The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[RiftRipper]

5 minutes ago, Skye_Archer said:

Somewhat mixed feelings about Ivara's Quiver being the ability available after subsuming, partially because this ability although not powerful in terms of damage numbers as none of the arrows do damage per say, but the versatility of the power is what makes it so powerful in many situations... You aren't giving one power here, you literally are giving four!

Overwhelmed and unable to kill things fast enough? Put everyone to sleep! and kill one at a time

Overwhelmed and need to take a breather(or escape)? Cloak

Need to get the enemy away from something you are defending? Cloak + Noise arrow

Having difficulty parkour to a destination? daskwire!

All that said, many of Ivara's abilities are going to be problematic whichever one you choose to give out, but from my perspective... Quiver is exceptionally unbalancing due to the versatility of the power!

 

The OP (as of writing this) describes Quiver given by Helminth as "Tap Cloak, Hold Noise" so it looks like other Warframes won't be able to use the Sleep or Dashwire arrows so this should alleviate a good chunk of your concerns.

Some clarification in the OP of exactly what arrow types will be available would be great.

[Deshiel]

ok lads what should I use on my Mesa? I'll definitely remove that charged shot thing as I never use it.

[Hixlysss]

2 hours ago, I_NightStAr_I said:

I think it's pretty clear, I'm not sure what you misunderstood

- You can replace 1 Ability per Warframe.
- Every Warframe can be Subsumed to permanently provide 1 specific Ability to Helminth.

1 ability to be replace per Warframe, meaning any warframe can replace any 1 2 3 4 to get a new ability from Helminth, and every Warframe can 'give' a specific pre-designated ability to helminth

You can have 1 different Ability infused PER config!

Meaning each config can have 1 'subsume' ability slapped on but since in the order of reading from top to bottom, you gotta understand this need to be  "In Respect to the first statement", else, I don't see anything hard to understand here, I'm pretty sure this is just a 'you' problem, no offence though 

 

My issue is the 1 per warframe config is not mentioned until later. When I first read it I was like "aww, so it's 1 per warframe no matter the configs? Ah well." But then later I got confused cause it mentioned having different powers per slot. The 2 statements in of themselves conflict. One says "1 ability per warframe" the other is "1 ability per warframe config slot" which are different.

[(NSW)RaDiCaL_eD]

De just use harrow in steel path.

Without the Grenade fan of protea he just has the choice to use the rakta daggers ....

I am so sad about the news... is to use Grenade fan from protea... 

You could use this to reduce balance faults ...

[selig_fay]

14 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I don't think you've realised how broken this is mate. Let's take Dispensary as a great example. Let's choose Valkyr for our sample. Now all focus abilities like say Hysteria have the drawback of only being able to regain energy via energy orbs, Zenurik dash, energy pads etc don't work in these abilities. Now with dispensary you can CREATE an orb at any time, as often as you like. Couple that with arcane energize and Valkyr never needs to leave Hysteria EVER. That's just 1 example.

Oh, my God, now the hysteria will last forever. It will break... Nothing.

Really, find another example. I think even Mesa can find something better than a dispenser. The dispenser is just a convenience and an opportunity to play in a different way. Nothing more.

[Claric]

I see a lot of people angry for silly reasons. Most of the supposed "overpowered" combinations are already present in the game in the form of party play. Having a Mesa with roar is the same as having a rhino in the group. Sure, there are some combinations that aren't possible in the current system, but that doesn't really matter when the frames as presently constructed can already tackle most/all of the content as is. If anything, this allows the ones that are lagging behind to catch up a little. For the already strong frames, this allows you to, what, kill level 5000+ enemies and do 10 hour survivals? You can already do that now. So what's the problem?

[Ocewatt]

5 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Sure there will always be people who always have to have the most perfect optimal whatever, but nothing DE does will ever change that. Certainly some damage augments + certain frames will become meta, but the point is if just a specific role needs to be filled, it no longer has to be that same frame every time. 

If a frame gets there usage killed, they were probably already pretty meta if their ability being used by others killed them that badly. Maybe it would force DE to rework them and make them better and less reliant on one ability to be seen as useful by the community. But more likely imo, those frames will also be able to use new abilities and fill new roles,and unless someone wants the perfect frame + new ability combo, and just wants the role filled, the idea is players now have way more choices. 

Many groups aren't as organized and with 42 frames just want a particular role filled, and for those who must have the most perfect meta, they will always find a way anyway, like water. 

"They will always find a way anyway, like water."
Exactly. There's no use in concerning yourself with meta slaves. They are the same in every game. DE should do their best to throw them off whenever they can, however. They are toxic and they kill games. 

[I_NightStAr_I]

3 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

My issue is the 1 per warframe config is not mentioned until later. When I first read it I was like "aww, so it's 1 per warframe no matter the configs? Ah well." But then later I got confused cause it mentioned having different powers per slot. The 2 statements in of themselves conflict. One says "1 ability per warframe" the other is "1 ability per warframe config slot" which are different.

I see what you mean, I think the part where the misunderstanding comes in "- You can replace 1 Ability per Warframe." is you thought that 1 ability per warframe as in "the receiving warframe" can only get 1, but in my way of understanding it means "1 ability can be taken from each warframe" as in the "giving" warframe can only give 1

[DeathMavrik]

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Ivara

Quiver

Empowered Quiver

Tap Cloak, Hold Noise. Augment only affects Cloak and Dashwire. 

 

My disappointment is immeasurable

and my hayden tenno is ruined 

[Flandre_Scarlet_]

Holy S#&$, this got me excited. A lot of really good abilities and so much build potential. Thanks a ton for this, this might have been your best idea in ages!

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Oh, my God, now the hysteria will last forever. It will break... Nothing.

Really, find another example. I think even Mesa can find something better than a dispenser. The dispenser is just a convenience and an opportunity to play in a different way. Nothing more.

Lol. Continue staying clueless then.

[super00bird]

This open up a tons of possibilities and play style. I am hyped!!

[dyenxx]

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Wukong

Defy

hmm dont we need staff to do this? dear de rebecca,

                        you can still change it we still have time 🙂 jk

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Lol. Continue staying clueless then.

I'm surprised you didn't find another example. You could say this would break a Banshee that few people play and few people will play even with a dispenser.

[Benaful]

I wish we could add one ability from other warframe and one abilitie from the helmith, that way we can use helminth abilities, remove the 2 useless skills i have in my nova prime since is a duration build and add the healing pet skill to :D, otherwise we wont use helminth skills, and some frames have 2 useless skills, or not useless but, some builds cant use all of the skills a frame have.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, selig_fay said:

I'm surprised you didn't find another example. You could say this would break a Banshee that few people play and few people will play even with a dispenser.

I mean I could but there didn't seem much point in bothering arguing with you. Mark my words, things will require nerfing. And I'm an exploiter mind you and I'm still saying it's just too much.

[UltraLYT]

7 hours ago, Rustning said:

Defy isn’t considered Wukong’s signature? Wasn’t that the only ability he used to be known for? I was certain it was going to be Cloud Walker 😞 dang

My understanding is the current Cloud Walker is really the pre-reworked Defy as it generates health as long as you have energy, like in the old days.

[Benaful]

hace 50 minutos, Albert_Porkins dijo:

Sounds like a silent admission that it's her only useful skill.

If you aren't going to buff Valkyr, at least allow us to replace two skills...

Valkyr have one of the best base stats, we can add something like roar and we made her a very strong support frame, she tanks and gives melee speed buffs along the fact that she now can have roar whit that base stats you dont need to worry about nullifiers and buffs duration, i just wish we could add one abilities from other frame and one abilitie from helminth, since no one will use the helminth skills if they dont allow that.

[UltraLYT]

Do we copy the original mod configuration with all the scaling?  This is very important because chances are the mods on the warframe who is going to subsume it cannot maximize that ability.

[McBrinquedo]

Will inaros work with Chroma ward?

 

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I mean I could but there didn't seem much point in bothering arguing with you. Mark my words, things will require nerfing. And I'm an exploiter mind you and I'm still saying it's just too much.

You say it requires a nerf, but you don't say why. I say again, endless hysteria is not even close to a strong thing when we have a revenant. And even so, the only thing that will be broken is the Eidolon hunt. Are you worried about what people will do 8x3? I'm not.

[Fungus_Billeh]

7 hours ago, --Q--Candy said:

This system needs Heavy Nerfs and active maintenance.This has the potential to kill the balance in this game forever. If it will be released like this and wont get balanced very often you can say goodbye to all sorts of Balance in this game.
I hope that you will do something about this, else we can say goodbye to ever have any challenge in this game.

We're talking about Warframe here, right?

This is long, so TLDR: I disagree, like your point on +weapon damage augments tho, would argue that this buffs low end more than high end.

Let's be honest here, balance and challenge went out the window a long time ago. I don't dispute that the fact that this will change the game, but I would like to argue that this is generally a good thing.

We already have endless energy with energy restores and zenurik's dash. Dispensary is clunky, you have to sit in one place to get at max 2 energy orbs, which isn't that great if you're not running maxed arcane energize. 

The Grineer are still pretty much a joke, they still get deleted, albeit a bit slower. And you're kind of forgetting secondaries like pox and zakti can strip 80% of armor with corrosive, and do even better with viral, so shuriken would have an impact, but not much, and would it wouldn't be worth a mod slot on most frames. 

Rest and Rage would just let other frames do equinox's job, it wouldn't really be bad.

I agree that they probably should do as you're suggesting and prevent abilities with augments that buff damage (shock, smite, etc.) from being put on the same frame as a damage boost, that'd be fine with me, but preventing the augment from being equipped alongside the ability would be better as it would let frost keep his 1 to blow his globes and still get damage buffs. But I would argue that the addition of electricity and radiation on weapons only isn't that great.

I'd argue that this buffs low end more than high end. None of these abilities would make god+ tiers like Saryn more overpowered than they already are. On the other hand, I would like to try to give my Booben some survivability, however that winds up manifesting.

DE should definitely keep listening to feedback, and change things accordingly when Deimos drops, but I doubt it will be as apocalyptic as you claim it will be.

[Redfeather75]

5 minutes ago, McBrinquedo said:

Will inaros work with Chroma ward?

 

I was think of using Ward with both Inaros and Nekros. 😲

[I_NightStAr_I]

35 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Except for any frame using a  focus ability where those tactics don't work. Or did you forget that.

Lmao this noob thought dispenser is broken on other frame, hahaha, as if veterans dont already spam energy pads all day every day and default wearing arcane energize, tell you what, I would rather get roar than having an ability that replenish something I don't need xD

[RiftRipper]

Overall, I'm really satisfied with the look of this system. My only complaint is that some of the subsumed abilities seem pointless in competition with other abilities. For example;

-Why would I give a frame Ensnare when Larva is way better except for its marginally shorter base duration? Ensnare also becomes considerably weaker without its synergies with Whipclaw and Venari.

-Aside from shenanigans involving putting the decoy in hard-to-hit/reach places, Loki's Decoy seems like an inferior choice to Nyx's Mind Control when it comes to creating something that draws aggro.

-Blood Altar and the newly-buffed Well of Life (this ability might actually see some use now on frames that AREN'T Trinity) have some serious overlap going on. Both abilities turn an enemy into an invincible radial healing fountain.

-Why would I put Ice Wave on ANYTHING? This ability is pretty terrible and is basically guaranteed to be the ability that anyone will replace if they use this system on their Frost.

Maybe you guys can give abilities like Ice Wave and Decoy some attention (like you did with Well of Life) so that these abilities can actually be competitive in this system. Or maybe you'll choose different abilities based on feedback. We'll see.

Thanks for all the info on this upcoming system. Really looking forward to it.