Operation: Orphix Venom - Lavos Feedback Megathread (Read First Post)

[TKDancer]

the proxima buffs, while not bad, did not in any well fix the issues with the frame

transmutation probe really should be made to cost health with 0 cooldown so it remains a cooldown-reducing status-spreading skill but give lavos' kit some form of consistency that meshes well with his tankyness and self-healing


as it stands the ridiculously long cooldowns with no way to consistently reduce them makes him so... makes him feel really bad to play, specially due to the decision to keep efficiency only affecting the transmutation CD reduction instead of actually directly reducing cooldowns

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-03-29 at 6:35 AM, TKDancer said:

the proxima buffs, while not bad, did not in any well fix the issues with the frame

transmutation probe really should be made to cost health with 0 cooldown so it remains a cooldown-reducing status-spreading skill but give lavos' kit some form of consistency that meshes well with his tankyness and self-healing


as it stands the ridiculously long cooldowns with no way to consistently reduce them makes him so... makes him feel really bad to play, specially due to the decision to keep efficiency only affecting the transmutation CD reduction instead of actually directly reducing cooldowns

There is an undocumented change that made all the change he really needed aside from the CD reduction baseline increase on transmute. And that undocumented change is that he can now use transmute while other skills are still active, so if you use catalyze and transmute back to back instantly you'll gain full benefit from transmutes CD reduction even if catalyze is still in duration. Same goes for buff skills like roar and CC's like radial blind and breach surge. Even with negative efficiency it is very easy to keep your skills going at a steady rate with that change, You simply invest in range instead.

Sure, he still struggles to cast often in less dense missions, but in endless, especially in steel path, he can cast regularly with little downtime. And being able to have roar as a permanent buff with no downtime is wonderful.

[Rauvian]

On 2021-03-31 at 5:33 AM, SneakyErvin said:

There is an undocumented change that made all the change he really needed aside from the CD reduction baseline increase on transmute. And that undocumented change is that he can now use transmute while other skills are still active, so if you use catalyze and transmute back to back instantly you'll gain full benefit from transmutes CD reduction even if catalyze is still in duration. Same goes for buff skills like roar and CC's like radial blind and breach surge. Even with negative efficiency it is very easy to keep your skills going at a steady rate with that change, You simply invest in range instead.

Sure, he still struggles to cast often in less dense missions, but in endless, especially in steel path, he can cast regularly with little downtime. And being able to have roar as a permanent buff with no downtime is wonderful.

I'm sorry but Lavos is far from ok.

1) Hits like a wet noodle and not that often. There is an ability that is almost identical to this one that performs 100x better. Why does this exist in its current form?

2) Movement is OK but none of the other effects are worth it.

3) Doesnt even feel like an ability but a maintenance ability to support this gimmicky kit

4) Yeah it does good damage, but I can name half a dozen frames that can do comparable damage and do so all day.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-04-01 at 8:39 PM, Rauvian said:

I'm sorry but Lavos is far from ok.

1) Hits like a wet noodle and not that often. There is an ability that is almost identical to this one that performs 100x better. Why does this exist in its current form?

2) Movement is OK but none of the other effects are worth it.

3) Doesnt even feel like an ability but a maintenance ability to support this gimmicky kit

4) Yeah it does good damage, but I can name half a dozen frames that can do comparable damage and do so all day.

With negative efficiency, high strength and nearly max range both his 3 and 4 are devastating. Replace his #2 with roar, larva, thermal sunder, breach surge or flame blast. I run roar for high content like hours in Steel Path, for lowbie missions I tend to use thermal sunder or flame blast since together with his 3 they wipe everything out and you can cast often. You can also dump strength for lowbie missions for neutral efficiency instead, so you can cool down easier, especially in groups.

His one is weak though, but how many #1 skills are actually strong? I would use his 2 and replace his 1 if they ever fix it so his 2 doesnt cancel sprint.

The only thing he really needs now is either letting his skills auto use a certain element on cast if none is selected, or let us simply toggle which element is used permanently until manually cancled in some way.

[TKDancer]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

With negative efficiency, high strength and nearly max range both his 3 and 4 are devastating.

in isolated scenarios like the simulacrum? sure

but in actual missions he leaves a lot to be desired, his casting mechanics are awful and give him 0 consistency, even in an ideal situation of instantly resetting your catalyze's cooldown with transmutation, you'll still have to wait for transmutation's full cooldown after the 2nd cast

catalyze by itself isnt even that great of an ability since it leaves no lasting AoE or cover enemies with gel as one would expect from smth that is supposedly spraying chemical gel: you need multiple status to make that dmg scale well into sortie/SP content and u have very little freedom with casting it due to base 30sec CD

"he can do steel path!" is not an actual defense as it has been demonstrated that a tanky frame can do steel path by just spamming quick melee as you go, and lavos is pretty tanky
also if i can use another caster frame and have an even better time maybe there is an issue


i'm honestly very confused about lavos cause DE had a LOT of time(over 3 months) to look at feedback and the changes they actually made after all this time seemingly dont reflect any of it, while they were all improvements of a kind none address the core issues of the frame's design: base CDs still bad(and still not affected by Eff, leading into the next issue), too much reliance on TP which still has a 10s cooldown(an 'eternity' in regular WF combat) and STILL cant proc repeatedly on enemies within its AoE

ironically the CDs they give to Railjack battle-mod abilities when using a lavos are considerably more forgiving and feel much better than his own kit's cooldowns(10 sec CD on seeker volley > 30 sec CD on catalyze)

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, TKDancer said:

in isolated scenarios like the simulacrum? sure

but in actual missions he leaves a lot to be desired, his casting mechanics are awful and give him 0 consistency, even in an ideal situation of instantly resetting your catalyze's cooldown with transmutation, you'll still have to wait for transmutation's full cooldown after the 2nd cast

catalyze by itself isnt even that great of an ability since it leaves no lasting AoE or cover enemies with gel as one would expect from smth that is supposedly spraying chemical gel: you need multiple status to make that dmg scale well into sortie/SP content and u have very little freedom with casting it due to base 30sec CD

"he can do steel path!" is not an actual defense as it has been demonstrated that a tanky frame can do steel path by just spamming quick melee as you go, and lavos is pretty tanky
also if i can use another caster frame and have an even better time maybe there is an issue


i'm honestly very confused about lavos cause DE had a LOT of time(over 3 months) to look at feedback and the changes they actually made after all this time seemingly dont reflect any of it, while they were all improvements of a kind none address the core issues of the frame's design: base CDs still bad(and still not affected by Eff, leading into the next issue), too much reliance on TP which still has a 10s cooldown(an 'eternity' in regular WF combat) and STILL cant proc repeatedly on enemies within its AoE

ironically the CDs they give to Railjack battle-mod abilities when using a lavos are considerably more forgiving and feel much better than his own kit's cooldowns(10 sec CD on seeker volley > 30 sec CD on catalyze)

Why assume sim when I said hours in steel path? While other tanks can also melee for success, Lavos allows you to clear full spawns quite regularly with catalyze, which brings him to the top of the most tanky frames. This also improves acolyte spawn intervals, which means more essence. I love my Grendel, but he can only melee. Lavos is about as durable and just packs alot more offense. I cant really care if he doesnt work in lowbie content, since I tend to run something far more mindless there just to get it over with as fast as possibly.

It is extremely easy since the patch to keep his CDs low constantly thanks to being able to invest more in range etc. without having to think a bit about efficiency.

 

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why assume sim when I said hours in steel path?

 

21 hours ago, TKDancer said:

"he can do steel path!" is not an actual defense as it has been demonstrated that a tanky frame can do steel path by just spamming quick melee as you go, and lavos is pretty tanky
also if i can use another caster frame and have an even better time maybe there is an issue

 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is extremely easy since the patch to keep his CDs low constantly thanks to being able to invest more in range etc.

the abilities with cooldowns that actually matter are: the ability with 30 base cooldown(that has other issues besides said cooldown, as already discussed) and the one with 10 base cooldown that happens to also be the ability fully responsible for cooldown management that cant affect itself and doesnt get its cooldown reduced by efficiency

[Rauvian]

The thing about stacking range on Lavos is it'll only get you so far.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-04-04 at 4:33 AM, TKDancer said:

the abilities with cooldowns that actually matter are: the ability with 30 base cooldown(that has other issues besides said cooldown, as already discussed) and the one with 10 base cooldown that happens to also be the ability fully responsible for cooldown management that cant affect itself and doesnt get its cooldown reduced by efficiency

I dont really see how that matters though since he is also a heavy tank. The rotation around his heavy hitters works well now. You dont have very long gaps between the cast, since you dont need them 24/7 to perform well. And with helminth as a choice you have alot of options to give him further offensive strength well beyond all other heavier tanks. You dont waste ability power or range on him for instance, so you can have either a nice amount of more tankyness through a freely chosen skill, or that much more damage output from it.

Like I said, he brings everything other tanks do, but he also brings full map clearing potential. Everyone else of the heavier tanks only bring their defenses and rely on melee 24/7 more or less. So he is well balanced in between casters that needs to avoid damage or cheese shield gate, and tanks that simply stand there and take it with zero aoe potential. I'd pick Lavos over either, since he is forgiving enough in the thick of it and he wipes full spawns of enemies in a single button click on a fairly regular basis. He should probably be the model for a tank imo, something that DE should aim for with Inaros, Grendel and Atlas for instance. 

3 hours ago, Rauvian said:

The thing about stacking range on Lavos is it'll only get you so far.

Which is why you stack it together with strength and some defense mods for a good balanced build.

[TKDancer]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont really see how that matters though since he is also a heavy tank.

if theres one thing this game does not lack it is tank frames, most of which dont have the clunkyness lavos has, even the likes of inaros and chroma, both of which really need reworks have a better flow before even accounting for helminth simply because they dont have clunky cooldowns and are able to just use efficiency-oriented builds

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The rotation around his heavy hitters works well now.

no it does not as it still relies on 1(read:one) ability with a static 10 second cooldown that cannot be reduced in any way, shape or form, it also depends a LOT on enemy spawns and positioning(if you didnt inject an ability like ensnare or larvae that is), too much in fact

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Like I said, he brings everything other tanks do, but he also brings full map clearing potential

he very much does not have "map clearing potential" in content that matters(read: where i wouldnt just bring an ember, saryn or volt to do actual map clearing), he can kill groups, specially tightly packed ones with catalyze, but without stacking statuses on enemies for the exponential damage doubling, which you will not be doing in that big of an area, specially not by yourself, catalyze's damage is subpar at best, insignificant at worst when it comes to higher level content since it does not have natural scaling(like grasp of lohk)

[Rauvian]

This frame is forgotten. NOTHING in the new patch.

[XaoGarrent]

On 2021-04-13 at 6:34 PM, Rauvian said:

This frame is forgotten. NOTHING in the new patch.

Not just that, but they actually nerfed him by accident in the previous patch lol

They added double cast prevention to his 2, which actively prevents you from quick casting just for the vials, or making short, precision dashes.  

...And they didn't even fix the bug where it cancels sprint. His main mobility skill still cancels sprint. Why. Just why.

So much wasted potential in this frame.

[Caidezes]

Still nothing for the old alchemist, huh? I really want to main him, but he's so clunky to play even if you just want to use each ability's default element. He's so close to being great and that's what irks me.

[Rauvian]

Couldn't agree more. 

15 hours ago, Caidezes said:

Still nothing for the old alchemist, huh? I really want to main him, but he's so clunky to play even if you just want to use each ability's default element. He's so close to being great and that's what irks me.

Couldn't agree more. His 1 make sense it just needs to be relevant, his 2 is a movement ability just keep refining it, his 3 is clunky as all get out, and his 4 while effective when you can use it is so limited compared to the frequency of other nukes. (but this is fixable too)

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Lavos has a lack of versatility.

his only trait is his access to every element in the game except Void. but he doesn't do a lot with them other than status damage.

like, you could've went so far with this warframe, he's an alchemist, he can basically manipulate matter to transmute it's molecular structure and turn them into anything he desires.

1. you could've made him transmute resources and turn them into other type of resources, making him a very valuable resource farmer.

2.you could've gave him the ability to change his current weapon's damage types into the elemental damage he's using in his passive....making him top tier choice for profit taker. or other bosses.

 

i have no problems with not buffing lavos' ability stats further, i'm happy with the recent changes. 

but look at garuda, she can do exactly what lavos can do, in the same exact potential range, but she can also heal allies, shield herself, and buff weapons.

Right now, a Warframe is considered good not for their ability to kill things, but for the amount of tasks they can do with their kit 

[CerealPlayer]

Do you people even Lavos?

 

Lavos has become my go-to frame for any SP mission outside defense/mob-defense/interception. He is probably the tankiest frame in the game (considering all possible enemies). His abilities are amazingly strong against enemies that matter: SP tanky mobs, acolytes, etc. And, of course, he's the best RJ pilot bar-none.

Yes, I would like his 2 to not break sprint. And... that's about it really.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

19 hours ago, CerealPlayer said:

Do you people even Lavos?

 

Lavos has become my go-to frame for any SP mission outside defense/mob-defense/interception. He is probably the tankiest frame in the game (considering all possible enemies). His abilities are amazingly strong against enemies that matter: SP tanky mobs, acolytes, etc. And, of course, he's the best RJ pilot bar-none.

Yes, I would like his 2 to not break sprint. And... that's about it really.

Do you even other frames?

Lavos is not that tanky when you compare him to how tanky other frames like Nezha, Nidus, and Gauss, Baruuk can become.

His abilities aren’t that strong. The only ability that is strong is his 4, but the method of which it gets that strong requires Cedo because the rest of his abilities don’t cover the same range as his 4.

And due to his cooldowns in favor of energy. Despite the fact that his 4 can hit super hard. It still gets out damaged by most frames because those other frames don’t have to wait 30 seconds to cast their damage option and can keep using their damage options.

 

[TKDancer]

On 2021-04-22 at 12:31 PM, CerealPlayer said:

Lavos has become my go-to frame for any SP mission outside defense/mob-defense/interception.

what the hell are you talking about, what is this based one?

 

On 2021-04-22 at 12:31 PM, CerealPlayer said:

He is probably the tankiest frame in the game (considering all possible enemies)

?????? what???

 

On 2021-04-22 at 12:31 PM, CerealPlayer said:

His abilities are amazingly strong against enemies that matter

No.

[(PSN)ThanatosSloth]

I do have to say that I love lavos where he's at, he's really versatile and where you can't kill things, you can weaken and confuse them...steel path is pretty hilarious when you can just use a radiation 4 after doing 2 and 3, with other elements, and man, what you don't kill starts killing for you, and even better, most of them nolonger shoot at you.

The frame is straight forward, but the optimum build im using is a 216%power strength,250% range, 128% duration, and 45% efficiency. 5 normal forma and an umbra forma, and boy does he feel great.

My complaint at the moment is a clipping issue with his waist coat and his calves, and as some one else mentioned, the stopping sprint out of viral rush is all I know of that can really made better.

[Kalvorax]

I like Lavos.....but he honestly really only shines as an RJ Pilot or Gunner with his Cooldown instead of energy.

His 4 NEEDS verticality PLEASE!

it would be amazing for CC ( i HATE LOS checks in a horde game........) but it cant hit anything that ISNT on the same level as the player.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

I like Lavos.....but he honestly really only shines as an RJ Pilot or Gunner with his Cooldown instead of energy.

His 4 NEEDS verticality PLEASE!

it would be amazing for CC ( i HATE LOS checks in a horde game........) but it cant hit anything that ISNT on the same level as the player.

They actually added verticality to it, but it’s still not enough. If DE wants more verticality in their levels then Warframe abilities need to be effective in those environment. Catalyze should be a sphere and not an oval like it is right now.

[Kalvorax]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

They actually added verticality to it, but it’s still not enough. If DE wants more verticality in their levels then Warframe abilities need to be effective in those environment. Catalyze should be a sphere and not an oval like it is right now.

oh wow O_o didnt realize that. Goes to show how little they added then.

I tend to have a habit of being above the enemy when im throwing off AoE abilities so im not getting hit whiel casting.

[Nira]

On 2021-04-26 at 3:26 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

They actually added verticality to it, but it’s still not enough. If DE wants more verticality in their levels then Warframe abilities need to be effective in those environment. Catalyze should be a sphere and not an oval like it is right now.

That answers my long-standing question surrounding the profile of Catalyze probes. I've been trying to test their vertical profiles standing on slopes, underneath platforms... I know that after a certain height the ability just seems to miss enemies altogether.

Having them as oval hitboxes does seem somewhat unecessary considering it's not exactly a spammable ability in most scenarios, and requires a lot of priming from a Cedo or Kuva Nukor to actually do decent damage.

Overall a neat frame though.

[Kainosh]

On 2021-04-26 at 5:26 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Catalyze should be a sphere and not an oval like it is right now.

Meh. 

Augment would be a much better solution.  Coz.....I really like how it is now.  Sphere would be boring and too ez.

Some ideas:

 1)  Directional Catalyze -  Launches 3 drones in a cone where you aim.  More range and speed. Faster cast.

 2)  Catalyze Rain -   Catalyze drones create a much longer downward streams of gas. 

 3)  Catalyze Return -   Drones return to you after reaching max range.  Increases cooldown by 10 seconds.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

28 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Meh. 

Augment would be a much better solution.  Coz.....I really like how it is now.  Sphere would be boring and too ez.

Some ideas:

 1)  Directional Catalyze -  Launches 3 drones in a cone where you aim.  More range and speed. Faster cast.

 2)  Catalyze Rain -   Catalyze drones create a much longer downward streams of gas. 

 3)  Catalyze Return -   Drones return to you after reaching max range.  Increases cooldown by 10 seconds.

No. The last thing Lavos needs is a stupid band aid augment.