Riven disposition for new Prime Weapons

[rapt0rman]

2 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

So you think releasing a prime weapon that is weaker than it's non-prime counter part is a good concept? I guess some people love weapons for their skins. I, for one, look for how it performs. 

Tenora Prime will be explicitly better then Tenora. Tenora with a riven might potentially be better then Tenora Prime with a riven for a few months.

[Danielw8]

Just now, rapt0rman said:

Tenora Prime will be explicitly better then Tenora. Tenora with a riven might potentially be better then Tenora Prime with a riven for a few months.

for a few months, or for a whole year?

[rapt0rman]

The best part is, people deciding that the Tenora Prime isn't worth it are the reason it's disposition will rise.

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

2 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Tenora Prime will be explicitly better then Tenora. Tenora with a riven might potentially be better then Tenora Prime with a riven for a few months.

What does "explicitly better" mean? With 0 mods? Sure. Fully modded? No. Do you play with unmodded weapons? 

Also keep dreaming on a "few months". Just check Zakti or Aksomatti. 

DE doesn't care or fix weak weapons. Those are forgotten in a dumpster. They only care about nerfing the meta weapons. 

Just check the usage statistics from DE. Plenty low dispo weapons that are underused and forgotten. 

[rapt0rman]

Just now, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

What does "explicitly better" mean? With 0 mods? Sure. Fully modded? No. Do you play with unmodded weapons? 

Also keep dreaming on a "few months". Just check Zakti or Aksomatti. 

DE doesn't care or fix weak weapons. Those are forgotten in a dumpster. They only care about nerfing the meta weapons. 

Just check the usage statistics from DE. Plenty low dispo weapons that are underused and forgotten. 

Stats have already been seen for Tenora Prime, they're explicitly better then tenora's, They might change but I doubt they will.

[Tiltskillet]

20 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

This is on-topic and the problem at hand. And I am not referring here specifically to Tenora Prime. I am sure it will be dead on release. I am trying to correct - or better said raise awareness - of underlying problem:

That's why that part was off-topic:  I was pointing out that it it's premature to make that judgement of the Tenora Prime specifically.   It could be correct or incorrect, but the fact is, we don't have the Tenora Prime yet.

 

26 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

hey want to kill the riven market and have 0.5 dispo on all new non-prime weapons? Fine.

It's funny though, I really don't think it has killed  the riven market for new weapons.  Calmed down -some- of the speculation, definitely, but rivens for new primes still seem to be one of the quick ways to make lots of plat.

I'm a casual trader though, so I'd be curious what somebody with a deeper understanding of the market would say.

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

1 minute ago, rapt0rman said:

Stats have already been seen for Tenora Prime, they're explicitly better then tenora's, They might change but I doubt they will.

And with those stats, Tenora Prime is weaker than Tenora when fully modded - hence one of the reason this thread even started. 

We already have Tenora for years now. Maybe it would be nice that a new weapon is not in the dumpster from day 1. 

[rapt0rman]

9 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

And with those stats, Tenora Prime is weaker than Tenora when fully modded - hence one of the reason this thread even started. 

We already have Tenora for years now. Maybe it would be nice that a new weapon is not in the dumpster from day 1. 

Spoiler

I guarantee you the only mod on that weapon is Serration, which leaves higher crit chance, crit damage, and status in the fist mode, and higher crit chance and status in the second (increased fire rate and mag size too, but that's not the bread and butter)

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

That's why that part was off-topic:  I was pointing out that it it's premature to make that judgement of the Tenora Prime specifically.   It could be correct or incorrect, but the fact is, we don't have the Tenora Prime yet.

 

It's funny though, I really don't think it has killed  the riven market for new weapons.  Calmed down -some- of the speculation, definitely, but rivens for new primes still seem to be one of the quick ways to make lots of plat.

I'm a casual trader though, so I'd be curious what somebody with a deeper understanding of the market would say.

I am - or better wording used to be - a heavy riven trader. Probably 300+ rivens sold. A good part of them rolled by me; a good part were traded for other gear or simply flipped from riven.market / trade chat. 

I can absolutely tell you that farming fisures gives you easily 2.5x more platinum now. My platinum concerns are long gone but if I would have any, even with my experience, I wouldn't bother with rivens. It's not worth the effort anymore. 

I don't care about platinum making aspect but I do miss the power they used to bring to the table. Now that power is basically void due to prime / non-prime disposition difference. Hence no reason for most people to bother. Less things to chase in the game -> boring. 

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

7 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

I guarantee you the only mod on that weapon is Serration, which leaves higher crit chance, crit damage, and status in the fist mode, and higher crit chance and status in the second (increased fire rate and mag size too, but that's not the bread and butter)

Now compare that with the difference of 0.5 and 1.1 disposition. Please do. 

For example, do you think 2% crit is going to even make it even close to the gap between critical chance boost from a 1.1 vs a 0.5 disposition?

And again, this is not an isolated example. Plenty example on live game to pick from.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

But now the complain tables have reversed.

I fail to see how?

The majority is still the people that wanted this change. The minority is still the MR30 with thousands of Plat.

You can complain, not saying that you can't. Free speech within bounds of Forum rules and all that.

I'm just pointing out that your point of view is definitely the minority and your complaint will not achieve anything because you had your way originally and it's now been changed specifically to move away from that original state.

[rapt0rman]

1 hour ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Now compare that with the difference of 0.5 and 1.1 disposition. Please do. 

For example, do you think 2% crit is going to even make it even close to the gap between critical chance boost from a 1.1 vs a 0.5 disposition?

And again, this is not an isolated example. Plenty example on live game to pick from.

Crit chance isn't the only thing that makes a weapon good, aside from the fact that you can brute force pretty much any primary with enough crit and Hunter Munitions (and aside from that, you can always just brute force your crit chance with Arcane Avenger). Status chance is the area Tenora was actually lacking in.

But, for the sake of the argument I pulled up Semlar and and took a look at the potential stats of dispositions, and Ironically the prime would beat the regular in status chance with the base 0.5 disposition for both primary and secondary mode, and the crit chance of the secondary mode would only need a disposition of 0.85 to overtake it, which is realistically not that hard of a hurdle to reach (Panthera Prime jumped directly from 0.5 to 0.85 when it went through it's first disposition update, not that I'm expecting that). The primary would need a disposition of 1.0 to overtake, but by 0.85 it would be a ~7% difference which isn't going to make or break a weapon.

[Danielw8]

34 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Crit chance isn't the only thing that makes a weapon good, aside from the fact that you can brute force pretty much any primary with enough crit and Hunter Munitions (and aside from that, you can always just brute force your crit chance with Arcane Avenger). Status chance is the area Tenora was actually lacking in.

But, for the sake of the argument I pulled up Semlar and and took a look at the potential stats of dispositions, and Ironically the prime would beat the regular in status chance with the base 0.5 disposition for both primary and secondary mode, and the crit chance of the secondary mode would only need a disposition of 0.85 to overtake it, which is realistically not that hard of a hurdle to reach (Panthera Prime jumped directly from 0.5 to 0.85 when it went through it's first disposition update, not that I'm expecting that). The primary would need a disposition of 1.0 to overtake, but by 0.85 it would be a ~7% difference which isn't going to make or break a weapon.

Do you actually understeand what is the point? some regular weapons have better perfomance than primed weapons.

Even they have very similar or the same perfomance, still really bad, since you are using a weapon slot, exilus slot, catalyst and farming the new weapon for what?

 

[ReddyDisco]

4 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

The best part is, people deciding that the Tenora Prime isn't worth it are the reason it's disposition will rise.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

It worked in my favour, I go a Corinth riven, and I was a huge fan of the default Corinth. Built the prime, and the prime reload annoyed the hell out of me.

So I get to use the default Corinth that I enjoy more, with a more powerful riven.

Personally, I’m happy with that :D

[IceColdHawk]

On 2021-02-02 at 1:10 PM, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

I've been away from the game a few years. Came back a few weeks ago and checking what's new. Maybe I am missing something, but aren't the new prime weapons worse than the non-prime counterpart? 

For example, I checked Tenora Prime vs Tenora stats. Sure, Tenora Prime has slightly better stats. However, due to riven disposition differences the non-prime Tenora has better stats if you own even an average/mediocre riven - let alone a "top tier" one. 

Are the new prime weapons only for MR fodder? 

For sure not the hype I used to enjoy back in the days on a new weapon release ... 

I sadly must confirm that the hype about getting new prime weapons is NOWHERE close to being as good as it was 3+ years ago. Nowadays primes are either down/sidegrades or have got VERY miniscule buffs compared to the base version.

And everyone that owns a rivened build for a weapon that is about to get primed, will get their entire hype nullified due to exactly what you described. A Tenora's 1.1 dispo vs. a Tenora Prime's 0.5 dispo. A rivened base weapon will be better than the primed weapon with the riven due to stupid dispositioning and miniscule prime buffs. Sadly, this is what are prime accesses nowadays. I used to grind them asap but now i just can't care anymore.

On 2021-02-02 at 9:03 PM, TARINunit9 said:

So wait, you think anything with low disposition is MR fodder? Because the usual logic goes the other direction

Which part of "prime weapons" did you not understand? Where did you get the "anything" from? And he's right when the prime is minimally better than the base but the base has a WAY higher riven dispo, he has a point in that people who own a riven for said weapon (which he also said btw) will make the prime basically MR fodder to them.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Which part of "prime weapons" did you not understand? Where did you get the "anything" from? And he's right when the prime is minimally better than the base but the base has a WAY higher riven dispo, he has a point in that people who own a riven for said weapon (which he also said btw) will make the prime basically MR fodder to them.

In case you missed it, I was passive-aggressively jabbing at his "anything that isn't the literal best, is tied for the worst" mindset. Then again, I'm getting similar vibes from you

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

In case you missed it, I was passive-aggressively jabbing at his "anything that isn't the literal best, is tied for the worst" mindset. Then again, I'm getting similar vibes from you

You sure love putting words into people's mouth and twisting things. Well i guess thank you for at least admitting to being passive-aggressive instead of adding something productive.

Someone on the internet: "How are primes now better than the base for users that own rivened builds for said weapon?"

TARINunit9: "Wow so you're saying that just because they're not the literal best, they're the worst?"

big brain time.

[Jarriaga]

At the end of the day, this is a case of diametrically opposed desires.

DE want for Rivens to be equalizers at the expense of power.

Some players want for Rivens to push power at the expense of balance.

Players in the second group had it their way for years and it became a highly disliked problem. Now DE are taking the first approach and complains have significantly lessened and changed in tone from lost investments to lost enthusiasm.

What is worse? Obviously depends on the camp you're on.

On 2021-02-05 at 1:18 AM, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

The easy fix is to simply decide on some rule between prime and non-prime like: The difference between Prime and Non-Prime item shall not be greater than 0.3.

That means flat out nerfing the old weapon to 0.8 when the Prime is released. That is a massive and drastic jump. I obviously understand you actually want it the other way around, with the Prime being at 1.2 if base is at 1.5, but anything higher than 0.5 means that DE will be unable to measure base popularity sans Riven, which will then lead to the Prime bring nerfed and people then complaining about the nerf.

You can't have it both ways. DE's current approach means more organic, long-lasting buffs (Even if small) while what you want is historically proven to lead to artificial quick nerfs. Most people appreciate buffs over nerfs. They'd rather be pleasantly surprised over a buff down the line than feeling they have to move on from the weapon in 3 months with the new revision.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

You sure love putting words into people's mouth and twisting things. Well i guess thank you for at least admitting to being passive-aggressive instead of adding something productive.

You might have some merit to this, if OP didn't admit to it later on

[(XBOX)SwiftBMF]

Ohhh you just F'ed up reeeal bad.

 

You mentioned rivens & new primes.

 

Prepare for pitchforks.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

12 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

You sure love putting words into people's mouth and twisting things. Well i guess thank you for at least admitting to being passive-aggressive instead of adding something productive.

Someone on the internet: "How are primes now better than the base for users that own rivened builds for said weapon?"

TARINunit9: "Wow so you're saying that just because they're not the literal best, they're the worst?"

big brain time.

Not agreeing with you doesn't equal not "adding something productive". Edit: this isn't your own personal echo chamber.

The reason why people make statements like this is because we forget to copy and paste literal paragraphs explaining the most basic things over and over again. 

You have the search bar to read past discussions on rivens, dispositions, and primes versus originals.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You might have some merit to this, if OP didn't admit to it later on

"However, this is not the case anymore. 

Unless the weapon can compete without a riven with other existing weapons -> MR fodder. If the weapon has a non-prime version with 1+ dispo, it's an automatic loss for any "serious" build."

Yep, he actually said that lol. 

My Corinth Prime has 5 forma and whenever I try to kill an enemy, it just falls apart in my hands, explodes at my feet, does 8k self damage and I fail the mission. It's literally unusable unless I have a rivened Corinth. A prompt on the game told me that.

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Not agreeing with you doesn't equal not "adding something productive". Edit: this isn't your own personal echo chamber.

Oh look, another brainy. Another useless comment from you which doesn't really surprise me. If you can't see that a very clear strawman without anything adding towards the discussion isn't productive then i don't know what to tell you honestly.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

My Corinth Prime has 5 forma and whenever I try to kill an enemy, it just falls apart in my hands, explodes at my feet, does 8k self damage and I fail the mission. It's literally unusable unless I have a rivened Corinth. A prompt on the game told me that.

Ah yes, the sarcasm couldn't be more extreme or stupid. Have yet to see an actual counterargument to the problem that is new primes being no worth for people that own a riven for the base already due to 0.5 dispo on the prime and miniscule stat increases on the prime vs. the standard. But you guys seem talented in grasping for straws and cherrypicking because you likely have no expertise in the topic that is being discussed.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)SwiftBMF said:

Ohhh you just F'ed up reeeal bad.

 

You mentioned rivens & new primes.

 

Prepare for pitchforks.

Damn right. An incentive to grind new primes? Or having an incentive to grind out rivens? Nah man can't have that i guess. Would be too good.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

34 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Oh look, another brainy. Another useless comment from you which doesn't really surprise me. If you can't see that a very clear strawman without anything adding towards the discussion isn't productive then i don't know what to tell you honestly.

Ah yes, the sarcasm couldn't be more extreme or stupid. Have yet to see an actual counterargument to the problem that is new primes being no worth for people that own a riven for the base already due to 0.5 dispo on the prime and miniscule stat increases on the prime vs. the standard. But you guys seem talented in grasping for straws and cherrypicking because you likely have no expertise in the topic that is being discussed.

Damn right. An incentive to grind new primes? Or having an incentive to grind out rivens? Nah man can't have that i guess. Would be too good.

Some people won't accept any argument given, which isn't anyone's problem except your own. Sometimes you can't always get what you want.

If you can't kill enemies with a prime weapon, feel free to ask for build advice over in player helping players:

 

"Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll, and if a weapon is way off of where it should be disposition-wise, it can take several waves of changes for it to reach an appropriate power level. 

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common."