Stamina. Let's discuss.

[selig_fay]

I want to say right away that I'm not suggesting that we discuss limiting the mobility of warframes (although I think it might be a good thing in terms of gameplay, but I know that players will be angry). We are talking about stamina as an addition to the energy system. I mean, we have abilities like Atlas 1 or Zephyr 1 or Ash 1 that are basically not complex, strong (Yes, tell me how strong Atlas is), but continue to expend energy in large amounts. To be honest, I think every frame has one such ability (especially Grendel, who could spend stamina instead of energy).

What am I getting at? Let's imagine that we have a scale that has a constant recovery, but this recovery is interrupted when you perform maneuvers (like bulletjump) or use a stamina ability. Maneuvers don't waste stamina , but the ability to do it. I think this is the kind of thing that could also release some abilities a little bit, raising their effectiveness.

On top of all this, I suggest that stamina's abilities necessarily generate energy depending on the conditions and mechanics of such abilities. Of course, frames that can already do this, like Trinity, Harrow, or Garuda, don't need it anymore, but I think Trinity and Harrow could get a good benefit if their 1s didn't waste energy. 

But that's how I looked at it from the outside. I didn't analyze each frame in detail, so I think it requires a deeper analysis for each frame and interaction.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

we had stamina. its gone. let it stay gone.  and i wish they didn't re-introduce it with necramech.

 

 

[(PSN)thegarada]

Why would you have stamina for biotech drones? Thematically it makes no sense.

[Voltage]

What's the discussion? Stamina was removed for being a bad mechanic. The boost of a Railjack is clunky. The mobility of Necramechs is bad. Guess why? Stamina. It's unfun in Warframe. The only place Stamina should ever be used is in Conclave.

[TheNeonGod]

The stamina system would ruin Titania and other warframes design to go fast. Also stamina system should stay away from the sprinting part since it's barely faster than normal running without sprint mods and stamina should be only for a passive system for abilities that are not exalted abilities, only on certain warframes when necessary, Why would necramechs have a stamina system? Machines don't tire unless of the battery power or never tire at all and the Necramechs are so slow because of the stamina system.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No thank you.

[selig_fay]

I am surprised how many people have not read my first post and write their opinion about just the name of the topic. Does anyone have anything to say about the stamina system for changing abilities?

[Hobie-wan]

No.

Furthermore, I don't want another energy bar to have to keep an eye on. Granted frames like Gauss aren't a playstyle for me anyway, but having an extra gauge on them further keeps me from playing them as is.

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, selig_fay said:

What am I getting at? Let's imagine that we have a scale that has a constant recovery, but this recovery is interrupted when you perform maneuvers (like bulletjump) or use a stamina ability. Maneuvers don't waste stamina , but the ability to do it. I think this is the kind of thing that could also release some abilities a little bit, raising their effectiveness.

I think the concept for having some abilities generate energy is a solid idea. I've written as much in another thread, talking about chaining abilities (and weapons) so that, rather than abilities (and weapons) fighting over time and resources, you use one to build up the next and the next. E.g., weapon damage builds energy, energy is used for standard abilities to increment some other resource, that resource is used for the big guns.

(I had built it as weapons decreasing cooldowns on some energy-generating abilities, just so there isn't yet another gauge to look after - at least in the global sense)

However, I think tying that to mobility is an issue. Warframe is a fast-paced game that works, in large part, because of its emphasis on mobility. If mobility eats into ability usage, that discourages mobility. They fight for the same resource.

The only point where I think stamina-related-to-mobility might be acceptable is if running out of stamina does not slow the player but changes mobility in some fundamental way. For example, if bullet jumps use stamina, performing the bullet jump input when stamina is empty causes the player to use their Parazon as a grapple hook against a targeted surface. In open worlds, this might look like four lateral bullet jumps, a fifth one to gain height, and using that height to Parazon across a large distance. It doesn't slow the player (ideally stamina regain would be fast enough), but instead mixes up how they progress through a level. But that's also if that is doable, and it very well might not be - even that kind of idea might slow the player at low stamina.

[(PSN)Zelisius]

Edit: oops.. I somehow replied to the wrong topic.. Ignore me

[DrivaMain]

What makes warframe unique is the freedom of mobility. Stamina bars are against that. They should have removed boost or stamina bar from Railjack and Necramechs.

[selig_fay]

11 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The only point where I think stamina-related-to-mobility

might be acceptable is if running out of stamina does not slow the player but changes mobility in some fundamental way. For example, if bullet jumps use stamina, performing the bullet jump input when stamina is empty causes the player to use their Parazon as a grapple hook against a targeted surface. In open worlds, this might look like four lateral bullet jumps, a fifth one to gain height, and using that height to Parazon across a large distance. It doesn't slow the player (ideally stamina regain would be fast enough), but instead mixes up how they progress through a level. But that's also if that is doable, and it very well might not be - even that kind of idea might slow the player at low stamina.

As I said earlier, I'm not going to limit the player in this. Only some abilities that can become stronger through stamina regeneration, like Atlas 1, which wastes stamina and regenerates energy for its 3, which will actually make it more flexible by default.

Of course, it would be great if this system provided more features like a longer aimglide or extra jumps/bulletjumps in the air at the expense of stamina costs. This would actually make players even more mobile in some builds.

On the other hand, I don't understand the players ' hatred of it, even when you say directly that it can be done so that the players can ignore it and play the old way. I mean, for example, you can make it so that stamina has a constant regeneration of 10 units, and bulletjump costs 5 units, which is actually free.

[---Swaggi---]

Since Necramech can only be used in open worlds especially there stamina is a pain in the  a s s! 

Why does it even has it? Archwing is still fastest way to get from A to B! 

 

[selig_fay]

4 minutes ago, ---Swaggi--- said:

Since Necramech can only be used in open worlds especially there stamina is a pain in the a s s!

Why does it even has it? Archwing is still fastest way to get from A to B!

They will be available in regular missions in the future. 

[Xzorn]

Stamina in Warframe was a badly implemented mechanic not specifically a bad mechanic.

Coptering and various other tricks like butt slide timing made Stamina a pointless addition to the game.
...and before someone players the "Ninja" card (which is comical in this era of tank supremacy) Stamina only affected Running.
Not Dodge. Not Wall Running or Jumping. Old Stamina could exist on frames right now and it wouldn't matter because hardly anyone runs. That was the same case before Parkour 2.0 and it just required a little more effort.

Stamina never worked properly to begin with in this game so saying it was a bad mechanic is a little silly since it didn't really do much.

I would have preferred they used Stamina for melee Power attacks and some other powerful mobility maneuvers.
Though you may think we got the better of not having Stamina in the game; we all paid for it in lame enemy designs like Infested Ancient hooks.

[---Swaggi---]

10 hours ago, selig_fay said:

They will be available in regular missions in the future. 

 

[selig_fay]

36 minutes ago, ---Swaggi--- said:

 

Yes. The Emperor will be pleased.

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2020-09-05 at 12:51 PM, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

we had stamina. its gone. let it stay gone.  and i wish they didn't re-introduce it with necramech.

 

 

And the Railjack

[Tyreaus]

23 hours ago, selig_fay said:

As I said earlier, I'm not going to limit the player in this. Only some abilities that can become stronger through stamina regeneration, like Atlas 1, which wastes stamina and regenerates energy for its 3, which will actually make it more flexible by default.

Of course, it would be great if this system provided more features like a longer aimglide or extra jumps/bulletjumps in the air at the expense of stamina costs. This would actually make players even more mobile in some builds.

While I understand not limiting the player, if abilities benefit from stamina (even if they still work, in weaker forms, with zero stamina), then the game's design discourages either mobility or ability usage. They either start clashing, because optimal usage of one asks for less or no usage of the other, or one side is basically "free" - see: 

23 hours ago, selig_fay said:

On the other hand, I don't understand the players ' hatred of it, even when you say directly that it can be done so that the players can ignore it and play the old way. I mean, for example, you can make it so that stamina has a constant regeneration of 10 units, and bulletjump costs 5 units, which is actually free.

for example - and there's not really a point to having stamina apply to that. Like, if you make bullet jump free in this stamina system - and let's assume you make other movement-related things effectively free, too - why make the stamina system even related to mobility? At that point, you may as well isolate it to abilities only.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding or missing something on the implementation of this, though.

EDIT: Forgot to address the actual 'hatred of stamina' part. Big reason I see is the concern it'd slow the game. It didn't work well before, like Xzorn pointed out, and players are worried that, if it's done "right", it'll put the brakes on high mobility and tend the game back toward tactical stealthy shooty time.

[(PSN)fat_1_dog_me]

Thats kinda cool but its not a darksouls game so no. Sorry

[selig_fay]

8 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Forgot to address the actual 'hatred of stamina' part. Big reason I see is the concern it'd slow the game. It didn't work well before, like Xzorn pointed out, and players are worried that, if it's done "right", it'll put the brakes on high mobility and tend the game back toward tactical stealthy shooty time.

Well I think it can be done for more mobility. For example, people who say remove stamina from mech do not realize that, for example, dush can still be left under restrictions or instead of acting like a Gauss, it will just become a short dash. (At the same time, a gauss spends energy on this and for some reason people forget about it). 

As I said earlier, some things are still limited and the stamina could remove them (you can only do 1 bulletjump and 1 double jump and 1 evade in the air, your aim glide only lasts 10 seconds.) If running is good at increasing speed, then bulletjump will no longer be the main tool for movement (for example, wisp can be faster without bulletjump than with bulletjump). 

But I do not deny the fact that I want to limit player mobility. And the reason is simple, players complain that there is no content in the game, but they do not realize at all that it is very difficult to create any content when players can ignore mobs due to high mobility.