giving them money because things are worth paying for.

 

 

4) Insulting people that they disagree with.

This one kills me too.  I live in a free country, and most people reading this forum in english may be the same.  Cite to me exactly where I am given the right to be comfortable, and not have my ideas challenged.  Additionally, cite where somebody can question my ideas and has to couch the terminology in a way as to make me feel better.  I'm going to call myself an @$$, so that we can get outside of that and nobody else has to.  Now that is established, let me be real here:

DE doesn't seem to play the game, but make decisions based on analytics and the nebulous goal of making most things viable.  

Anger about something bad is often expressed without hours of understanding to explain it.  Read: TL; DR is a thing and people hate reading walls of text (yes, I know).

DE is releasing a product which is free to play, they conversely expect people to pay them because of their efforts and the fact they are human.

 

Coming from this, the business case for free to play is that you release a base game, and the free players generate content for the paying players.  Whether this is enemies to fight in PvP or fight with in PvE, diminishing grind by allowing purchase of in-game drops for real world currency, or adding physical content like skins.  I've cited these specifically, because Warframe does them all.

What I will focus on in this thread is the diminishing grind, related to arcanes.  If you figure out the drop rate for arcanes, it's 5% for the rare ones.  If you required 10 to level up an arcane, the math for drops becomes pretty simple.  Figure out what percentage of the population should get a drop, figure out how many of those drops are needed, figure out the math, and you can come to the conclusion of how much grind can be skipped by paying and how much value DE puts forward for the people grinding.  

Skipping the math, the simple bit is they made the grind 210% longer simply on the front of the synthesis.  They offered 150% more power under ideal situations.  This doesn't tell you the full story though, the devaluation of player time is much deeper.  How statistics works is that 100% certaintly of a thing is only possible with infinite runs.  The chance of a 50% drop not being rewarded after 10 tries is 0.5^10 = 0.000977 or about 0.1%.  1 in 1000 people will not get a 50% drop after 10 runs.

People don't do that math.  They simply experience a bad run of luck, and rage because their inductive logic, 1 in 2 chance means I'l win after 2 tries for sure, does not work.  Let's look at how arcanes have shaken out.  Let's start by assuming 50% of the population needs to get the arcanes to be a reasonable "most" people can earn them situation.  That means that 0.50 = (percentage drop required to get one arcane)^arcanes required = x^10 or in the new system x^21.  What is the population required to have earned the drop in each case?  That's fun:

10 arcanes = 93.3%           21  arcanes = 96.7%

So, how many runs are required for these percentages?  chance = 1-0.95^runs, .  This then multiplies by the required number of arcanes, to get the amount of runs required for 50% of the population to have a fully ranked arcane.

10 arcanes = 53 runs           21  arcanes = 67 runs

So, the totals become:

10 arcanes = 530 runs           21  arcanes = 1407 runs

I'm going to be frank here, DE has shown the math that they are increasing the amount of required arcanes by 110%, for a total cost to the community which is actually 210%.  They have not done any of the underlying math, but the reason people should be angry is that for the same amount of the community to have a fully ranked arcane you now require nearly triple the amount of runs.  Articulating that, is difficult, because 1 in 2.097*10^27 people will get the full arcane in exactly 21 runs.  That's silly, but more reasonably somebody out there will run about 100 runs, and they will have received a full rare arcane.  Somebody else can literally run this 100 times and never get an arcane.  Thank you statics.

So let's be real.  I don't want to say DE is evil or stupid, but I'm happy to call them as doing a disservice to their customers.  Buried deep inside their math is a kernel of insult to the player base.  Whether they understand that or not is up for debate.  What I can tell you is that if people were to understand that the RNG is stretching out play time like this, and that the amount of money you could earn at a minimum wage job working only a fraction of this time would buy you everything in the game several time over, is directly insulting to players.

Our response back is to disrespect them for their disrespect of our time.  It's not constructive, but it's pretty reasonable.  The people defending DE often seem to not value their time, or value this as fun only and therefore their time is not an investment.  If you view the game as an equation of putting in $80 I got from working 12 hours, versus spending literal thousands grinding, the source of anger with the arcanes should be crystal clear.

 

 

 

In short, people are responding to objectively an insulting change to the valuation of player time.  Bad grinds are becoming far worse, and the corresponding nerf to some of these minor buffs has people angry.  Doing all of this math on arcanes is often not what people want, because the direct 5% or trigger cooldown times is much easier to focus on.  The problem is that underlying all of this is the mechanics DE chose insulting players.  Whether you do the math, or simply experience it without understanding, the message is clear.  I just hope DE didn't do this on purpose, and will roll back an insulting change.  

Of course, I watch people argue about intentions and simply call out the developer because maybe this math is beyond them.  Maybe, they just don't like change.  Despite these potential explanations, the message communicated by the change is mathematically clear, "DE has devalued player time in the same non-linear scales as the rewards systems they implement to increase player time."  You can try and say this is unintended, but if it is DE didn't do the basic math required to design the system.  

If they want to fix that bit of communication I'd suggest they fix their math, apologize for what was unintended consequences, and claim this as an experiment they needed more time with.  Barring that, they insulted our value and people are replying with the same anger right back.  It's not rocket science, and if they don't believe it's warranted I'd suggest they spend the next several; months grinding to get the arcanes.  If they're part of the normal distribution someone there will need in excess of three thousand runs.  3 per night, 2 nights per day, that's 500 days straight of grinding.  Do you think 2 years of your life is an acceptable cost for an arcane..

 

 

Oh, but Scarlet Spear will allow you to buy them.  Fine.  What about after?  What about people coming in new after this event?  Will we always have a means of buying what we want?  Not answering....OK.  I hear a "stay calm."  What I see is the captain spinning the wheel at random and the boat swerving around in the water.  Maybe let's explain what the plan is, rather than asking us to believe you after demonstrating that your communication is....less than stellar.

 

 

Math time for the TL; DR crowd.

RNG cannot drop something assured.  The only assurance of any drop with probability less than 100% is if you run an infinite number of runs.

The chances of getting a 5% drop are actually 5%, 9.75%, 14.625%, 18.5%, etc...  At 100 runs the chance is only 99.4% so 6 people in 1000 don't get it after 100 runs.

This is how you can stretch content to a nutty level with an RNG drop system.  This is why DE does it.  This is also why doubling the requirement of an RNG drop item doesn't arithmetically double the invested time.  It increases significantly more, and this is where us humans need to break out a calculator and understand rather than accept inductive reason.

[(PSN)Dredgen_Vor]

10 pages. Has the most replies of all megathread feedback forums since Mainline update and no responses. Misery surely loves our company fellow Tenno.

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)Dredgen_Vor

[Dracus_Dakkrius]

I recall that Steve said in the Devstream that Arcanes are supposed to be something that "turns the tide of battle." But Arcanes never really felt like they did that for me. I'm fine with having cooldowns or stricter activation conditions, but the random chance activation conditions feel arbitrary. e.g. If Arcane Barrier/Guardian activated when Shields were depleted, and if Arcane Grace activated when on low health, rather than on a random chance upon being hit, then I would appreciate these Arcanes a lot more.

[Robot_piloting_a_Mech]

Two thoughts:

1.  If you don't want to increase the grind but do want to increase the maximum rank, perhaps make the rank up costs lower.  If you need to add 1 to reach rank 1 and add 2 to reach rank 2, etc., then the total cost would be 16 instead of 21 - about 1.5 times the number originally needed to max rank.

2.  For consistency either allow or don't allow refreshing the duration of arcanes across the board.  Or list the cooldowns for clarity.

Thank you for your hard work, and have a nice day!

[Tokomi_]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)hellahym said:

All this "we want to encourage a variety instead of duplication" thing may be true, but may be some others reasons behind.

The problem is the lack of honesty.

 

I clipped your post, but you paraphrased it nicely in any case.

They (DE) did not encourage anything. That verbiage is very disingenuous at best. And at worst, as you yourself put it, plainly dishonest. Because the option for variety was already built into the system.

Those players (loyal veterans it seems) wanted power not variety. Now, it *seems* they have nothing they originally wanted.

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Dredgen_Vor said:

10 pages. Has the most replies of all megathread feedback forums since Mainline update and no responses. Misery surely loves our company fellow Tenno.

Just out of curiosity, do you think they are working on a fix, re-vamp, or retraction, or a very well worded politically correct explanation?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Tokomi_

[Bacl]

53 minutes ago, Tokomi_ said:

I clipped your post, but you paraphrased it nicely in any case.

They (DE) did not encourage anything. That verbiage is very disingenuous at best. And at worst, as you yourself put it, plainly dishonest. Because the option for variety was already built into the system.

Those players (loyal veterans it seems) wanted power not variety. Now, it *seems* they have nothing they originally wanted.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you think they are working on a fix, re-vamp, or retraction, or a very well worded politically correct explanation?

None of the above, i am expecting a very poorly worded explanation on the why they wont fix  or retract this while try to convince us that a revamp is not necessary because it is too soon.

 

Or something similar anyways unless they got an epiphany reading this thread

[Arsonistic]

Arcane Aegis, while seemingly powerful in effect, has a rather pathetic 3% chance of triggering. Please make this at least double (6%). Nerf the effect if you have to, I just want it to be more consistent.

[master_of_destiny]

5 hours ago, rstripn said:

I'm not arguing "rights" in a "free country" here, I'm just talking about being civil and respectful.

Calling changes "stupid" may not be an insult to DE but it's also not particularly useful feedback. Very small and recent examples of targeted insults are "evil" and "uncaring".

Everybody should help others feel comfortable when discussing opinions. You don't have to try to make the other person feel better but you should try to not make the other person feel worse. Separate the person and their argument.

 

P.S. Unless I spectacularly disagree with something I will not be commenting further on this aspect of providing feedback.

If you think making others upset is a legitimate tactic in discussion then I think you're a bad influence and should go away.

If you're mindful of how how you make others feel then I agree your posts are meaningful even if I disagree with your execution.

You missed the entire point.  Offense is something you can assign to anything, and there's no reason that we should decide to disregard that which offends.  Sometimes, it actually makes us better.  Sometimes, it lets us see what we cannot because our perspective is different.

 

For a moment, join someone who deals with quality all of the time.  They have to listen to internal personnel, who believe that there is never a problem.  They then have to take a lot of thing from customers, who immediately know that a thing is bad simply by using it, and sometimes don't have the ability to express why it is bad.   They can express that it feels like these changes are spiteful, that the changes are brought about as insulting to players, and that there is evil when a game radically shifts with a directly negative impact.

 

To whit, I'm demonstrating that I respect your thoughts but believe they are wrong.  I'm calling the changes stupid.  I'm calling DE out as either not doing the math (lazy) or not respecting the investment of time players put in (insulting).  I use this after a wall of text, which people don't read.  Moreover, DE seems to not read text walls, preferring what used to be a 140 character limit.  

 

Why do I believe this?  Well, when people complained about the Hema the response was that it was not going to be changed.  The further justification was that DE wants to respect the time people spent grinding it.  OK, I'll give them a pass.  Likewise, the grind for Mesa was terrible for literal years because it was all about respect, until a minor patch note decreased the cost per beacon from 3 coordinates to 1.  A minor patch note.  What about the cost of a Railjack?  Well, that was justified initially as a thing only veterans should have.  Three months later it was a bad idea, they're refunding the resources, and nobody wants to go back and review.

My point is that this is not new, and arcanes are not the first time.  Yeah, if you've got the arcanes most of them are either about as good or better.  The issue is that if you don't have them the grind is now insane for something that is power.  DE has consistently stated that power would not be hidden behind a pay wall, yet these arcanes are very much.  They also have the RNG associated with the Arbitration systems, which I haven't even touched on.  

 

If I did this to somebody else it would be called evil pretty reasonably.  It would be called gouging, insulting, and horrible.  If you disagree, I'd like to point you in the direction of the CEO who decided to increase the cost of drugs because they were required to continue living, but not profitable enough in their eyes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli).  As a side note, they rolled back the gouging because it was terrible, but still wound up charging more.  It's really hard to not see a parallel with the arcane situation, where new players literally cannot be brought into the game because there's a fundamental power gap that they'll hit and immediately discover is a reason not to play.

So as stated, I'm not calling DE anything terrible, but seeing why some people do is not hard.  It's also hard to say that we need to to make sure not to hurt their feeling, because the last time we tried that route it took years, and we still don't have a universal vacuum in the game.   If you want examples let's peruse the market in-game.  DE is selling a bundle to remove RNG from the Lich system.  They're selling bundles to remove the grind wall in Railjack.  The only thing they aren't selling is the arcanes, but they'll gladly allow you to buy platinum and trade with somebody else.  None of the purchase options are unreasonable, but that's largely because it's a few hours of grind.  The arcanes have such low drop rates that it goes from a few hours to literal months.

 

The funny bit here is that you want everyone to offer their opinion in a kind way.  I would have agreed with you, but there's too much history here to ignore.  Our in-game chat moderation is now better because of a situation where people said things, it was taken as direct offense, and only once it was understood as a huge problem did anything get done.  Maybe it's not kind to be so angry, but there's a consistency to the response that anyone raising an issue is in the minority of players and a toxic hater.  If anyone who doesn't agree with you is a hater, then everything but praise is an insult. 

Arcanes are a problem that DE is "fixing" and making worse.  They tell us this is better, show us token math, and then it isn't.  If you want an example the change to railjack armor was a decrease, with a nearly silent HP increase, that if you did the math was an EHP increase.  Their fix for sponge enemies was to make them spongier.  Their fix for arcanes being too strong is to make only those that have them already get access to the best ones, and the means of acquiring them is now now a much longer grind.  Despite 40+ pages of feedback, another 20+ on a part 2, and the 10 here the feedback is largely something that doesn't seem to be heeded.  The response back is "there are some minor number tweaks to still do."  Yeah, not evil but maybe so tone-deaf that it makes DE seem more like Bethesda than the DE who I supported years ago by buying prime packs.  Somehow "I'm disappointed" doesn't seem like enough after seeing the fixes we suggested implemented months or years later, and taken as a win despite immediate feedback things were wrong.  They keep telling us that "you can do better" is always accepted, but when we say this it's just hate.

 

 

I'm spending all of this time to write because I can see your point, but believe it to be fundamentally wrong entirely based upon DE's history.  Constructive feedback is great.  The issue is that you need to have the blind praise balanced against the blind anger.  If you tell people that are angry to stop it, then you're killing players who love the game but want it good.  Once you bury too many of them you'll bury the game too.  It's pretty much an Overwatch situation, where a lot of people have left the game after bad patches.  The issue is Blizzard never listened, kept pushing their agenda rather than listening, and despite the chorus of people who still praise them the participation is looking pretty grim.  It's almost like comparing this forum to the poll Steve performed at the end of 2019 using the subset of players who love it, who also happen to be non-representative given that his polled population had to leave the game, find his twitter, follow it actively, and only then could they answer his questions.

It's almost like asking a fat kid if they like chocolate ice cream.  Yeah, we do.  That doesn't mean that everyone on the planet likes chocolate ice cream, it means your sampling population is biased and to get a better understanding you need to also poll the skinny kid who is lactose intolerant.  You also need to consider that once polled, you're going to get people who don't know why they believe something, but the data that they are on whatever side they take matters.  

[Tau.]

15 hours ago, Monolake said:

Ive tested it for you: https://streamable.com/7e2u0

 

Oh boy. A small clip of 1-3 base-level mobs attacking at a time. Totally irrefutable proof right there. 

Decent energy colors on the nikana skin there though, I'll give you that. 

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

6 hours ago, rstripn said:

 

I'm not arguing "rights" in a "free country" here, I'm just talking about being civil and respectful.

Calling changes "stupid" may not be an insult to DE but it's also not particularly useful feedback. Very small and recent examples of targeted insults are "evil" and "uncaring".

Everybody should help others feel comfortable when discussing opinions. You don't have to try to make the other person feel better but you should try to not make the other person feel worse. Separate the person and their argument.

 

P.S. Unless I spectacularly disagree with something I will not be commenting further on this aspect of providing feedback.

If you think making others upset is a legitimate tactic in discussion then I think you're a bad influence and should go away.

If you're mindful of how how you make others feel then I agree your posts are meaningful even if I disagree with your execution.

I appreciate your reminder to us all to be civilized and respectful of everyone's opinions.  Any casual observer could discern from reading these comments that the Warframe community is passionate and united in guiding DE towards creating the best game possible.  I will have to disagree with regard to rather it is appropriate to use such terms as "stupid" or"evil" in this forum. If the actions warrant using such terms, then those words are appropriate in their usage. In this instance, it is more than appropriate, it is necessary to convey the profound depth of error and gross injustice that was thrust upon the Warframe community.  The people in this forum have taken the time to make their voices heard because of their common passion for Warframe.  I think what is most disturbing about these Arcane changes is the attempted explanation and reasoning behind DE's changes.  There is sufficient video footage of DE's proclamation of its goal, to NOT create additional and burdensome grind.  There is and always will be some form of grind to the vast majority of games created in order to provide incentive to continue playing. Agreed. DE was moving towards becoming a mentor and leader of what other developers could achieve and become.  That has been severed, the pulse of the Warframe community is weakening and the hemorrhage of players will only get worse as they are bleed of their passion for Warframe.  My hope is that DE will listen to the community and repair the damage done so, once again, Warframe can be the shining example for all developers to aspire to become!

Tenno unite and make your voices heard before DE succumbs to the Dark side!

 

[(PSN)Dredgen_Vor]

2 hours ago, Tokomi_ said:

I clipped your post, but you paraphrased it nicely in any case.

They (DE) did not encourage anything. That verbiage is very disingenuous at best. And at worst, as you yourself put it, plainly dishonest. Because the option for variety was already built into the system.

Those players (loyal veterans it seems) wanted power not variety. Now, it *seems* they have nothing they originally wanted.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you think they are working on a fix, re-vamp, or retraction, or a very well worded politically correct explanation?

I honestly don’t even know, I just want my tears to be dried and our players to not be punished in the worst way in Warframe to date.

[Ham_Grenabe]

2 hours ago, Tokomi_ said:

Just out of curiosity, do you think they are working on a fix, re-vamp, or retraction, or a very well worded politically correct explanation?

With changes as significant as these, I wouldn't expect any of that except maybe the last one. Rollback and reversions aren't usually their style; at best it's small tweaks. Once they have an idea in their teeth they have real trouble letting go of it. 

[CosmicSolar]

Remove the Trigger Cool-down please.

You wanted a variety in builds, that's fine. But don't punish those of us who did the work to get the high rank arcane. Also you make them redundant with such huge cooldowns.

What it sounds like when mentioned:

A "maybe" chance to get a bonus effect every +15s but only if we can fulfill the requirements to trigger the bonus.

What actually happens:

e.g. Arcane Energize - Pickup 1st energy orb, don't get bonus. Pickup 2nd energy orb, get bonus. But now every energy orb acquired is normal for the next 15s. But wait, there's more!
That means your Arcane Energize is Useless for the next +15s or more if the drops that trigger it don't drop or you don't find them because you chanced it once!

Do you see how stinking long that sounds? It's essentially punishing you for receiving it's bonus.

Big oversight right here...

We Can't Double-Up anymore, so why is there a cool-down? You basically gave us a huge middle finger whilst simultaneously nerfing them.

And don't do some band-aid fix like shortening the cool-down to 3s or some other lame change that still retains the essence of the problem.

You're about to give easy access to them again, so any band-aid fixes are just repeated middle fingers to those of us, who played the game and worked to get them.

Remove the Trigger Cool-down please.

 

[rstripn]

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You missed the entire point.  Offense is something you can assign to anything, and there's no reason that we should decide to disregard that which offends.  Sometimes, it actually makes us better.  Sometimes, it lets us see what we cannot because our perspective is different.

 

For a moment, join someone who deals with quality all of the time.  They have to listen to internal personnel, who believe that there is never a problem.  They then have to take a lot of thing from customers, who immediately know that a thing is bad simply by using it, and sometimes don't have the ability to express why it is bad.   They can express that it feels like these changes are spiteful, that the changes are brought about as insulting to players, and that there is evil when a game radically shifts with a directly negative impact.

 

To whit, I'm demonstrating that I respect your thoughts but believe they are wrong.  I'm calling the changes stupid.  I'm calling DE out as either not doing the math (lazy) or not respecting the investment of time players put in (insulting).  I use this after a wall of text, which people don't read.  Moreover, DE seems to not read text walls, preferring what used to be a 140 character limit.  

 

Why do I believe this?  Well, when people complained about the Hema the response was that it was not going to be changed.  The further justification was that DE wants to respect the time people spent grinding it.  OK, I'll give them a pass.  Likewise, the grind for Mesa was terrible for literal years because it was all about respect, until a minor patch note decreased the cost per beacon from 3 coordinates to 1.  A minor patch note.  What about the cost of a Railjack?  Well, that was justified initially as a thing only veterans should have.  Three months later it was a bad idea, they're refunding the resources, and nobody wants to go back and review.

My point is that this is not new, and arcanes are not the first time.  Yeah, if you've got the arcanes most of them are either about as good or better.  The issue is that if you don't have them the grind is now insane for something that is power.  DE has consistently stated that power would not be hidden behind a pay wall, yet these arcanes are very much.  They also have the RNG associated with the Arbitration systems, which I haven't even touched on.  

 

If I did this to somebody else it would be called evil pretty reasonably.  It would be called gouging, insulting, and horrible.  If you disagree, I'd like to point you in the direction of the CEO who decided to increase the cost of drugs because they were required to continue living, but not profitable enough in their eyes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli).  As a side note, they rolled back the gouging because it was terrible, but still wound up charging more.  It's really hard to not see a parallel with the arcane situation, where new players literally cannot be brought into the game because there's a fundamental power gap that they'll hit and immediately discover is a reason not to play.

So as stated, I'm not calling DE anything terrible, but seeing why some people do is not hard.  It's also hard to say that we need to to make sure not to hurt their feeling, because the last time we tried that route it took years, and we still don't have a universal vacuum in the game.   If you want examples let's peruse the market in-game.  DE is selling a bundle to remove RNG from the Lich system.  They're selling bundles to remove the grind wall in Railjack.  The only thing they aren't selling is the arcanes, but they'll gladly allow you to buy platinum and trade with somebody else.  None of the purchase options are unreasonable, but that's largely because it's a few hours of grind.  The arcanes have such low drop rates that it goes from a few hours to literal months.

 

The funny bit here is that you want everyone to offer their opinion in a kind way.  I would have agreed with you, but there's too much history here to ignore.  Our in-game chat moderation is now better because of a situation where people said things, it was taken as direct offense, and only once it was understood as a huge problem did anything get done.  Maybe it's not kind to be so angry, but there's a consistency to the response that anyone raising an issue is in the minority of players and a toxic hater.  If anyone who doesn't agree with you is a hater, then everything but praise is an insult. 

Arcanes are a problem that DE is "fixing" and making worse.  They tell us this is better, show us token math, and then it isn't.  If you want an example the change to railjack armor was a decrease, with a nearly silent HP increase, that if you did the math was an EHP increase.  Their fix for sponge enemies was to make them spongier.  Their fix for arcanes being too strong is to make only those that have them already get access to the best ones, and the means of acquiring them is now now a much longer grind.  Despite 40+ pages of feedback, another 20+ on a part 2, and the 10 here the feedback is largely something that doesn't seem to be heeded.  The response back is "there are some minor number tweaks to still do."  Yeah, not evil but maybe so tone-deaf that it makes DE seem more like Bethesda than the DE who I supported years ago by buying prime packs.  Somehow "I'm disappointed" doesn't seem like enough after seeing the fixes we suggested implemented months or years later, and taken as a win despite immediate feedback things were wrong.  They keep telling us that "you can do better" is always accepted, but when we say this it's just hate.

 

 

I'm spending all of this time to write because I can see your point, but believe it to be fundamentally wrong entirely based upon DE's history.  Constructive feedback is great.  The issue is that you need to have the blind praise balanced against the blind anger.  If you tell people that are angry to stop it, then you're killing players who love the game but want it good.  Once you bury too many of them you'll bury the game too.  It's pretty much an Overwatch situation, where a lot of people have left the game after bad patches.  The issue is Blizzard never listened, kept pushing their agenda rather than listening, and despite the chorus of people who still praise them the participation is looking pretty grim.  It's almost like comparing this forum to the poll Steve performed at the end of 2019 using the subset of players who love it, who also happen to be non-representative given that his polled population had to leave the game, find his twitter, follow it actively, and only then could they answer his questions.

It's almost like asking a fat kid if they like chocolate ice cream.  Yeah, we do.  That doesn't mean that everyone on the planet likes chocolate ice cream, it means your sampling population is biased and to get a better understanding you need to also poll the skinny kid who is lactose intolerant.  You also need to consider that once polled, you're going to get people who don't know why they believe something, but the data that they are on whatever side they take matters.  

 

I have read your wall of text. Twice. Started to come up with a longer response but then shortened it to this:

I respect your viewpoint. You are just talking about much larger issues than I am concerned with. I change nothing about what I said earlier.

 

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

16 minutes ago, TheSilverians said:

You're about to give easy access to them again, so any band-aid fixes are just repeated middle fingers to those of us, who played the game and worked to get them.

 

Please explain what you mean by "easy access to them again."

Specifically, When ever has Arcane Energize been easily accessible? ("them also implies access to multiple units being easily accessible) Do not count the 1 Arcane Energize that was a reward for Nightwave

In addition, your statement implies that you have some knowledge of the upcoming events' methods of obtaining Standing and the prices of the Arcanes that will be offered else you would not have the authority to give such opinions

Sorry to inform you but the "middle finger" was given to every Warframe player when they profoundly changed the functionality of the entire Arcane library with the sole reason to make a tedious grind exponentially worse in the guise of creating diversity.  The implications of DE's continued subterfuge of denying continued requests for the basic mechanics of how certain Arcanes actually work should be more of a concern than your demands for change equal to your "double stacking" days before the update!

[(XBOX)mantis345462]

Can we have a comment or a response from someone at DE? Last I checked you had a number of ‘Community Managers’ and I assume part of that role is to respond to the community. I think just a quick ‘we acknowledge your concerns and (hopefully) are working on it’ would feel better than radio silence.

My gripe is having to farm or buy another 10-11 Arcanes to (re)max them.

Thanks

[Stokesy007]

Not specifically to do with arcanes but ...

I feel like Grendel was in some ways targeted to veterans with his acquisition method and the drain on his first ability. Now that double Arcane Energize is nerfed, can you please look at the energy consumption on Grendel's first and core ability? He's lost a lot of flow with the nerf to the point where a frame that is really a tank caster is left just standing there with no energy if you play him how I feel he was meant to be played. His energy drain feels exponential which makes it one of the few exponential things left in the game after the recent changes to armor, hp, and shields.

Now that armor is on an S curve, I would completely trade the armor reduction on his first ability with casts of his second ability (reduce armor when he stomps for buffs) if there was a flat drain on his first or even a small linear scale up with the number of eaten enemies.

[Takkov]

So the changes were just aimed to have a trinity in every squad again, I assume? Since with energize having such a huge cooldown, I personally will only go with squads where everyone has at least a full energize set, an EV or just solo as I used to, just with frames that dont rely on energy. Especially with Shield Gating other options of energy acquisition were additionally penalized, which leads to a very negative feel on the game for me currently.

[Bacl]

11 hours ago, Stokesy007 said:

Not specifically to do with arcanes but ...

I feel like Grendel was in some ways targeted to veterans with his acquisition method and the drain on his first ability. Now that double Arcane Energize is nerfed, can you please look at the energy consumption on Grendel's first and core ability? He's lost a lot of flow with the nerf to the point where a frame that is really a tank caster is left just standing there with no energy if you play him how I feel he was meant to be played. His energy drain feels exponential which makes it one of the few exponential things left in the game after the recent changes to armor, hp, and shields.

Now that armor is on an S curve, I would completely trade the armor reduction on his first ability with casts of his second ability (reduce armor when he stomps for buffs) if there was a flat drain on his first or even a small linear scale up with the number of eaten enemies.

What i am about to say is not a way to refute the change to erneregize in any ways but Rage or Hunter adrenalinegoes a long way on Grendel specially when you can heal with your 3 or using a healing melee weapons.