Steel Essence Unaffected by Resource Drop Chance Boosters

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, markus230 said:

Or DE could just make Steel Essence table roll 100% of the time with the drop chance being 2%. Bang, fixed. No need for any changes to the drop system. Though they probably should change it either way so that it is consistent across all resource drop tables.

Just because DE is inconsistent with it isn't an excuse. How are we supposed to know if the drop chance booster works if DE doesn't tell us? I assume that by default it should work unless stated otherwise. With Steel Essence, the only way to find out is by spending money on the boosters and tracking how much Essence drops you get. And sample size of one isn't good enough for statistics, so multiple people have to spend money on boosters just to figure out if they even work or not. (site with drop tables still doesn't contain information about Steel Essence)

It does roll 100% of the time already. The thing that should change is actually pigments, since it is the only inconsistant part of the system in some of the pigment cases. Otherwise RJ resources and Steel Essence follow the rules of Oxium and dropped kuva.

They should have explained it, that is for sure, like they did with RJ resources.

[markus230]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It does roll 100% of the time already.

Well, earlier you've said that drop chance booster works inside the tables, so then it should just double the odds of dropping essence.

DE should just add resources to the codex, and place the information about interactions with the boosters there. So the next time a new resource is introduced, we can go into the codex and just look up where it drops, and the sources could have booster interactions listed next to them.

Resource X drops from:

Enemy Y: Affected by boosters A and B

Mission Z: Affected by booster B

etc. (To save on screen space, it could just have booster icons next to the sources)

[Marr]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It does roll 100% of the time already. The thing that should change is actually pigments, since it is the only inconsistant part of the system in some of the pigment cases. Otherwise RJ resources and Steel Essence follow the rules of Oxium and dropped kuva.

They should have explained it, that is for sure, like they did with RJ resources.

Do you know what the word double means?

[Marr]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Sir, that, even with my bad English, means for me how the Steel Essence drops and not what kind of drop it is, which is described in sentence before. It’s some kind of warning: Check every loot because you can easily overlook it.

The Resource Booster doubles the amount of resources earned from pickups.

Resources are items that are obtained in any mission around the Star Chart and can have multiple uses depending on the type of Resource; most of them however are used solely for the manufacturing of other items in the Foundry with Blueprints.

I'm not sure what the confusion is. They're a resource, they are affected by a booster. The end.

[Voltage]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Resource > Currency, until first Item which will need Steel Essence for build, what will probably never happen, Steel Essence will stay as a Currency.

I guess Credits aren't a currency because they are crafted in almost every blueprint in the entire game. It would be just as silly to say "Credits should be affected by a resource booster because they are a resource used for crafting and not a currency".

[(PSN)Onder6099]

32 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I guess Credits aren't a currency because they are crafted in almost every blueprint in the entire game. It would be just as silly to say "Credits should be affected by a resource booster because they are a resource used for crafting and not a currency".

Complain about Credit booster not works on Steel Essence will be more logical. This is just another fight against windmills. I just tried to explain how this and that Booster works because lot of players here don’t even know about basics. I’m giving up in hope that there are few players which took lesson from these Topic. Good luck.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, markus230 said:

Well, earlier you've said that drop chance booster works inside the tables, so then it should just double the odds of dropping essence.

DE should just add resources to the codex, and place the information about interactions with the boosters there. So the next time a new resource is introduced, we can go into the codex and just look up where it drops, and the sources could have booster interactions listed next to them.

Resource X drops from:

Enemy Y: Affected by boosters A and B

Mission Z: Affected by booster B

etc. (To save on screen space, it could just have booster icons next to the sources)

It is designed specifically that way though, that is why the booster doesnt apply since it is pre-balanced around a max yield. So if it gets moved or suddenly effected by the booster with in its guaranteed table, prepare for a nerf to the base drop rate. Which would suddenly force people to pick up a booster get back to the current drop rate. This isnt a new mechanic, it has been with the game since Oxium and then with demo kuva, followed by RJ resources and now essence.

The chance booster currently only applies to things that no not have a guaranteed roll, the rest are balanced individually to a set %. But yeah, better explaination would be needed.

6 hours ago, Dragon.DT said:

Do you know what the word double means?

What are you talking about or refering to?

We are discussing resource chance boosters, not resource boosters. 

[Trvldl]

Reminder, that if orange resource booster works and rollchance is below 100% then blue resource dropchance booster must work, otherwise it's considered broken or a concealment on DE's part. Steel essence is actually a resource and even appears in inventory under resources tab, unlike currencies that have separate UI counters. It's neither an object that you need to interact with to pick up, nor it is a mission reward that directly appears in inventory, but an actual enemy drop.

It should become affected by blue booster unless it will be made to drop on every eximus kill, like oxium or kuva dropping from specific enemies on every kill. Perhaps it should also be made clear which booster affects what with a few markers in resource descriptions.

[Marr]

On 2020-07-23 at 9:30 PM, SneakyErvin said:

You use all the other stuff to craft with, that isnt the case for Steel Essence.

Also, do some math regarding it. A booster wouldnt do anything for Steel Essence since it would have the same % chance to drop in relation to other mats since it would share tables with them. All it would do is up the total % for everything, so instead of having say 100% covered where steel essence would take up 2%, we'd sit at 200% where steel essence takes up 4%, the result would still be the same, with a 2% outcome for steel essence to drop. Unless you want special treatment for it in a seperate category that still uses the resource chance booster, which would be a bit dishonest since if it is a resource that can benefit from the booster it should be part of the resource drop table.

 

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is designed specifically that way though, that is why the booster doesnt apply since it is pre-balanced around a max yield. So if it gets moved or suddenly effected by the booster with in its guaranteed table, prepare for a nerf to the base drop rate. Which would suddenly force people to pick up a booster get back to the current drop rate. This isnt a new mechanic, it has been with the game since Oxium and then with demo kuva, followed by RJ resources and now essence.

The chance booster currently only applies to things that no not have a guaranteed roll, the rest are balanced individually to a set %. But yeah, better explaination would be needed.

What are you talking about or refering to?

We are discussing resource chance boosters, not resource boosters. 

The Resource Drop Chance Booster doubles the chance of resource drops. So my question stands. While the proportion does not change, because that is how percentages work and the drop chance is a multiplier and not additive. Do you understand what doubling means? The effective drop rate of steel essence should be doubled given that it now has the chance to roll twice as often as it did before.

Even given a completely lay person example. If I kill 200 enemies, and every second enemy drops something and the drop rate of steel essence is 1%. This means I should get 1 steel essence in that 200 enemy pack. Under a resource drop booster that every enemy would drop something. The actual drop chance of steel essence has not been affected as it is still 1% but I am not getting 2 steel essence in a pack of 200 enemies. Therefore the steel essence is doubled

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Dragon.DT said:

 

The Resource Drop Chance Booster doubles the chance of resource drops. So my question stands. While the proportion does not change, because that is how percentages work and the drop chance is a multiplier and not additive. Do you understand what doubling means? The effective drop rate of steel essence should be doubled given that it now has the chance to roll twice as often as it did before.

Even given a completely lay person example. If I kill 200 enemies, and every second enemy drops something and the drop rate of steel essence is 1%. This means I should get 1 steel essence in that 200 enemy pack. Under a resource drop booster that every enemy would drop something. The actual drop chance of steel essence has not been affected as it is still 1% but I am not getting 2 steel essence in a pack of 200 enemies. Therefore the steel essence is doubled

But that booster doesnt affect guaranteed rolls, never has, except for pigments since they comes both guaranteed and not (likely based on pigment rarity). 

I'm fully aware of what it would do if it was ment to work on these drops, but essence like other drops are tailored to a specific guaranteed category that doesnt benefit from that booster, so people as for something that was never intended. So either people have to accept essence getting moved to a regular table and be bound to not being a guaranteed roll, but with an increased chance if a roll happens and you have a booster. Practically nerfing unboosted farming.

So I'm quite fine with how it is now since it doesnt matter if you boost or not, or run dark sectors for that matter.

[Marr]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that booster doesnt affect guaranteed rolls, never has, except for pigments since they comes both guaranteed and not (likely based on pigment rarity). 

I'm fully aware of what it would do if it was ment to work on these drops, but essence like other drops are tailored to a specific guaranteed category that doesnt benefit from that booster, so people as for something that was never intended. So either people have to accept essence getting moved to a regular table and be bound to not being a guaranteed roll, but with an increased chance if a roll happens and you have a booster. Practically nerfing unboosted farming.

So I'm quite fine with how it is now since it doesnt matter if you boost or not, or run dark sectors for that matter.

You're just inventing a problem to another problem. If DE wants to create a new class of resource they can, but that needs to be explicitly stated. It was labeled a resource in the dev post, if they want to make a post clarifying their position it needs to be put in game. There is no indication that the game SHOULD work like this as pigments aren't consistent either. DE can either create a new class, or enable drop boosters to work on steel essence, but right now, they are engaging in deceptive business practices.

What defines a deceptive business practice, DE meets all three of its requirements.

1. whether the representation, omission or practice is likely to mislead,
2. the reasonableness of the practice from the perspective of a consumer or group of consumers, and
3. the materiality of the act or practice, which involves analyzing whether the act or practice is likely to influence or otherwise “affect the consumer’s conduct or decision with regard to a product or service,” resulting in likely injury.

 

[notlamprey]

35 minutes ago, Dragon.DT said:

What defines a deceptive business practice, DE meets all three of its requirements.

1. whether the representation, omission or practice is likely to mislead,
2. the reasonableness of the practice from the perspective of a consumer or group of consumers, and
3. the materiality of the act or practice, which involves analyzing whether the act or practice is likely to influence or otherwise “affect the consumer’s conduct or decision with regard to a product or service,” resulting in likely injury.

 

Just for informational purposes, this is the Federal Trade Commission's three-factor test.

I don't have an exhaustive understanding of exactly what FTC regs DE is required to comply with (if any), and the process of properly researching it is pretty laborious if I'm being honest. This gets further complicated by the fact that any complaints would have to allege with specificity the violation that is occurring.

Because DE isn't explicitly and affirmatively advertising/marketing these boosters in the way we traditionally think of products being marketed, it becomes a matter of nailing down that 1st factor. I think it's pretty easy to make the case that DE is making an omission that is likely to mislead, based on an established practice of how boosters work. Making the strongest case possible on the 1st factor is a must IMO, even if it seems like a slam dunk. It sets the tone for the other two factors and you should always hammer on your strongest point.

For the purposes of the 2nd factor, a "consumer or group of consumers" doesn't have to be limited to the people who are interested in or play Warframe. It's meant to be construed broadly by design, meaning that any sufficiently large group of consumers objecting to this practice as unreasonable would satisfy the 2nd factor. How someone would go about establishing that group is up to them, but you want to be rigorous because you know your opponent will be working very hard to find fault with whatever methodology you use.

The 3rd factor also seems pretty clear... to me and to people who would agree with me, anyway. It'd be kinda silly for me to ignore the possibility that opposing council could come up with something very clever and surprising about the purchase habits of Warframe players. I'd expect the "likely injury" part to draw the most heat - that's definitely where I would concentrate if I was defending DE on this. "Injury? What injury, a little time and the cost of a sandwich spent on a video game? Hardly seems like any injury worthy of the term."

I'd definitely be interested to get the opinion of a practicing attorney with experience in this realm, though. If I remember and they aren't all too busy, maybe I can make that happen :P

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Dragon.DT said:

You're just inventing a problem to another problem. If DE wants to create a new class of resource they can, but that needs to be explicitly stated. It was labeled a resource in the dev post, if they want to make a post clarifying their position it needs to be put in game. There is no indication that the game SHOULD work like this as pigments aren't consistent either. DE can either create a new class, or enable drop boosters to work on steel essence, but right now, they are engaging in deceptive business practices.

What defines a deceptive business practice, DE meets all three of its requirements.

1. whether the representation, omission or practice is likely to mislead,
2. the reasonableness of the practice from the perspective of a consumer or group of consumers, and
3. the materiality of the act or practice, which involves analyzing whether the act or practice is likely to influence or otherwise “affect the consumer’s conduct or decision with regard to a product or service,” resulting in likely injury.

 

Of course they should have mentioned it, there are several things they should have mentioned regarding steel essence and what interacts with the drop rate. I'm fairly sure people here are oblivious to several other things not working on the essence either. There is however indication and patch notes that it should work like this since we got the same mechanic with RJ resources when it comes to booster interaction. And how should they enable it, do you want both 100% roll chance and then doubled drop chance? That in itself would be inconsistant given RJ resources. So that means essence should end up as a chance to roll with a 2% or 4% chance to drop, effectively nerfing it just because people are bullheaded. You'd be worse off in the end.

[Voltage]

On 2020-07-24 at 11:05 AM, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Why you resurrected idea that Steel Essence is Resource?

I know I already quoted this before, but just had to add this. I don't think I need to explain anything. This isn't a bug. Steel Essence is in fact, a resource. Stated by DE, and listed as a component.

[Lutesque]

33 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I know I already quoted this before, but just had to add this. I don't think I need to explain anything. This isn't a bug. Steel Essence is in fact, a resource. Stated by DE, and listed as a component.

So we are being Scammed ?

[Marr]

On 2020-07-26 at 1:00 AM, notlamprey said:

Just for informational purposes, this is the Federal Trade Commission's three-factor test.

I don't have an exhaustive understanding of exactly what FTC regs DE is required to comply with (if any), and the process of properly researching it is pretty laborious if I'm being honest. This gets further complicated by the fact that any complaints would have to allege with specificity the violation that is occurring.

Because DE isn't explicitly and affirmatively advertising/marketing these boosters in the way we traditionally think of products being marketed, it becomes a matter of nailing down that 1st factor. I think it's pretty easy to make the case that DE is making an omission that is likely to mislead, based on an established practice of how boosters work. Making the strongest case possible on the 1st factor is a must IMO, even if it seems like a slam dunk. It sets the tone for the other two factors and you should always hammer on your strongest point.

For the purposes of the 2nd factor, a "consumer or group of consumers" doesn't have to be limited to the people who are interested in or play Warframe. It's meant to be construed broadly by design, meaning that any sufficiently large group of consumers objecting to this practice as unreasonable would satisfy the 2nd factor. How someone would go about establishing that group is up to them, but you want to be rigorous because you know your opponent will be working very hard to find fault with whatever methodology you use.

The 3rd factor also seems pretty clear... to me and to people who would agree with me, anyway. It'd be kinda silly for me to ignore the possibility that opposing council could come up with something very clever and surprising about the purchase habits of Warframe players. I'd expect the "likely injury" part to draw the most heat - that's definitely where I would concentrate if I was defending DE on this. "Injury? What injury, a little time and the cost of a sandwich spent on a video game? Hardly seems like any injury worthy of the term."

I'd definitely be interested to get the opinion of a practicing attorney with experience in this realm, though. If I remember and they aren't all too busy, maybe I can make that happen :P

 

 

The purpose of the using the three factor test is not to compel DE by any legal standard to revise the name of the booster. They are a Canadian company who is subject to FTC regulations as they operate within America, but the process of taking them to court over this is way more money than it's worth. The point of the three factor test is to show that DE is being deliberately deceptive over a desired resource and every day that goes by without an answer or fix for this is showing how they are acting in bad faith for the sake of their bottom line. And the reality is that it doesn't matter here, but this plants a seed of doubt into skeptical players going forward about how DE wants to treat us and it makes us even more reluctant than we already are to engage in the content that DE is providing for us.

 

The worst part about all of this is that there are players, like SneakyErvin, who are defending these deceptive practices. There are easy fixes to this problem. State that SE is not a resource, make it work with a booster by making the booster overcap drops, or say they made a mistake and give everyone some platinum for their mistake. But the player base's insistence on defending those who are deceiving them is quite saddening.

[notlamprey]

5 hours ago, Dragon.DT said:

The purpose of the using the three factor test is not to compel DE by any legal standard to revise the name of the booster. They are a Canadian company who is subject to FTC regulations as they operate within America, but the process of taking them to court over this is way more money than it's worth. The point of the three factor test is to show that DE is being deliberately deceptive over a desired resource and every day that goes by without an answer or fix for this is showing how they are acting in bad faith for the sake of their bottom line. And the reality is that it doesn't matter here, but this plants a seed of doubt into skeptical players going forward about how DE wants to treat us and it makes us even more reluctant than we already are to engage in the content that DE is providing for us.

 

The worst part about all of this is that there are players, like SneakyErvin, who are defending these deceptive practices. There are easy fixes to this problem. State that SE is not a resource, make it work with a booster by making the booster overcap drops, or say they made a mistake and give everyone some platinum for their mistake. But the player base's insistence on defending those who are deceiving them is quite saddening.

I think we agree on pretty much all the major points here. I'm not interested in litigating this issue, because I don't have the time or the money for it. The easier answer is what's being done in this thread, which is to put the question to the public. 

The only thing that I can imagine logging in to do these days would be to finish unloading the last of my trade goods, which is really just academic. The clan, the dojo, the platinum and all the other stuff will just continue to sit like it's doing now. Current events have all aligned to make Warframe a bad place to put my time, not to mention money. Tightening the purse strings across the board has left zero room for any expenditures for which I can't find firm justification; I suspect a lot of people are in the same situation as I am.

There was a time when I genuinely felt that DE and its staff held a certain solidarity (the Old Ones among us will remember that word) with the players. That's clearly not true anymore. Perhaps it never was. The studio itself is now more clearly seen to be an oddly hateful thing, practicing hate behind a mask of compassion. You can really see this if you ever manage to get on any staffer's bad side. Examples exist even from the very early days, and much is either forgotten or was not widely known of when it happened.

I'm sure everyone at DE is very good at what they do. I just wonder what exactly that truly means these days, since I'm fairly certain I'm no longer part of this game's target audience.

Sorry for rambling so much. I'm definitely interested in seeing where this Steel Essence situation ends up.

[Hypernaut1]

This is hilarious. So we're suing DE over steel essence now? 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

17 hours ago, Voltage said:

I know I already quoted this before, but just had to add this. I don't think I need to explain anything. This isn't a bug. Steel Essence is in fact, a resource. Stated by DE, and listed as a component.

629 while we need around 180, OK. Is it like I thought? I looked for My own prosper, so I bought Blue booster, overlooked for years because his effectiveness falling down with rarity of Resource, blinded by My own greed, and expect that Steel Essence will raining, nvm I don’t know how it works, but it’s time to blame DE for My fault.

[DrivaMain]

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is hilarious. So we're suing DE over steel essence now? 

Better call Jim Sterling.

Well DE is focused on Tennocon at the moment, surely they will respond after Tennocon.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Voltage said:

I know I already quoted this before, but just had to add this. I don't think I need to explain anything. This isn't a bug. Steel Essence is in fact, a resource. Stated by DE, and listed as a component.

Well there are other resources in the game that are also intended to not be effected by the chance booster. So it isnt exactly proof that it should work on essence just because it is stated as a resource and component. And given that it is on a table that is guaranteed to roll, there is precendence with all other drops that follow the same mechanic, where none are effected by resource chance booster, aside from pigments that are both guaranteed and not.

Did people rage about buying chance boosters to farm oxium before it was know that it dropped 100% of the time from Oxium Ospreys?

edit: And since nothing works to improve the drop rate of essence, it seems pretty clear that they are tailor made drops with their own rules.

[Magus_Tahir]

Well this thread has taken somewhat of a turn from the looks of things. That said enough time has passed to at least come to some semblance of understanding concerning the situation. DE is not going to respond to this in any manner that is from pressure from outside sources. I make that conclusion based on the inference that DE as I see it is no longer going to allow themselves to be pushed around by any commotion where expletives or a proverbial mob calling for pitch forks on Reddit or any other platform as engaging that directly would continue to legitimize that form of conduct as a way to create change with the Warframe Community and that is not healthy. It is not healthy for DE as a company nor is it healthy for the players in general as such actions would continue to escalate whenever a perceived slight was made on DE's part.

Even with all of the reading I have done on this subject I have yet to see a thread even asking in a neutral way if it was affected by any type of booster, or if intended that Steel Essence is behaving how it does in the system. Now I can't say one way or the other if DE would have responded, but there are a series of steps that must be taken first for proper engagement, and they have not been followed. This thread, the one of Reddit it is linked to, and others covering this topic have for intents and purposes are a testament to that.

Now for my part until I hear DE's side of this I will not automatically jump to the conclusion of malfeasance. As I said this thread and those like it on other platforms have and I will iterate this in my professional opinion tied DE's hand in this matter I fear. So expect it to take awhile before an answer actually happens. 

And I could be wrong, we could see some patch notes today with a change or possibly at Tennocon, but I sincerely doubt it. We shall see given how I don't expect the weekly reminders on Reddit to stop any time soon. 

[Trvldl]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

629 while we need around 180, OK. Is it like I thought? I looked for My own prosper, so I bought Blue booster, overlooked for years because his effectiveness falling down with rarity of Resource, blinded by My own greed, and expect that Steel Essence will raining, nvm I don’t know how it works, but it’s time to blame DE for My fault.

Very eloquent victim blaming here. Please, continue responding to make clear who supports DE in this case.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Did people rage about buying chance boosters to farm oxium before it was know that it dropped 100% of the time from Oxium Ospreys?

It was known from the get-go. Why do you keep bringing up resources with 100% dropchance vs 2% chance for cubes? Find resources with low dropchance that aren't affected by blue booster, otherwise you have no ground to stand on.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And since nothing works to improve the drop rate of essence, it seems pretty clear that they are tailor made drops with their own rules.

It seems pretty clear that if DE didn't state it outright then it's a bug and not a feature. Or a foul play on their side, but we wouldn't assume that until they respond, right? This whole thread wouldn't exist if it was by design, because they'd have responded already by now.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

2 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Very eloquent victim blaming here. Please, continue responding to make clear who supports DE in this case

I put +200% Status chance into weapon with base 1% SC. Am I dumb or should I blame DE because I don’t know how SC works and weapon doesn’t Proc as I expected? Headlessly buying Blue booster while I don’t know how it works isn’t DE’s problem. As I stated a little bit of self criticism will not harm.

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

It was known from the get-go. Why do you keep bringing up resources with 100% dropchance vs 2% chance for cubes? Find resources with low dropchance that aren't affected by blue booster, otherwise you have no ground to stand on.

It seems pretty clear that if DE didn't state it outright then it's a bug and not a feature. Or a foul play on their side, but we wouldn't assume that until they respond, right? This whole thread wouldn't exist if it was by design, because they'd have responded already by now.

We have RJ resources that are balanced around their own drop rate and nothing else. 50% or 2% is a matter of where DE wanted the balance to be at. I'm just waiting for the day when they say "due to large outcries we've decided to move steel essence to table X which has a 50% chance to be rolled while essence retains the 2% drop rate but is now effected by the resource chance booster (blue)."

DE made it pretty clear in the Drydock patch.