Status rework underwhelming

[zehne]

So before anyone starts saying QQ, I have to admit that the status rework was definitely a step in the right direction and I can't thank DE enough.

The problem I have is that the way status was executed made it look like we got a massive positive change but the reality of it is that many weapons/categories are left behind with how the status rework was implemented.

Basically the problem was; Status procs/weapons are too few/underwhelming.

So we get 100%+ status on weapons, which seems nice, but considering the number of weapons that can reach 100% without severly limiting them in other mods is not numerous, meaning most of the 100%+ status on weapons is mostly avoided since we still have to jam in damage, multi-shot and in some cases a full crit buffet in the mod slots.  Secondly, this problem is exasperated by the backward step DE took. Yay, we can now proc more status effects!!!  But then you come to find that viral stacks at 10, so does corrosive, etc.  Now all our weapons that have multi-shot and high status reach the cap near instantly, making further procs nigh worthless.  This means that many status based weapons are limited by the fact that the first 4 procs are worth more than the other 6.  This means that status higher than 100% and/or weapons with higher fire rate/multishot, etc hit a ceiling.

I understand that DE doesn't want certain status effects to go beyond a limit, but I feel serious ripped off when my first shot or two on a weapon with high fire rate can make an enemy take more damage but afterwards all subsequent shots are unrewarded. Meanwhile a weapon with lower fire-rate/status and higher crit/dmg/etc benefits more from status than the weapon where status is it's core stat.  That doesn't seem right.

So while exploring unlimited scaling and S-curves, maybe apply the same to status effects that currently have cap limits.  That way weapons can at least benefit some from additional procs instead of hard capping.  Either way the stacks have timers, so even if stacks 20-50 only net you 15% additional armor strip the status procs still do something other than refreshing.

the tl;dr

Why go through the effort of adding in >100% status and changing status if it still favors non-status heavy builds?

 

EDIT:

Also alot of the procs need to be considered for what they are good for.  For example Viral is good in all instances, everything has HP.  Magnetic...  No-one really cares much about radiation procs, enemies deal little to no damage.  Whether it's 1 or 10 stacks of radiation, we really don't care.  The only thing radiation is really good for breaking ancients links.  So we only care about 1 rad proc.  Corrosive caps out and is weighted at the first, heat does it's armor strip regardless of stacks, etc.

Basically, most the status effects go unrewarded for additional stacks/procs or they are hevily weight twords the 1st proc for what they do, making high status builds unrewarding.  Also to point out, this makes balancing weapons a nightmare since you (DE) can balance a weapons damage/crit/crit damage fairly easily but when it comes to status, where is the 'cliff' ? 15% status vs 20% may be a huge difference compared to 20% vs 50%.  Status atm is mostly still a "gots enough' model with the exception of *gasp* slash heavy status weapons.

Edited April 9, 2020 by zehne

[0_The_F00l]

Hmmm , i do not face this issue.

Not all weapons are made equally ,

that is why build variety (small as it may be due to the meta options) has changed.

I personally feel status is fine where it is (some tweaking on some numbers for specific status could be better , but nothing drastic)

what needs change is the rest of the mandatory mods.

Edited April 9, 2020 by 0_The_F00l

[trst]

From my understanding the whole reason it was suggested and implemented was so that the weapons which could have gotten 100%+ actually benefited from it and so that it was consistent with 100%+ crit chance. It wasn't really for the purpose of having most status builds reach 100%+.

Also Viral + Hunters Munitions is still a thing and arguably stronger than ever. And even without Munitions just Viral paired with the armor changes is strong enough for most if not all content on it's own. So there is still a spot for status heavy builds but hybrid is still the strongest.

[vegetosayajin]

I can sum up the update shortly from my observations and testing.
Before: corrosive and viral were kings, with gas closely following.
Now: viral is kind and corrosive sometimes.
Most shotguns are good or better, boar prime is dead.
Viral+slash melee was the strongest before, it's the strongest now.
tl;dr there are less build possibilities now then before
P.S. : if by any chance de reads: viral doesn't need a nerf, the others need a buff

Edited April 9, 2020 by vegetosayajin

[taiiat]

31 minutes ago, trst said:

From my understanding the whole reason it was suggested and implemented was so that the weapons which could have gotten 100%+ actually benefited from it

in theory, though the Weapons that would've benefitted the most from that mostly were nerfed in the process, and some Status Effects even being nerfed in the process of adding stacking - making for an even higher need of extreme Status for some Status Effects than before in order to go a primarily Status route.

[zehne]

15 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I can sum up the update shortly from my observations and testing.
Before: corrosive and viral were kings, with gas closely following.
Now: viral is kind and corrosive sometimes.
Most shotguns are good or better, boar prime is dead.
Viral+slash melee was the strongest before, it's the strongest now.
tl;dr there are less build possibilities now then before
P.S. : if by any chance de reads: viral doesn't need a nerf, the others need a buff

From all my testing with different weapons and things i've found this to be true and modding weapons isn't easy for min/maxxing because of how the status works and caps, etc.

For example with a weapon normally corrosive and heat or viral and heat is a good combo.  But then you get an innate corrosive/viral weapon and suddenly the best combo is corrosive + viral.  Great you think, now I can just slap on a ton of heat damage and i'm good!!!

NOPE, slap on say primed heated charge and while the weapon shows a huge boost in damage numbers the overall effect is 'meh'.  Why?  Status dilution.  Now instead of getting a good mixture of armor strip from corrosive and health damage boost from viral you get armor strip to health in a 3:1 ratio or 4:1 ratio instead of a ~~3:2 ratio for status procs.

For maximum effect you want not just the right amount of status, multishot and damage types, but alos the right proportions.  Adding too much or adding additional categories actually hurts your damage.  If I took a status weapon with an empty mod slot and tested it, then put an impact or puncture mod in that slot, or cold/toxin as a stand-alone element my overall damage could be lower because of how status currently works.

[JohnKable]

i think the status rework is overall very positive
the 100%+ thing was just for consistency more than anything else, its not that they intended most weapons to have over 100% status.

Most statuses now are VERY powerful, there will always be a couple with a clear edge on the others but the majority of statuses are very functional now.

The only big oversight for me, is that some status are just too slow in their effect. More damage  is of course the most effective thing in a horde shooter, that's why viral, slash, fire and corrosive are the most used!   I think the "utility"  statuses should be much more effective with less procs: Cold should start at 50% slow and cap at 80% at the third proc, or impact should open to finishers much sooner (its worthlessly convoluted right now)
If they can balance right the utility statuses, probalby people will always like more the damaging ones BUT there is much more fun and effectiveness for those who like it in a different way. Rhight now its just not worth it to go for any kind of status that does not grant additional damage in some way.

But i think they done something right and its really close to being a good status system

- and if you ask me, i would really like that element combos existed, i give you an example: an impact proc on a frozen enemy smashes it into pieces regardless of its level

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hmmm , i do not face this issue.

Not all weapons are made equally ,

that is why build variety (small as it may be due to the meta options) has changed.

I personally feel status is fine where it is (some tweaking on some numbers for specific status could be better , but nothing drastic)

what needs change is the rest of the mandatory mods.

This^.  Tie the mandatory damage mod into the level/innate MR lvl perk of the weapon.

[MPonder]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

This^.  Tie the mandatory damage mod into the level/innate MR lvl perk of the weapon.

What you smoked

[(PSN)O_o_II_II_o_O]

1 hour ago, vegetosayajin said:

I can sum up the update shortly from my observations and testing.
Before: corrosive and viral were kings, with gas closely following.
Now: viral is kind and corrosive sometimes.
Most shotguns are good or better, boar prime is dead.
Viral+slash melee was the strongest before, it's the strongest now.
tl;dr there are less build possibilities now then before
P.S. : if by any chance de reads: viral doesn't need a nerf, the others need a buff

This in a nutshell. I would use all three elemental types depending on the weapon. I actually enjoyed gas the most and used it effectively v armour. It would require some investment (-ips rivens with toxin to boost proc weight when ips was 4x) aswell as bane mods, but it actually created more build diversity for me. Unfortunately gas was nerfed mainly due to its effectiveness in ignoring corpus shields, which could have been solved by simply requiring 10 stacks to break through them. Thus not completely ruining gas as a damage type, including its aoe. 

Now although corrosive still has its uses, it's certainly less effective after status changes (shotguns mainly) and 9/10 you are simply better off going viral or viral HM. DE's lack of willingness to attempt to balance overall is sad, they are just more happy to leave stuff on the junk pile and install what feels like a quick fix. I'd rather they spent more time on balancing alot overall then releasing new content which in itself is lacklustre.

[nslay]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hmmm , i do not face this issue.

Not all weapons are made equally ,

that is why build variety (small as it may be due to the meta options) has changed.

I personally feel status is fine where it is (some tweaking on some numbers for specific status could be better , but nothing drastic)

what needs change is the rest of the mandatory mods.

Shotguns and certain shotgun-like pistols are made vastly inferior to all the rest. There are a few exceptions, but they are mostly awful now.

What do you mean the rest of the mandatory mods needs changing? Do you mean that these are under/overtuned? Or do you mean something completely illusory as build diversity? If you meant the latter, I'm pretty sure you don't want a fix. The result would be very boring mods for players. Consider that to have multiple optimal builds purely through mods would imply mods are similar in effect or only purely for utility. I think DE having systems like crit/status and damage types and faction damage bonuses/penalties is a far more interesting way to promote some build diversity than tweaking mandatory mods.

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

What do you mean the rest of the mandatory mods needs changing? Do you mean that these are under/overtuned? Or do you mean something completely illusory as build diversity? If you meant the latter, I'm pretty sure you don't want a fix. The result would be very boring mods for players. Consider that to have multiple optimal builds purely through mods would imply mods are similar in effect or only purely for utility. I think DE having systems like crit/status and damage types and faction damage bonuses/penalties is a far more interesting way to promote some build diversity than tweaking mandatory mods.

This post of mine might shed some light on what i mean i do not wish to type all of that again , maybe you will get more insights from the overall conversation as well.

 

[zehne]

Okay, so I did some testing.

• Tysis
  • Innate Corrosive
  • High status
  • Low crit (RNG mitigated during testing)
• Heavy Gunners Lvl 150
  • Corrosive matters
  • Representation of 'Veteran' commonly encountered enemies
    • High enough that differences show up better
    • TTK is low enough that procs don't expire during trials (always stacking, never losing)

Spoiler

So from the above you can look at it in several ways.  From a maximum dps/lowest TTK stance, you want the mod combo that has the lowest shots possible with the amount of mod slots remaining.  In this example there was Hornet + Magnum + Dmg/Punch-through riven during testing.  So adding in barrel diffusion and lethal torrent leaves a build with 3 mod slots available.  So the best mod combo is: Viral/Heat or shockingly, viral/slash.

Like wtf?  Even though the tysis has a low slash damage% and super high status chance, a 120% slash mod is just as good as a 60/60 fire/status mod (at least for this test) when it comes to a 3rd option.

Also, look.  4+ mods (Elec,Punc, Impact(implied), etc) are less dps than 3 mods (Heat,slash).  How can you justify the status system if it makes ADDING DAMAGE MODS LOWERS DPS

Look again too.  Going from Viral/Heat with a total% of 280% Damage to Viral/Heat with a 445% total% barely effects the TTK.  Primed heated charge is worth 2-3 other mods but had nearly no positive effect on damage.  Looking at the weapon stat page the damage was nearly 1.6x higher but in reality it only performed ~~9% better.  DE, you are working on making the UI friendlier to 'casuals' by making the weapon stat page show more information, what good does that do if the numbers do not reflect reality?

Look again, again.  Viral (60/60 + 60/60) + Status (90%) is outperformed by viral (60/60 + 60/60) + 120% Slash.  The weapon is low on slash and super high on status, but a slash mod performs better than the status mod.

This is why I think status needs to be looked at again.

[MPonder]

Which content would all this status changed be used/worth to use again?

[zehne]

2 hours ago, MPonder said:

Which content would all this status changed be used/worth to use again?

Regardless of your comment:

• Equipping Damage mod (serration, etc) Increases your damage output
• Equipping Crit chance mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping Crit Damage mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping Status mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping fire rate mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping multishot mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping IPS/Elemental mod sometimes lowers your damage output

One of these things is not like the others.  Considering that the IPS/Elemental mods have 'Damage' in their description, always increasing damage should be a thing.  The sole reason for this is how status works.

I have a crazy (maybe not so crazy) idea of how status could be 'fixed', make status effects damage based. I.e. enemies need to take X fire/tox/etc damage to be procced. Instead of status chance we have status potency.  So if an enemy needs 100 fire damage to proc fire and your weapon does 100 fire damage but has a status potency of 50%, it'll take 2 shots to trigger a fire proc.  If your weapon has a 10% potency you need to deal 1000 fire damage to trigger a proc.  In this manner you would fix 'diluting status procs' which then fixes the issue with lowering dps because you added more damage mods.  In this new fashion you would only add more procs instead of redistributing their probabilities.  Also, it would lessen the RNG.  Of course the biggest issue with this is weapon damage based damage procs, but you'd just need to rescale the damage calc based on X number of procs on target.  Also, this would make it so that balancing for DE is easier.  Procs could reliably then be factored into the 'dps' a weapon does so that when making up numbers for a weapon it isn't secretly OP or under-powered because status was 5% too high/low.

It would for the most part work nearly the same as now if the 'proc health' of enemies is balanced right the key difference being that you'd never end up doing less damage because you added an IPS mod.  Only less damage if you built the wrong elements(+ element to a - element like going from a single heat mod to heat + elec when fighting infested).

Edited April 9, 2020 by zehne

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

On 2020-04-09 at 10:41 AM, zehne said:

Regardless of your comment:

• Equipping Damage mod (serration, etc) Increases your damage output
• Equipping Crit chance mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping Crit Damage mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping Status mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping fire rate mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping multishot mod Increases your damage output
• Equipping IPS/Elemental mod sometimes lowers your damage output

One of these things is not like the others.  Considering that the IPS/Elemental mods have 'Damage' in their description, always increasing damage should be a thing.  The sole reason for this is how status works.

I have a crazy (maybe not so crazy) idea of how status could be 'fixed', make status effects damage based. I.e. enemies need to take X fire/tox/etc damage to be procced. Instead of status chance we have status potency.  So if an enemy needs 100 fire damage to proc fire and your weapon does 100 fire damage but has a status potency of 50%, it'll take 2 shots to trigger a fire proc.  If your weapon has a 10% potency you need to deal 1000 fire damage to trigger a proc.  In this manner you would fix 'diluting status procs' which then fixes the issue with lowering dps because you added more damage mods.  In this new fashion you would only add more procs instead of redistributing their probabilities.  Also, it would lessen the RNG.  Of course the biggest issue with this is weapon damage based damage procs, but you'd just need to rescale the damage calc based on X number of procs on target.  Also, this would make it so that balancing for DE is easier.  Procs could reliably then be factored into the 'dps' a weapon does so that when making up numbers for a weapon it isn't secretly OP or under-powered because status was 5% too high/low.

It would for the most part work nearly the same as now if the 'proc health' of enemies is balanced right the key difference being that you'd never end up doing less damage because you added an IPS mod.  Only less damage if you built the wrong elements(+ element to a - element like going from a single heat mod to heat + elec when fighting infested).

Yes, diluting the status procs can lower your DPS if you get less Slash. That's the same issue of -Impact and -Puncture Rivens increasing DPS by concentrating the status procs onto your elements and Slash. That's why Hunter Munitions is so strong despite it not giving you any upfront +%damage.

Bleed is heads and shoulders above all of the procs and Viral synergies with everything.

Still, that isn't the only case where adding more Elemental mods, lowers your damage. A lot of new players used to throw on all the elemental mods they could get and build for Corrosive/Blast, ignoring the fact that Blast has a double dipping negative armor modifier against Ferrite and competed with Corrosive procs. It's why 60/60 mods are generally better than the 90% elemental mods despite giving less upfront damage. I still remember Leyzar's video where slapping on a +120% Puncture mod (Piercing Caliber) onto the Dera Vandal lowered TTK by preventing over-strip.

It's good that slapping more damage doesn't necessarily give you faster TTK and that not all weapons can be optimized using the same build even if the mathematically optimal build isn't intuitive and defies our natural common sense. A common complaint about Warframe's modding system is that there wasn't any reason not to put on more damage and mandatory mods, but with status, it isn't necessarily true.

Though, I do agree that after the changes procs that aren't Slash or Viral are pretty worthless.

Though that isn't the only thing broken with Damage 2.0. The fact that armor-class modifiers double dip is another thing that isn't obvious. It was the reason why Corpus with their Puncture weapons seemed to be doing 4x as much damage to us than Grineer with their Impact, because they were when Warframes had Ferrite armor not too long ago.

IPS mods do not work like Elemental mods despite being described the same, but if they did, everyone would just slap on Slash.

The IPS mods are underpowered and niche, especially the bronze +30% IPS mods. The common IPS mods all need to be bumped up to 90% to match melee.

If they were like Blaze, where they gave both +%Base damage and +% Element, then it would open up some interesting modding decisions in that it would be competing with both Serration and Elemental mods. The same problem that arises with the 60/60 elemental VS 90% elemental.

 

Another idea is that they could add "Overstatus" DOT when we go past the initial cap of 10 where it just deals %150 of our Elemental damage for that type on proc?

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2020-04-09 at 1:22 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Hmmm , i do not face this issue.

Not all weapons are made equally ,

that is why build variety (small as it may be due to the meta options) has changed.

I personally feel status is fine where it is (some tweaking on some numbers for specific status could be better , but nothing drastic)

what needs change is the rest of the mandatory mods.

For the most part yes, but I'd have to say some Procs that require drastic changes are Impact, Blast and Radiation. I'll have to experiment more with Gas to see how it functions after the changes, but considering that Viral is absolutely dominating the enemy type it's supposed to not be good against, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Mandatory mods are quite a hard thing to deal with, for certain. You can take out base damage Mods and implement them into the weapons base stats, and then people are just going to pile on more damage. Maybe DE needs to change how some Mods interact, which are allowed together, etc. I'm afraid whatever changes DE makes going forward are probably going to include some limitations to increase the diversity of our builds. Hopefully DE will just combine some Mods together, so you can consolidate, like making Crit Mods just include CC and CD together. At least that way we can get rid of a few in the growing mountain of Mods we have.

Personally? I'd just nerf a lot of our Mod values and have most of those buffs in the weapons stats at base, so instead of 220% CC, you're seeing more like 50% CC from a single Mod, but now your gun has 80% CC right off the bat. Giving our guns Exilus slots was also a nice way to give us some variety, so who knows, maybe we can get Arcanes just for our guns or something. It's all up in the air really.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by (XB1)Graysmog

[zehne]

1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Still, that isn't the only case where adding more Elemental mods, lowers your damage. A lot of new players used to throw on all the elemental mods they could get and build for Corrosive/Blast, ignoring the fact that Blast has a double dipping negative armor modifier against Ferrite and competed with Corrosive procs. It's why 60/60 mods are generally better than the 90% elemental mods despite giving less upfront damage. I still remember Leyzar's video where slapping on a +120% Puncture mod (Piercing Caliber) onto the Dera Vandal lowered TTK by preventing over-strip.

Right, but it's the severity of it too.

Going from 3 60/60's to 3 60/60's + Primed heated saw a negligible effect on TTK despite nearly doubling the damage of the weapon on the stats page.  Status should be reworked in a fashion so that this isn't an issue, or at least so that this isn't nearly as bad.

Before DE steps forward on balancing enemies DE should take steps to balance procs so that our damage output is more consistent.  From there they could then get a more accurate read on what needs to be done with enemies.  If DE 'balances' enemies and then tries to balance weapons they'll end up having to balance enemies again.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

3 minutes ago, zehne said:

Right, but it's the severity of it too.

Going from 3 60/60's to 3 60/60's + Primed heated saw a negligible effect on TTK despite nearly doubling the damage of the weapon on the stats page.  Status should be reworked in a fashion so that this isn't an issue, or at least so that this isn't nearly as bad.

Before DE steps forward on balancing enemies DE should take steps to balance procs so that our damage output is more consistent.  From there they could then get a more accurate read on what needs to be done with enemies.  If DE 'balances' enemies and then tries to balance weapons they'll end up having to balance enemies again.

As it should be. It's proof that the complaints about lack of space for Exilus mods is moot. Proof that the optimal build is not just slapping as much damage as you can.

Proc pool dilution is an important factor in builds, but so are enemy resistances.

The double dipping nature of armor-class modifiers is why building for a bit more Radiation is better than putting on Primed Cryo Rounds when Eidolon Hunting. A +60% of Heat or Electric nets you more damage than +165% Cold. In the case of Eidolons, Radiation triple dips against them as they have Robotic Health.

 

[zehne]

2 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

As it should be. It's proof that the complaints about lack of space for Exilus mods is moot. Proof that the optimal build is not just slapping as much damage as you can.

This is where I disagree.  When you already have corr + viral + heat on a weapon, add + 165% more heat damage shouldn't have such a small effect.  To be clear, the reason why it has a small effect is because of the dillution of other procs, not because of damage.

Every other mod type, crit, multishot, base dmg, etc., if you add X amount and see it on the stat screen it adds X amount.

I'm not arguing the way the system works, i'm arguing that the way it works is not intuitive/ is deceiving.  To that effect it'd be nice to have the system reworked or changed in a fashion so that this isn't the case, or if it stays the same, something that'll at least explain on the stats page the status chances.

But seeing how statuses are very much dominated by some types and others are completely neglected I think the best solution would be to change the existing system.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

19 minutes ago, zehne said:

This is where I disagree.  When you already have corr + viral + heat on a weapon, add + 165% more heat damage shouldn't have such a small effect.  To be clear, the reason why it has a small effect is because of the dillution of other procs, not because of damage.

Every other mod type, crit, multishot, base dmg, etc., if you add X amount and see it on the stat screen it adds X amount.

I'm not arguing the way the system works, i'm arguing that the way it works is not intuitive/ is deceiving.  To that effect it'd be nice to have the system reworked or changed in a fashion so that this isn't the case, or if it stays the same, something that'll at least explain on the stats page the status chances.

But seeing how statuses are very much dominated by some types and others are completely neglected I think the best solution would be to change the existing system.

I'm well aware that the issue is the dilution of other procs for your Tysis example. I'm just pointing out that status isn't the only place where something deceiving like that arises. 

Just as how statuses are dominated by some types (Viral, Slash), raw damage is also dominated by armor class-modifiers (Corrosive, Radiation).

Puncture has a +50% against Ferrite, but that bonus double dips.

Against a sortie level Heavy Gunner with 6000 armor (95% Damage Reduction):

100 neutral damage would deal 5 damage.

100 Puncture which treats armor as 3000 (91% Damage Reduction) with a 1.5x multiplier would deal 13.5. Almost 3X as much damage as neutral.

100 Corrosive which treats armor as 1500 (83.3% Damage Reduction) with a 1.75x multiplier would deal 29. Almost 6X as much as neutral.

This ridiculous mechanic is really the only reason why Corrosive still remains viable despite having its proc nerfed and why we bring it for Status Immune enemies like the Condrix.

From this, it can be concluded that our damage and status systems were already broken from the very beginning for years and we need Damage 3.0.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[Chaemyerelis]

Status rework just shifted the meta to viral for the most part 🙁

[kwlingo]

This allows each weapon to be built differently. Before update it was only Crit builds. Now we have some weapons that are Status, some that are Crits and some that can go Hybrid. Some weapons that were OP before are now leveled out due to the status changes which is great. Today you will see so many different weapons from primary, secondary, and melee. Back then it was alway the top 3-5 weapons because the rest could do any damage compared to those few top weapons.

[zehne]

48 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

This allows each weapon to be built differently. Before update it was only Crit builds. Now we have some weapons that are Status, some that are Crits and some that can go Hybrid. Some weapons that were OP before are now leveled out due to the status changes which is great. Today you will see so many different weapons from primary, secondary, and melee. Back then it was alway the top 3-5 weapons because the rest could do any damage compared to those few top weapons.

The update did help alot of weapons, not arguing that.  But it did a good job showing a glaring problem with how the system currently works.

3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

100 neutral damage would deal 5 damage.

100 Puncture which treats armor as 3000 (91% Damage Reduction) with a 1.5x multiplier would deal 13.5. Almost 3X as much damage as neutral.

100 Corrosive which treats armor as 1500 (83.3% Damage Reduction) with a 1.75x multiplier would deal 29. Almost 6X as much as neutral..

...

we need Damage 3.0.

 

4 hours ago, zehne said:

Going from 3 60/60's to 3 60/60's + Primed heated saw a negligible effect on TTK despite nearly doubling the damage of the weapon on the stats page.

Yes we have plenty of weapons that can perform well and I certainly have no problem killing things.  The problem I have is that it is infuriating to build weapons and/or re-roll rivens when it means that what might look like a good thing is actually pretty bad.

Rivens are already RNG, but a -impact or -puncture riven is really just a way of saying a +4 stat riven with extra power because sometimes if we had a mod that gave -impact or -puncture we'd equip it in a heartbeat.