So many frames are wasted on current content.

[moondog548]

On 2020-03-15 at 10:22 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

A lot of that issue is that pure mindless damage reigns supreme in this grind based game, so damaging the most enemies with the most damage is ideal. 

My recommendation has repeatedly been to diversify combat through enemy specialization to fix the "one nuke to rule them all mentality".

• Balance role diversity through enemy types -
  • Common, abundant enemies should be susceptible to AoE damage (from both frames and weapons) since that is the purpose of AoE in a hoard killing game. But other enemies should resist AoE damage.
  • There can be enemy types that put debuffs on players that have a long duration but can be removed by Warframe healing abilities (and health orbs created from Warframe abilities).
  • Tanky frames are almost exclusively self serving these days since most don't have much, if any threat manipulation. There could be some sort of enemy that bypasses a portion of player natural defenses, but are naturally taunted more towards the tanky frames while their defensive abilities are active (the defensive ability would ignore the enemy's ability to bypass defenses so they are actually protecting their allies).
  • There should be more enemies like Nox that are heavily damage resistant except when certain conditions are met (like how Nox has to have his helmet shot off first before he's squishy). This could be used to encourage all sorts of play styles:
    • Enemies resistant to all damage, except while under effect of cc.
    • Enemies only vulnerable to single target damage (from weapons or abilities)
    • Enemies only vulnerable to head shots.
    • Enemies only vulnerable to melee.

This post is a heavy dose of concentrated SOOTH!

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

40 minutes ago, moondog548 said:

This post is a heavy dose of concentrated SOOTH!

Feel free to spread it around then. Hehe

I don't need credit for it, just get it out there so DE can be on the same page. I just want the game fixed, and balanced around functional core mechanics. 

[AzureTerra]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Only so far as picking the tools, but again we do not get to decide the power of those tools which generates the meta, we can only ever manage what is given to us. DE creates the meta weapons, or the balance steps that turn them meta, we just respond. 

 

Providing the content /tools isn't making the meta. The meta is players finding out how they can achieve the most efficient route to the goal. If DE deice that a Frame/weapon is doing what its doing too well or not well enough that's a change they make and the playerbase will adapt its meta to suit. the "power" level is how efficient it proves to be to use a tool to do a task.

[Ikyr0]

10 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

The feta meta will always be whatever the player bases chooses it to be, its not up to DE to do anything. 

this is a very common misunderstanding around here, and a delusion. metas are designed. think of meta as an "endgame" methodology that is part of game design, but one that is hidden from players, and has to be found. it is up to devs to plan for a meta when designing, OR to tweak it as it is unveiled. meta chooses players, not the other way around. In other words, players stick around only if they like how the game is commonly and efficiently played. this is a subconscious process, and why good game design is so important. this is also why most players will not and should not "take off their mods" or use a "less OP frame" if they "want to feel challenged" (another asinine suggestion that floats around these forums).

arguably, until people started leaving in droves, DE gave zero f's about endgame and how to design pve metas. some DE employees made fun of players who were asking for endgame content, which was a very arrogant and short-sighted move. but they are certainly singing a different tune in 2020. in a recent IGN interview, Rebecca stated DE had to step it up because of the massive competition from other GAAS titles this year. I'm really glad that DE doesn't think that "it's not up to DE to do anything", because there wouldn't be much of a game if that were true. they're finally starting to realize "oh damn, so we actually gotta balance this thing and make rational decisions when designing new content."

Edited March 17, 2020 by Ikyr0

[Ikyr0]

3 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Simply remove the stat break downs of kills and damage and just show the rewards...Co-OP suddenly becomes Co-OP and not a passive aggressive death race to the end...

WF was never a coop game. in fact, outside of some public events and bosses, it's much more efficient to solo content. it's a good example of "parallel play" (versus cooperative), like when you see toddlers playing beside each other versus with each other to complete some objective. In an Arbitration, I might every now and then rez someone. and that's the extent of coop in an "endgame" activity. in regular missions, we race past each other to complete the objective as fast as possible. WF is in a place where parallel play is tolerated, and cooperative play is not required. this is why i love the direction they've taken with Railjack and Squad Link. 

from a design perspective, game encounters require roles (tank, dps, healer for example) for true cooperative activities, which WF doesn't have. not just for content completion, but also for most efficient content completion. this way, it's a natural and easy choice to play with others. Eidolons is probably the only example of this (as well as comps for Mot survivals back in the day), but the encounter is very poorly balanced which is why only 5-6 frames are "efficient" in that game mode. 

Designing around true cooperative content exposes an gigantic mound of imbalances and poor past design decisions for DE. to create meaningful encounters, they have to clean up the mess they've been sweeping under the rug for 4-5 years. this Revised update is simply a small part of that.

8 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

Well he is, also a lot of other frames had become viable at all content.

This affected many many frames in good ways.
Excal got from an A-tier to an A++
Mag is viable(before she was too but not so so easy)
every frame except nidus and inaros got a buff from this update

my boy Nidus =( the new content is moving right past him. this is even more apparent when you look at the upcoming event. 

While Mag is in a much better place, sadly she is very much outclassed by other nuke frames. as i stated, her bubble combo takes too long to setup for most of the game's content (same problem as Nidus with his Larva). these frames scale up infinitely, but there's no reason to run them in lower level content. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Ikyr0

[NekroArts]

18 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

this is a very common misunderstanding around here, and a delusion. meta chooses players, not the other way around. In other words, players stick around only if they like how the game is commonly and efficiently played. this is a subconscious process, and why good game design is so important.

Like wise with you stance. For all the meta that exist only a few have remain consistently used like in Eidolons and long Infested Excavation Arbitration. In cases where the mission are easy, where yeah you expect players to go meta (all Limbos in Mobile Defense, Mesas and Equinoxs in Exterminate), you'll see players stray away from it. By your standards, it'll be classified as inefficient. So why do they do it? Playing efficiently is only part of the desire, the other is level of engagement. Outside of those consistent-meta, there will be players that can and will play outside of the meta because they like something that exist outside of it. As inefficient as it is compared to the top efficient, it's not so low that players don't feel impactful yet fairly efficient; or in some cases they don't care. They just bring it for the sake of enjoying playing in that style. Whether any player goes meta or not depends on their goals and desires.

If you haven't already seen this thread OP also express the same desire you want, but there are players express differently.

 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

11 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

when you cast your Larva, and everything is dead before it finishes animating, because other frames are more efficient in the sub lvl 120-ish, no matter how you build your Nidus - that's 90% of the game. 

 

Please show the Saryn build that NUKES lv 120 enemies. Saryn needs ability duration over strength so spores damage can ramp up. Mesa is never nuking 120s with peacemaker. Lmao, it's like you only use 1 frame but use everyone's opinion about other frames. And once again Khora will out dps Saryn or Mesa

Edited March 17, 2020 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

this is also why most players will not and should not "take off their mods" or use a "less OP frame" if they "want to feel challenged" (another asinine suggestion that floats around these forums).

Das’ me! I’m one of the ones who strips back! Even wrote a topic about how I do it. 

Wanna know why I choose my challenge?

Edited March 17, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[MPonder]

3 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Like wise with you stance. For all the meta that exist only a few have remain consistently used like in Eidolons and long Infested Excavation Arbitration. In cases where the mission are easy, where yeah you expect players to go meta (all Limbos in Mobile Defense, Mesas and Equinoxs in Exterminate), you'll see players stray away from it. By your standards, it'll be classified as inefficient. So why do they do it? Playing efficiently is only part of the desire, the other is level of engagement. Outside of those consistent-meta, there will be players that can and will play outside of the meta because they like something that exist outside of it. As inefficient as it is compared to the top efficient, it's not so low that players don't feel impactful yet fairly efficient; or in some cases they don't care. They just bring it for the sake of enjoying playing in that style. Whether any player goes meta or not depends on their goals and desires.

If you haven't already seen this thread OP also express the same desire you want, but there are players express differently.

From my game exp::

So why do they do it? Most of the time, lack of knowledge, understanding and effort in trying to do something right, in other words, too lazy to learn. Arbitration excavation is an example, why the #*!% people went there with Inarus, Rhino, Wukong, etc, no Limbos or Frosts. Eidolons is an another big example, playing meta or off-meta, if the off-meta players have the knowledge in how to do it right, they would still be OK playing off-meta, but what you see is that people hate Eidolons because most people do it wrong in the most Coop content this game have, and the only one that require a little bit more effort in learning it, and I'm talking about playing and not Warframe choice. Even when these "forfun off-meta" players play the META, they do poorly. A META player can perform better than these forfun off-meta players with an off-meta choice easy, because they know what is the META and why. And when things change, META players are the ones that come with the changes to the META, not the off-meta players.

In every game, why doing actual Coop content with randoms without any form of "elitism" like 200+ hydro caps is a lot of time a horrible exp? Because people like off-meta more or it is because most people dunno what to actually do? For me, it is because most people dunno what to do.

For me, these things "I just wanna have fun" and hating the META is just a disguise for laziness.

META is something that usually is discovered by a group of people, not just one, and when you try to understanding it, you are trying to understand something that came from a lot of brains. In other words, something a little more complex that just one person coudn't come up with it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warframe content is all about killing, we need actual Coop content, tanks to be actual tanks (take damage for the team), not just Warframe that die slower than others. A lot of Warframes have no place in the game on the content it has because either, there is no content that require that Warframe abilities or simple there are much better choices, a lot of "for fun" made Warframes.

[Ikyr0]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Das’ me! I’m one of the ones who strips back! Even wrote a topic about how I do it. 

Wanna know why I choose my challenge?

I support you man, but I firmly believe devs need to have systems in place to challenge the player somehow. it's part of just about every single game i know. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Ikyr0 said:

I support you man, but I firmly believe devs need to have systems in place to challenge the player somehow. it's part of just about every single game i know. 

You’re acting like I’m not on the same page in regards to developer responsibility 😛

[NekroArts]

17 hours ago, MPonder said:

From my game exp::

So why do they do it? Most of the time, lack of knowledge, understanding and effort in trying to do something right, in other words, too lazy to learn.

For me, these things "I just wanna have fun" and hating the META is just a disguise for laziness.

Make sense when the content in question is endgame, but what OP reference is instances of mass killing at around "+120" and "lvl 200". OP, wanting every frame to be nukers because two other frames are killing faster/efficient than the rest (meta), is just asking to the kill diversity over a minuscule matter. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by NekroArts

[Cubewano]

On 2020-03-17 at 10:33 AM, AzureTerra said:

Providing the content /tools isn't making the meta. The meta is players finding out how they can achieve the most efficient route to the goal. If DE deice that a Frame/weapon is doing what its doing too well or not well enough that's a change they make and the playerbase will adapt its meta to suit. the "power" level is how efficient it proves to be to use a tool to do a task.

The meta doesn't exist without the tools, an aoe meta doesn't happen unless we are given powerful aoe weapons, a nuke meta doesn't happen unless we are given nuke frames, DE is in control of what kind of metas form in this game because they control our tools, the biggest factors in forming any meta, not us. 

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

On 2020-03-15 at 9:44 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I wouldn’t call Baruuk a God rn. He’s the best he’s ever been, but there’s still parts of his kit that hold him back a little.

Is it the restraint?

[Ikyr0]

On 2020-03-18 at 12:29 PM, NekroArts said:

Make sense when the content in question is endgame, but what OP reference is instances of mass killing at around "+120" and "lvl 200". OP, wanting every frame to be nukers because two other frames are killing faster/efficient than the rest (meta), is just asking to the kill diversity over a minuscule matter. 

It's not two frames, and it's not a miniscule matter. Most content is designed in a way that we are supposed to be killing hordes. Yet, many frames are left out because they either require too much setup time (they are too slow or their abilities animate slowly), or they don't have a way of doing good aoe damage. So like in any ARPG, you can balance the game around aoe hack and slash/nuking by buffing other frames to keep up with the content.  And these frames can all clear this content in a different style. I'm just asking for balance and clarity in game design.

37 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Is it the restraint?

I'll just briefly comment here that I have virtually zero downtime on Serene Storm, and I do most content with Baruuk. Most people complaining about his kit either don't know how to build him, or don't put in the effort to learn his abilities. His entire kit revolves around maximizing his 3 & 4, with 1&2 being used just to drop Restraint meter. You can specialize in his 2 for focus/affinity farming, but otherwise CC has no role in current content...which circles back to my original point: if you're gonna design content around nuking hordes, then be consistent with frame/ability design. Just look at Nyx. Wtf is she supposed to do here?

Edited March 20, 2020 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Not entirely on-topic @Ikyr0 but last I crunched the numbers, Mag's 4>3 combo at 185 str could full strip heavies up to around lv130. After that, a second 3 or preceding corrosive proc is needed for full strip. This was a couple years back. She should be able to two-cast full strip well into the hundreds now. The trouble is keeping her self-sufficient (unless you have nothing against pizzas). Once she needs 3 casts to strip, it becomes more difficult to manage her energy. Eventually, once armor is high enough, you need 4>4>3 to full strip, and the only things that keep that sustainable are Trinity and the old Energize. I haven't run the numbers, but just based on a cursory glance at the graph, I don't think this will happen until over lv500, possibly much much higher.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

32 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

It's not two frames, and it's not a miniscule matter. Most content is designed in a way that we are supposed to be killing hordes. Yet, many frames are left out because they either require too much setup time (they are too slow or their abilities animate slowly), or they don't have a way of doing good aoe damage. So like in any ARPG, you can balance the game around aoe hack and slash/nuking by buffing other frames to keep up with the content.  And these frames can all clear this content in a different style. I'm just asking for balance and clarity in game design.

I'll just briefly comment here that I have virtually zero downtime on Serene Storm, and I do most content with Baruuk. Most people complaining about his kit either don't know how to build him, or don't put in the effort to learn his abilities. His entire kit revolves around maximizing his 3 & 4, with 1&2 being used just to drop Restraint meter. You can specialize in his 2 for focus/affinity farming, but otherwise CC has no role in current content...which circles back to my original point: if you're gonna design content around nuking hordes, then be consistent with frame/ability design. Just look at Nyx. Wtf is she supposed to do here?

Id like to see you say that to @GearsMatrix301, id very much like to know what he thinks needs changing for Baruuk. Every time I see a Baruuk post he sleeps on the frame. Not that I got a problem with it, I just want to see what he would change.

Edited March 20, 2020 by (PS4)ErydisTheLucario

[Ikyr0]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Not entirely on-topic @Ikyr0 but last I crunched the numbers, Mag's 4>3 combo at 185 str could full strip heavies up to around lv130. After that, a second 3 or preceding corrosive proc is needed for full strip. This was a couple years back. She should be able to two-cast full strip well into the hundreds now. The trouble is keeping her self-sufficient (unless you have nothing against pizzas). Once she needs 3 casts to strip, it becomes more difficult to manage her energy. Eventually, once armor is high enough, you need 4>4>3 to full strip, and the only things that keep that sustainable are Trinity and the old Energize. I haven't run the numbers, but just based on a cursory glance at the graph, I don't think this will happen until over lv500, possibly much much higher.

Thanks! Mag is great man, her Polarize and Fracturing Crush got mad buffed when mobs' armor got nerfed...so it's really easy for her to strip it. I'm not sure how I want to build Mag right now. I'm playing a couple of other frames atm that clear content way faster, so I'm fairly uncertain. Trying to find a role for her, something she does better than other...can't find it.

.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Ikyr0

[Ikyr0]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Id like to see you say that to @GearsMatrix30@GearsMatrix301

Say what to who? About Nyx? She has no nuking capabilities, and no role in current content. She's been left in the dust, and DE just ditched after her terrible rework last year. It's just so disappointing. There is about a dozen other frames that have been left behind, which is why I made the thread in the first place.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

2 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

Say what to who? About Nyx? She has no nuking capabilities, and no role in current content. She's been left in the dust, and DE just ditched after her terrible rework last year. It's just so disappointing.

No Baruuk bruh, that guy @GearMatrix301 always sleeps on him without saying what he'd change. Try saying Baruuk godly to him and he will dismiss it. And sorry about butchering the name, dont always @ someone here.

[Ikyr0]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

No Baruuk bruh, that guy @GearMatrix301 always sleeps on him without saying what he'd change. Try saying Baruuk godly to him and he will dismiss it. And sorry about butchering the name, dont always @ someone here.

Oh sorry. Yeah I'm done trying to convince people about Baruuk. He will be my hidden gem, my quiet enjoyment, my main. Only Baruuk mains know. 🤫

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

1 minute ago, Ikyr0 said:

Thanks! Mag is great man, her Polarize and Fracturing Crush got mad buffed when mobs' armor got nerfed...so it's really easy for her to strip it. I'm not sure how I want to build Mag right now. I'm playing a couple of other frames atm that clear content way faster, so I'm fairly uncertain.

Yeah, I mainly just used Mag because I enjoyed her so much. She's got a fun kit. Lot of latent potential.

There's another route you can go with her, but some say it's a little cheesy. Grab a radiation weapon, and a corrosive weapon, both projectile vs hitscan. Hit a group with 4>2, then throw rounds from both weapons in, and let the unarmored enemies murder themselves. The higher the levels, the better. New enemy armor/health can't keep up with enemy damage.

My tests a few years ago yielded Magnetize explosions worth 1.6mil with a group of 4 lv145 corrupted bombards. The weapons I used were corrosive Pox and radiation Mutalist Cernos. But that was before the balance pass, you have many more good options now.

[Ikyr0]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Yeah, I mainly just used Mag because I enjoyed her so much. She's got a fun kit. Lot of latent potential.

There's another route you can go with her, but some say it's a little cheesy. Grab a radiation weapon, and a corrosive weapon, both projectile vs hitscan. Hit a group with 4>2, then throw rounds from both weapons in, and let the unarmored enemies murder themselves. The higher the levels, the better. New enemy armor/health can't keep up with enemy damage.

My tests a few years ago yielded Magnetize explosions worth 1.6mil with a group of 4 lv145 corrupted bombards. The weapons I used were corrosive Pox and radiation Mutalist Cernos. But that was before the balance pass, you have many more good options now.

Thanks. Yeah honestly Mag has so many options now. Vir/heat Cyanex with Seeker is one of the best options for her bubble. But her dps and scalability were never a problem imo. Her combos are a bit slow in this fast paced nuke meta, and she has mediocre survivability even with shield gating. When there are frames with 90-98% DR who are able to wipe an entire room in 3 seconds...what's the point.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Ikyr0

[NekroArts]

39 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

It's not two frames, and it's not a miniscule matter. Most content is designed in a way that we are supposed to be killing hordes. Yet, many frames are left out because they either require too much setup time (they are too slow or their abilities animate slowly), or they don't have a way of doing good aoe damage. So like in any ARPG, you can balance the game around aoe hack and slash/nuking by buffing other frames to keep up with the content.  And these frames can all clear this content in a different style. I'm just asking for balance and clarity in game design.

Is the "most content" still referencing the level +120 and 200? That's where my issue with your suggestion lies. If all mobs dies in a second within those levels, giving the other frames abilities to do the same thing when they're in a squad will make them compete. Two ways this can go: the player who reacts the fastest or the frame that has the most efficient nuke for spam. The one player that gets the kills the fastest will result in the same thing - other frames falling behind. It's why people separate in survival; a squad full of nukers will automatically separate into different directions to get their own kills. Yes separating messes up the spawning of mobs, but staying together will only result in one of them with the kills while the rest either settles to do nothing or put fruitless effort to get kills.

To balance the game around everyone to have aoe hack and slash/nuke for enemies levels that are innately easy will not solve the problem. We need content (or able to set the enemy's starting level ourselves) so that nuking is only part of the kill and the others can contribute by either cc, buff/debuff, or their own nuke to make up the rest.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Is it the restraint?

It’s his 1/3 synergy.