is it just me? or should melee change again ?(bare with me please!!)

[Teljaxx]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'd rather they just work on Duviri than dismantling the entire game. Sorry. Like I said, even if this day comes, all people have to do is find some other large handful of powerful synergies, then you'll be right back here playing whack a mole instead of either playing the game or taking a break. 

There's 45 frames, with more on the way, and more powerful weapons being released. Do you know what a permutation is? It means there's probably millions of different synergies you can achieve with all the different combinations of frames and mods and weapons (god bless the new Primed firestorm mods).

When you "fix" one thing, me and others will just find other things to make op. Like I said...wild west...good luck trying to control us all.

This is another problem with games like Warframe. They end up getting too big for their own good.

The developers have to keep making new stuff, or people run out of things to play and buy, and leave. But they also have to keep all the old stuff working, and updated, or else people get frustrated, and leave. But, every new thing they add means more old stuff to maintain later. And eventually, the game gets so big that they just plain don't have the resources to keep up with both.

DE obviously passed this point a few years ago. They simply don't have the people, or time, to both keep the old parts of the game running smoothly, while also releasing new stuff at a decent pace. So, many of the old parts of the game are breaking down. Balance is getting worse, there are bugs everywhere, and things that should be redesigned simply get ignored, or swept under the rug. And at the same time, new updates are coming slower and slower, while also usually having less in each one.

Plus, DE specifically has always had a problem with choosing quantity over quality. Why make one really cool thing that works perfectly, when you could make ten slightly varied versions of it that kind of work okay? There's more to sell that way!

Also, even the absolutely best balanced games I have ever played still have ways to break them. No game is speedrun proof. As you said, no game will ever be perfectly balanced. But that doesn't mean they can't be balanced at all. That's like saying "I am going to die eventually, so it might as well be today!" and offing yourself then and there. Even though there will still be problems, there are still plenty of things you can do to make things worthwhile until then. Giving up on the whole thing, just because of one small part being broken is just plain stupid.

Player actions don't change balance. But balance can change player actions. In an unbalanced game, the most common tactic is going to be to simply become as OP as possible, and steamroll everything without trying. But, in a properly balanced game, it is much more likely that people will use more varied gear, based on their personal preferences. Sure, that means that there will still be some people that just go for the highest power they can get, but as long as that's not the only viable choice they can make, then its not a problem.

[Aldain]

In terms of other games the concept of "Discard and draw" for gear makes sense usually only because each item is basically the same thing with bigger numbers, FF14's weapons from level 1 to 80 all do the same thing for the same Job without fail, in Borderlands usually weapons don't behave that dramatically different, sure exploding bullets here, fire damage there and so on, but an assault rifle is pretty much an assault rifle.

Warframe's weapons (bar straight upgrades...and even some of those behave completely differently) are unique to some extent, while the Veldt is a semi-automatic DMR type weapon its animations/sound design are unique to that weapon, you won't get that if you use the Grinlok instead, which despite being an MR7 weapon is arguably BETTER than the Veldt at MR8.

I want to use the Veldt, I want to LIKE the Veldt, but when a weapon LOWER in MR than it outperforms it in every way but magazine capacity and crit rate why would I use the Veldt? The answer is I wouldn't, not if I wanted to complete any of these missions that want nothing but the highest KPS rate.

That's not even getting into the mess of things like Thrown Secondary weapons, when's the last time you saw somebody using any of those not named Pox?

[vegetosayajin]

I love melee now(except a few exceptions like the zenistar). The problem is that enemies are like tissue paper right now.

[--SA--Demmodor]

Melee doesnt need a rework, damage does.

The meta is this game has gone from guns cuz melee is slow to guns are trash and melee is unstoppable.
The stats of guns arent neseceraly bad, but melee is faster with more options.
Melee should be nerfed in damage output, not in gameplay.
Condition Overload is broken with hybrid weapons (lot of status and crit)
While guns are chilling in some 60/60 mods (60% status, 60% elemental) which dont do more than applying status for your melee to slice through.
I feel like melee is perfect but guns need to be updated.
Either buff damage output of guns or nerf melee. 
And with stuff like Exodia Contagion (Arcane optained in Nights of Naberus as im writing this) guns arent even needed.
If status effects get changed on melee, and guns get quality of life changes + damage rework of this game, S#&$'s fixed in my opinion

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

10 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

despite who the OP really is

can you elaborate on that?  i mean you seem to be very confident that you decided to just tell everyone that they're clueless, then left.

[Loza03]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea it's ultimately up to DE. A major move that changes the game is probably gonna cause another mass exodus from the game and they probably don't wanna gamble like that at the moment. 

Like Monster Hunter looks like a cool game and all, but I really don't like being forced to co-OP with mics. I've done all that stuff and am kinda over it. Warframe lets me move fast and solo, with the option to do team based stuff if I really want to. 

Either way I'll support whatever decision the game makes, as long as they dont do anything to the movement system. Seeing those characters move on MH made me almost ill. Warframes movement system spoiled me. 

I'm playing GU solo, and I suck. Like I said. All skill levels.

 

(Also, MH:Rise has advanced mobility albeit not quite as free as WF. Unless you count Insect Glaive.)

[Malaki_7]

I don't mind the way the combo system is now. The old way was incredibly annoying to pull off and very inconsistent. I don't think the issue resides with melee weapons themselves, or the way that combat works with them. I think the much bigger issue is that enemy design allows you to just spam "E" and watch everything die. There should be melee enemies that actually are threatening, maybe they could bypass your shield-gate so you don't want them to get anywhere near you. There should be enemies heavily resistant to melee. I think melee would be fine if it was used as a tool to easily shred through grunt enemies and take out specific enemies designed to incentivize melee, but not if its used for everything like it is now. More options would be to have an enemy with profit taker-like shields which inherently incentivize multiple weapons. Enemies that have specific weak-points. There are tons of options that would help, but buffing all primaries and secondaries will just make things worse. And nerfing all melee will bring guns back into usage but combat will still be just as boring as ever. Which is why I think it comes down to good enemy design, to make normal gameplay interesting again.

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

The combos before were mostly bad, but the few that were good became shameless spam combos.

Crushing Ruin before the change had a unqiue combo that rewarded timing. It was a combo with a pause that finishes off with 2 strong spin attacks, and can be looped into the final 3 hits if you hold melee at the very end.

What is that combo now? An immediate access to the strong double spin attack that can easily be looped if you slide attack, another spin.

But to be fair, the change that allow us to switch from combo to combo is amazing. Resetting a combo or alternating between the first attacks of combos can create some good freestyle attacks and mobility options. Also being able to cancel any combo with a roll is another great additon. Unfortunately most won't use this. Choosing one combo and mashing it is easier, and rewarded with tons of damage.

In the end I agree. Melee still needs more changes that isn't just numbers.

[Sziklamester]

The melee is now a better option because the damage got increased and the devs worked on stances and fixed some melees. In my opinion you cannot constant spam the E button, because in a long push your fingers will be tired so that is enough limitation and I do not see a reason why the melee needs any kind of stamina system. I had no problem with stamina on warframes but that was a different time and almost all weapon was suck expet few newcomer. Remember when there was no forma only a catalyst or reactor to boost your frames also the abilities were mods. Those were limited times.

 

This time the melee is better but before the primaries and secondaries were stronger then the crowd cried why the melee is so krap. Now here we go again with a different situation only the melee became better than most primaries and secondaries. Weapons which almost got nothing or simple band aid stat revisits have hard time to compete with the melee because the damage disribution and changes on enemy ehp also shield gating made a gap on these. Shield gating not works on enemies when you do melee but a braton can suck at a level with it's low damage stats. Simply cannot shot through on the shields so you need to kill the ospreys before you try to hit the main threat.  In my opinion the enemy changes and shield gating which is hinders the progress and make the secondaries and primaries a lesser choice. These weapons got small buffs but even many still sucks stat wise and ammo economy because DE decided the range makes difference only. That legalize them to keep the secondaries and primaries to shine on equal levels where the melee is right now.

 

And I don't like the combos and heavy attacks and no matter how many changes they made with melee I always used the E because faster way to kill enemies. I don't like their special attacks because that is useless in the endless levels where the enemies are high enough to 2-3 shot kill you. Never bothered to use it only ocassionaly using the stance combos if the number of enemies are not too much. I am a player who likes the mobility, meleeing, using primaries and secondaries when these items are need to rid an enemy from distance. For example I would not use an akzani because DE decided to keep it on the bad category, low damage, high fire rate, small amount of ammo for a weapon which eats a lot. An aklato can be useful because the stat distribution is nice and you actually can make a level 100-150 killer weapon if you have mods for it even the baseline mods. A Braton prime sucks against shielded enemies because for some uncalled reason DE decided that weapon enough to have 1.75 impact damage which won't do so much against armor and shields. That weapon only sucks because of this like most assault rifles sucks against shielded enemies. 

 

I would like to use for example more bows and throwing secondaries but the kunai and hikou is just a joke and DE also not fixed the aiming with them and sometimes you just waste shots. Traditionally these weapons could be more lethal with higher crit/status and a bit more damage. Some melee weapons just have bad stances or just impossible to use normally without stances. Flailling branch is a stance on polearms especially the staff ones are a stance what I do not like to use because it makes the weapon attacks slow and idiotic. Clashing forest at least can be used on situations but the combos here also slow and clunky in some way. I do hate those stances what manipulating your moves or position in order to do some damage with the bad hitboxes.

 

Most players using certain weapon classes because the stances not sucks there that much. Pressing E also as I said have the limitation of your muscles. Also the enemy number limits the spam but for some reason many of you sees it every day and disgusted by when you can have an option not to do so. I do not ask others to play my style or follow my order because I said so. 

 

I agree with there needs some changes, slight nerfs and tweaks on certain classes also buffs on secondaries and primaries and rethink the enemy ehp, scaling and shield gating on a level where you as player no need to fear the death or losing life by one shot but be rewarded if you play well and tries everything to avoid trouble. Hard to implement and it needs some fundamental changes but simply nerfing the melee to the ground won't solve the problems and what was suck still it will be sucks again. The only solution would be better ai, reworked ehp for players and enemies and a new damage system what created from scratch. You can only balance a game if you have conception but warframe is a game with free fantasy and with no clear direction. Looter shooter horde killing game. Ask yourself what you want and play a game that serves your wishes. Drop a feedback and make a general concesus what the direction what the community really wants. I assume it will be hard because there are a lot more layers in the community what enjoy the current, wants changes, bored or want only slight changes. No 2 person likes the same and you cannot claim you speak for the name of the community so 'we'. I just shared my opinion and what I likes and dislikes about the current system. In my opinion this is fine and few segments needs changes but it will takes a lot of time to fix.

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

In terms of other games the concept of "Discard and draw" for gear makes sense usually only because each item is basically the same thing with bigger numbers, FF14's weapons from level 1 to 80 all do the same thing for the same Job without fail, in Borderlands usually weapons don't behave that dramatically different, sure exploding bullets here, fire damage there and so on, but an assault rifle is pretty much an assault rifle.

Warframe's weapons (bar straight upgrades...and even some of those behave completely differently) are unique to some extent, while the Veldt is a semi-automatic DMR type weapon its animations/sound design are unique to that weapon, you won't get that if you use the Grinlok instead, which despite being an MR7 weapon is arguably BETTER than the Veldt at MR8.

I want to use the Veldt, I want to LIKE the Veldt, but when a weapon LOWER in MR than it outperforms it in every way but magazine capacity and crit rate why would I use the Veldt? The answer is I wouldn't, not if I wanted to complete any of these missions that want nothing but the highest KPS rate.

 

Thread is now about the Veldt!  Much more interesting, tbh. 😎
 

Spoiler

 

At base I'd say the Veldt is better, generally speaking.  Mostly by virtue of better RoF, secondarily because of a better IPS profile.   Magazine is nice, more consistent crits (without double dipping DS and Point Strike) is nice, but sort of academic.   And somehow the Veldt has slightly better accuracy from the hip, even though its stat accuracy is worse and recoil is worse.  And not having as many impact procs does help.

The main caveat is Veldt doesn't have an augment, but Grinny has quite a good one.  But still, Veldt is better, I think.  Again, generally speaking.  Grinlok would tend to pull ahead when you can't make much use of the Veldt's extra RoF.  Or if you're doing such low level content that the syndicate proc on DS is having a big impact.

They're close, of course.  As one would hope and expect of two weapons separated by one MR.  Honestly, this is an example of DE doing it right, IMO.  I can say Veldt is better for my purposes, but not that it makes the Grinlok irrelevant.    I wish they did that well between more weapons and across weapon classes.

 

 

[ReddyDisco]

this isn't a pvp game (i can hear the 2 conclave players screaming), what we need is more options for fun. Primary, secondary and exalted need some love

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

12 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

this isn't a pvp game (i can hear the 2 conclave players screaming), what we need is more options for fun. Primary, secondary and exalted need some love

Forget about me, but is melee fun for you and other players?

[vanaukas]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Forget about me, but is melee fun for you and other players?

Not directed to me, but for me melee is fun, there is no way that buffing dmg on primary and secondary weapons would fix the melee issue, since ou could keep spamming E endlessly without any downside. Melee needs some kind of restraint besides few bosses/enemies that are "too hard to hit" with melee or they need other weapons to deal with their mechanics. In fact, more dmg just will make things worse and I really wish DE stop this mess once for all, we have enough dmg, moe than enough dmg for primaries and secondaries, they look worse due the inherent resitraints they have. This is why weapons like Kuva Nukor or AOE weapons are popular, it's not about just the dmg or crit chance or status. it's about surpassing the restraints of conventional primaries and secondaries, allowing you to hit many enemies effortless. This is why snipers and "true" assault rifles (with some exceptions) are used just for specific situations or niche players, because even if they deal large amounts of dmg, they lack the horde control and this is why most people restort to melee, because, again, melee doesn't have any downside on spamming E besides few enemies and few boss fights.

[ReddyDisco]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Forget about me, but is melee fun for you and other players?

i do like how the stances of melee have been made more streamlined, i also like gunplay but only upto a certain level, most fun guns don't really handle steel path all too well, i want them to.