The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb (XB1)MetalxPhoenix:

It's very obvious they know it's the best ability in the system and will abuse it just like everything that has came out broken like Bramma.

Glad to see we have mindreaders among us.

It's also possible that "they" actually think this way and aren't going to use it on most frames. I know, shocking idea to think that people actually mean what they say! It's way more likely that everyone who thinks Roar is fine or even bad as Chrysalis ability is part of a conspiracy to keep Roar on this list! I for my part would be perfectly fine if Roar was removed and if Defy wasn't on it I'd be happy if Rhino's Charge was.

Another reason why Roar is going to be "bad" is because so many people are buying into it being the best and only choice and are going to pick it on every frame possible (which isn't every frame/build by the way since some use negative duration and/or negative strength, but I'm sure you knew that) and it doesn't stack. Meaning if everyone and their mother has it you (or the others) effectively have an ability less if you pick it too (in squads of course). Basically, I'll very likely get the Rhino buff either way because others are going to pick it for me and for the unlikely event that they don't or if I play solo: I deal enough damage.

Larva, Ensnare, Breach Surge, Rest, Resonator, Dispensary and a few others that I probably don't even think of as of yet are abilities I'd rather look out for than basic "moar dmg! big pp!"- Roar because these actually have the potential to "break" or trivialize the game - on their own within a different kit or in combination/synergy/interaction with other abilities. That's why you hear people not talk about those too much by the way.

(Eclipse also has the potential to be more interesting than Roar in some cases by the way - IF you need/want a damage buff - because noone knows yet which/if abilities mark your frame as "standing in light" - I think I recall hearing Nezha's Warding Halo doing so. Might be wrong though.)

[selig_fay]

8 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Roar is useless

Roar is useless. This is true for most of the game. And I can repeat that for as long as you want.

[selig_fay]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Larva, Ensnare, Breach Surge, Rest, Resonator, Dispensary and a few others that I probably don't even think of as of yet are abilities I'd rather look out for than basic "moar dmg! big pp!"- Roar because these actually have the potential to "break" or trivialize the game - on their own within a different kit or in combination/synergy/interaction with other abilities. That's why you hear people not talk about those too much by the way. 😉

I think the dispenser will not break the game. At the end of the day, it's just an energy recovery alternative. You spend your ability slot and mod slot to increase your build. I think this is a fair price.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

I think the dispenser will not break the game. At the end of the day, it's just an energy recovery alternative. You spend your ability slot and mod slot to increase your build. I think this is a fair price.

That's a valid view. I thought about perma-Hysteria (replacing Ripline probably) or perma-Prowl (replacing Navigator probably) for example when I said that - granted Prowl already has cloak arrow to refresh energy. Also, generally future or present channeling abilities that are designed to be turned off eventually might benefit or have trivializing combos from having Dispensary available in the ability pool. But again, I can see your point of view as well and maybe it was too far of a reach on my part. Point is Dispensary is a more interesting choice than Roar on some frames in my opinion.

[Rawbeard]

7 hours ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

He edited his original comment. He was speaking of Chroma originally. Maybe try reading my quote.

I did. that's what your comment said. nice try.

[(PSN)xxav1xl6ivax]

On 2020-08-12 at 10:52 AM, Voltage said:

Oh boy. Here we go. This looks impossible to balance, and the damage ability buff restriction won't change much of anything. Let's see how it plays out.

After reading comments, and looking through these changes more than once, I am convinced that this will be nerfed after being released. It would be nice for DE to tune this or reconsider some decisions before launching so nobody is getting burned 😞 

Oh, they did. 

They tuned it and reconsidered some decisions before each time they tuned it and reconsidered some decisions, before it moved into one stage of testing, to another, then back, then pre-alpha, then alpha, then back, then in working with different build clusters, and back, and into beta, and back, and isolated, integrated, and all the things that a staff of more than 300 employes do as part of their full-time jobs, when working on developing a new part of a new system, that integrates with new and old parts of existing and developings systems, for a game, that unlike consumer PRODUCTS, (wrapped in packaging, and stocked on shelves, just to be unpacked into waste for ceaselessly expanding landfills, and devoured after installation by the insatiably malcontent appetites of consumers who can never get enough "content") is developed andistributed, adjusted & tuned as a continuous PROCESS in perpetual development. 

Just playing with matches and smoking in bed a lot is no assurance of getting burned, but applying some resraint can always help mitigate the risk of it happening.

It would be nice for DE to actually turn out to be a single, anthropomorphic type entity that talks, and walks around and acts like an old fashioned political candidate forsome high public office, kissing babies, shaking hand with constituents, making promises about how everyones lives are gonna be, and assuring everyone that everything will change for the better AND stay just the same way that everyone likes, while representing everyones, and YOUR values. 

But it's not.

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

I'm really excited for this. 

Now I just wish I could get a witch themed wisp hat for the goofy build idea I have. 

[selig_fay]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Also, generally future or present channeling abilities that are designed to be turned off eventually might benefit or have trivializing combos from having Dispensary available in the ability pool

Well, given that many channeling abilities can go on forever right now, I don't see a bad moment here. Moreover, most of them are still not strong compared to some duration abilities that can be supported indefinitely. The same difference between hysteria and iron skin. I think iron skin is more convenient.

[CopperBezel]

4 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Roar is useless. This is true for most of the game. And I can repeat that for as long as you want.

Okay, sure, but we still obsess over damage output to keep up with whatever the highest level content this week is, and things like Roar are useful in that specific context.

I did realize that the one frame I was intending to use Roar on, Wisp, would be better off with Nourish Strike. Breach Surge chains damage as Radiation, but two factions are resistant to that. Adding Toxin instead of just more Radiation will be significantly more effective.

[selig_fay]

53 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I did realize that the one frame I was intending to use Roar on, Wisp, would be better off with Nourish Strike. Breach Surge chains damage as Radiation, but two factions are resistant to that. Adding Toxin instead of just more Radiation will be significantly more effective

I'll just take a lavra and mutalist-cermos for wisp. Let's see which is better, a simple litle increase in toxin damage or hell of fps. 

[CopperBezel]

Wisp double dips, though. Both weapon and ability damage is increased by Roar and Nourish Strike, and Breach Surge absorbs weapon damage and turns it into ability damage against a nearby enemy. Potentially, by the time you kill the guy you're shooting, his three friends have been long dead. And that on a frame that already builds for maximum Strength thanks to reservoirs benefiting from nothing else and being 80% of her deal. That's the synergy I'm hoping to try out, at least. 

Which is not to knock your strategy, there are a lot of good possibilities here.

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, (PS4)xxav1xl6ivax said:

Oh, they did. 

They tuned it and reconsidered some decisions before each time they tuned it and reconsidered some decisions, before it moved into one stage of testing, to another, then back, then pre-alpha, then alpha, then back, then in working with different build clusters, and back, and into beta, and back, and isolated, integrated, and all the things that a staff of more than 300 employes do as part of their full-time jobs, when working on developing a new part of a new system, that integrates with new and old parts of existing and developings systems, for a game, that unlike consumer PRODUCTS, (wrapped in packaging, and stocked on shelves, just to be unpacked into waste for ceaselessly expanding landfills, and devoured after installation by the insatiably malcontent appetites of consumers who can never get enough "content") is developed andistributed, adjusted & tuned as a continuous PROCESS in perpetual development. 

Just playing with matches and smoking in bed a lot is no assurance of getting burned, but applying some resraint can always help mitigate the risk of it happening.

It would be nice for DE to actually turn out to be a single, anthropomorphic type entity that talks, and walks around and acts like an old fashioned political candidate forsome high public office, kissing babies, shaking hand with constituents, making promises about how everyones lives are gonna be, and assuring everyone that everything will change for the better AND stay just the same way that everyone likes, while representing everyones, and YOUR values. 

But it's not.

I have absolutely no idea what you just wrote.

[Tesseract7777]

On 2020-08-13 at 6:23 AM, Marine027 said:

Oh boy, i can't wait to see this burn down

You could have expressed all your thoughts in a much more professional way, but it makes it sound like you just want the developers to fail... out of spite? Does it amuse you? Like the system or not, their intention is to bring you something nice to enjoy, and you are saying things like that? 

I'm not going to sit here and say I don't see problems with the system, but your attitude is not helping. 

I don't want to see it burn down. It is going to be a part of the game, like it or not, so I would like to see DE make some balances changes before release, keep balancing, and make it work. I play this game. I want the features in it to be good. 

I am not a spiteful person who just wants to see others fail out of glee so I can go "I told you so". 

[MrFrog9]

17 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Criminy, strawman much? Who is claiming that Roar is useless? It certainly isn't anyone in this thread.

If the argument "if it wasn't broken, you wouldn't want it"

except im not claiming that if it wasn't broken you wouldn't want it, im claiming that if it's as dubiously-relevant as some people are sayng (i kind of want to go back through a few pages and repost every single permutation of "roar is pointless because we do enough damage" as le ebin flourish but tbh it probably wont be as impressive as it is in my head) then a) shouldn't we want an ability that is more relevant, and b) why are people so vehemently defensive about it, specifically, being on the list, such as the guy a few posts after you writing multiple somewhat-heated paragraphs about an ability they supposedly don't intend to use and wouldn't be upset over if it wasnt an option

e: in any case we seem to be in agreement that roar is very much the best ability on the list by a wide margin so lets focus on the positive I guess [okay that last bit came off as more condescending than i intended]

[CopperBezel]

Well, it can't be quite that vast of a margin considering that Nourish Strike works extremely similarly and is on the same list - anything you have in mind for Roar can be done with Nourish Strike to results that may be better or may be worse depending on the situation you have in mind. And that really extends to anyone who's defending Roar on the grounds that it adds something unique to the Helminth system, because I don't think it does. 

But I also recognize that Roar being too powerful for the system isn't even the only case being made against it. The argument that it's too much a defining, signature aspect of Rhino's kit to be transferrable is pretty reasonable too. I'm not ultimately convinced by either enough to think they've made a strong case for changing it, but.

[Moonstruck_Berry]

What rank do we need to reach for the entrati in order to purchase the helmith chrysalis segment & may we use universal medallions?

[-WAR-Alucard]

On 2020-08-12 at 8:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warframes that are Subsumed join the Helminth in an eternal bond. They will live on in a Lotus flower that matches the colours of the Subsumed Warframe, as a permanent honor.

So, can we get back the Warframes we sold for the slot?

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor einer Stunde schrieb MrFrog9:

except im not claiming that if it wasn't broken you wouldn't want it, im claiming that if it's as dubiously-relevant as some people are sayng (i kind of want to go back through a few pages and repost every single permutation of "roar is pointless because we do enough damage" as le ebin flourish but tbh it probably wont be as impressive as it is in my head) then a) shouldn't we want an ability that is more relevant, and b) why are people so vehemently defensive about it, specifically, being on the list, such as the guy a few posts after you writing multiple somewhat-heated paragraphs about an ability they supposedly don't intend to use and wouldn't be upset over if it wasnt an option

e: in any case we seem to be in agreement that roar is very much the best ability on the list by a wide margin so lets focus on the positive I guess [okay that last bit came off as more condescending than i intended]

In case you were refering to me as "the guy": I don't think you've read my actually heated posts.

I don't see how not caring very much about Roar -PERSONALLY- and stating not caring -PERSONALLY- about it being or not being on the list and giving the reasons as to why that is equates to defending Roar being on the list. That's a display of some major mental gymnastics being performed.

It's funny how people who think Roar is way too good are totally fine to state their opinion but if you don't think it is as big of a deal as some seem to think it is, voice that opinion and even give your reasoning as to why that is people imply you're defending it with an ulterior motive, you're dishonest or ilogical (and those who do imply that don't even have the guts to look for discourse with you).

Again, for all I care, remove Roar, add Charge and change Defy to Celestial Twin or Cloudwalker if it bothers people. Seems good to me too. I just would prefer not to have Defy AND Charge on the list personally.

I wont use Roar on many frames outside of maybe some solo Eidolon, PT and Kuva Lich builds - maybe none, which means for me personally it's a relatively balanced choice amongst a pletora of other interesting abilities. Sorry if the fact that some people don't value Roar as highly as you do shatters your world view.

[SaxumRex]

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Deeceem dijo:

Again, for all I care, remove Roar, add Charge and change Defy to Celestial Twin or Cloudwalker if it bothers people. Seems good to me too. I just would prefer not to have Defy AND Charge on the list personally.

Why you don't Defy to be on the list? Legit question, I'm curious. 

Apologies in advance if you already answered this, I jumped from page 2 to here.

[MrFrog9]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

-snip-

Sorry if me referring to you obliquely upset you; my intent wasn't to belittle. I do stand by my stance that some people saying they're totes not gonna use roar but imma cut you if you say it shouldn't be on the list are at the very least not being honest with themselves. If that upsets you, the most I can say is that I regret that you're upset.
 

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, it can't be quite that vast of a margin considering that Nourish Strike works extremely similarly and is on the same list - anything you have in mind for Roar can be done with Nourish Strike to results that may be better or may be worse depending on the situation you have in mind. And that really extends to anyone who's defending Roar on the grounds that it adds something unique to the Helminth system, because I don't think it does. 

But I also recognize that Roar being too powerful for the system isn't even the only case being made against it. The argument that it's too much a defining, signature aspect of Rhino's kit to be transferrable is pretty reasonable too. I'm not ultimately convinced by either enough to think they've made a strong case for changing it, but.

I mentioned Nourished Strike as similarly odious in my initial commentary, although that was a while ago (I couldn't even tell you which page it's on lol). Nourish isn't quite as bad as Roar imo due to it not affecting Bleed procs (which are a major source of damage vs. high level Grineer) and it affecting abilities... inconsistently (I can't remember the thread where someone showed this but basically due to spaghetti code NS boosts some abilities' damage but not others with no apparent pattern). I will propose that having Nourished Strike and Roar together in their own echelon isn't that much better than Roar sitting alone at the top (it's definitely better for the sake of just offering some choice for party buffing though). I'm personally against having really potent damage boosting transferable at all since I think that will inevitably increase how much damage both solo and coop players are able to do by a pretty drastic amount, which considering DE very recently introduced a new play mode entirely to serve as a home for very tough enemies would be a pretty major case of shooting themselves in the foot because it means they're almost immediately making the game mode defined almost exclusively by being tough less tough (you could also say that Steel Path is intended to provide a playground for future power jumps, which I disagree with, but that's fine too).
We seem to have reached a resolution where we agree that Roar, Nourished Strike, etc. are really strong options within the system itself but we disagree on whether they're potent enough to cause enough negative fallout throughout both the system and the rest of the game as a whole to justify not being transferable. I think that's satisfactory, although I'd be happy to continue this discussion as I'm somewhat enjoying it.

[DebrisFlow]

The prospect of farming again frames like Khora, Harrow, Nidus to subsume them is disheartening. Recycling the absolutely worst farming experiences that this game offered in the years is not a honest move toward any kind of player. Do you have plans to revise the most negatively perceived farms for these frames? At least for who already mastered them?

[(XBOX)TheLoneRaver678]

25 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

The prospect of farming again frames like Khora, Harrow, Nidus to subsume them is disheartening. Recycling the absolutely worst farming experiences that this game offered in the years is not a honest move toward any kind of player. Do you have plans to revise the most negatively perceived farms for these frames? At least for who already mastered them?

Khora and Harrow's parts were given away on the home streams already and it's possible Nidus could be one of the upcoming weeks. This week it's Ash's parts.

[DebrisFlow]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Maxy88 said:

Khora and Harrow's parts were given away on the home streams already and it's possible Nidus could be one of the upcoming weeks. This week it's Ash's parts.

Giving a una tantum devstream gift on a specific date, at a specific hour, is a treat for few lucky players, definitely not a solution to the problem

[RazerXPrime]

Can we still vote for this system not to be implemented?

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

3 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Can we still vote for this system not to be implemented?

Democratic freedoms are a myth.