Problems with ”New player experience” And the early game.

[Ryuurik]

Why so many new players guit so soon?

 

I hope DE read this as i see its really important for the future of warframe. I don't think i have bulletproof solution for new player issues, but i think i might have some useful points.

I have tried to get my real life friends play warframe with me for a long time without results. I wondered long time, why do they quit? So.. i started to test. I tested the early game several times with new accounts, asked from my friends who quit what was their reasons why they didn't like it and put really thought to it for a long time.

Just recently new updates arose, including the ”New player experience”. I had my hopes up.

But.. after checking what is new i noticed that the ”New player experience” is just a bit more beautiful intro for the game, but in reality it wont bring any more players to the warframe (Not much anyways), Because there is still nothing to fill the emptiness where new players are dropped in after the Vor's prize quest.

EDIT: I don't even remember if the Vor's price had a subtitles, that were clearly visible. Subtitles in every mission should be on by default, and disableable from settings.

 

Yes, its pretty now, but ”Facelift wont be helping if you are missing a hand or a leg.” And that essentially is what new player experience is still missing out.

Spoiler

Also introducing the operator at this point creates just more questions what there were earlier, so its actually also partly worse what it was before.

(I hope this is not it and there is still something coming out, because otherwise i see all this as empty effort.)

 

These are my thoughts about this topic. I'm a little worried, but i have hope for Warframe, and that is why i want to bring some thoughts up.

 

 

But.. yeah. Lets really get to it now..

 

Lets start with imaginary situations, and compare them.. When a developer or veteran player thinks about this, i would guess, that they see the start very differently. I hope you don't get the feeling i'm trying to insult, because that's not what i'm after. I'm simply trying to give a picture what situation might look like from someone else angle. Ok..  Here goes..

 

After Vor's price DE or veteran thinks something like this:

 

”Ok, now i need to go there, and do this and this, and also this, gain affinity and its done like this..”

Does the stuff, gets the boosters, buys the blueprints etc.

”Right. Done.”

 

 

BUT, not new player. Their thoughts after Vor's price might be more like this:

 

”Ok, WTH was that? Who is Vor.. Hmm.. He probably died. So whats next? What do i do now? Where did that girl with blue helmet that covers her eyes go? Umm.. maybe i need to go here?”

Goes to mission, ends up in party with veterans, that glide with light speed. Mission over, and newbie has no idea what so ever, WTH happened in the mission. Comes back to orbiter.

”What was that? Did i gain something? WTH happened? What is all this stuff i got?”

After that maybe tries again missions for some time, but gets frustrated, because there is not a single clue what to do and everything is over with flash, and newbie stays clueless.

”.. F*** it. Why do i even try. There is seemingly nothing in front of me. What a **** game.”

He/She then closes the game, and never returns.

 

As you see.. Simply, there is no visible reason to continue. The continuity is cut and there is no reason for fighting on. Warframe can as well just return to ”eternal sleep”.. Quit.

 

 

I believe the most frustrating thing after Vor's price, you are as a newbie around MR1, and the fact that in order to continue the story you NEED TO FARM, FARM AND FARM, until you are MR5.

WORST OF ALL is that new players DOESN'T EVEN KNOW how long they need to do farming or how to gain affinity or even that hey need to get to MR5 in the first place or that the affinity is same as xperience points.

In order them to see the next step or even how to do it they need to be guided how to do it and what is what by ”holding the hand, and not letting go.” Currently letting go, is what warframe does at too early point of game, and that is what creates those holes of questions and frustration.

(Yes, i know.. Some of you will likely say something like ”I did it, so can they” But that wont be helping those who CANT do it. Not all are like you or me.)

I'm not implying that farming is necesarily a bad thing in general. It's just that there is too big gap, filled with LONG grind, bad explanations if none, and lack of flow.

 

 

No other game that i have played has this big empty holes and lack of information between the story missions. In fact there should not be any hole between the MAIN missions and there should be CLEAR signs to side missions that are required for next main mission to open. DE need to FILL the holes as soon as possible and it's at least partly fixed.

Or maybe at least bring requirement closer in order to more easily be able to acces in The war within. Maybe lower requirement to MR1 or MR2. Not to forget some missions that are must to do and explain well why its must to do. Why do you need archwing, Kubrow etc. etc.

ALTHOUGH despite all those thoughts and ideas.. I don't think that is really the full solution either.. but its a start. There is stuff that they could put between empty spaces, like.. Nora.

(BTW, im getting in that more later at the text.)

 

 

Continuing with the intro issue..

 

The introduction at the earliest phase of the game and the flow of story line after it is cut in many places, and the holes are full of farming, including lack of information. That is essentially the reason why so many are quitting before really clinging in to the story.

The fix is so simple, that i have wondered, why no-one has not yet paid any attention to this. Maybe it is the fact, that usually DE, or players that have played the game long, wont actyally start from the empty (And with temporary amnesia ;D So you wouldnt know anything about who is who and what is what.) and that way actually work for it to find out, what is wrong with it?

Answer: Fill the empty gaps in the storyline with explanations and continious signs to show where to go next, what to do to get to next stop. Remove the ”Must farm dont know why” aspect between the story missions, and then tape it all together. Warframe main story is missing the CONTINIOUS FLOW and CLEAR reasons what is what and why to do what. Those are the biggest flaws to fix.

 

About the nora BTW..

Who in the earth is she anyway, and where did we get her frequency? Where did she come from? It's a good add in game, but it just pops out of nowhere, and makes beginning even more confusing! Nora needs a introduction mission in my opinion. Even something like saving her ass from some trouble would help to get know her better and fit in. That would also fill the part of the giant hole at the early game, but still.. not all of it.

 

Issue with CODEX & NAVIGATION

Another big problem is the CODEX console.. As i remember it, new player is never brought to it, so i guess most people dont ever find mission management system. (Correct me if im wrong.)

It's the worst place to put them anyway, and totally illogical spot for them.

Missions should be near where players go.

And where do players go? ... NAVIGATION!

Put the next missions screen there, so that new players know what to reach to next. (And old also, because why not. It doesn't hurt to have it.)

 

And! If they find CODEX is mainly full of USELESS or INSANELY CONFUSING information (As it now in my opinion), and it's hard to access between missions. (As it is) Player needs to always find out from outside source a lot of stuff, and that is totally not good thing. Because it requires extra effort and thus encourages to just letting go. That can also lead player to stop logging in ever again.

EVERYTHING that is in the warframe wiki should be in CODEX in the way it is introduced in the wiki.

 

 

Those are my thoughts.. so..

Please comment what are your thoughts about all, or any of this.

Thank you: - Ryuurik

[(PSN)JohnWickHitman]

Nope....

 

My quitting came on the fact that you are REQUIRED to keep changing weapons and warframes to level, otherwise you are stuck FOREVER at an MR as the gain is MICROSCOPIC....

 

I wanted to play my way, but to level, I'm forced to play a BS way, which I hate.

 

Then there is the GRIND out this, GRIND out that BS, which most of SUCKS NUTS!

I hate fishing, I hate hunting, I hate RJ, WORLD EVENTS suck unless you got friends to assist you(remember, I'm stuck at a low MR, because I play my way), otherwise you can't do them, to do anything in game pretty much, you need to spend hours on at a time, unless you want to copy meta, and run "efficiently", play your way takes forever.....

 

List goes on, but you get the idea. Unless you want to play EXACTLY like every other person, copy meta, and spend hours on end in game per session, this game is a big fat MF'n joke of a grindfest, most of which sucks nuts/bugs out/or is just annoying!

 

This is why people move on....

 

Casuals want to beat the game, not make it their second J-O-B!

 

Thanks, but no thanks....keep it!

[AConfusedBird]

whenever i try to get a friend to join warframe, i always, ALWAYS have to tell them, "the worst part of the game is they don't explain anything. if you have a question come ask me and i'll help you figure it out."

games... shouldn't work like that. you shouldn't have to require a veteran player to guide you through the game mechanics just for them to make sense. i LOVE warframe, i love the lore, i really enjoy the gameplay, the visuals are appealing, and i enjoy a good power trip as much as anyone. i want other people to be able to enjoy it too! i just wish DE would actually put some effort into making things clear, rather than leave it up to vets to mentor new players...

[xRekei]

"Casuals want to beat the game, not make it their second J-O-B!" What are they trying to beat? It's not a single player story driven game it's an online looter shooter at its core there's nothing to beat or finish the grind is endless and either you like it or you don't.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Grind like the best or quit like the rest. 

[ReaverKane]

36 minutes ago, AConfusedBird said:

whenever i try to get a friend to join warframe, i always, ALWAYS have to tell them, "the worst part of the game is they don't explain anything. if you have a question come ask me and i'll help you figure it out."

games... shouldn't work like that. you shouldn't have to require a veteran player to guide you through the game mechanics just for them to make sense. i LOVE warframe, i love the lore, i really enjoy the gameplay, the visuals are appealing, and i enjoy a good power trip as much as anyone. i want other people to be able to enjoy it too! i just wish DE would actually put some effort into making things clear, rather than leave it up to vets to mentor new players...

Honestly, after starting Destiny 2 a couple weeks ago... Warframe is AWESOME by comparison in terms of new player experience.
The new quest does a better job of explaining the fundametals. And from what i remember when i started the game does point you towards the kubrow quest, and what not.
Maybe a Voice Over from the Lotus after Vor's prize ends pointing the players towards unlocking the start chart and the Junctions, then as they go through the Junctions they start realizing that they are unlocking new quests.

I mean, lets face it, everyone with thousands of hours here started out clueless, and they managed... Not everything has to be spoon-fed to players. There's also some fun to be had from learning things, and if you can't, you just join a clan, the game is meant to have a social aspect. Maybe that way we stop having so many "but mah solo" single-player clans.

[Galuf]

Well, tbh I enjoyed the start of the game at the steam release and the new version is kind of ugraded. However the struggle for new and returning players is tremendous, mostly because of the layer of systems they have to deal with. Horizontality is a big issue for games that are aging.

[DeccanTraps]

1 hour ago, (PS4)JohnWickHitman said:

Nope....

 

My quitting came on the fact that you are REQUIRED to keep changing weapons and warframes to level, otherwise you are stuck FOREVER at an MR as the gain is MICROSCOPIC....

 

I wanted to play my way, but to level, I'm forced to play a BS way, which I hate.

 

Then there is the GRIND out this, GRIND out that BS, which most of SUCKS NUTS!

I hate fishing, I hate hunting, I hate RJ, WORLD EVENTS suck unless you got friends to assist you(remember, I'm stuck at a low MR, because I play my way), otherwise you can't do them, to do anything in game pretty much, you need to spend hours on at a time, unless you want to copy meta, and run "efficiently", play your way takes forever.....

 

List goes on, but you get the idea. Unless you want to play EXACTLY like every other person, copy meta, and spend hours on end in game per session, this game is a big fat MF'n joke of a grindfest, most of which sucks nuts/bugs out/or is just annoying!

 

This is why people move on....

 

Casuals want to beat the game, not make it their second J-O-B!

 

Thanks, but no thanks....keep it!

So you want to access all the content, but you want to ignore most of it (weapons, frames) and you don't want to copy the meta flavour of the month... But you also don't want to try new things? But you expect to cope with events and other content pitched at better established players?

And you are calling all this an issue with the new player experience?

Just making sure I read all that right.

[AConfusedBird]

1 hour ago, ReaverKane said:

Honestly, after starting Destiny 2 a couple weeks ago... Warframe is AWESOME by comparison in terms of new player experience.
The new quest does a better job of explaining the fundametals. And from what i remember when i started the game does point you towards the kubrow quest, and what not.
Maybe a Voice Over from the Lotus after Vor's prize ends pointing the players towards unlocking the start chart and the Junctions, then as they go through the Junctions they start realizing that they are unlocking new quests.

I mean, lets face it, everyone with thousands of hours here started out clueless, and they managed... Not everything has to be spoon-fed to players. There's also some fun to be had from learning things, and if you can't, you just join a clan, the game is meant to have a social aspect. Maybe that way we stop having so many "but mah solo" single-player clans.

you're right, everyone who's played thousands of hours got through the game one way or another. here's what i've noticed: either those players each had vets helping THEM out when THEY first started (like me!), or those players ARE the vets that have been around since the game first launched (like a surprising number of people still on the forums. props to you folks). 

because what DE does is explains new stuff in news posts, devstreams, and the like, so that every tenno who's currently playing can learn how things work via those sources. but then DE... doesn't put any of that info in the game anywhere. the tutorial/new player experience goes through some incredibly basic systems (movement, switching weapons, very basic parkour, using your powers), but once you finish the quest, you're dumped in your orbiter with a lot of new things to look at and not a lot of direction. i had to have the mod system explained to me (and i still am not very good at it, ymmv), someone had to tell me i could practice mastery rank tests in the relays, the ingame info about health types, shield types, armor types, weaknesses and resistances is never actually explained to you, you have to go digging around in the codex to find the most basic answers. and nobody in game tells you that the codex even exists and has those answers for you!

and that's not even touching things like the lich system, which has just as little explanation as anything else. the number of MR 5 players i've seen on this forum going "wtf is this lich dude hes super hard and annoying! how do i kill him???" is... a lot. 

it's just an incredibly complex game with nearly eight years of ongoing developmental changes, and the dev team has not made it a priority to actually provide explanations or guides for any of those changes in the game itself. 

edited to add: obviously, there are going to be players that take to these systems like a duck to water. some people are just a lot cleverer than i am, and that's ok with me! the source of my frustration is that DE seems to expect everyone to magically understand everything. sorry to disappoint the team, DE, but some of us just aren't that smart or good at video games. and i think we deserve a fair chance to enjoy the world and story you've crafted. 

[DeccanTraps]

Exactly. I mean I come from more of a pen and paper background but I'm used to games that actually take time to explain things in game.

[Vyra]

Problem is, DE seems to think its Fun to use the Wiki all the time.

In general it seems they and most vets expect anyone to wiki-search every bit and watch every stream.

I miss times in gaming where the games provided Lore and Quest info without the need of a wiki or Stream.

 

Its not a DE only problem, but its very intense on here.

[Justice_Ember]

3 hours ago, (PS4)JohnWickHitman said:

(remember, I'm stuck at a low MR, because I play my way)

Yeah sorry mate but as someone who also plays "his" way there is a price to pay for that, so if you are doing it your way it stands to reason that it will be harder than going the "regular" route

 

3 hours ago, AConfusedBird said:

you shouldn't have to require a veteran player to guide you through the game mechanics just for them to make sense.

I absolutely agree, I mean I did enjoy the lore dump from youtubers but that shouldnt be it.

 

 

[ReaverKane]

7 hours ago, AConfusedBird said:

you're right, everyone who's played thousands of hours got through the game one way or another. here's what i've noticed: either those players each had vets helping THEM out when THEY first started (like me!), or those players ARE the vets that have been around since the game first launched (like a surprising number of people still on the forums. props to you folks). 

because what DE does is explains new stuff in news posts, devstreams, and the like, so that every tenno who's currently playing can learn how things work via those sources. but then DE... doesn't put any of that info in the game anywhere. the tutorial/new player experience goes through some incredibly basic systems (movement, switching weapons, very basic parkour, using your powers), but once you finish the quest, you're dumped in your orbiter with a lot of new things to look at and not a lot of direction. i had to have the mod system explained to me (and i still am not very good at it, ymmv), someone had to tell me i could practice mastery rank tests in the relays, the ingame info about health types, shield types, armor types, weaknesses and resistances is never actually explained to you, you have to go digging around in the codex to find the most basic answers. and nobody in game tells you that the codex even exists and has those answers for you!

and that's not even touching things like the lich system, which has just as little explanation as anything else. the number of MR 5 players i've seen on this forum going "wtf is this lich dude hes super hard and annoying! how do i kill him???" is... a lot. 

it's just an incredibly complex game with nearly eight years of ongoing developmental changes, and the dev team has not made it a priority to actually provide explanations or guides for any of those changes in the game itself. 

edited to add: obviously, there are going to be players that take to these systems like a duck to water. some people are just a lot cleverer than i am, and that's ok with me! the source of my frustration is that DE seems to expect everyone to magically understand everything. sorry to disappoint the team, DE, but some of us just aren't that smart or good at video games. and i think we deserve a fair chance to enjoy the world and story you've crafted. 

Not my case, for example... I AM NOW one of the vets that helps people, but when i started it was me and my brother against the game.
We did have a couple of friends that played before us, but it was more the case that WE taught them stuff, not the other way around. Like for example, one guy that played since the beta days (i started in 2016) didn't know that he had to grind up weapons and frames to get MR.

But yes, the game has a pretty lame UI, and could use more helpers in-game, but some systems are meant to be more esotheric, like the armour functions, which are somewhat advanced.
The Modding system, really should have a guided tutorial with those broken mods to help figure it out. I know there's some dialogue in that direction, but something with a bit more oomph.

[Ryuurik]

19 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

Maybe a Voice Over from the Lotus after Vor's prize ends pointing the players towards unlocking the start chart and the Junctions, then as they go through the Junctions they start realizing that they are unlocking new quests.

Well.. I'm not sure if it would help much if Lotus would point out to open some star chart, because it's good to remember, that whole star chart is a big job to do. So that's why i think it would be better to introduce it with smaller parts. That's why guiding towards next junction would be a way better idea.

However, i'm not sure if that would fill the feeling of emptiness and wouldn't answer all the so many questions.

 

 

Feeling of threat/pressure to fill emptiness?

Only time that feeling of threat is introduced before start of mission is at the beginning of the game.

After Vor's prize, there is not really a feeling between missions that would give some pressure to continue. ”Its like pulse that creates a flow of blood in your body. If you lose pressure, you have lost the pulse.” That's at least what i feel like.

By getting rid of Vor you have eliminated only threat you have, so there is no need to help your self. I have noticed that almost everything after that is mostly helping others, although by some extent it helps you also, but initially its helping someone else and thus is not necessarily too interesting in the first place. To trigger the instinct to fight on, we need the feeling to needing to help our self to be somewhat continuous. But where to find that feeling? I don't know.

 

If i take Heart of deimos mission as an example.

Spoiler

 

It starts again by helping others, but there is a threat at a same time that we might lose our power. (That's good. Now we have a pressure we need, so we want to continue.) We continue the mission and in the end we lose our power, or almost anyway. (That is great also. Pressure has increased. I actually got elevated pulse when playing this part.) Very soon though, it was already fixed, which is of course inevitable, but in the end we lose the pressure, and thus got really weak flow between missions. There is still lot to do after that, but i feel that its not too interesting. Family is introduced really fast and they have various extras to offer if you work for them. It's sadly all just a fill and there is nothing really threatening me anymore, making it a bit meh..

 

So my question would be:

Any ideas how to increase the feeling of pressure/excitement between the missions?

That kind of slight constant pressure would for sure trigger players to continue longer and maybe get a better hang of it. Not only for beginners, but maybe also for more experienced players.

[HoustonDragon]

If I didn't have friends who were already playing and established, it probably would have discouraged me early on. While there is a fantastic level of customization and modifications available, sometimes TOO much is overwhelming, especially when both the lack of in-game tutorials and often outdated and/or just wrong online information is also not clearly concise for answers.

 

I had ZERO idea the sheer volume of weapon blueprints that were on the Market available for credits just to grind for mastery gains. My friends were fortunate enough to direct me to finish the Second Dream/War Within storylines, but there were several times where I simply tagged along for things like Eidolon hunts or affinity grinding without much clue what was going on. While there are some great things like Overframe, it's also pretty daunting when the vast majority of "advice" tends to expect brand new players to have fully maxed Primed or extremely rare mods available.

 

There's so much trial and error that can critically vary depending on what mods you have or don't that seriously affect your gameplay and enjoyment. A perfect example would be Adaptation, imo, since without it, stuff pretty much can mow a lot of squishy frames down without giving players the opportunity to really explore and test. There's a bajillion weapons available, but without knowing the mods or why you're using them, means the difference of completing or failing missions. Even the Mastery tests are often set up where a meta cheese version is primarily the way to solve it, versus addressing a particular game balance.

 

Personally, I think new players should start with a base package of intro mods (common/uncommon) to at least have some familiarity and understanding in their use. It would also help to be a little less stingy with low level Endo and credits, as it's all to easy to burn up on ranking starter mods and finding themselves dry. Maybe some more introduction quests to help walk through the basic systems on Earth/Venus to better explain and also tie back into the Cetus/Fortuna storyline hubs for newer players to have a baseline reference, especially towards introducing the later Amp systems.

[Wearbe]

I had a person I knew in RL who simply told me to just concentrate on unlocking the entire Star Chart before worrying about anything else.

That was pretty much all the advice I needed.  By unlocking the Star Chart, I got introduced to pretty much everything that I needed to just "play".  It made sense to me to also pump out weapons and frames as I went along, because I was going to be gaining Affinity as I went, so why not.  That part seems self-explanatory to anyone who has ever played a game with XP. Then, over time, as I had questions or came up against something that stopped my progress, I asked chat questions and looked stuff up on the Wiki.  It was a slow, consistent process... not like study the manual and then start the game.  However, I do agree that a progression of some kind might be a good idea.  Brand new people should not be on the open worlds and there should be some kind of story element that explains why AND points them in the direction they should be going (clearing the Star Chart).

Putting all the info that is on the Wiki INTO the game is a bad idea. They have a hard enough time getting bug fixes into the game.  Can you imagine trying to keep track of all the content in the wiki and keep that updated in-game?

[Wearbe]

14 minutes ago, HoustonDragon said:

... especially when both the lack of in-game tutorials and often outdated and/or just wrong online information is also not clearly concise for answers.

Outdated info was especially troublesome for me in the beginning.  I learned pretty quickly to filter my searches to within the last few months... and later, when I became aware of update releases, I'd filter back to the release date only.  I wasted a lot of hours watching worthless videos on Youtube from 4 years ago, LoL.

[Ryuurik]

12 minutes ago, Wearbe said:

Putting all the info that is on the Wiki INTO the game is a bad idea. They have a hard enough time getting bug fixes into the game.  Can you imagine trying to keep track of all the content in the wiki and keep that updated in-game?

Just putting each item to CODEX and providing the link to wiki that opens with your PC, or PS4 or whatever is your platform deafult browser would already be time saver and woudn't require too much effort from DE to do 🤔

[HoustonDragon]

13 minutes ago, Wearbe said:

Outdated info was especially troublesome for me in the beginning.  I learned pretty quickly to filter my searches to within the last few months... and later, when I became aware of update releases, I'd filter back to the release date only.  I wasted a lot of hours watching worthless videos on Youtube from 4 years ago, LoL.

I was so mad when I kept seeing Channeling referenced for melee, only to find out the entire system got scrapped :P

[Kconvey]

The new player experience is also just horrible and tedious, and thats from someone who has past it

I would rather rip off my own arms and legs than start over again and work through it, like on the switch or something. 

[Hayrack]

2 hours ago, Wearbe said:

I had a person I knew in RL who simply told me to just concentrate on unlocking the entire Star Chart before worrying about anything else.

That was pretty much all the advice I needed.  By unlocking the Star Chart, I got introduced to pretty much everything that I needed to just "play".  It made sense to me to also pump out weapons and frames as I went along, because I was going to be gaining Affinity as I went, so why not.  That part seems self-explanatory to anyone who has ever played a game with XP. Then, over time, as I had questions or came up against something that stopped my progress, I asked chat questions and looked stuff up on the Wiki.  It was a slow, consistent process... not like study the manual and then start the game.  However, I do agree that a progression of some kind might be a good idea.  Brand new people should not be on the open worlds and there should be some kind of story element that explains why AND points them in the direction they should be going (clearing the Star Chart).

Putting all the info that is on the Wiki INTO the game is a bad idea. They have a hard enough time getting bug fixes into the game.  Can you imagine trying to keep track of all the content in the wiki and keep that updated in-game?

Exactly.

I spent zero money and plat (excluding starter plat) and already built my railjack, stacked on basic and rare resources, endo, ayatans, >2000 mods, including duplicates, several prime weapons, primed mods, etc. New player needs a special mindset to enjoy this game - will to learn, pursue, concentrate and phase out. Dev D-moves and game breaking bugs aside, I don't regret diving into Warframe.

Yet.