Non-damage Status Effects are useless.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Prove me wrong and show examples where they matter.

 

Let's go through every status proc in the game:

Slash - applies damage over time, ignores armor - helps to kill heavily armored enemies faster. (useful)

Puncture - reduces enemy damage - who cares if enemies still either die fast or you are not well equipped tor this mission if they don't. (useless)

Impact - knock back, knock down, ragdoll - slows down the killing, makes aiming harder. (not just useless but counter-productive, the worst proc at the moment).

 

Heat - adds damage over time, halves the armor (useful)

Cold - slows down enemies, which is good on the paper but enemies die so fast that this effect does nothing (useless)

Toxin - damage over time, ignores shields, even direct damage toxin portion ignores shields (useful)

Electricity - stuns enemies around the target, part of the damage goes to those around, sounds good on paper but needs a boost may be, I still don't feel any increase in killing rate from this one (could be usefull)

 

Blast - reduces accuracy to the enemies around? used to be as bad as Impact now but since the last update it is not counter-productive anymore (but still useless)

Corrosive - was good and still good vs armor, reduces armor, makes killing armored enemies faster (useful)

Radiation - confusion and bonus damage of this unit to other enemies. It does nothing in practice (useless)

Viral - increases damage to health (it was good and remains good)

Gas - similar to toxin, but very small aoe, no shield bypassing, though upcoming changes should make it a more viable proc (kind of useful and should be even better)

Magnetic - increases damage to shields.. why, when we have toxin that ignores shield... never was useful, not useful now, I wonder if it will ever be. (useless)

 

The problem with any proc that deals no additional damage is the game itself. Enemies die too fast, there is no time to feel benefits of debuffs on them. What's the point of slow, inacuracy, confusion, reduced damage, knock downs if the game is designed the way you need to kill hordes of enemies as fast as possible? The best crowd controll in warframe is - DEATH.  And it is easier to kill an enemy than proc debuffs on them. 

If you aim at the enemy and shoot bullets - this enemy either dies with a blink of an eye or you are doing something wrong.

 

The only viable CC/debuffs in warframe is if it is a wide range aoe with low/no damage. If we had weapons like our explosives with highly boosted range but very low damage and high status chance - that would be kinda way to play with debuff procs that weaken all targets in range. I mean one weapon for debuffs, another weapon to kill. But if we get weakening procs on our weapons that make the killing - what's the point?

Edited March 16, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[Althaline]

In the vast majority of content, you would be correct. However, I find it useful to stack Cold procs on particularly tough enemies such as Noxes at high levels (if I could do it to Sentients other than the Brachiolyst, I would). Blast no longer has a place as a proc at all, being outdone in its uselessness only by current Impact, Puncture, Magnetic, and the anti-helpful Void procs.

[Xaero]

So, the real problem is... enemies die too fast.

[8faiNt]

2 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

In the vast majority of content, you would be correct. However, I find it useful to stack Cold procs on particularly tough enemies such as Noxes at high levels (if I could do it to Sentients other than the Brachiolyst, I would). Blast no longer has a place as a proc at all, being outdone in its uselessness only by current Impact, Puncture, Magnetic, and the anti-helpful Void procs.

in reality, you dont need enemies to be slowed down because killing them is just doing fine. Why bother and try to freeze them when you could just kill them and not bother with it. 

It's also more rewarding to kill.

OP is right.  Killing is the ultimate counter to everything because it works better.

2 minutes ago, Xaero said:

So, the real problem is... enemies die too fast.

The real problem is; DE cannot balance the IPS system to be useful. Knowing de, they would prob nerf other things to balance the IPS system instead of completly reworking IPS to be useful.

It's whatever at this point.

[Teridax68]

I have to agree with the conclusion: it's difficult to make use of crowd control or utility that isn't just about killing enemies faster, because there are no enemies out there that are currently even remotely challenging enough for us to genuinely value tools designed specifically to keep them under control. The only enemies that would qualify, i.e. bosses and minibosses such as Kuva Liches, Assassination targets, Orb Mothers, Eidolons, are immune to status anyway for now, though once that changes we might see an uptick in Cold, Puncture, and possibly even Blast status (assuming players don't just pick tank frames as they always do and use damaging status instead). In general, our killing pace is far too quick I'd say, and should be reined in if enemies are to become anything more than pop-up targets in a shooting gallery.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Teridax68

[Lone_Dude]

The impact rework sounds promising because it adds a damage type specifically for triggering finishers. As useless as it is in terms of killing S#&$, if done correctly, it will become a great utility tool.

Blast could be cool if it dropped enemies on their ass, leaving them sitting and exposing their weakpoints(head, for most enemies). But yeah, we got this accuracy debuff that doesn't seem to do much even at 6 stacks.

Radiation needs a duration increase, its not viable even if you build a status duration corrosive/rad/fire weapon because you'll still kill enemies faster than they'll kill each other simply by trying to keep radiation stacks on the enemy.

Cold was useful at one point, as @Andele3025 pointed out numerous times, but it was nerfed.

I think the only proper solution to that problem, along with many others is to change the enemy design from dumb bullet sponges with head as their weakness to something else. And it seems that many people come to that conclusion after witnessing multiple gameplay reworks falling flat.

[ShortCat]

Current damage system is bloated and could use some trimming to reduce redundancies or functionality overlap. You could easely cut the number of damage types in half.

[OmegaVoid]

4 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Radiation - confusion and bonus damage of this unit to other enemies. It does nothing in practice (useless)

I was just in the Void using the Phage (Viral+Corrosive). When I ran into an enemy which wouldn't take damage, it was hunt-the-lurking-Ancient time again.

I don't get that with the Phantasma 😛.

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Current damage system is bloated and could use some trimming to reduce redundancies or functionality overlap. You could easely cut the number of damage types in half.

Agreed. Given the ongoing lack of success of IPS you could probably just condense all of that to Physical damage and make Slash its only proc. Really, damage types and status in general could probably use an even more comprehensive look, given that the recent overhaul has shown that DE has had to come up with a whole bunch of mechanical changes to justify a preexisting system, when we should be asking ourselves if that system is truly contributing to gameplay on its own, or at least to an extent that matches its complexity. For all the complexity of damage, status, and its over a dozen damage and status types, there still doesn't seem to be that much depth to it all.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

4 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

The impact rework sounds promising because it adds a damage type specifically for triggering finishers. As useless as it is in terms of killing S#&$, if done correctly, it will become a great utility tool.

Blast could be cool if it dropped enemies on their ass, leaving them sitting and exposing their weakpoints(head, for most enemies). But yeah, we got this accuracy debuff that doesn't seem to do much even at 6 stacks.

Radiation needs a duration increase, its not viable even if you build a status duration corrosive/rad/fire weapon because you'll still kill enemies faster than they'll kill each other simply by trying to keep radiation stacks on the enemy.

Cold was useful at one point, as @Andele3025 pointed out numerous times, but it was nerfed.

I think the only proper solution to that problem, along with many others is to change the enemy design from dumb bullet sponges with head as their weakness to something else. And it seems that many people come to that conclusion after witnessing multiple gameplay reworks falling flat.

Couldnt agree more

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

5 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Cold - slows down enemies, which is good on the paper but enemies die so fast that this effect does nothing (useless)

I disagree! It makes shooting enemy weakpoints much easier and less annoying!!

 

But it could use more duration and/or something helps deal damage like causing the ice coats to shatter and damage other enemies. That would be really nice.

But dont call cold procs useless! Ill freeze you and then Haunt you 😠

[Scar.brother.help.me]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I disagree! It makes shooting enemy weakpoints much easier and less annoying!!

 

But it could use more duration and/or something helps deal damage like causing the ice coats to shatter and damage other enemies. That would be really nice.

But dont call cold procs useless! Ill freeze you and then Haunt you 😠

When did you aim at weak points for the last time? Who was the enemy? What lvl and what mission?

 

The problem with enemies in the game is that there is a very thin line between "enemies die fast" and "enemies kill you fast". At the second point people just leave endless missions and it starts all over. Nobody really tries to control them, just kill asap, get the random prize and do it again. It's about grind after all.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

But if there were much more enemies like Nox...

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

51 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

When did you aim at weak points for the last time? Who was the enemy? What lvl and what mission?

Using glaxion and shooting a running capture target in the head, slowing down noxs for more head shots, ambulas because it turns around so much, same with bursas though theyre a little easier to hit

Etc

I know yall tryna say enemies die fast but they dont die so fast to the point where you cant eventually use additional headshots or stop enemies that jerking around so much

(Unless yall out here using shotguns and explosive weapons, cause thats a whole nother story)

 

But yea, i agree cold can use some additional buffs cause its definitely not as useful as the heat proc, but slowing enemies isnt the most useless thing in the world. If i were to buff cold id give it AOE damage from shattering pieces of ice. Maybe the shattered pieces can deal the enemies lost health as damage to nearby ones for a little bit of scaling damage too

Blast i think should do the same but come with more aoe range and with the effect of spreading other status effects like explosive weapons do

Edited March 16, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[ShortCat]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Agreed. Given the ongoing lack of success of IPS you could probably just condense all of that to Physical damage and make Slash its only proc. Really, damage types and status in general could probably use an even more comprehensive look, given that the recent overhaul has shown that DE has had to come up with a whole bunch of mechanical changes to justify a preexisting system, when we should be asking ourselves if that system is truly contributing to gameplay on its own, or at least to an extent that matches its complexity. For all the complexity of damage, status, and its over a dozen damage and status types, there still doesn't seem to be that much depth to it all.

Yeah, especially after the recent revisit everything has been reduced to Viral.

3 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

-snip-

Cold's slow can be usefull, not so much on weapons, due to fairly tame bonuses, but on abilities with a forced proc like Icewave Impedance it helps a lot.

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

It's the same reason why cc and support frames are useless compared to aoe damage frames and tank frames.

Nothing lasts long enough for anything else to matter. 

[Shy0]

i think de should just embrace the idea that warframe is, for the most part, a mass mob-killing game and keep things simple. sure, there are some "boss fights" here and there, but the way the game is designed, with us being much squishier and said bosses often being bullet sponges and having aoe abilities, our best tactics often involve just making things dead quicker than they make us dead.

cold used to be decent at slowing tougher enemies (and as a secondary element for some shield damage) but having to stack the slow now makes it quite useless in many situations.

blast reducing accuracy is a joke. if enemies are low-level, they die before anything becomes an issue. if they are high-level, they just need to sneeze in any direction and the squishy frames will need a revive, a heavy gunner just needs one bullet to graze us, a bombard just needs to hit the indestructible crate next to us to blow us into space, a "boss" just aoes everything anyway so reducing their accuracy isn't even going to do anything.

puncture just denies a more useful status the chance to proc. it might shine in boss fights, especially for newbies or public groups where survivability might be an issue, but with bosses being status-immune, it's pointless.

radiation is actually decent cc. doesn't make the affected enemy harder to shoot (except maybe they turn their heads away from us) and takes aggro from other enemies, so i disagree with op that it's useless. stacking radiation is pointless though. HOWEVER.. if WE get radiation procced, it's very easy to team wipe.

in the end, de need to know what sort of game they are making. with all the different directions the game has gone recently, i think they are being overambitious and instead of making things more streamlined, they have splintered everything and made things more complicated and difficult for themselves.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I can see Impact having a lot of use cases if Blast’s accuracy-loss proc was applied to Impact instead. The more an enemy is hit with this proc, the more their accuracy is staggered which is sensible for a lot of weapons (both firearms and melee) that are primarily impact-centric or have guaranteed impact procs.

Blast can then use Impact’s stagger/knockback/knockdown procs as it traditionally did before and still maintain its identity as an opt-in crowd control status (and would be more beneficial if and when this proc gets adjusted to open enemies into finishers).

I just don’t understand why DE hasn’t decided to swap these two statuses and continue to leave them intact (only to announce that Impact will be worked on as described above). It would help adjust the status meta if you ask me.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Has anyone recently thanked DE for listening to the forums?

[CopperBezel]

8 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

When did you aim at weak points for the last time? Who was the enemy? What lvl and what mission?

Honestly, if I'm not using AoE or melee and I'm fighting Grineer, I make some effort at landing headshots. With a high crit gun, that's four times the damage, and that doesn't mean a quarter the TTK because status is a thing but it's enough difference to feel. I've always preferred Heat in terms of making headshots easier, but I guess I haven't used a lot of Cold even after the update, so maybe? As for enemy level, anything I can't kill by sneezing at, which I guess is really anything past level 70 or so. 

On the main topic, 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Given the ongoing lack of success of IPS you could probably just condense all of that to Physical damage and make Slash its only proc. 

I'd really like to see this happen now. Physical damage with Bleed. Trade in all the IPS mods for a 90 and a 60/60 per weapon type that work like elementals. Dropping the preferential weighting kinda ended the special relevance of IPS distribution, and that relevance had literally become "how much of this is slash for the proc distribution" already, which just made Bleed Chance a third stat alongside Crit and Status. 

And there are certainly far too many elements, it'd just be hard to cut it down at this stage. Combining elements prevent having more than two elements on a weapon at a time and limit the possible combinations. You'd need some new factor to have similar effects, like heat and cold or electric and toxin canceling each other out and having a null proc instead or something.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

8 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Honestly, if I'm not using AoE or melee and I'm fighting Grineer, I make some effort at landing headshots. With a high crit gun, that's four times the damage, and that doesn't mean a quarter the TTK because status is a thing but it's enough difference to feel. I've always preferred Heat in terms of making headshots easier, but I guess I haven't used a lot of Cold even after the update, so maybe? As for enemy level, anything I can't kill by sneezing at, which I guess is really anything past level 70 or so. 

On the main topic, 

I'd really like to see this happen now. Physical damage with Bleed. Trade in all the IPS mods for a 90 and a 60/60 per weapon type that work like elementals. Dropping the preferential weighting kinda ended the special relevance of IPS distribution, and that relevance had literally become "how much of this is slash for the proc distribution" already, which just made Bleed Chance a third stat alongside Crit and Status. 

And there are certainly far too many elements, it'd just be hard to cut it down at this stage. Combining elements prevent having more than two elements on a weapon at a time and limit the possible combinations. You'd need some new factor to have similar effects, like heat and cold or electric and toxin canceling each other out and having a null proc instead or something.

It is true that whenever I see a new weapon my first check is how much crit, status and slash it has. I am not so much of a veteran, almost 2 years of playing but during these 2 years I've tried every element, tested it good both in simulacrum and during lots of different missions. And I've never ever noticed any benefits from puncture, impact, cold, radiation, blast, magnetic, electric procs. My first maxed primed elemental mod was Primed Cryo Rounds. I tried it as a stand alone element a lot, I wanted to save an extra slot for something else rather than add toxin for Viral. But I've always came back to Viral.

Do you think Hunter Munitions would be popular if it granted Puncture or Impact procs? 😉

P.S:"Cold is a nice effect when it comes from something else rather than your weapon, i.e. Taxon's cold beam (though for me this beam is a good way to point at the enemy where to shoot and a 100% proc for Growing Power and Condition Overload, a little slow is just a free bonus)".

P.P.S:"I'd change IPS damage and status procs that way:

Puncture damage portion to always ignore armor (as Toxin to shileds now),

Puncture status proc to let the whole damage bypass the armor.

Impact damage portion to ignore shields instead of Toxin and

Impact status proc to let the whole damage instance (bullet/pellet/rocket/beam tick) bypass shields.

And keep the old Slash proc bypass both armor and shields.

That way puncture would be good against Grineer, Impact vs Corpus, Puncture + Impact against Corrupted and some corpus, Slash would be fine against anything but since its proc kills slower it would become a pleasant bonus, not the only useful physical element as it is now."

Edited March 17, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I'd really like to see this happen now. Physical damage with Bleed. Trade in all the IPS mods for a 90 and a 60/60 per weapon type that work like elementals. Dropping the preferential weighting kinda ended the special relevance of IPS distribution, and that relevance had literally become "how much of this is slash for the proc distribution" already, which just made Bleed Chance a third stat alongside Crit and Status. 

And there are certainly far too many elements, it'd just be hard to cut it down at this stage. Combining elements prevent having more than two elements on a weapon at a time and limit the possible combinations. You'd need some new factor to have similar effects, like heat and cold or electric and toxin canceling each other out and having a null proc instead or something.

At the risk of being too reductive, one could cut out composite elements entirely, roll whichever beneficial effects they have into what remains, and instead have all of our damage type mods convert a percentage of the damage we deal to one type or another, instead of having them add bonus damage. Example of the resulting damage/status system:

• Physical
  • Replaces: Impact, Puncture, Slash
  • Status - Slash: Deals damage over time to the target that stacks with subsequent applications.
• Cold:
  • Replaces: None
  • Status - Freeze: Slows the target's movement and attacks, with subsequent stacks increasing the slow. At maximum stacks, the target is instead frozen solid for the duration and stunned.
• Electricity:
  • Replaces: Magnetic, Radiation
  • Status - Shock: Sends chain lightning from the target to several others, damaging and briefly stunning them.
• Heat:
  • Replaces: Blast
  • Status - Burn: Sets the target on fire, dealing damage over time that stacks with subsequent applications, and also spreads to nearby targets.
• Toxin:
  • Replaces: Corrosive, Viral, Gas
  • Status - Poison: Increases damage taken by the target, stacking with subsequent applications.

To be honest, I'd personally go even further, do away with damage types and status, and instead make weapons and abilities apply their own utility and CC on a case-by-case basis as needed, though the above could at least be a way to condense what we have.

[CopperBezel]

I'm going to keep picking at this, but Slash procs are technically called the Bleed effect, so if there's no Slash damage it'd be Physical with Bleed, not Physical with Slash. = ] 

I know you like the whole power neutral thing and that's another topic, but you're raising two issues for build logic here. Well, three really? One of them is just the topic of this thread. 

First, converting damage by % would need a ceiling. Once you build to the cap, even if it's 100%, bigger numbers don't matter. So the distinction between +90% and 60/60 mods (or whatever numbers they actually had in practice) would need to be rethought completely, because "more damage" vs. "damage with status chance" wouldn't make sense as a trade, it'd always be in the latter's favor.  You'd need to balance your numbers carefully, because 60/60s vs. +90s is one of the few weapon build choices that actually matter right now and it'd be pretty awkward to lose. (And of course, changing damage types would have to matter an awful lot if it's competing with other means of directly increasing damage.)

Second, like I said, you need some means of limiting the number of damage types you can have on a weapon, because otherwise a rainbow build (a little of everything) will end up being more versatile. Again, I'd suggest making some elements just straight up incompatible, such that they'd prevent each other's procs, resulting in a null proc. That'd be whether or not we were using your neutral system. 

Third, you're just not taking this topic into account. You have a tidy continuum from pure CC Cold to pure damage Toxin, and I'm just unconvinced it'd work without changing the rest of the game to make CC weapon status viable. 

[Teridax68]

52 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I'm going to keep picking at this, but Slash procs are technically called the Bleed effect, so if there's no Slash damage it'd be Physical with Bleed, not Physical with Slash. = ] 

Given that what I'm suggesting is a total damage type and status system overhaul, I can call my proposed status effects whatever I like. You will notice that several of the other status effect names also differ from their current versions. Is nomenclature truly relevant to this discussion, let alone worth bringing up?

52 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I know you like the whole power neutral thing and that's another topic, but you're raising two issues for build logic here. Well, three really? One of them is just the topic of this thread. 

First, converting damage by % would need a ceiling. Once you build to the cap, even if it's 100%, bigger numbers don't matter. So the distinction between +90% and 60/60 mods (or whatever numbers they actually had in practice) would need to be rethought completely, because "more damage" vs. "damage with status chance" wouldn't make sense as a trade, it'd always be in the latter's favor.  You'd need to balance your numbers carefully, because 60/60s vs. +90s is one of the few weapon build choices that actually matter right now and it'd be pretty awkward to lose. (And of course, changing damage types would have to matter an awful lot if it's competing with other means of directly increasing damage.)

I feel to see the necessity in bringing up past disagreements on power neutrality when the system I am proposing is distinctly not power-neutral: I am not proposing to flatten the power of mods here, as those damage + status mods would still raise status chance, and +90% status mods would still exist. Given that the distinction in damage type would come purely from status, you would not in fact need pure elemental mods anymore, and the conversion numbers could always be adjusted as needed to accommodate the possibility of slotting in four separate mods.

52 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Second, like I said, you need some means of limiting the number of damage types you can have on a weapon, because otherwise a rainbow build (a little of everything) will end up being more versatile. Again, I'd suggest making some elements just straight up incompatible, such that they'd prevent each other's procs, resulting in a null proc. That'd be whether or not we were using your neutral system. 

My system proposes at most five separate damage types on the same weapon, which is no different from any current weapon with three or four elemental mods slotted on. Furthermore, the way status application works means that having a greater selection of status effects to apply means less reliability in applying the status effect you'd want. Thus, I would not consider your original suggestion necessary to my proposal.

52 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Third, you're just not taking this topic into account. You have a tidy continuum from pure CC Cold to pure damage Toxin, and I'm just unconvinced it'd work without changing the rest of the game to make CC weapon status viable. 

I fail to see how I would not be taking the topic into account when my proposed system has only one non-damaging status effect, while every single other has damage attached. As I already argued in a post further up, certain non-damaging status effects such as Cold do have the potential to be viable, if they were to work on powerful enemies that are currently immune to status. In fact, my suggestion builds on this by allowing the player to stun those enemies for some period of time after applying enough Cold status, which would certainly be desirable against the likes of, say, Kuva Liches.

[CopperBezel]

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Given that what I'm suggesting is a total damage type and status system overhaul, I can call my proposed status effects whatever I like. You will notice that several of the other status effect names also differ from their current versions. Is nomenclature truly relevant to this discussion, let alone worth bringing up?

Because just for a second I thought we could go ahead and try and approach this like a normal discussion topic without your hyperdefensiveness, and I'd like you to try and picture how other people would have responded to a similar suggestion? = /

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I feel to see the necessity in bringing up past disagreements on power neutrality when the system I am proposing is distinctly not power-neutral: I am not proposing to flatten the power of mods here, as those damage + status mods would still raise status chance, and +90% status mods would still exist. Given that the distinction in damage type would come purely from status, you would not in fact need pure elemental mods anymore, and the conversion numbers could always be adjusted as needed to accommodate the possibility of slotting in four separate mods.

There's a difference between complete neutrality and relative flattening. What you're suggesting is in fact a flattening. As I said, I was acknowledging that you like a more neutral system before talking about this flattening, it's - not an attack, man, context.

If you're removing damage types as a thing in terms of X element deals Y bonus damage to Z health, as you've clarified here, then you don't need to "convert" anything really, do you? The damage dealt is the same and status is an independent factor. All these mods are doing is increasing the chance of procs in a given type. You probably would want to rework the cards as +60% Poison chance, etc., but that could work.

And we're saying the same thing about the +90% mods, except that I'm saying I think it's a bad thing. If you want to maintain some amount of the build system, you're going to want to have some options. Again - I understand that we've talked about this before and neither of us really likes weapon builds as a thing, but in this context we're aiming to keep them and make them interesting, and I think you're removing degrees of freedom that could potentially make them so. 

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

My system proposes at most five separate damage types on the same weapon, which is no different from any current weapon with three or four elemental mods slotted on. Furthermore, the way status application works means that having a greater selection of status effects to apply means less reliability in applying the status effect you'd want. Thus, I would not consider your original suggestion necessary to my proposal.

Puncture and Impact are universally regarded as meaningless status effects. You can only meaningfully build for three status effects on a given weapon unless it has a combined elemental base damage component, and one of the three can only be Slash, and only if the weapon supports it. So a given weapon meaningfully supports two to four. This is meaningfully restrictive and prevents builds that would otherwise be viable or even overpowered, which means it's an element that's actually providing some mechanical depth. I wouldn't be so quick to toss it out. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by CopperBezel