Helminth ability values....

[ShogunGunshow]

50% nerf is classic kneejerk DE. Can't say I'm surprised.

Fun part is, it's still going to be one of the more popular picks, because raw armor is something squishy frames desperately want.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

12 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Ah yes butchering usefull abilities so that everything sucks is totally a good thing instead of buffing the other abilities that suck. Now instead of more choice, there's even less. 

Yup.

12 hours ago, PopGligor said:

That's exactly why they nerfed them. Because the entire community would flock to 3 skills, when you have so many others that open up interesting builds, and that's the point of the system. If they released it in a state where 3 abilities dominate, it would be dead on arrival. And it's not even that these abilities are so objectively good, cuz they're not. It's that the community immediately got tunnel-visioned into them. The nerfs are good.
 

No, they're not good because alot of the abilties like ice wave and loki decoy are still trash.

They ARGUABLY either a) accomplished nothing more than reduce the number of "good options" which will lead to less diversity and less sense of player choice or b) didnt nerf any of the good abilities enough to make them "not good" but the trash abilities are still trash. 

 

I get they dont want people only using like 3 abilities but come on.

7 hours ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

Def was never really used for the armor anyways, so complaining about the armor is like ...what?

 

 

skill literally makes you invincible

but muh armor

Uh.. this is just silly. 

7 hours ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

Yes, but we aren't getting that one are we? And in any case armor is useful, 750 is more than plenty, including the fact guardian exists. In a scenario where 750 armor isn't useful, 1500 wouldn't have either, so arguing semantics really.

Uh, no. The more armor you have the more damage enemies have to do to kill you. 

[PopGligor]

1 hour ago, VRHmason said:

If I have any buff for damage or protection I'll go for that over any of number 1 skill that I don't even use or like on original frame
 ...all most of those number 1 abilities are just waste of time

Shock is a pretty strong augment. 200% electricity for 40 seconds is a good damage buff. There's a lot that people aren't seeing due to their tunnel vision.

[RazerXPrime]

13 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Holy crap... Defy is capped at 750 armor and Dispensary is 12 seconds 

 

DE what are you smoking 

Defy at 750 armor grants like 3% less DR than 1500 armor

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, (XB1)NuclearSquiddy said:

cmon DE at least make dispensary 15 seconds

Get an arcane energize. You should have one if you're not completely brand new.

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

13 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Holy crap... Defy is capped at 750 armor and Dispensary is 12 seconds 

 

DE what are you smoking 

We almost had something really cool folks. Well I guess we know what this means, we’re all going to equip revenants reave XD LMAO

[RazerXPrime]

I was wrong, carry on.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

13 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Ah yes butchering usefull abilities so that everything sucks is totally a good thing instead of buffing the other abilities that suck. Now instead of more choice, there's even less. 

Do you still Get to Choose , Yes. Will You Choose now maybe not. Would somebody put it on a Warframe with little armor I see know reason not too. Saying less choice when you have 52 choices sounds Crazy to me 

[Tonin4ABonin]

28 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Defy at 750 armor grants like 3% less DR than 1500 armor

Try telling this to people who can't think and ragepost about a a mediocre ability to begin lmao. Hellminth didn't kill defy, defy was already dead. Guardian exists. Dr% exist. Shield gating exists. Shields now have DR. CC exists.

[Tonin4ABonin]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Yup.

No, they're not good because alot of the abilties like ice wave and loki decoy are still trash.

They ARGUABLY either a) accomplished nothing more than reduce the number of "good options" which will lead to less diversity and less sense of player choice or b) didnt nerf any of the good abilities enough to make them "not good" but the trash abilities are still trash. 

 

I get they dont want people only using like 3 abilities but come on.

Uh.. this is just silly. 

Uh, no. The more armor you have the more damage enemies have to do to kill you. 

As someone with mesa as thier profile picture i would imagine you understand how DR works when guardian exists. So uh yeah, if a frame needs armor, they have easy access to it without a poor ability, and put something much more valuable in that slot, but i take too much press 4 and spin with 90% dr has gotten to you(oh imagine that 90% dr wow, huge difference that makes imagine that). Don't cast shattershield on your mesa and go into high levels and show me how well you survive as mesa with just armor stacking and I'll change my mind(cause it won't happen). There are FAR BETTER forms of ehp once you already have some armor, and you know it.

[RazerXPrime]

1 minute ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

Try telling this to people who can't think and ragepost about a a mediocre ability to begin lmao. Hellminth didn't kill defy, defy was already dead. Guardian exists. Dr% exist. Shield gating exists. Shields now have DR. CC exists.

If you create a party with Protea, Gara and build for shields, duration and power you're going to be basically immune to any type of damage. Basically any squishy frame can then have a healthpool of 2K with 90% DR which translates into 20K effective health. Wukong with 550 base armor, using defy at 1400 hp will have effective health of a bit below 11K. Wukong with 550 base armor, 1400 hp and using defy with 750 armor bonus will have an effective health of 7400. There is a difference, but it's marginal. And likely not even apparant when playing high level content. Boosting armor is more effective the higher your HP. For instance Wisp at 1200 hp with her own buffs and 175 armor has 1900 effective hp. With the 750 armor buff she goes to 4800 effective hp. And Wisp is squishy, but it's not like she cannot survive either. Increasing her effective HP by 250% is nothing to sneeze at.

[Tonin4ABonin]

23 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

If you create a party with Protea, Gara and build for shields, duration and power you're going to be basically immune to any type of damage. Basically any squishy frame can then have a healthpool of 2K with 90% DR which translates into 20K effective health. Wukong with 550 base armor, using defy at 1400 hp will have effective health of a bit below 11K. Wukong with 550 base armor, 1400 hp and using defy with 750 armor bonus will have an effective health of 7400. There is a difference, but it's marginal. And likely not even apparant when playing high level content. Boosting armor is more effective the higher your HP. For instance Wisp at 1200 hp with her own buffs and 175 armor has 1900 effective hp. With the 750 armor buff she goes to 4800 effective hp. And Wisp is squishy, but it's not like she cannot survive either. Increasing her effective HP by 250% is nothing to sneeze at.

But again, better DR or cc options are available as skills? So why would you even take defy to begin with? Unless you were doing it for fun, in which case you can't really complain then, because you're aware the DR gain is marginal anyways even at 1500. That's the point. If your goal is to become tankier defy was NEVER really a good option as there are far better ways. You don't know who you're going to be partied up with, so trying to build for that is an extreme case of grabbing details to fit a point, which simply doesn't work. Most people will build for solo play and join groups set aside maybe party buff augments. Nobody's going into their missions expecting a protea, and a gara etc.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

1 hour ago, RazerXPrime said:

Defy at 750 armor grants like 3% less DR than 1500 armor

Thats entirely false. 
 

1500 armor gives a DR of 83% (1500/(1500+300)), whereas 750 armor gives a DR of 71% (750/(750+300)). However, due to how EHP works, its not as simple as oh you take 83%-71%=12% less damage. Instead, you Go from the other end. You go from taking 17% damage to taking 29% damage, which is a 70% increase in damage. 

[RazerXPrime]

5 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

But again, better DR or cc options are available as skills? So why would you even take defy to begin with? Unless you were doing it for fun, in which case you can't really complain then, because you're aware the DR gain is marginal anyways even at 1500. That's the point. If your goal is to become tankier defy was NEVER really a good option as there are far better ways. You don't know who you're going to be partied up with, so trying to build for that is an extreme case of grabbing details to fit a point, which simply doesn't work. Most people will build for solo play and join groups set aside maybe party buff augments. Nobody's going into their missions expecting a protea, and a gara etc.

Well I only play with people I know so the combo isn't far fetched. And yea defy isn't reliable. So there's that. But the main thing is, better =/= fun. I don't care that I can have a single meta ability on a meta frame to make it a tad bit stronger. I care about fun, so I'll experiment with stuff and will leave my judgement for later. 

[RazerXPrime]

Just now, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Thats entirely false. 
 

1500 armor gives a DR of 83% (1500/(1500+300)), whereas 750 armor gives a DR of 71% (750/(750+300)). However, due to how EHP works, its not as simple as oh you take 83%-71%=12% less damage. Instead, you Go from the other end. You go from taking 17% damage to taking 29% damage, which is a 70% increase in damage. 

Yes, if you read on I confirmed my mistake like an hour ago.

[Tonin4ABonin]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Thats entirely false. 
 

1500 armor gives a DR of 83% (1500/(1500+300)), whereas 750 armor gives a DR of 71% (750/(750+300)). However, due to how EHP works, its not as simple as oh you take 83%-71%=12% less damage. Instead, you Go from the other end. You go from taking 17% damage to taking 29% damage, which is a 70% increase in damage. 

This doesn't change the fact there are better forms of self dr available due to helminth, and even CC/utility available to just prevent most damage outright

 

2 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Well I only play with people I know so the combo isn't far fetched. And yea defy isn't reliable. So there's that. But the main thing is, better =/= fun. I don't care that I can have a single meta ability on a meta frame to make it a tad bit stronger. I care about fun, so I'll experiment with stuff and will leave my judgement for later. 

Yeah that's fine but the guy coming in here saying that "killed defy", is just simply not true. Def just was never a great option to begin with. If you want to have fun with it have fun with it, by all means

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

Just now, Tonin4ABonin said:

This doesn't change the fact there are better forms of self dr available due to helminth, and even CC/utility available to just prevent most damage outright

Never said it was the best option (because honestly its far from it, making me so confused why it was nerfed). I was just commenting on the whole “only take like 3% more damage” value. 

[Tonin4ABonin]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Never said it was the best option (because honestly its far from it, making me so confused why it was nerfed). I was just commenting on the whole “only take like 3% more damage” value. 

Yeah that's fine, that's my whole point. Op is making it sounds like it killed defy, defy was already just not going to get picked lol. I don't get the nerf either, but i guess it'll matter to the 5 people that still pick it

[Jarriaga]

10 hours ago, PopGligor said:

Shock is a pretty strong augment. 200% electricity for 40 seconds is a good damage buff. There's a lot that people aren't seeing due to their tunnel vision.

Or, the builds people like to use are already constrained and can't properly fit an ability that requires an augment to be good, thus rendering the ability itself useless.

I play a 280% strength, 199% duration Valkyr with both Eternal War and Enraged. Do you think my build has the space to fit in an ability that is bad without an augment when Valkyr herself already has 2 abilities that require augments to be decent at higher levels? Adding Shock trooper means I'd have to remove:

- An Umbral mod (-770% HP, OR, -192% Armor, OR -66% Strength on top of losing the set bonus for the remaining mods)

- Blind Rage (-99 strength; hurts BOTH Hysteria and Warcry)

- Hunter Adrenaline (No reliable energy for a melee frame on Naramon unless you depend on pizzas or replace Strike/Fury for Energize).

- Narrow Minded (Warcry back to 13 usable seconds at 116% energy; Eternal War only gives 2 seconds per melee kill capped at 30 seconds)

- Enraged (Hysteria becomes worse than Iron Staff).

Where's the space to add Shock Trooper there without handicapping myself in the process for the sake of that buff when my current build is more useful? That's the same problem for many other people here with regards to MOST of those abilities. They require augments to be functional. Why would anyone add Shuriken without having a slot for the augment? And at that point you have Fire Kuva Nukor/Gaze + Corrosive, which can reach 170% status at a very high fire rate and you don't want 100% armor strip because it changes the damage types.    

If an ability can only find niche uses under very specific builds and/or if an ability can not hold its own without an augment, it will be justifiably categorized as bad when compared to more universal abilities that have immediate benefits without augments and without niche setups. We would not even be having this conversation if Shock had Shock Trooper incorporated to it by default.

[bibmobello]

39 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

But again, better DR or cc options are available as skills? So why would you even take defy to begin with? Unless you were doing it for fun, in which case you can't really complain then, because you're aware the DR gain is marginal anyways even at 1500. That's the point. If your goal is to become tankier defy was NEVER really a good option as there are far better ways. You don't know who you're going to be partied up with, so trying to build for that is an extreme case of grabbing details to fit a point, which simply doesn't work. Most people will build for solo play and join groups set aside maybe party buff augments. Nobody's going into their missions expecting a protea, and a gara etc.

But again who cares? When you can just use inaros, revenant, hyldrin, wisp or perma invisible frames and  you have 6 revives(with unlimited revives) and OP weapons making missions (even on high  levels  you don't normally see in the star chart) just trivial?

Some discussions sound really funny.. It's the same i ask what car is better to drive in an urban street with a 50 Km H limit, a car ables to reach 300 kmH or the other car doing 400KmH...

[Tonin4ABonin]

3 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

But again who cares? When you can just use inaros, revenant, hyldrin, wisp or perma invisible frames and  you have 6 revives and OP weapons making missions (even on high  levels  you don't normally see in the star chart) just trivial?

OP cares lmao, i don't.

[RazerXPrime]

4 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

But again who cares? When you can just use inaros, revenant, hyldrin, wisp or perma invisible frames and  you have 6 revives(with unlimited revives) and OP weapons making missions (even on high  levels  you don't normally see in the star chart) just trivial?

If you know how to play a frame even Nyx makes Steel Path trivial. I think every frame has it's own perks and with the Helminth system maybe we can add some more gameplay to some frames, but people are so hung up on direct damage or dr numbers that they fail to see actual potential. I mean there's people saying "Try Nyx on Steel Path if you want a challenge". They obviously have never played this frame before. She has an easier time with most content than many many other frames.

[bibmobello]

16 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

If you know how to play a frame even Nyx makes Steel Path trivial. I think every frame has it's own perks and with the Helminth system maybe we can add some more gameplay to some frames, but people are so hung up on direct damage or dr numbers that they fail to see actual potential. I mean there's people saying "Try Nyx on Steel Path if you want a challenge". They obviously have never played this frame before. She has an easier time with most content than many many other frames.

"Even nyx"? Dude you realize nyx is practical immortal(even more than revenant and wisp) and with enough range she can defend a target, right???? And probably if there were serious tough enemies in game(but there aren't), her 2 was the best ability in game.

[RazerXPrime]

2 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

"Even nyx"? Dude you realize nyx is practical immortal and with enough range he can defend a target right????

I play her a lot so yes. It's just that people here always state Nyx is weak.

[Jarriaga]

 

1 hour ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

This doesn't change the fact there are better forms of self dr available due to helminth, and even CC/utility available to just prevent most damage outright

Like what? Null Star? An ability that requires 285% duration to barely exceed what base Defy can do (85% vs 83%)? Not to mention that you lose DR by virtue of the particles flying away when you get close to enemies, which makes it not ideal for melee builds. Great if you're Saryn and Mesa and Equinox standing still while nuking the map or if you always stay far from enemies on top of requiring high duration for the buff. Not very good vs. Defy if you're a melee player or if you're only using Narrow Minded (199% // 60% DR) or Primed Continuity (155% // 45% DR) because most melee frames don't benefit from duration nearly as much. Gauss is the only exception because ALL of Redline's buffs scale off duration with minimum to no drawbacks for the rest of his abilities.

And you are free to throw in that Guardian Exists. A normal Defy means you can take out Guardian to replace it with Fury/Strike/Energize while having almost double the armor value. This is the ability I was going to give Mirage (Replacing Sleight of Hand)  before the nerf was announced to give her a reliable defensive buffer without compromising anything else. Now I have nothing for her.