Is enemy scaling bugged?

[protecttheplanet]

Hi,

 

I just did a 90min t5 fissure yesterday and my abilities and my weapons did the same damage against level 250 enemies as to level 60 enemies. 

The increased res booster felt nice as I was getting 100 kuva more each time but it didn't felt more rewarding as the enemies were too weak. Not sure if this came with the shield gating update or if it was always like this.

Now before you tell me "just stay 4 hours and see if you are still talking smack at level 1000 enemies" but really? Do we have to go this far for a challenge?

I feel like it should be harder. 

[DrBorris]

I disagree with the premise that more bullet-spongy enemies are more "challenging." The word I would use to describe that is tedious.

 

Edit: The enemy health, armor, and shield scaling equations were changed with the same update that changed status.

Edited March 22, 2020 by DrBorris

[DrivaMain]

Armor and Health no longer scales into infinity after reaching a certain level threshold. See -> https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

[protecttheplanet]

Gerade eben schrieb DrBorris:

I disagree with the premise that more bullet-spongy enemies are more "challenging." The word I would use to describe that is tedious.

At least it would make grinding for good gear feel rewarding because u can overcome even those enemies with it. But now I'm wondering if there will ever be bullet sponge that i wont be able to kill before it kills me.. 

[protecttheplanet]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb DrivaMain:

Armor and Health no longer scales into infinity after reaching a certain level threshold. See -> https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

Where does it end exactly?  I don't think its before level 240 which would explain the littlw challange I had. Making it unrealisticly high enough (think the edge of a Minecraft world) would be fine by me.

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, protecttheplanet said:

At least it would make grinding for good gear feel rewarding because u can overcome even those enemies with it. But now I'm wondering if there will ever be bullet sponge that i wont be able to kill before it kills me.. 

Again, overcoming insinuates that it is challenging. For me (and I believe many others) doing this content just isn't fun or challenging. We have our tools to beat it, but at the end of the day it is just braindead Lancer #4256, but now is more tedious to kill.

 

3 minutes ago, protecttheplanet said:

Where does it end exactly?  I don't think its before level 240 which would explain the littlw challange I had. Making it unrealisticly high enough (think the edge of a Minecraft world) would be fine by me.

I edited in a chart to my first comment that shows pretty well what is going on. If you like I can make one that goes up to a higher level, just ask.

Edited March 22, 2020 by DrBorris

[protecttheplanet]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb DrBorris:

Again, overcoming insinuates that it is challenging. For me (and I believe many others) doing this content just isn't fun or challenging. We have our tools to beat it, but at the end of the day it is just braindead Lancer #4256, but now is more tedious to kill.

 

I edited in a chart to my first comment that shows pretty well what is going on. If you like I can make one that goes up to a higher level, just ask.

Sure its not the best way to make it more challenging but do u really think it is cooler to have level 200 enemies 10 or 20 times weaker than before the update? I'm not sure if u either think an exponential scaling is not THE BEST way or not a.GOOD way. Because if u think its not a GOOD way then I really cant understand u at all. Id rather fight bullet spongy bombards after 90min than fight bombards that die after 2 hits after 90min.

Edited March 22, 2020 by protecttheplanet

[DrivaMain]

37 minutes ago, protecttheplanet said:

Sure its not the best way to make it more challenging but do u really think it is cooler to have level 200 enemies 10 or 20 times weaker than before the update? I'm not sure if u either think an exponential scaling is not THE BEST way or not a.GOOD way. Because if u think its not a GOOD way then I really cant understand u at all. Id rather fight bullet spongy bombards after 90min than fight bombards that die after 2 hits after 90min.

The scaling change is there to make Non Meta Weapons have a chance to shine. Also, bullet sponges are a cheap way to add “Difficulty” and the majority of the community wants it gone. 

[DrBorris]

32 minutes ago, protecttheplanet said:

Sure its not the best way to make it more challenging but do u really think it is cooler to have level 200 enemies 10 or 20 times weaker than before the update? I'm not sure if u either think an exponential scaling is not THE BEST way or not a.GOOD way. Because if u think its not a GOOD way then I really cant understand u at all. Id rather fight bullet spongy bombards after 90min than fight bombards that die after 2 hits after 90min.

I would rather be having fun after 90 minutes than... uh... not having fun. Warframe gameplay is supposed to feel a certain way, enemy design fits better when TTK is kept more consistent. If I want to for a longer run against higher level enemies, I don't want them to start behaving completely unlike what they were designed to be. A Lancer is just a Lancer, it shouldn't be a tank or a threat in general.

Enemies do still scale into infinity, but now you aren't being kicked out of a mission because the calculator broke and enemies have thousands of percent more effective health. If you choose to play an endurance mission you shouldn't be thrown into what feels like a completely different game where normal strategies are thrown out the window and you are pigeonholed into a few loadout options. I ran a 90 min Kuva Survival Fissure the other day and it felt great, my gear did not magically stop working and my weird armor-stripping Mag build was still fundamentally working. Enemies did start to push back, but it was gradual, not a brick wall.

 

I do think that some more "challenging" content should be added to the game, but it should be thoughtfully implemented, not just be a multiplier on base enemy stats. If an enemy is going to be tanky, it should make sense that they are tanky. If an enemy is going to suppress my loadout, I should have counterplay options besides changing my entire loadout. Request #52 to replace Eximus enemies with Arena enemies.

[Ham_Grenabe]

39 minutes ago, protecttheplanet said:

Sure its not the best way to make it more challenging but do u really think it is cooler to have level 200 enemies 10 or 20 times weaker than before the update? I'm not sure if u either think an exponential scaling is not THE BEST way or not a.GOOD way. Because if u think its not a GOOD way then I really cant understand u at all. Id rather fight bullet spongy bombards after 90min than fight bombards that die after 2 hits after 90min.

That’s the issue for me — I’m not doing anything different for those sponge-Bombards than for the 2-shot Bombards. They’re effectively identical, since I’d build to kill the spongiest enemy I can. 

[Tyreaus]

37 minutes ago, protecttheplanet said:

Sure its not the best way to make it more challenging but do u really think it is cooler to have level 200 enemies 10 or 20 times weaker than before the update? I'm not sure if u either think an exponential scaling is not THE BEST way or not a.GOOD way. Because if u think its not a GOOD way then I really cant understand u at all. Id rather fight bullet spongy bombards after 90min than fight bombards that die after 2 hits after 90min.

I think(-slash-hope) that the changes to enemy scaling are at least partly intended to couple with things like more dynamic enemy movements and patterns somewhere in the future. The sorts of things that enhance engagement but where extremely tanky enemies would make such encounters horrendous.

[Ikyr0]

If you look at that curve, you just have to go for a lot longer to reach similar bullet sponginess. 

I think DE is slowly moving away from endless content. I think (and hope) they will try to create challenge for the player through better enemy design.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, protecttheplanet said:

At least it would make grinding for good gear feel rewarding because u can overcome even those enemies with it. But now I'm wondering if there will ever be bullet sponge that i wont be able to kill before it kills me.. 

Well you get the same rewards regardless of level. So making the enemies harder to kill doesn’t really do much.

[GPrime96]

I really think the Health Scaling got affected by the Armor Scaling so anyone can reach over lvl 1K everyday. Really wonder if the Scaling on the Enemy’s durability (besides Armor Scaling) is unintended.  When i said reach over lvl 1K:

I'm serious.

Edited March 23, 2020 by GPrime96
Wanted to add something

[taiiat]

tl;ldr in general Enemies have 5-7x less EHP now.

 

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I disagree with the premise that more bullet-spongy enemies are more "challenging." The word I would use to describe that is tedious.

(sortof, though i think the adjustments should have made the turning point at ~lv100-125 rather than 75-80 like they did)

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

A Lancer is just a Lancer, it shouldn't be a tank or a threat in general.

when was it, anyways? Players have always modded vs Heavies/Specials because Trash Units die to whatever Damage you have by virtue of being so much weaker anyways.

Edited March 23, 2020 by taiiat

[TioMegaManX]

Speaking of bugged scaling, went for some bounties in Orb Vallis, Rank 2 bounty, Lv10 enemies, guarding the coildrive... it got destroyed within 20 seconds from stray fire alone, not even many enemies, this never happened before, on a side note when I was using Mag against middle level enemies not only my 2000+ shields were taken away in one hit, staying inside a magnetize bubble didn't stop enemies from stripping my shields and health off, so now the bubble is the same as the rift?

[protecttheplanet]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

Well you get the same rewards regardless of level. So making the enemies harder to kill doesn’t really do much.

No u get more drop chance booster, affinity booster and res booster at least in fissures.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb VanFanel1980mx:

Speaking of bugged scaling, went for some bounties in Orb Vallis, Rank 2 bounty, Lv10 enemies, guarding the coildrive... it got destroyed within 20 seconds from stray fire alone, not even many enemies, this never happened before, on a side note when I was using Mag against middle level enemies not only my 2000+ shields were taken away in one hit, staying inside a magnetize bubble didn't stop enemies from stripping my shields and health off, so now the bubble is the same as the rift?

This also happens at a single air support at kuva survival. 

[nslay]

Exo Elite Lancer would like a word with you... not the toughest of the Railjack units, but ridiculously tough especially compared to other Lancers and some of the other Railjack units.

 

[vegetosayajin]

13 hours ago, protecttheplanet said:

I just did a 90min t5 fissure yesterday and my abilities and my weapons did the same damage against level 250 enemies as to level 60 enemies. 

It's just means you have good builds, that's all.
Even with the changes to armour enemies have huge amount of armour at this level.
 

18 minutes ago, nslay said:

Exo Elite Lancer would like a word with you... not the toughest of the Railjack units, but ridiculously tough especially compared to other Lancers and some of the other Railjack units.

 

I still don't understand why people hype them up. I went to a vail mission to test this especially(before the scaling changes) and they die the same as normal enemies with e good build melee.

Edited March 23, 2020 by vegetosayajin

[Travis05]

Does enemy damage scale too? I mean since they dont want them to have better AI and bullet sponge is no an option....i think the only thing you can modify to add difficulty is damage. That or changing the missions. Things like capture are obsolete in my opinion

Edited March 23, 2020 by Travis05

[nslay]

48 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I still don't understand why people hype them up. I went to a vail mission to test this especially(before the scaling changes) and they die the same as normal enemies with e good build melee.

Because you can shoot them in the head a few times with the most powerful rifle in the game (Kuva Chakkhurr) and they'll still be clinging to life.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, protecttheplanet said:

No u get more drop chance booster, affinity booster and res booster at least in fissures.

Yeah, that’s only fissures. But the main thing you’re farming there is Prime parts.

[GPrime96]

 

4 hours ago, Travis05 said:

Does enemy damage scale too? I mean since they dont want them to have better AI and bullet sponge is no an option....i think the only thing you can modify to add difficulty is damage. 

Their damage is unaffected.

Edited March 23, 2020 by GPrime96

[Yamazuki]

3 hours ago, nslay said:

Because you can shoot them in the head a few times with the most powerful rifle in the game (Kuva Chakkhurr) and they'll still be clinging to life.

Are you using the weapon with no mods, or...? Even if they were level 170, it took 3 head shots, and mine has an impact bonus, and that's also with only 7 mods equipped. At level 90, their normal max level, one head shot almost kills it.

4 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

It's just means you have good builds, that's all.
Even with the changes to armour enemies have huge amount of armour at this level.
 

I still don't understand why people hype them up. I went to a vail mission to test this especially(before the scaling changes) and they die the same as normal enemies with e good build melee.

People were hyping them up since their release because they were shown as level 90, but had the durability of level 150 durable units. If you had any weapon that easily killed level 150-200 grineer, then veil units wouldn't be an issue, only the officer would have been for some primaries, but that was because any form of armor reduction didn't work before, which made corrosive/heat useless; although that got fixed after the changes.

[--END--Rikutatis]

18 hours ago, protecttheplanet said:

I just did a 90min t5 fissure yesterday and my abilities and my weapons did the same damage against level 250 enemies as to level 60 enemies. 

The increased res booster felt nice as I was getting 100 kuva more each time but it didn't felt more rewarding as the enemies were too weak. Not sure if this came with the shield gating update or if it was always like this.

Now before you tell me "just stay 4 hours and see if you are still talking smack at level 1000 enemies" but really? Do we have to go this far for a challenge?

I feel like it should be harder. 

Personally, I agree with you. But it's gone and most other people prefer it this way, so might as well get used to it. Endurance is pretty much dead now, or it's only a shell of what it used to be before. I watched a stream of some guys in an 8h survival killing level 9,999 enemies  without having to rely on any uber buffs or synergies, just cutting through them like butter. Enemy ehp now really doesn't matter anymore, which means stuff that used to be valuable before like infinitely scaling damage doesn't matter anymore. All you need to do is have a decently modded weapon and you'll kill any enemy level. Just build tanky now to resist enemy damage, no more need for anything else. It's actually kinda ridiculous the amount of overkill dps WF has now since the Revised update came out.