Helminth ability values....

[Tonin4ABonin]

1 minute ago, GREF_TM said:

Look up EHP.

Same frame will get 83.78% from 1550 armor, which translates into taking 40% less damage compared to 800 armor from current defy.

Look up other forms of ehp. How about i just don't get hit at all by picking better CC/ultity skills? Dr% scaling on top of the current ehp values? Nobody was going to take defy for the armor unless they just wanted to goof and not being serious about making a frame have better survivability

 

2 minutes ago, Selpar said:

Pretty sure defy is nerfed solely because of Inaros, it isn't hard to give Inaros 8,635 HP a fact that is normally kept in check by the fact he only has 225 Armor, but if I gave him some armor mods and defy didn't have the lowered cap he could have 2000 armor while the effect is active. Having over 8000 HP and ignoring ~87% of incoming damage would make him stupidly good.

Probably, but /shrug inaros is already boring enough as is and plenty of other frames don't need any of that cause cc is a great DR option. Shield gating exists. Plenty of better things than more armor. It won't bug me but i'm sure it'll bug the now 20 wukong mains lol

[Selpar]

1 minute ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

Look up other forms of ehp. How about i just don't get hit at all by picking better CC/ultity skills? Dr% scaling on top of the current ehp values? Nobody was going to take defy for the armor unless they just wanted to goof and not being serious about making a frame have better survivability

 

Probably, but /shrug inaros is already boring enough as is and plenty of other frames don't need any of that cause cc is a great DR option. Shield gating exists. Plenty of better things than more armor. It won't bug me but i'm sure it'll bug the now 20 wukong mains lol

Actually they only nerfed the ability when it is used by someone other than Wukong, if you're a Wukong main you're good to go, other than trying to figure out which of your busted abilities you want to swap out for some other Warframe's lesser abilities. Cloud walker I guess, because you would have to be nuts to replace celestial twin which is hands down the best 1 in the game with the only other frame coming close being Wisp.

[Tonin4ABonin]

1 minute ago, Selpar said:

Actually they only nerfed the ability when it is used by someone other than Wukong, if you're a Wukong main you're good to go, other than trying to figure out which of your busted abilities you want to swap out for some other Warframe's lesser abilities. Cloud walker I guess, because you would have to be nuts to replace celestial twin which is hands down the best 1 in the game with the only other frame coming close being Wisp.

i meant wukong mains in the sense why you would pick defy over other better options when guardian exists anyways, but idk. i would prob get rid of defy itself it were me on wukong, bring utility like ensnare/larva and let my clone wreak havoc

[Selpar]

2 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

i meant wukong mains in the sense why you would pick defy over other better options when guardian exists anyways, but idk. i would prob get rid of defy itself it were me on wukong, bring utility like ensnare/larva and let my clone wreak havoc

Actually Wukong is probably why Warcry got nerfed since he has that insane exalted pole, and the twin that would have been insanely good, probably still will be since I doubt they could nerf that hard enough for it not to be broken, it swaps in right in place of defy as an armor boost and acts as a effective raw DPS booster.

That said Wukong could also make good use of Mind control Effectively becoming his own 3 man team...

[Mephane]

6 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Holy crap... Defy is capped at 750 armor and Dispensary is 12 seconds 

 

DE what are you smoking 

As I said elsewhere - if you have neither an Arcane Energize proc nor a double drop, with unmodded efficiency you actually end up losing energy instead of gaining some. This nerf is ridiculous, especially for an ability that was not OP or "meta" to begin with.

[GREF_TM]

3 minutes ago, Selpar said:

insane exalted pole

His iron staff is worse than normal melees and is a to-go ability to replace.

[Ikyr0]

6 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Holy crap... Defy is capped at 750 armor and Dispensary is 12 seconds 

 

DE what are you smoking 

That's pretty good actually. What are YOU smoking?

[GREF_TM]

3 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

750 armor Defy

3 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

That's pretty good actually.

 

[Ikyr0]

1 minute ago, GREF_TM said:

 

It's the BASE value. Without mods.

[GREF_TM]

7 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

It's the BASE value.

Except this ability doesn't scale its armor cap with power, and there is nothing in dev post about changing base ability to scale with power. So until someone actually hits rank 3, gets defy as first subsume and confirms it, we won't know for sure if it actually scales or not.

And even if it scales (which i hope it does), it's still a nerf unless you're running a 200% power or more build, which was not needed, considering this ability wasn't too good to begin with.

[Selpar]

18 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

His iron staff is worse than normal melees and is a to-go ability to replace.

If by worse than normal melees, you mean there are a few melee weapons that if build properly can out DPS it at close range, that is true.

But if your weapon isn't a high damage, high crit, blood rush build it probably won't out DPS Wukongs pole, and Wukongs pole is going to have a longer range for sure.

A well modded Wukong Staff does several thousand damage per hit, has high status and critical chance, and has a Primed reach slapped on it so that it has a longer range than some guns. When you use it so does the twin so the area of effect can easily CC a whole room to death, which is something that a normal melee just can't achieve.

Also Wukong's Staff can Zoren Copter if it has a high enough attack speed, unless that got patched.

Edit: I hope that never gets patched it isn't nearly as good as the old Zoren but it is the closest thing I've still got...

[Lutesque]

Dispenser is a Band Aid and Armor is overrated.

You chose the most boring nerfs to Complain about....

The real Tragedy is Larva having its range reduced.

[GREF_TM]

5 minutes ago, Selpar said:

are a few melee weapons

Way more than a few.

8 minutes ago, Selpar said:

But if your weapon isn't a high damage, high crit, blood rush build

Why wouldn't it?

8 minutes ago, Selpar said:

A well modded Wukong Staff does several thousand damage per hit

Just like any good melee.

9 minutes ago, Selpar said:

has high status

With 25% base and no access to weeping or status boosting augments like chromatic/adaptive? Cool story

10 minutes ago, Selpar said:

has a Primed reach slapped on it

After rework, it has 3.5 m. base range that doesn't scale with combo, 6.5m with primed reach, which is comparable with normal melees.

Stropha has ~15 meters of range on its shots btw. Outrange my ass.

 

So, what we have: you pay 5 energy/second and sacrifice a potential ability slot to get a mediocre weapon that can't even outperform good melees, when you can instead run a good melee that will perform better and won't have energy drain, and slap a melee-boosting ability like radial blind, warcry, maybe even just roar to buff you and the twin, which will push it ever further above iron staff. Iron staff is worthless as is and needs huge buffs to be a viable option.

 

 

 

 

[Lutesque]

26 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

It's the BASE value. Without mods.

The Value Isn't Affected by Mods...

 

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

People who want all the stuff on the list be good and comparable viable? lol

Good =/= best.

Viable =/= competitive.

[GREF_TM]

22 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Good =/= best.

Viable =/= competitive.

And buffing crap like decoy, spectrorage, ice wave, airburst, etc. contradicts this how, exactly?

[SenorClipClop]

8 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

And buffing crap like decoy, spectrorage, ice wave, airburst, etc. contradicts this how, exactly?

Buffing things doesn't contradict this, but I think there's a disconnect from reality in expectation, unless I'm reading people's opinions wrong. When players say "just buff Decoy to compete with Roar", there are a few things that make that much, much easier said than done. The most common goal in Warframe is to deal damage. How can Decoy possibly compete with Roar's (base) +50% damage on everything you do while keeping its identity as Decoy? Short of becoming a significant universal damage buff or high-damage quick area nuke (at which point it just wouldn't be Decoy anymore), it will remain so incredibly niche that the people clamoring for Roar on everything (because it is best) will never even consider Decoy.

Decoy could be made good, but if it isn't best a lot of people in the "buff everything" camp would still consider it trash and never use it.

[GNDZer0]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Buffing things doesn't contradict this, but I think there's a disconnect from reality in expectation, unless I'm reading people's opinions wrong. When players say "just buff Decoy to compete with Roar", there are a few things that make that much, much easier said than done. The most common goal in Warframe is to deal damage. How can Decoy possibly compete with Roar's (base) +50% damage on everything you do while keeping its identity as Decoy? Short of becoming a significant universal damage buff or high-damage quick area nuke (at which point it just wouldn't be Decoy anymore), it will remain so incredibly niche that the people clamoring for Roar on everything (because it is best) will never even consider Decoy.

Decoy could be made good, but if it isn't best a lot of people in the "buff everything" camp would still consider it trash and never use it.

Some frames already have no need for extra damage and would use decoy for survivability in glass anon builds if it wasn't hot garbage (ie people will just use another frames ability that exists and does the same except better) . The idea that an ability has to compete in the same area is wrong. It has to give you a functionality for which you can acceptably not pick another. 

Again, most trash abilities will remain trash no matter how much you nerf the high end ones, and the abilities that were already good enough were going to be used anyway for the function they provide over damage. Additionally for people who follow the meta, there will only be a handful top tier abilities anyway, nerfing them either changes the ability that was meta to another or keeps it but makes it more of a chore but still the overwhelming choice. The way to get more meta abilities is to actually give desirable functionality to abilities that suck. 

Just because the absolutely horrible abilities should be Buffed it doesn't mean all abilities have to be meta. Not EVERY non-metal ability needs a Buff, but a lot do and it's being swept under the rug. 

Also the argument that nerfing is easier is just nonsense. If a change is too big to do simultaneously just do it in smaller chunks.DE delivers bugged stuff all the time that gets hot fixed over time, but somehow it'd be a cardinal sin to actually plan to Buff unused crap in parts? (And yes, I know it's hard to test everything for bugs, this wasn't meant as pointing the finger, it happens and I understand why. I just don't buy the excuse to not do the second).

Laying an egg down gently is harder than dropping it on the table, but it's not hard to figure out why you'd often not go with the easiest approach. 

There's a reason people were generally OK with not being able to stack damage buffs and not so much with the nerfs.

[Fascistsonfire]

11 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Ah yes butchering usefull abilities so that everything sucks is totally a good thing instead of buffing the other abilities that suck. Now instead of more choice, there's even less. 

That's not how balancing works, even though you have a point. You can't just go on and buff everything without buffing the enemies. Of course, you can then guess the chain effect it becomes.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

5 hours ago, Selpar said:

Actually they only nerfed the ability when it is used by someone other than Wukong, if you're a Wukong main you're good to go, other than trying to figure out which of your busted abilities you want to swap out for some other Warframe's lesser abilities. Cloud walker I guess, because you would have to be nuts to replace celestial twin which is hands down the best 1 in the game with the only other frame coming close being Wisp.

Cloudwalker is arguably the best movement ability in the game, it heals you, and it gets you through lasers in spy vaults. IMO the obvious ability to replace is his 4, since its not that good you can just use a regular melee that doesn’t cost you energy.

[VRHmason]

12 hours ago, PopGligor said:

That's exactly why they nerfed them. Because the entire community would flock to 3 skills, when you have so many others that open up interesting builds, and that's the point of the system. If they released it in a state where 3 abilities dominate, it would be dead on arrival. And it's not even that these abilities are so objectively good, cuz they're not. It's that the community immediately got tunnel-visioned into them. The nerfs are good.
 

no matter how more they nerf them I'll still choose one of those 3-4 abilities because rest of them just suck

No way you can convice me to use Ash shuriken or something like that

[PopGligor]

2 minutes ago, VRHmason said:

No way you can convice me to use Ash shuriken or something like that

Why not, tho? Put it on a rhino, or a mirage, for some armor stripping, it'll be good.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

cmon DE at least make dispensary 15 seconds

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

The nerfs were either going to be so extreme that they won't be usable picks for anyone or basically do nothing nerfs because the frames that could actually use them dump stats in those areas thus making them still the most desired picks.  Neither situation is a good situation.

If DE truly found the abilities they nerfed problematic they should've replaced them with something else.  Taking away the only compelling options doesn't make for a very interesting system and certainly doesn't encourage me to explore and interact with said system.

[VRHmason]

1 minute ago, PopGligor said:

Why not, tho? Put it on a rhino, or a mirage, for some armor stripping, it'll be good.

If I have any buff for damage or protection I'll go for that over any of number 1 skill that I don't even use or like on original frame
 ...all most of those number 1 abilities are just waste of time