is it just me? or should melee change again ?(bare with me please!!)

[KittySkin]

24 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

That's exactly my point. You can't just play this game. If you do, you'll never get anywhere. You have to work at it, and grind for everything if you ever want to make progress. And that is terrible game design. A game shouldn't be like your Mom making you do chores before you can go outside and play.

The simple fact that its even possible to get burnt out on games like Warframe, and need to take a break for your own mental health, is absurd. And shows just how much it actually does to manipulate people into playing for thousands of hours, instead of actually being fun enough to play for that long.

Normally, when a game you're playing starts to get boring, you simply stop, and do something else. But games like Warframe are designed to keep you from doing that. Everything like limited time events, constant little updates, and daily login rewards are designed to keep you coming back no matter how much you want to stop. And even if you do stop, its also designed to keep you thinking about the game all the time, so you are never truly free of it. Whenever you're playing something else, some small part of the back of your mind will still be wondering what's going on in Warframe, or thinking that you could be spending your time grinding for something, instead of whatever else you're currently doing.

Really, I think everyone should stop playing Warframe, because it doesn't respect your time. And there are hundreds of other games out there that do. But that doesn't mean I don';t also want to see it improve, and become worth playing again. Because there is still some fun to be had here, its just too bad its buried under so much crap.

Sure, and Coptering was also terrible. It was an attempt to turn a bug into a game mechanic, which almost never works out well. And, it encouraged rushing, which is also a bad idea. Rushers are the people that want play your game the least, so basing whole mechanics around their playstyle means encouraging everyone to play the game less, and interact with as little of it as possible.

Since Bullet Jumping is basically Coptering 2.0, it has the same issues. It encourages simply flying past everything as fast as you can, instead of actually stopping to smell the roses. Or you know, actually interacting with the game, which is kind of important if you want people to enjoy it.

Plus, since most old tilesets weren't designed with Bullet Jumping in mind, it tends to break them a bit. Where there were once cool wall running paths, and other fun parkour things to do, now you can just fly over everything without a care in the world.

As I said, I don't think Bullet Jumping should be removed (that would probably cause riots at this point), but it does need some kind of limitations. It may not seem like it, but it is actually a big part of what makes us so overpowered in a lot of ways. Try not using it for a few missions, and you'll see what I mean. Dodging attacks and avoiding tough enemies becomes much harder. Getting into and out of melee combat is much less effective. You can't simply Bullet Jump and ground slam to stunlock everything you fight. And, you have to actually find more interesting paths though the level, since you cant just fly everywhere. A lot of things become much more interactive, and you actually have to make some choices, instead of just having Bullet Jumping as the best answer for every situation.

There are more ways to balance a game than simply modifying DPS. And DPS is actually not usually the real cause of the imbalance, anyway. It all depends on the environment. Like, how in Warframe, we pretty much always fight big groups of weak enemies, instead of a few tough ones. So, the most effective weapons are the ones that are best at killing big groups, and not ones that work best against single big targets. That's why melee weapons with long reach, guns with AOE of some sort, and Warframes with massive AOE damage output are always the most popular. Simply changing the DPS on these things won't do much to change their popularity, either, because its their other properties that make them so effective.

And, one of the other things that makes melee so effective it is relationship with mobility. You reduce player mobility, you reduce melee effectiveness without reducing DPS. If anything, this might actually call for a melee DPS increase, since it will become a lot riskier to use. And again, more risk vs. reward is what this game needs.

In fact, reducing mobility its what you would do on another game. Not here. Warframe its all about quick, stupidly mobile players agains stupidly dumb enemies.

Its part of its core design, its meant to be like that, and if they ever reduce mobility by a bit, I know for sure that A LOT of players will quit the game.

The main balance poin on warframe is how much damage you can sustain, how much damage you can deal and how effective you are spreading said damage against big groups of enemies.

Reducing mobility will not change survivability for a lot of frames that dont give a damn about that, but will destroy frames that survive just because of it.

If you really want to reduce mobility, first you need to reduce enemy numbers, modify mission enemy balance and rebalance a lot of CC and tank frames. And by that point, you are no longer playing warframe, you are playing destiny with 3rd person view.

Also, if you dont enjoy grinding, you are not meant for this kind of games. I enjoy grinding. I dont feel like working, not even a bit.

Maybe because my daily life, my wife, my family, my work, and my country economic demise keep me bussy, the game literally takes no space in my brain, that varies per person, but if you feel like this at this point, as you said, just quit it. Delete it, take some time to play other stuff, start doing new activities, etc, and after a long while, decide if you want to keep playing.

Games are addictive, like any kind of drug, there are S#&$loads of material about that, so its easy to tell if someone is going through some struggle, and I can relate.

Take a break, enjoy friends, family, adopt a cat or a dog if you dont have any of those and after some months without even touching the forums come back and see id you really want to keep playing.

Anyway, im bored of the forum and want to eat and sleep.

Stay safe and stay healty mate! Best wishes on whathever you decide to do.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Teljaxx said:

Did I ever say I expect Warframe to become perfectly balanced? No. That's just your silly strawman talking.

The problem is not that Warframe isn't perfectly balanced. Its that Warframe is barely balanced at all. This is one of the worst balanced games I have ever played. And pretty much all the other ones are dead now, because of it.

The point isn't to strive for perfection, its simply to strive to be better. And there is A LOT of room for improvement here, even if you don't want to admit it. I have to wonder if you've ever actually played any other games if you really think this is the best there is.

Its also funny that you mention bad players, and their perception of balance, because in my experience, its always the bad players that fight the hardest to keep being overpowered. They are the ones that rely the most heavily on the crutch of having super high stats to get by. And, the ones why cry the loudest when you take away that crutch are also the ones that are too lazy to learn to walk on their own. Guess what you sound like?

Tell that to the Revenant I had to revive in an arbitration. Like I said....some players can use the same tools with different results.

Not much is gonna be changed about warframe. To balance the game, you would have to delete multiple range mods from the game, and multiple strength and duration mods from the game as well as other mods. It's not gonna happen, sorry. Hope you can cope with it.

[PublikDomain]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

An Akvasto will never be equal to a Bramma or a kronen.

Not when people keep defending DE's lack of attention towards game balance it won't. But it should be. And why not? If I like the Twin Vipers Wraith, why shouldn't those be as good as Akstiletto Prime? And why shouldn't either of those be as good as whatever generic meta melee weapon?

37 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They have different uses for different scenarios...

... and the design of the game makes it so only a small handful of scenarios actually matter. It sounds like you weren't around for it, but for example CC used to be the dominating strategy in the game. But CC isn't nearly as important as it once was because DE's lack of attention towards game balance has allowed DPS strategies to evolve that can dominate any type of content well beyond what's actually practical for a regular player. It isn't until hours in that something like CC actually becomes a reasonable choice over just instakilling everything in your way with a melee weapon. That shouldn't be the case. Ideally both CC and DPS should be equally viable choices. Do you approach a defensive mission by setting up defenses? Or do you approach it by killing enemies before they can kill the target? Or do you do both? Or something entirely different? Those are the scenarios that should play out, but don't. DE should take an active role in balancing the game so these kinds of scenarios can appear in the game again.

This would make the game better than it already is, because with consistent levels of player power DE could finally create consistent content with that power level in mind. There's a reason they keep flopping with every new enemy they add to the game. There's a reason the first iteration of Railjack was dominated by Archwing. There's a reason early Kosma units had to be nerfed so hard. There's a reason the Wolf had to be nerfed several times. Steel Path, Arbitrations, etc, etc. But addressing this problem means nerfing the current level of player power down to a level playing field. There's no other way to proceed, because like you say there's no way to buff some items as much as they'd have to be to become viable picks. And any time that's suggested people come out of the woodworks over "muh power fantasy", nevermind that the power fantasy we've got devolves into a boring cookie clicker.

Teljaxx puts it well:

6 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

The problem is not that Warframe isn't perfectly balanced. Its that Warframe is barely balanced at all. This is one of the worst balanced games I have ever played.

What we have right now definitely isn't good, and it can be better.

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Partially unrelated but does anyone know where this whole "Balance = bad" mentality came from?

IMO there's been a conflation with "balance" and "challenge". Some people associate balance with making the game harder and eroding the whole "power fantasy" thing, but really "balance" just means "consistency". It means that all things are in their right place and that the system is, well, balanced. Balance is a prerequisite for challenge so it gets dragged along for the ride, and players that don't want their power taken away make attacks against it.

[Teljaxx]

2 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Yup. WF uses every gambling trick in the book to keep you from stepping away from the gaming machine. This is also why so many people are so averse to nerfing melee (and want to buff ranged weapons). Its because if every boss battle was an actual battle, you would not longer be able to farm those parts that you need. The time I wanted Nova, and it took me 32 runs to get the Systems component would have been an impossible task had it not been for the ability to charge in, kill the raptors without thinking (hell, I got so good at killing them so quickly that they would drop their power cores into the conveyors). Imagine if tha\t was a 10 minute battle and not a 10 second one!

That means that DE has to fudge things so that we end up with invulnerability stages and void-damage shields and the like for the bosses they want to be actually hard.

So understand that WF is a game of looting. The melee and shooting is completely a secondary part. Its a spin-the-wheel game that you are made to keep playing with those psychological tricks. You may think it matters that melee is OP, but its not. The whole game as a space ninja fighter is broken, and the fact we all keep coming back for more, unable to stop, is testimony to this. And that's why melee nerfs will be so resisted - people do not want it fixed because it isn't the part that truly needs fixing. You want the combat to be fun and exciting and meaningful. They want the combat to be over as quickly as possible so they can get the loot (repetitively)

Until the grind and the RNG and all the drops are accessible, they are the ones who are right here. Much as it pains me to say.

Boom. Hit the nail on the head. I was wondering if anyone else would actually bring this up.

Balance and challenge are the antithesis of grindy, "Live Service" looter shooters like Warframe.

Challenge means there is a chance to fail. But, failing a mission means missing out on loot drops. And when everything is a 0.02% drop chance, missing even a single one is frustrating as hell. So you can't have super long grinds, and decent challenge in the same game. They just don't work together.

Balance, meanwhile, effects profitability. Pretty much all the imbalance in this game comes from powercreep. And that comes from DE needing to make every new item better than everything that came before, so that people actually want to buy or grind for it. Because if the fancy new gun they just added isn't the best gun in the game, who is going to want to spend the time or money to get it? And if that best gun in the game can't carry even the least skilled player through the entire game without trying, then whats the point of buying it? if you still also need to learn to play, then what are you really spending your money on?

The simple truth is that DE's choices in what kind of game they made Warframe doomed it to never really being good from the very beginning. This kind of game comes with far too many "necessary evils" to ever be truly excellent. Like Microtransactions. if this game was truly fun from the very beginning, they wouldn't have anything to sell you. So they take some of that fun out, make it a microtransaction, and sell it back to you.

But, that also doesn't mean that Warframe still can't be improved upon. Just because it will never be the best, doesn't mean it has to be this terrible.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

IMO there's been a conflation with "balance" and "challenge". Some people associate balance with making the game harder and eroding the whole "power fantasy" thing, but really "balance" just means "consistency". It means that all things are in their right place and that the system is, well, balanced. Balance is a prerequisite for challenge so it gets dragged along for the ride, and players that don't want their power taken away make attacks against it.

Oh I know things like that, I was just more wondering when/where the concept came from, I've noticed it coming up more and more often in the past few years in gaming discussion and it always feels like the same slippery slope fallacy or insinuating that balance can't be fun inherently.

Or things like "If it were balanced everything would be the same" despite this seldom being the case at all, I just can't figure out why this mentality has only gained prominence over the years because games have been balanced to various degrees long before the late 2010s and now all of a sudden none of them ever were?

It just is confusing.

[Teljaxx]

12 minutes ago, quxier said:

It would game less WF and more FPS with some melee added. Sure, some limitation won't affect too much... but I'm afraid we cannot stop at what you said. There are other ways to "fly through" enemies, like:

- Titania

- Archwing

- Rolls

and probably more.

And you have to remember that wallrunning isn't always available (or at least easy to do). In certain tilesets you may end up rarely using whole (or at least the bigger part of) spectrum of movement.

Sure, Bullet Jumping isn't the only way to simply fly past everything. There are other, non-flight based ways to ignore everything too, like invisibility. But, Bullet Jumping is the most powerful one that every single frame can do, without limit. Therefore, it has the biggest effect on the game.

Though, you are right. Those other things will also need to be considered if Bullet Jumping is changed. Because, again, balance is about making sure everything fits together properly. Sometimes that means modifying multiple systems at the same time to get them all to work together. And, this is one thing DE has historically been terrible at. They usually like to just modify on thing at a time. Like adding Melee 3.0, but doing nothing to Parkour or anything else the melee changes might effect.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Not when people keep defending DE's lack of attention towards game balance it won't. But it should be. And why not? If I like the Twin Vipers Wraith, why shouldn't those be as good as Akstiletto Prime? And why shouldn't either of those be as good as whatever generic meta melee weapon?

... and the design of the game makes it so only a small handful of scenarios actually matter. It sounds like you weren't around for it, but for example CC used to be the dominating strategy in the game. But CC isn't nearly as important as it once was because DE's lack of attention towards game balance has allowed DPS strategies to evolve that can dominate any type of content well beyond what's actually practical for a regular player. It isn't until hours in that something like CC actually becomes a reasonable choice over just instakilling everything in your way with a melee weapon. That shouldn't be the case. Ideally both CC and DPS should be equally viable choices. Do you approach a defensive mission by setting up defenses? Or do you approach it by killing enemies before they can kill the target? Or do you do both? Or something entirely different? Those are the scenarios that should play out, but don't. DE should take an active role in balancing the game so these kinds of scenarios can appear in the game again.

This would make the game better than it already is, because with consistent levels of player power DE could finally create consistent content with that power level in mind. There's a reason they keep flopping with every new enemy they add to the game. There's a reason the first iteration of Railjack was dominated by Archwing. There's a reason early Kosma units had to be nerfed so hard. There's a reason the Wolf had to be nerfed several times. Steel Path, Arbitrations, etc, etc. But addressing this problem means nerfing the current level of player power down to a level playing field. There's no other way to proceed, because like you say there's no way to buff some items as much as they'd have to be to become viable picks. And any time that's suggested people come out of the woodworks over "muh power fantasy", nevermind that the power fantasy we've got devolves into a boring cookie clicker.

Teljaxx puts it well:

What we have right now definitely isn't good, and it can be better.

IMO there's been a conflation with "balance" and "challenge". Some people associate balance with making the game harder and eroding the whole "power fantasy" thing, but really "balance" just means "consistency". It means that all things are in their right place and that the system is, well, balanced. Balance is a prerequisite for challenge so it gets dragged along for the ride, and players that don't want their power taken away make attacks against it.

Well, one is a MR 7 weapon, and the other is a MR 10 prime weapon.... Why can't a level 1 bronze sword from some random MMO be as strong as some rarer Dragon sword obtained from a end game raid from the same game? Because that's ridiculous and I shouldn't have to explain tiered weapon systems. 

If you're not aware: 

"A Prime Warframe, weapon, Sentinel or accessory represents technology as it was during the height of the Orokin Era. A Prime Warframe will often have additional Polarity Slots compared to the non-Prime version, and Prime weapons will boast superior performance or other advantages against their counterparts. Due to its rarity, Prime technology is coveted throughout the Solar System."

And when I solo an arbitration defense where my death or the defense targets death means I lose everything, then yes....cc and defense is more important than killing. This scenario happens quite often. And when I'm done with those waves, I can go take Saryn to ESO if I want. Not my fault if you can't utilize different playstyles.

[Loza03]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you like a game, you're not going out of your way to do anything. You're just playing the game. 

I like being on my toes and being more aware to avoid a one-shot. I used to do competitive PVP, where slipping meant a one shot from another player. And players are faster and more responsive than AI, so warframes AI is nothing to me, but I understand everyone doesnt wanna play a "sweaty tryhard" type of gameplay, so it's ok for them to sit in a corner and press a couple buttons. 

Having just come off a round of Deep Rock Galactic, I can assure you that even horde shooters can have more passive, defensive playstyles that still encourage and reward skilled play.

[Teljaxx]

  

29 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Tell that to the Revenant I had to revive in an arbitration. Like I said....some players can use the same tools with different results.

Not much is gonna be changed about warframe. To balance the game, you would have to delete multiple range mods from the game, and multiple strength and duration mods from the game as well as other mods. It's not gonna happen, sorry. Hope you can cope with it.

Again, just because something isn't overpowered for one player, doesn't mean its not overpowered at all. Because being overpowered doesn't necessarily mean its unbeatable. It just means it is stronger than intended. That's like saying guns aren't actually dangerous because a baby isn't strong enough to pull the trigger.

You are right that the mod system is one of the most unbalanced parts of this entire game. But simply deleting specific mods won't fix that. Its systemic things, like stacking bonuses, and the fact that no mods other than Corrupted mods have any kind of tradeoff. There are very few choices to be made with builds, aside from boosting your DPS to maximum. And the difference between the stats of an unmodded and fully modded weapon are ridiculous.

That's really the main problem with this entire game's balance. The fact that two players can have such a massive difference in their stats, yet still be playing the exact same missions is just plain dumb. Its literally impossible to balance around one player dealing 300 DPS, while another deals 300 million DPS in the same squad. And its almost entirely the mod system that causes that.

Its also one of the main things that causes the imbalance between different weapon types. Since each weapon category gets its own mods, with different stats. Like how Rifles get Serration that adds 165% damage at max rank, but Melee gets Pressure Point which adds 120%. Or how primaries are the only weapons that can have Hunter Munitions, and Melee is the

only thing that can use Condition Overload.

To ever truly balance anything, the mod system is going to need a major overhaul.

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well, one is a MR 7 weapon, and the other is a MR 10 prime weapon.... Why can't a level 1 bronze sword from some random MMO be as strong as some rarer Dragon sword obtained from a end game raid from the same game? Because that's ridiculous and I shouldn't have to explain tiered weapon systems. 

If you're not aware: 

"A Prime Warframe, weapon, Sentinel or accessory represents technology as it was during the height of the Orokin Era. A Prime Warframe will often have additional Polarity Slots compared to the non-Prime version, and Prime weapons will boast superior performance or other advantages against their counterparts. Due to its rarity, Prime technology is coveted throughout the Solar System."

And when I solo an arbitration defense where my death or the defense targets death means I lose everything, then yes....cc and defense is more important than killing. This scenario happens quite often. And when I'm done with those waves, I can go take Saryn to ESO if I want. Not my fault if you can't utilize different playstyles.

  There are no weapon tiers in Warframe. At least, not in any way that matters. As I said above, you can have two players with drastically different loadouts, and stats, in exactly the same mission. MR brackets, Prime variants, or whatever, do nothing to change that. Especially since buying a weapon with Platinum lets you bypass the MR requirement.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Again, just because something isn't overpowered for one player, doesn't mean its not overpowered at all. Because being overpowered doesn't necessarily mean its unbeatable. It just means it is stronger than intended. That's like saying guns aren't actually dangerous because a baby isn't strong enough to pull the trigger.

You are right that the mod system is one of the most unbalanced parts of this entire game. But simply deleting specific mods won't fix that. Its systemic things, like stacking bonuses, and the fact that no mods other than Corrupted mods have any kind of tradeoff. There are very few choices to be made with builds, aside from boosting your DPS to maximum. And the difference between the stats of an unmodded and fully modded weapon are ridiculous.

That's really the main problem with this entire game's balance. The fact that two players can have such a massive difference in their stats, yet still be playing the exact same missions is just plain dumb. Its literally impossible to balance around one player dealing 300 DPS, while another deals 300 million DPS in the same squad. And its almost entirely the mod system that causes that.

Its also one of the main things that causes the imbalance between different weapon types. Since each weapon category gets its own mods, with different stats. Like how Rifles get Serration that adds 165% damage at max rank, but Melee gets Pressure Point which adds 120%. Or how primaries are the only weapons that can have Hunter Munitions, and Melee is the only thing that can use Condition Overload.

To ever truly balance anything, the mod system is going to need a major overhaul.

Many people use utility mods, so it's actually not all about damage. I hate the little jump warframes do, so I use the Motus mod that increases jump strength, for example. 

And people ask for nukes in recruit chat for Hydron runs, so there's nothing wrong with people using a temporary stat difference to help another teammate. 

Hopefully a mod overhaul doesn't happen anytime soon, or ever.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Having just come off a round of Deep Rock Galactic, I can assure you that even horde shooters can have more passive, defensive playstyles that still encourage and reward skilled play.

And I wouldn't play that game if I was paid for it, but I'm glad you like it and that's why we have so many different games, so you have a choice to play what you want.

[Loza03]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And I wouldn't play that game if I was paid for it, but I'm glad you like it and that's why we have so many different games, so you have a choice to play what you want.

And I'd like to play the space ninja game that this game is apparently trying to be, and that I know is in there, yet is frustratingly out of reach.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

1 hour ago, gbjbaanb said:

Yup. WF uses every gambling trick in the book to keep you from stepping away from the gaming machine. This is also why so many people are so averse to nerfing melee (and want to buff ranged weapons). Its because if every boss battle was an actual battle, you would not longer be able to farm those parts that you need. The time I wanted Nova, and it took me 32 runs to get the Systems component would have been an impossible task had it not been for the ability to charge in, kill the raptors without thinking (hell, I got so good at killing them so quickly that they would drop their power cores into the conveyors). Imagine if tha\t was a 10 minute battle and not a 10 second one!

That means that DE has to fudge things so that we end up with invulnerability stages and void-damage shields and the like for the bosses they want to be actually hard.

So understand that WF is a game of looting. The melee and shooting is completely a secondary part. Its a spin-the-wheel game that you are made to keep playing with those psychological tricks. You may think it matters that melee is OP, but its not. The whole game as a space ninja fighter is broken, and the fact we all keep coming back for more, unable to stop, is testimony to this. And that's why melee nerfs will be so resisted - people do not want it fixed because it isn't the part that truly needs fixing. You want the combat to be fun and exciting and meaningful. They want the combat to be over as quickly as possible so they can get the loot (repetitively)

Until the grind and the RNG and all the drops are accessible, they are the ones who are right here. Much as it pains me to say.

Exactly. Warframe isn't meant to be difficult. It's meant to be played over and over and over and over and over again etc. etc.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

7 hours ago, Omega-ZX said:

Spam E with polearm or Atterax was the same so...

Abnormal damage you say. Example please? Oh and dont say Stropha.

Kronen Prime.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Oh I know things like that, I was just more wondering when/where the concept came from, I've noticed it coming up more and more often in the past few years in gaming discussion and it always feels like the same slippery slope fallacy or insinuating that balance can't be fun inherently.

Oh, dunno then. If I had to wager it'd be maybe with the growth of the big F2P live service games? These types of games tend to have an environment where these issues with balance can grow, given the long lifespan and content-driven nature. Compared to something like, idk, CS which doesn't see a lot of evolution over time and has a strict focus on balance or something like CoD which varies a lot between games but (afaik) launches in a balanced state and isn't often balanced to a large degree after launch. I don't think there'd be any game in particular where the mentality would have come from, but this type of game would fit the timespan you're talking about. It takes time for powercreep to become a significant problem, and maybe it's only fairly recently that live service games have been able to grow long enough for the issue to crop up.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well, one is a MR 7 weapon, and the other is a MR 10 prime weapon.... Why can't a level 1 bronze sword from some random MMO be as strong as some rarer Dragon sword obtained from a end game raid from the same game? Because that's ridiculous and I shouldn't have to explain tiered weapon systems. 

Because Warframe isn't a traditional MMO and doesn't treat weapons the same nor experience the same kind of item turnover as a traditional MMO. Weapons aren't just stats with a model, they have mechanics and function differently from one another. If you like the sound and mechanics of the Twin Vipers, then the Twin Vipers Wrath are your one and only upgrade to the weapon. There aren't any alternatives for you to go to. Why should there be a big difference between a MR7 variant weapon and a MR10 variant weapon?

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you're not aware: 

And if you're not aware:

Quote

The uniquely styled Wraith Twin Vipers are a powerful variation on the standard akimbo machine-pistols.

And yet they fall behind compared to their counterparts, let alone to melee.

[Teljaxx]

59 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Many people use utility mods, so it's actually not all about damage. I hate the little jump warframes do, so I use the Motus mod that increases jump strength, for example. 

And people ask for nukes in recruit chat for Hydron runs, so there's nothing wrong with people using a temporary stat difference to help another teammate. 

Hopefully a mod overhaul doesn't happen anytime soon, or ever.

If you like using utility mods, instead of pure DPS boosts, then a mod overhaul would most likely benefit you quite a bit.

I posted this in another thread about mods a little while ago:

Spoiler

I doubt there is any kind of simple fix that will make mods balanced. The only option for DE is going to be a massive overhaul of pretty much the entire system.

There are a few main issues that most of the problems stem from:

1. Bonuses are multiplicative, instead of additive. This makes even tiny differences in base stats translate into massive discrepancies after modding, because a weapon with low base stats will always end up significantly weaker than one with high base stats.
2. There are too few limits on stacking multiple mods with similar effects. Combined with the previous issue, this is what creates the runaway snowballing effect that lets us boost our stats to such absurd levels. And its really those combinations that create the stagnant build problem, not just individual mods. Especially since most of these stackable mods also have other bonuses that can also stack.
3. Everything is a pure upgrade, and not a sidegrade. For there to be meaningful choices in a system like this, there need to be sacrifices. Simply not having enough slots or capacity for everything you want isn't a good enough sacrifice. The Corrupted mods were a good start, but it isn't nearly enough. There need to be more mods with both positive and negative effects, so that min/maxing is actually necessary, and not just an option.

1 may not need to be changed if 2 and 3 are dealt with properly. But 2 and 3 are big problems. Simply disallowing stacking similar bonuses would go a long way towards balancing everything, while also increasing build variety. You would only need one slot for your crit chance mod of choice, instead of two or three. And on top of that, adding negative aspects to most mods would then make that choice more meaningful. It would also give DE the opportunity to add more mods to the game that are simply different combinations of positives and negatives, instead of having to come up with crazier and crazier effects that just make the powercreep problem even worse.

This is somewhat unrelated, but they should also normalize the mod stats across different categories. It makes absolutely no sense that Serration gives +165% damage, Hornet Strike gives +220%, Pressure Point gives +120%, Point Blank gives +90%, and Rubedo-Lined Barrel gives +100%.

Unfortunately, all these changes would necessitate a complete rebalance of every other part of the game too, since its currently (theoretically) balanced around us being able to boost our stats to such insane levels, and these changes would reduce our maximum power by quite a bit. But, even though it means a ton of work for DE, this would all be better for the game in the end.

With those changes, the focus would move from simply stacking as much damage boosting stuff as possible, to actually having good reason to choose more peripheral stuff, too. Most likely, utility mods wouldn't have negative modifiers to them. So they would be a great choice if you don't want too many penalties. And, you would simply have more space for more fun stuff, since it wouldn't all be devoted to pure DPS boosting.

This is why its so baffling that you are so against having proper balance. You keep telling people to choose to not follow the meta. Despite the fact that, as it is now, the game encourages following the meta, and punishes you for doing anything else. But if it were properly balanced, it would actually reward you for making your own choices, AND there would be more viable things to choose from. Its what we call a win win situation.

[Teljaxx]

53 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And I'd like to play the space ninja game that this game is apparently trying to be, and that I know is in there, yet is frustratingly out of reach.

This is my entire problem with Warframe, and the reason I haven't simply abandoned it completely and moved on. There is still a lot of fun here. Its just buried under a ton of stupid crap. Intentional stuff, like microtransations and massive grinding. Along side unintentional stuff, like horrible balance and ignored bugs.

Playing it feels like digging for tiny gold nuggets in a mountain of Triceratops dung. And every time DE adds a new gold nugget, they also add several more pounds of dung.

And, at this point, the ratio just isn't worth it. There's too much crap and not enough gold. Especially since there are so many other games out there that offer similarly satisfying fast paced action, but also don't make you deal with mountains of crap to get to it.

[Uhkretor]

... I took the time to read the whole thing, despite who the OP really is... And I have to say that I'm actually surprised at how many of you have no F clue of how Melee weapons, and their stances (and the movement), actually works...

 

... on another note, I'm actually looking forward to the rest of the 3.0 system... Bye now...

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Oh, dunno then. If I had to wager it'd be maybe with the growth of the big F2P live service games? These types of games tend to have an environment where these issues with balance can grow, given the long lifespan and content-driven nature. Compared to something like, idk, CS which doesn't see a lot of evolution over time and has a strict focus on balance or something like CoD which varies a lot between games but (afaik) launches in a balanced state and isn't often balanced to a large degree after launch. I don't think there'd be any game in particular where the mentality would have come from, but this type of game would fit the timespan you're talking about. It takes time for powercreep to become a significant problem, and maybe it's only fairly recently that live service games have been able to grow long enough for the issue to crop up.

Because Warframe isn't a traditional MMO and doesn't treat weapons the same nor experience the same kind of item turnover as a traditional MMO. Weapons aren't just stats with a model, they have mechanics and function differently from one another. If you like the sound and mechanics of the Twin Vipers, then the Twin Vipers Wrath are your one and only upgrade to the weapon. There aren't any alternatives for you to go to. Why should there be a big difference between a MR7 variant weapon and a MR10 variant weapon?

And if you're not aware:

And yet they fall behind compared to their counterparts, let alone to melee.

Except the part where they do practice a similar weapon turnover. Just because it's not as solid and consistent doesn't mean it's not there. Certain low mr weapons have lower base stats, while higher MR weapons have higher base stats.

A lower MR like 3 isn't supposed to access a fulmin or a Kronen prime right away. They're gonna have to use a Cronus or something until they raise their MR. 

As far the viper, you're gonna have to have some patience and wait until DE even decides to do something with weapons. In the meantime, occupy yourself another way or throw a riven and a Primed bane mod on your viper and use a frame and arcane that boosts its damage. 

Since we're not balancing the game around Steel path Mot, you should have no issues killing enemies otherwise.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

If you like using utility mods, instead of pure DPS boosts, then a mod overhaul would most likely benefit you quite a bit.

I posted this in another thread about mods a little while ago:

  Reveal hidden contents

I doubt there is any kind of simple fix that will make mods balanced. The only option for DE is going to be a massive overhaul of pretty much the entire system.

There are a few main issues that most of the problems stem from:

1. Bonuses are multiplicative, instead of additive. This makes even tiny differences in base stats translate into massive discrepancies after modding, because a weapon with low base stats will always end up significantly weaker than one with high base stats.
2. There are too few limits on stacking multiple mods with similar effects. Combined with the previous issue, this is what creates the runaway snowballing effect that lets us boost our stats to such absurd levels. And its really those combinations that create the stagnant build problem, not just individual mods. Especially since most of these stackable mods also have other bonuses that can also stack.
3. Everything is a pure upgrade, and not a sidegrade. For there to be meaningful choices in a system like this, there need to be sacrifices. Simply not having enough slots or capacity for everything you want isn't a good enough sacrifice. The Corrupted mods were a good start, but it isn't nearly enough. There need to be more mods with both positive and negative effects, so that min/maxing is actually necessary, and not just an option.

1 may not need to be changed if 2 and 3 are dealt with properly. But 2 and 3 are big problems. Simply disallowing stacking similar bonuses would go a long way towards balancing everything, while also increasing build variety. You would only need one slot for your crit chance mod of choice, instead of two or three. And on top of that, adding negative aspects to most mods would then make that choice more meaningful. It would also give DE the opportunity to add more mods to the game that are simply different combinations of positives and negatives, instead of having to come up with crazier and crazier effects that just make the powercreep problem even worse.

This is somewhat unrelated, but they should also normalize the mod stats across different categories. It makes absolutely no sense that Serration gives +165% damage, Hornet Strike gives +220%, Pressure Point gives +120%, Point Blank gives +90%, and Rubedo-Lined Barrel gives +100%.

Unfortunately, all these changes would necessitate a complete rebalance of every other part of the game too, since its currently (theoretically) balanced around us being able to boost our stats to such insane levels, and these changes would reduce our maximum power by quite a bit. But, even though it means a ton of work for DE, this would all be better for the game in the end.

With those changes, the focus would move from simply stacking as much damage boosting stuff as possible, to actually having good reason to choose more peripheral stuff, too. Most likely, utility mods wouldn't have negative modifiers to them. So they would be a great choice if you don't want too many penalties. And, you would simply have more space for more fun stuff, since it wouldn't all be devoted to pure DPS boosting.

This is why its so baffling that you are so against having proper balance. You keep telling people to choose to not follow the meta. Despite the fact that, as it is now, the game encourages following the meta, and punishes you for doing anything else. But if it were properly balanced, it would actually reward you for making your own choices, AND there would be more viable things to choose from. Its what we call a win win situation.

I'd rather they just work on Duviri than dismantling the entire game. Sorry. Like I said, even if this day comes, all people have to do is find some other large handful of powerful synergies, then you'll be right back here playing whack a mole instead of either playing the game or taking a break. 

There's 45 frames, with more on the way, and more powerful weapons being released. Do you know what a permutation is? It means there's probably millions of different synergies you can achieve with all the different combinations of frames and mods and weapons (god bless the new Primed firestorm mods).

When you "fix" one thing, me and others will just find other things to make op. Like I said...wild west...good luck trying to control us all.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'd rather they just work on Duviri than dismantling the entire game. Sorry. Like I said, even if this day comes, all people have to do is find some other large handful of powerful synergies, then you'll be right back here playing whack a mole instead of either playing the game or taking a break. 

There's 45 frames, with more on the way, and more powerful weapons being released. Do you know what a permutation is? It means there's probably millions of different synergies you can achieve with all the different combinations of frames and mods and weapons (god bless the new Primed firestorm mods).

When you "fix" one thing, me and others will just find other things to make op. Like I said...wild west...good luck trying to control us all.

I'm not sure about @Teljaxx, but I do know this:

Monster Hunter has the same situation. Countless permutations of skills and weapons - especially if we're talking MHGU or MH:IB. And under the right circumstances, you can absolutely just TRASH on Monsters. Did you know that one group of speedrunners managed to kill a monster literally before it was released? It'd show up for a brief moment in a different monsters hunt as a teaser, and they smashed its face in so hard it never got the chance to escape. This kind of thing will happen regardless. Of course. Not to mention this was a hellish end-game monster at the time:

Spoiler

 

But you want to know something else?

This doesn't stop the game being fun, challenging and balanced. These permutations exist - but they don't define the experience. These 'completely dunk on the Monster in 7 seconds (AFAIK that's the world record for the fastest hunt?) requires deep game knowledge and mechanical skill to enact. The core gameplay loop is extremely tightly-tuned and the games are therefore able to appeal to all skill levels and a great many playstyles. You can beat the game barely knowing you're weapon's base mechanics too - and that's great! It's not some zero-sum situation where low-engagement playstyles and more intense ones have to battle it out to simply co-exist.  Unlike Warframe, due to it's balancing, where 'high-end' playstyles don't just exist - they're so overwhelmingly powerful for such overwhelmingly little effort. 'High-end' Limbo gameplay is using Stasis. 'High-end' Melee is having Blood Rush and Body Count equipped.

There exists a better way. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

52 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'm not sure about @Teljaxx, but I do know this:

Monster Hunter has the same situation. Countless permutations of skills and weapons - especially if we're talking MHGU or MH:IB. And under the right circumstances, you can absolutely just TRASH on Monsters. Did you know that one group of speedrunners managed to kill a monster literally before it was released? It'd show up for a brief moment in a different monsters hunt as a teaser, and they smashed its face in so hard it never got the chance to escape. This kind of thing will happen regardless. Of course. Not to mention this was a hellish end-game monster at the time:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

But you want to know something else?

This doesn't stop the game being fun, challenging and balanced. These permutations exist - but they don't define the experience. These 'completely dunk on the Monster in 7 seconds (AFAIK that's the world record for the fastest hunt?) requires deep game knowledge and mechanical skill to enact. The core gameplay loop is extremely tightly-tuned and the games are therefore able to appeal to all skill levels and a great many playstyles. You can beat the game barely knowing you're weapon's base mechanics too - and that's great! It's not some zero-sum situation where low-engagement playstyles and more intense ones have to battle it out to simply co-exist.  Unlike Warframe, due to it's balancing, where 'high-end' playstyles don't just exist - they're so overwhelmingly powerful for such overwhelmingly little effort. 'High-end' Limbo gameplay is using Stasis. 'High-end' Melee is having Blood Rush and Body Count equipped.

There exists a better way. 

Yea it's ultimately up to DE. A major move that changes the game is probably gonna cause another mass exodus from the game and they probably don't wanna gamble like that at the moment. 

Like Monster Hunter looks like a cool game and all, but I really don't like being forced to co-OP with mics. I've done all that stuff and am kinda over it. Warframe lets me move fast and solo, with the option to do team based stuff if I really want to. 

Either way I'll support whatever decision the game makes, as long as they dont do anything to the movement system. Seeing those characters move on MH made me almost ill. Warframes movement system spoiled me. 

[Yamazuki]

People choosing to mash E/heavy attack gunblade isn't any different to how most people are using the same couple primaries/secondaries that amount to just holding/mashing the fire input button. They don't have to, but they want to. The game is designed to reward killing a ton of enemies, with some exception to specific content, so there's really no pleasure in using any weapon that doesn't fit that, and for guns, precision is more tedious than anything in a game where you kill a thousand enemies, compared to the 10 in other games over the same duration.

As for build diversity, I'm not sure why it matters. It hasn't really existed, and doesn't exist for any other type of equipment, even Railjack didn't last long until the copy/paste the same one build happened. There were changes not long ago for the sake of diversity, people were just using Corrosive and now they just use Viral [even when enemies are immune].

I'm also not sure how they "dumbed" down stances. All they did was make it not tedious, and allowed you to properly switch between the different combos a weapon has. Switching between some combinations, with the right stats, can actually provide you with more movement than bullet jumping would, as long as you can control it. Combos are already more rewarding than heavy attack Gunblades, Gunblades are only superior against enemies that have to be hit by projectiles or if all you care about is doing enough damage to kill an enemy a billion times over even at the cost of efficiency.

Either way, heavy attacks likely exist for people that use guns other than when an enemy enters melee range, which is you know... the majority of the people who play the game. Combo based builds are worthless to them, and the heavy attack system lets them have damage without having to use their melee weapons, there's a reason there had been requests for a heavy attack quick swap rather than the quick melee->heavy attack. If you are the reverse and use melee primarily, the combo system is already far more rewarding than heavy attacks.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Except the part where they do practice a similar weapon turnover.

Except they don't, not even close. In Borderland you don't go 5 minutes without finding a new gun to use. Same with Destiny. When I played Archeage a few years back I didn't come out of a dungeon without some new piece of loot to use. Same with Guild Wars 2. In a typical MMO you get a constant barrage of new junk to sift through and equip, and there's a constant progression. Not only that, but there's a constant player progression as you gain XP and level up. You never get weaker. In contrast Warframe's weapon progression is much slower and the weapons you get remain with you forever, at least unless you sell them for slots or to upgrade with a new variant. You only ever need to find a weapon once. And the power you gain is entirely conditional on the mods you equip, so you can lose some or all of that power just by equipping something different. For example, it doesn't matter how much of a chad Warframe player you are, if you have a MK1 Braton and an unmodded Excalibur there's a limit to what you can do.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

A lower MR like 3 isn't supposed to access a fulmin or a Kronen prime right away. They're gonna have to use a Cronus or something until they raise their MR. 

Which is fine, though the fact that a MR3 an just buy a Fulmin or Kronen Prime and use it regardless kind of throws a wrench into that argument.

But if I'm MR30 and want to use a Cronus for my Captain Vor cosplay it'd be really nice if that weapon actually functioned and could keep up in combat, at least a little bit. And I don't mean "it can kill enemies in a Lith mission", I mean "it's a reliable weapon I can use anywhere I go". Then I could pick weapons based on how they look and sound and function instead of by their stats. Then I could use my Twin Vipers Wraith or my Halikar or my Kuva Seer with the same convenience as my Kuva Brakk.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

As far the viper, you're gonna have to have some patience and wait until DE even decides to do something with weapons.

Which, as least as far as I can tell, is why we're all here in this thread talking about what DE should do to address this problem! Are we supposed to not talk about the problems with the game and just hope that DE reads our minds or something?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

53 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

People choosing to mash E/heavy attack gunblade isn't any different to how most people are using the same couple primaries/secondaries that amount to just holding/mashing the fire input button. They don't have to, but they want to. The game is designed to reward killing a ton of enemies, with some exception to specific content, so there's really no pleasure in using any weapon that doesn't fit that, and for guns, precision is more tedious than anything in a game where you kill a thousand enemies, compared to the 10 in other games over the same duration.

As for build diversity, I'm not sure why it matters. It hasn't really existed, and doesn't exist for any other type of equipment, even Railjack didn't last long until the copy/paste the same one build happened. There were changes not long ago for the sake of diversity, people were just using Corrosive and now they just use Viral [even when enemies are immune].

I'm also not sure how they "dumbed" down stances. All they did was make it not tedious, and allowed you to properly switch between the different combos a weapon has. Switching between some combinations, with the right stats, can actually provide you with more movement than bullet jumping would, as long as you can control it. Combos are already more rewarding than heavy attack Gunblades, Gunblades are only superior against enemies that have to be hit by projectiles or if all you care about is doing enough damage to kill an enemy a billion times over even at the cost of efficiency.

Either way, heavy attacks likely exist for people that use guns other than when an enemy enters melee range, which is you know... the majority of the people who play the game. Combo based builds are worthless to them, and the heavy attack system lets them have damage without having to use their melee weapons, there's a reason there had been requests for a heavy attack quick swap rather than the quick melee->heavy attack. If you are the reverse and use melee primarily, the combo system is already far more rewarding than heavy attacks.

Took this long for someone to say it. 

They basically want ninja call of duty. Spamming a couple bullets or projectiles is not different at all. 

They basically wanna go through the peaks and lulls of asking for ridiculous weapon buffs, waiting for the inevitable nerfs and YouTube videos, so they can then complain about how guns were later nerfed.