Protideus Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I am the warlord of a Moon Clan. Yesterday, a member of my clan had an innappropriate conduct on my discord so i banned him from my discord server. And then i banned him from my clan ingame. Except 15 minutes later he was back in my clan spewing nonsense in the chat. Probably messaging my members to be a nuisance. Who invited him and why ? I don't know .... or rather I CAN'T know. Was it another of his account ? a friend of his ? or just a well-meaning member ? So I had to ban him again. And then I had to take off the right to recruit from most of the Roles in my clan so that I can't be overruled. This is a real NUISANCE ! It bothers all my members who can't recruit anymore. And it bothers me who have to double check every new recruit. And the WORST : should that person have plats ... he can just rename ... post a new candidature ... and i wouldn't know. It is not the first time that something similar happens. And I am honestly fed up with this.URGENT CHANGES NEEDED :-HardBans : Sometimes I need to ban inactive players to make room for new ones. I don't mind if those players get reinvited later. But sometimes we need it to stick : so the game needs to offer the option to HardBan a member. If a warlord hardbans it should be definitive. Members trying to recruit a hardbanned player should get a message saying they cant. Banned members should not be able to access dojo even if invited for trade. and certainly should not be able to write in dojo chat. Dojos should have a blacklist , because we can't moderate invited players speaking in dojo chat. -Kicks : Kicks can be cancelled by reloging. They should work as intended -Clan Log : This needs a complete overhaul. We need a maximum of information. We should have complete History for clan chat , alliance chat and dojo chat. We should have complete History of our members : date or recruitment, previous clans , previous pseudos, date of MR rank up , info on previous passages in the clan, comments from moderators When someone is recruited or banned, we need to know by who, when , why etc... When someone changes dojo, launches research or uses clan ressources, we need to know who did , when , why etc... -Automatic promotion : My clan has some ranks that we attribute according to MR. It would be nice not to do it manually everyday.-Automatic bans : in case of long inactivity. Set by warlord.-Messaging : While a complete messaging system is unnecessary, members should have a way to contact higher ranks for complaints or suggestions, etc .. THESE CHANGES WOULD NECESSITATE A MINIMUM OF DEVELOPMENT TIME !THESE CHANGES ARE LONG OVERDUE :I personnaly wrote feedback on this and much more in a long post more than 4 years ago. And NOTHING has been done about any of it in that time : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hikuro-93 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 A full-scale dojo rework is way overdue. Been waiting for years now. Sadly other things tend to be more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I wonder "who will ban rogue warlords"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayahai Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 You forgot the obvious ability to also unban. Also getting kicked out of a clan shouldn't be called a ban because a ban implies that joining is no longer possible. If an inactive player is removed from the clan, would you want to deny that player access forever? Probably not, but a troll you would want to deny access permanently. If kicks can be cancelled by relogging they are not really kicks but time-outs. So yeah better names would also be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Protideus said: I don't know .... or rather I CAN'T know. Was it another of his account ? a friend of his ? or just a well-meaning member ? So I had to ban him again. And then I had to take off the right to recruit from most of the Roles in my clan so that I can't be overruled. Why should you know? You are just a warlord (as am I) and the other members of the clan are free to do as they please according to the rights they have. If they have the right to recruit anyone they please, they have the right to recruit anyone they please. Including former members. So the alternative is to remove their right to recruit (as you have done). Since our identity in Warframe is bound to our account, and we all can have several accounts, everyone has the right to start over and/or have multiple online "personalities". Thus there is no way to ban all the accounts belonging to a certain physical person. And actually there shouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protideus Posted October 20, 2020 Author Share Posted October 20, 2020 @GraavargIts not because you can do something that you should be able to do it anonymously. Sometimes your actions can have consequences. Yes multiple accounts is a problem for which i don't have a solution .... lets start by solving the problem for which i have a solution : account renaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 @Protideus I think that you are correct in defining the problem as a "fundamental" one, since it is a question of principles. As Warlord you have full control of what your clan members can do, and also who can be a member of your clan. But it stops there, a Warlord is just a clan function, not a "god". If you want to delegate your Warlord rights and responsibilities to others, you can do so. But then you also have to accept the consequences. And the same applies even if you personally decide who gets to join, if you then allow a "name change" into the clan without further vetting that is on you. Warlords have no right to intrude on other players name changes or multiple accounts, and shouldn't have (of course). You have the right to handle some parts of how your clan functions, that is all. Just so we are talking about the same thing, when you wrote "ban" I assume you meant "kick". This is a teenyweeny bit important since "ban"-decision are limited to DE only, and DE has been pretty clear that it will stay that way. In fact, DE has also been very clear that DE considers even a "kick player from mission"-function to be "player overreach" (so it will not be implemented). My point being that Warframe is clearly meant to be a (very) inclusive game (where almost all content is even available to "noobs", directly or indirectly), so the Warlord's "power" is the outlier, not the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protideus Posted October 20, 2020 Author Share Posted October 20, 2020 I changed my game language to check : What i called 'ban' ... the game calls 'expel from clan' What you called 'ban' ... seems to be 'Account suspension' You are right : players should not be able to suspend accounts. That's not what i meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 You know you can change the clan invite settings so only you can invite, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapinHands Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 The OP has a great point.. even if his terminology is off.. instead of ban, they mean exile ( to remove from the clan never to return) this may not be an ip exile, but should be at the least a handle exile (by name) even if it was something as simple as linking the warlords (report list to the clan).. after all i have a duty to the members of my dojo. i place a code of conduct so that other members can game without the worry of some hate speech, troll or just plain foul rant. i agree with him and the guy that pulled the "you need to define yourself" card, to change the subject of the post.. is probably the guy he kicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesthier Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 8 hours ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said: I wonder "who will ban rogue warlords"? Lawful peacelords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie-wan Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 *laughs in solo clan* But seriously, excommunicating people without having to worry they sneak back in because someone else didn't know they were kicked for being a jerk and not just inactivity would be a good thing for larger clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Nice with a discussion about a small but principle-wise important question. My "gut feeling" is also that you should be able to "exile" a toxic player from a clan, but that is only one side of the coin. The other side is how such an increased power would/could be used by a toxic and power-crazy warlord. Building a clan and a dojo together with other people is, by default, a coop effort (that you also can build a dojo solo doesn't matter, since that is another thing in this context). So, if a player has spent hours upon hours collecting resources for a dojo, is it then correct for a Warlord to kick this player for not following "orders"? Like paying plat to include a clan tag in the player name, or not joining "mandatory" missions. Or even for not paying some sort of extra "tax" (mods, plat, rivens etc., collected by the Warlord for "distribution")? Unfortunately, such things also happen, and giving all Warlords even more power (in this case in the form of "perma-exile") would empower such a**holes even more. So, while my basic opinion is that toxic and abusive sh*ts, leechers and scripters should be perma-banned from the whole game forever (and preferably tattooed with "BANNED FROM WARFRAME" on their IRL forehead), I still think that giving Warlords more power is a bad thing. Because while such power could be used for "good", it can also be used for "bad". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BahamutKaiser Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 There isn't any safeguard for abusive clan leaders, and abusive authority is always more of a hazard than abusive participants. There's probably some good ways to fix your problem, but it doesn't sound like a priority. Sounds like the only thing you need is a record of who invited members, and discipline between leaders. This is something you can do manually by having leaders send PMs to you listing all invitees, and charging them with addressing dissension on their own. You can also publish a ban list and update it. Ultimately, if someone is inviting dissentful members to your clan, clan cohesion is lacking. DE doesn't need to manufacture tools to fix your social problems, you can take responsibility for your clan and come up with solutions yourself, or shrink to the responsibilities you can fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protideus Posted October 21, 2020 Author Share Posted October 21, 2020 Of course safeguards already exist against bad warlords ... DE support does act when given evidence. I know of a particular case where a warlord received an ingame message telling them to cease their bad behavior or see their account suspended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saghzs Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 On 2020-10-20 at 1:36 PM, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said: I wonder "who will ban rogue warlords"? Simple, leave the clan and find people that are nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oorel Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 There should definitely be moderation tools for clans, including a lot of logs that can easily be browsed by some clan roles. Doesn't even need to be in-game, could be part of warframe.com too. For being such an important system, dojo's and clans are shockingly dated. DE even runs clan decoration events and haven't touched the system for ages. Its very strange to let it decay like they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)camwyn-xenos Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Founder Warlords are the only clan members not removalable by anyone else but DE, they can stand down and promote someone else to there position. This feature should stay as is. Everything else is controled by the warlord and the players he gives control to. Chat bans/ time outs is an ok feature stops things getting out of hand and clan/ alliance chat should remain away from DE kickbot control sorry but leader/clan chat moderators have some resposablitys. My mods are asked to warn and then screen shot the offenses and post to me the reason for chat bans within clan and alliance. This also balances the moderators. Removal of inactive players is not banning, it shows active clan management, personaly i set 1st of the month as promote, demote, kick date just makes life easy and all know were we stand. However i would like more information available like joining dates, i promote on time in clan and contributions to clan and more data on these things would make that better (joining date, last contribution date, last decoration for those that do decoration). Why should a high mr that gives nothing get higher rank than someone who invested time and resource into my clan this is my view, others do different. (This is for clan leaders only and keeped in there own Clan) Data on kicked players should be available to be attached to clan management some how and if they change name that should be tracked, sometimes players Don't fit your clan it doesn't mean there bad just not right for you theres a whole lot of reasons. Clan management data should be available for upto a year if someone leaves or are removed by leaders Clan management data screen in its current format shows very little information most of which in is way out of date, ie last corridor added or item researched this data irrelevant for older established Clans but joining dates aren't. Something thats also wrong is how invited but none joining members show the same thing as removed from clan by x even though they never took up the invite. Invited is not clan members only key holders are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)camwyn-xenos Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 It would also be nice to have a place inside the games ui to post clan rules, promotion policy etc. Motd should not be this space, currently we have to use a clan members invite community page on psn for this not ideal as not everyone wants to join which is fare enough. I believe each clan should be able to rule its own internal policy. But posting such should be within the game. Not on 3rd party space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie-wan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 17 hours ago, Graavarg said: The other side is how such an increased power would/could be used by a toxic and power-crazy warlord. If the clan leader turns out to be a jerk or implements crummy rules, why would you want to stay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 7 hours ago, Hobie-wan said: If the clan leader turns out to be a jerk or implements crummy rules, why would you want to stay? Because you used a lot of time, resources and effort to build, research and pimp the dojo maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie-wan Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Graavarg said: Because you used a lot of time, resources and effort to build, research and pimp the dojo maybe... Learn to let go and move on. Don't fall into a variation of the sunk cost fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Hobie-wan said: Learn to let go and move on. Don't fall into a variation of the sunk cost fallacy. I fail to see how that connects to giving Warlords potentially abusive power. Since it seems to focus more on the victim than on the perpetrator. Of course, that is not unusual in itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protideus Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 @GraavargTrolls exist ... you can't deny it ! We need the tools to keep them away.... it is as simple as that. You can't let trolls run free and do whatever they want for the 1 in a million case where a warlord may ban a good person. Players who give ressources in a dojo are told by the game that it is irreversible ... if you lost ressources that way ... accept your loss and move on ! Find a good clan led by good people and have fun playing Warframe ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I haven't had to deal with this yet but, it would be nice to have the tools to fight this when it does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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