is it just me? or should melee change again ?(bare with me please!!)

[PublikDomain]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There is currently no law that says a videogame has to be "balanced".

There's also no law that says I have to flush the toilet in my house when I take a dump, but I do it anyways because otherwise my house would smell like S#&$. While there may not be a law that a video game needs to be "balanced", being balanced is certainly better than the alternative. A balanced game is a consistent game. It's the difference between a game being Super Mario Bros and being E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial: one is a timeless masterpiece, the other is a meme. A balanced Warframe means guns and melee are equal. It means Nyx has just as much of a place in the game as Wukong. Why wouldn't this be a good thing? Why is it better that the game is so inconsistent and imbalanced?

[Teljaxx]

21 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

This.

Pretty much super this.

Why the hell people use a weapon they find boring because its overpowered, like... I play for fun, not for power, not to boost my e-go, I go in, pick any S#&$ im in the mood to use and go bum bam against enemies.

A friend of mine have this same issue, he cant play for his own life with non meta non broken gear, and its always complaining about how said gear its op and then how said gear its nerfed xD

Its a god #*!%ing game peps, just use things that you enjoy, do super non eficient combos that you have fun with and thats all, its about having fun, thats why ITS A GAME.

  You know why this matters? Because nothing in this game is free. If it were, then sure, who cares how broken and imbalanced it is? You can play around with it for a bit, have your fun, then move on to better things with nothing lost.

But that isn't the case. In Warframe, if it doesn't cost money, it costs time. And usually a lot of it. Everything in this game requires an investment before you can use it. So it better be worth the cost. And, personally, I don't find spending weeks tediously grinding for something, only to find that its so horribly designed that using it actually makes the game less fun to play, to be worth it.

The problem is that, at this point, I have been avoiding using so much of this game, that it has been years since DE actually added something I cared to grind for. I don't use Arcanes, Rivens, Helminth, Umbra Mods, or any of the new powercreep riddled weapons. So what's the point? In a game where the entire point of playing is to collect new stuff, what is the point of playing if there is nothing to collect? For me, every new update as become a couple hours of playtime, with months of waiting in between, because there is nothing worth grinding for. And without the grind, there is no game.

But nah, its fine. Its just a game that actually punishes me for playing it. ITS FINE. NO PROBLEMS HERE. MOVE ALONG CITIZEN.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Edit: Also, R2 is my melee attack. Using the default ps4 controls is ridiculous.

Uh, what do you use to fire weapons then? I still use the default controls, I think they actually work pretty well. The only thing I changed is moving my WF abilities to the touchpad.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

I have always felt that most games that have stamina only have it because they are "supposed to". It rarely improves the game in any meaningful way, and often actually detracts from it, by arbitrarily slowing you down from time to time.

There is actually a point to this. It stops players from just running past enemies indefinitely so you are forced to actually engage with them.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

exalteds need a relook (melee ones) and equal pool to normal melee of mods 

primary / secondary need buffs

warframes in general need a relook , but that all imo 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

That's a bug, when it doesn't bug you don't need to hit enemies 100m with a sniper. I use the operator to clear that bounty... When I see that they aren't near, I hop on the archwing to find them, works most of the time unless they are underground, sometimes I can still succed but when its buged I know for sure it's a failure. When I go as umbra + operator is even more easy.

Bug or not I couldn't see enemies. As fair I remember I used Titania and it was still failure. I've been farming Revenant for some time and I don't think I ever succeeded without Mesa.

Deimos bounties (normal one) are better (still they have bugs or weird things).

Still... there are places where, yes, you can melee but it might be much harder than shooting. And let's not forget that not all of us are masters. For me melees' damage and its limitation (range) is in good place. OP can be a speedster... who knows.

1 hour ago, KittySkin said:

Why the hell people use a weapon they find boring because its overpowered, like... I play for fun, not for power, not to boost my e-go, I go in, pick any S#&$ im in the mood to use and go bum bam against enemies.

Sometimes you have to grind for something nice. And "mine toys" just couldn't get job done.

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

There is actually a point to this. It stops players from just running past enemies indefinitely so you are forced to actually engage with them.

Sadly there is (sometimes) huge difference between you and enemy. If you cannot kill enemy, slowly killing him isn't always an option.

And we don't have to kill all enemies.

[Teljaxx]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

There is actually a point to this. It stops players from just running past enemies indefinitely so you are forced to actually engage with them.

In theory, sure. But in Warframe specifically, there are so many other ways to move, that didn't use stamina, it didn't do that very well. Plus, stamina brings so many other little annoyances into the game, is it really worth that one little bonus?

If DE actually wants us to stop just rushing past everything, they will need to do something far more drastic than limiting sprinting with stamina. Like removing Bullet Jumping, and probably Aim Gliding too. Though, I know that would be horribly unpopular, it would improve the game in several ways. It would make ignoring enemies much harder, since you couldn't just fly right over them all the time. It would make melee more high risk to use, since you couldn't simply Bullet Jump into or out of melee range whenever you wanted. And it would make all the other Parkour moves, like wallrunning, more important.

Again, it comes down to properly balancing systems with each other. And Bullet Jumping is such a powerful movement ability, it doesn't actually fit all that well with other systems. Like melee. In any game, higher mobility makes melee easier to use. And Bullet Jumping is the main thing that makes us so incredibly mobile. So either removing or limiting it will, by extension, also limit melee effectiveness.

Even though it is fun to use as is, I think adding a cooldown to Bullet Jumping, so we can't just mindlessly spam it all the time, would actually be a good idea. Again, it would add more risk vs. reward gameplay to the game, which it desperately needs.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Honestly this is just trolling at this point.

ah! yes the good'ol "i am absolutely against this guy's Opinion and experience so i must call them a troll to add value to my ill-informed answer"  

[KittySkin]

42 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

  You know why this matters? Because nothing in this game is free. If it were, then sure, who cares how broken and imbalanced it is? You can play around with it for a bit, have your fun, then move on to better things with nothing lost.

But that isn't the case. In Warframe, if it doesn't cost money, it costs time. And usually a lot of it. Everything in this game requires an investment before you can use it. So it better be worth the cost. And, personally, I don't find spending weeks tediously grinding for something, only to find that its so horribly designed that using it actually makes the game less fun to play, to be worth it.

The problem is that, at this point, I have been avoiding using so much of this game, that it has been years since DE actually added something I cared to grind for. I don't use Arcanes, Rivens, Helminth, Umbra Mods, or any of the new powercreep riddled weapons. So what's the point? In a game where the entire point of playing is to collect new stuff, what is the point of playing if there is nothing to collect? For me, every new update as become a couple hours of playtime, with months of waiting in between, because there is nothing worth grinding for. And without the grind, there is no game.

But nah, its fine. Its just a game that actually punishes me for playing it. ITS FINE. NO PROBLEMS HERE. MOVE ALONG CITIZEN.

Do you realize that instead of pmaying you are working, right?

I can relate to that mindset from when I was younger, taking a game this seriously, but if you feel "punished" by a game to this point, I think its a good call to take some distance from it and play other stuff.

Theres a lot of content I never touched or notnliked on release (every single open world, every single big boss, every single modular thing and railjack), and I just played other games in the meantime, played said modes with friends or when I was in the mood for it, its not a job that you have to endure, its a game, if you can enjoy grinding and farming in a game that revolves arround doing it, then theres something not working well there, maybe some time will help.

Dont take it as some kind of "you are sick" or any kind of insult, just some kind of "suggestion" from someone that spended 1 year away from the game because fortuna.

From time to time, remember its a game, not your daily work, and if its not fun, then so be it, play other stuff

[KittySkin]

12 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

In theory, sure. But in Warframe specifically, there are so many other ways to move, that didn't use stamina, it didn't do that very well. Plus, stamina brings so many other little annoyances into the game, is it really worth that one little bonus?

If DE actually wants us to stop just rushing past everything, they will need to do something far more drastic than limiting sprinting with stamina. Like removing Bullet Jumping, and probably Aim Gliding too. Though, I know that would be horribly unpopular, it would improve the game in several ways. It would make ignoring enemies much harder, since you couldn't just fly right over them all the time. It would make melee more high risk to use, since you couldn't simply Bullet Jump into or out of melee range whenever you wanted. And it would make all the other Parkour moves, like wallrunning, more important.

Again, it comes down to properly balancing systems with each other. And Bullet Jumping is such a powerful movement ability, it doesn't actually fit all that well with other systems. Like melee. In any game, higher mobility makes melee easier to use. And Bullet Jumping is the main thing that makes us so incredibly mobile. So either removing or limiting it will, by extension, also limit melee effectiveness.

Even though it is fun to use as is, I think adding a cooldown to Bullet Jumping, so we can't just mindlessly spam it all the time, would actually be a good idea. Again, it would add more risk vs. reward gameplay to the game, which it desperately needs.

Do you realize that bullet jump and all the new parkour system was created to replace coptering? People hated the stamina system and hated the old movement system.

While I do agre that melee damage NEEDS to be lower, making the game slower its not the best solution. The melee system have a lot of good things on it, mainly CC and mobility, if enemies resisted melee damage the same degree they resist primary/secondary weapons and melee combos gave you damage mitigation along with all the crowd control they give, then you could see people playing melee without instabreaking everything, more as a way to have CC and move throwg enemies than as a way to cheese them.

We need less damage on melee paired with damage mitigation so most frames can use it without dying or relying on cheesing with CC or invisibility.

The issue with the whole melee system are Weeping Wounds, Blood Rush and Condition Overload, and as long as those mods exosts the whole system will never be balanced.

Those 3 mods makes you want to remain in melee for A LOT of time because they benefit from that, and as long as combo related mods are there (CO its not even as half as broken as WW and BR) melee cant be balanced.

Its like whips with the old Maiming Strike.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

53 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

There's also no law that says I have to flush the toilet in my house when I take a dump, but I do it anyways because otherwise my house would smell like S#&$. While there may not be a law that a video game needs to be "balanced", being balanced is certainly better than the alternative. A balanced game is a consistent game. It's the difference between a game being Super Mario Bros and being E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial: one is a timeless masterpiece, the other is a meme. A balanced Warframe means guns and melee are equal. It means Nyx has just as much of a place in the game as Wukong. Why wouldn't this be a good thing? Why is it better that the game is so inconsistent and imbalanced?

An Akvasto will never be equal to a Bramma or a kronen.You would have to give the Akvasto such a massive increase in damage, crit and status that it would become unbalanced. 

You will also never balance 45 frames around each other, either. A white mage will never be a paladin or a black mage. They have different uses for different scenarios. 

You can't put cloudwalker and mesmer skin on Nyx. And you can't put miasma on wukong. They're all gonna do different things. 

I use nyx for my endurance runs, not wukong. They are clearly able to have the same place in the game. Someone has completed profit taker with basically every frame. So clearly they all have a place in the game.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Uh, what do you use to fire weapons then? I still use the default controls, I think they actually work pretty well. The only thing I changed is moving my WF abilities to the touchpad.

R1, with L1 being aim and L2 as secondary fire. 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

R1, with L1 being aim and L2 as secondary fire. 

I find this far weirder than the default, but hey whatever works for you!

Edit: The only thing I really don’t like about default PS4 controls is R3 for heavy attack, and I can’t find a good fix for it. After I moved abilities to the touchpad I mapped heavy attack to R1, but the touchpad doesn’t work for cycle-able abilities so I had to put abilities back on R1 to only use in those cases.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm not the one that's upset with the game. I'm also not the one that created the game and literally tweets that they'll uphold the "power fantasy" theme for its players. 

If you don't agree with the people that make the game, or the people that like the game how it is....that makes you the odd person out. No one made you log in. You're more than welcome to not log on.

I think there's a bit of a fundamental misunderstanding here.

I think that, when people say 'This is overpowered', they're talking about it from a design sense, not from a thematic sense.

 

Of course we're overpowered when it comes to the core tenets of the gameplay - it is a power fantasy. But from the perspective of design, being overpowered is an issue. If anything, it degrades the game's ability to deliver a power fantasy. I mean, go look at ANY well-regarded action setpiece. Be it, anime, movie, game, with fights of two humans, two superhumans or two armies. You've got music, sure, camera angles and all that, but there's also the choreography. Most great fights fights will feature changes in engagement range or setting, escalation in tension, and the 'advantage ball' (the one holding the advantage will change at least once during the fight).  Games try to replicate this with balance. Devil May Cry's style system encourages switching weapons in order to change the range of engagement and fighting style. Halo will give you big weapons, then let you run their ammo dry and force you to rely on weaker and weaker tools. Monster Hunter has Monster attacks be huge, disrupting, but heavily telegraphed so you can dodge them easily when you hold the advantage, but are put on the back foot from just one false step.

 

Warframe's balance has failed to achieve this. You can keep the same battle tactics throughout the whole mission, you can go all-out from start to finish, and when the game IS giving you pause, it's usually swung too far in the other direction and you're dead before you know it - rather than hanging on the very brink of death, fleeing for your life to fight back with renewed vigor and vengence once you have recovered. And whilst you can artificially create that experience, not only does it still reek of that artificiality, it also doesn't extend to new content. I can't play in this awesome-feeling fashion in Steel Path. I don't feel like I'm conquering a dangerous flesh-forest on Deimos with how easy it is. I'm not a badass space captain in Railjack when my enemies lie down and die politely when I get on board. I don't feel empowered. I feel coddled - or in some cases, when DE does try to make something 'hard' without fixing the core imbalances, I feel frustrated against nonsense damage values in hitscan and playground level 'they're immune to magic and swords and most guns, so there' approach to difficulty that DE has to substitute with.

To put  it another way - you CAN grind to a crazy level in the first few rooms of Final Fantasy 7, and make the whole game as much of an easy power trip fantasy as Warframe. But it's clearly not the intended experience, it's something you have to go out of your way to do. If playing in a fun, empowering way in Warframe is something you have to go out of your way to do, what does that say about the game?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

melee isn't perfect, I would've liked each of the weaponry types to have certain advantages over others e.g. Rapiers being excellent at high sustained DPS but only vs single targets, forcing you to "duel" enemies individually using your mobility to close the distance. Polearms would offer a way to strike multiple targets with ease but are not as fast, Heavy Blades being slow but with massive raw damage etc. as it stands, you can choose any melee and it'll work, which is nice, but either enemies need some kind of anti-melee counter or we'd have to let DE nerf melee somehow, which I know most people don't want.

I'd LOVE a system where more skilled and/or higher level enemies had a chance to perform a counterattack when you melee them. e.g. an Elite Lancer blocks a Sword Strike with his rifle and hits you away. you'd have to choose a moment to attack (such as while reloading) and strike them at an unexpected angle. the system could have a directional prompt above the enemy's head that tells you in which direction they're blocking and if you attack in that direction, it has a chance to get blocked and countered by the enemy. a bit of additional depth to enemy melee would be kind of nice.. though it's not something I'd ever expect DE to go through with.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

Sure, we can make the decision to not be OP. But we shouldn't have to. We shouldn't have to choose between having fun, and being effective. In a properly designed game, they would be the same thing. Besides, I already said that simply nerfing yourself doesn't actually so anything to make the game more fun. If anything, it makes it worse.

You don't seem to understand, that having better balance actually means MORE choices is what gear we use. We wouldn't have to choose between the meta flavor of the month, and everything else, because there would be no meta flavor of the month. If everything were equally useable, what you brought to a mission would be decided by what you enjoy using, not simply what has the right stats.

The "law" that says games need to be balanced is the law of success. Badly designed, lazy, unbalanced games should be less successful than the alternative. Therefore, all games should strive to be well made and well balanced. That's how the free market is supposed to work.

But, these days, that isn't really true anymore. Success usually comes down to marketing, not quality. Whichever game gets the most hype wins. And that's entirely because there are so many mindless consumers out there that don't actually care how good their entertainment is. As long as they have someone else to tell them what to play, so they don't have to think about anything, then they will be satisfied. That's why the "AAA" industry can put out so much objectively garbage games with objectively anti-fun things like microtransactions in them, yet still make absurd amounts of money on them.

Welcome to the capitalist hellscape that is the modern world! I'm not going to apologize for trying to do what little I can to try and make things better. And no, I don't care if that means less games pander to your terrible tastes in what's fun. Because you're idea of fun is just plain sad.

I never even heard of warframe until last year, so their marketing isn't very good. I simply tried it because it was like my second time ever looking in the Playstation store and liked the aesthetic. I realized it gave me way more freedom than other games I've played and decided it was my thing. 

Every game has imbalances. Every single one. And if there is a perfectly balanced game, there will still be terrible players that make anything look bad, and good players that make everything look good. 

In a balanced party of a healer, tank, and dps, that tank will be bad and wipe the group. That healer will be bad and wipe the group, and that dps will be bad and you'll end up fighting a boss for an hour because there's not good enough dps.

If people clearly like the game, it's for a reason. If you don't, you're better off taking a break until your impossible game utopia world comes to fruition.

[ReaverKane]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

they don't really make a huge significant difference, yes each combo "move" does different things, one has a gap closer, one has a slam, and one builds up combo counter more than the others.

 

but still, you won't really need them to the point of actually having your build focused on combo attakcs

No... What i mean is that Iron Phoenix has a impact and slash proc on its first hit with regular combo, while, for example Swooping Falcon only has Slash on second hit.

[Teljaxx]

4 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

Do you realize that instead of pmaying you are working, right?

I can relate to that mindset from when I was younger, taking a game this seriously, but if you feel "punished" by a game to this point, I think its a good call to take some distance from it and play other stuff.

Theres a lot of content I never touched or notnliked on release (every single open world, every single big boss, every single modular thing and railjack), and I just played other games in the meantime, played said modes with friends or when I was in the mood for it, its not a job that you have to endure, its a game, if you can enjoy grinding and farming in a game that revolves arround doing it, then theres something not working well there, maybe some time will help.

Dont take it as some kind of "you are sick" or any kind of insult, just some kind of "suggestion" from someone that spended 1 year away from the game because fortuna.

From time to time, remember its a game, not your daily work, and if its not fun, then so be it, play other stuff

That's exactly my point. You can't just play this game. If you do, you'll never get anywhere. You have to work at it, and grind for everything if you ever want to make progress. And that is terrible game design. A game shouldn't be like your Mom making you do chores before you can go outside and play.

The simple fact that its even possible to get burnt out on games like Warframe, and need to take a break for your own mental health, is absurd. And shows just how much it actually does to manipulate people into playing for thousands of hours, instead of actually being fun enough to play for that long.

Normally, when a game you're playing starts to get boring, you simply stop, and do something else. But games like Warframe are designed to keep you from doing that. Everything like limited time events, constant little updates, and daily login rewards are designed to keep you coming back no matter how much you want to stop. And even if you do stop, its also designed to keep you thinking about the game all the time, so you are never truly free of it. Whenever you're playing something else, some small part of the back of your mind will still be wondering what's going on in Warframe, or thinking that you could be spending your time grinding for something, instead of whatever else you're currently doing.

Really, I think everyone should stop playing Warframe, because it doesn't respect your time. And there are hundreds of other games out there that do. But that doesn't mean I don';t also want to see it improve, and become worth playing again. Because there is still some fun to be had here, its just too bad its buried under so much crap.

2 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

Do you realize that bullet jump and all the new parkour system was created to replace coptering? People hated the stamina system and hated the old movement system.

While I do agre that melee damage NEEDS to be lower, making the game slower its not the best solution. The melee system have a lot of good things on it, mainly CC and mobility, if enemies resisted melee damage the same degree they resist primary/secondary weapons and melee combos gave you damage mitigation along with all the crowd control they give, then you could see people playing melee without instabreaking everything, more as a way to have CC and move throwg enemies than as a way to cheese them.

We need less damage on melee paired with damage mitigation so most frames can use it without dying or relying on cheesing with CC or invisibility.

The issue with the whole melee system are Weeping Wounds, Blood Rush and Condition Overload, and as long as those mods exosts the whole system will never be balanced.

Those 3 mods makes you want to remain in melee for A LOT of time because they benefit from that, and as long as combo related mods are there (CO its not even as half as broken as WW and BR) melee cant be balanced.

Its like whips with the old Maiming Strike.

Sure, and Coptering was also terrible. It was an attempt to turn a bug into a game mechanic, which almost never works out well. And, it encouraged rushing, which is also a bad idea. Rushers are the people that want play your game the least, so basing whole mechanics around their playstyle means encouraging everyone to play the game less, and interact with as little of it as possible.

Since Bullet Jumping is basically Coptering 2.0, it has the same issues. It encourages simply flying past everything as fast as you can, instead of actually stopping to smell the roses. Or you know, actually interacting with the game, which is kind of important if you want people to enjoy it.

Plus, since most old tilesets weren't designed with Bullet Jumping in mind, it tends to break them a bit. Where there were once cool wall running paths, and other fun parkour things to do, now you can just fly over everything without a care in the world.

As I said, I don't think Bullet Jumping should be removed (that would probably cause riots at this point), but it does need some kind of limitations. It may not seem like it, but it is actually a big part of what makes us so overpowered in a lot of ways. Try not using it for a few missions, and you'll see what I mean. Dodging attacks and avoiding tough enemies becomes much harder. Getting into and out of melee combat is much less effective. You can't simply Bullet Jump and ground slam to stunlock everything you fight. And, you have to actually find more interesting paths though the level, since you cant just fly everywhere. A lot of things become much more interactive, and you actually have to make some choices, instead of just having Bullet Jumping as the best answer for every situation.

There are more ways to balance a game than simply modifying DPS. And DPS is actually not usually the real cause of the imbalance, anyway. It all depends on the environment. Like, how in Warframe, we pretty much always fight big groups of weak enemies, instead of a few tough ones. So, the most effective weapons are the ones that are best at killing big groups, and not ones that work best against single big targets. That's why melee weapons with long reach, guns with AOE of some sort, and Warframes with massive AOE damage output are always the most popular. Simply changing the DPS on these things won't do much to change their popularity, either, because its their other properties that make them so effective.

And, one of the other things that makes melee so effective it is relationship with mobility. You reduce player mobility, you reduce melee effectiveness without reducing DPS. If anything, this might actually call for a melee DPS increase, since it will become a lot riskier to use. And again, more risk vs. reward is what this game needs.

[CephalonCarnage]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I would never attempt to melee an eidolon Synovia

Well, someone did - and the effects were pretty inspring. Who needs primary weapons for Eidolons when you can one-hit them?!

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

18 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I think there's a bit of a fundamental misunderstanding here.

I think that, when people say 'This is overpowered', they're talking about it from a design sense, not from a thematic sense.

 

Of course we're overpowered when it comes to the core tenets of the gameplay - it is a power fantasy. But from the perspective of design, being overpowered is an issue. If anything, it degrades the game's ability to deliver a power fantasy. I mean, go look at ANY well-regarded action setpiece. Be it, anime, movie, game, with fights of two humans, two superhumans or two armies. You've got music, sure, camera angles and all that, but there's also the choreography. Most great fights fights will feature changes in engagement range or setting, escalation in tension, and the 'advantage ball' (the one holding the advantage will change at least once during the fight).  Games try to replicate this with balance. Devil May Cry's style system encourages switching weapons in order to change the range of engagement and fighting style. Halo will give you big weapons, then let you run their ammo dry and force you to rely on weaker and weaker tools. Monster Hunter has Monster attacks be huge, disrupting, but heavily telegraphed so you can dodge them easily when you hold the advantage, but are put on the back foot from just one false step.

 

Warframe's balance has failed to achieve this. You can keep the same battle tactics throughout the whole mission, you can go all-out from start to finish, and when the game IS giving you pause, it's usually swung too far in the other direction and you're dead before you know it - rather than hanging on the very brink of death, fleeing for your life to fight back with renewed vigor and vengence once you have recovered. And whilst you can artificially create that experience, not only does it still reek of that artificiality, it also doesn't extend to new content. I can't play in this awesome-feeling fashion in Steel Path. I don't feel like I'm conquering a dangerous flesh-forest on Deimos with how easy it is. I'm not a badass space captain in Railjack when my enemies lie down and die politely when I get on board. I don't feel empowered. I feel coddled - or in some cases, when DE does try to make something 'hard' without fixing the core imbalances, I feel frustrated against nonsense damage values in hitscan and playground level 'they're immune to magic and swords and most guns, so there' approach to difficulty that DE has to substitute with.

To put  it another way - you CAN grind to a crazy level in the first few rooms of Final Fantasy 7, and make the whole game as much of an easy power trip fantasy as Warframe. But it's clearly not the intended experience, it's something you have to go out of your way to do. If playing in a fun, empowering way in Warframe is something you have to go out of your way to do, what does that say about the game?

If you like a game, you're not going out of your way to do anything. You're just playing the game. 

I like being on my toes and being more aware to avoid a one-shot. I used to do competitive PVP, where slipping meant a one shot from another player. And players are faster and more responsive than AI, so warframes AI is nothing to me, but I understand everyone doesnt wanna play a "sweaty tryhard" type of gameplay, so it's ok for them to sit in a corner and press a couple buttons. 

[Teljaxx]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I never even heard of warframe until last year, so their marketing isn't very good. I simply tried it because it was like my second time ever looking in the Playstation store and liked the aesthetic. I realized it gave me way more freedom than other games I've played and decided it was my thing. 

Every game has imbalances. Every single one. And if there is a perfectly balanced game, there will still be terrible players that make anything look bad, and good players that make everything look good. 

In a balanced party of a healer, tank, and dps, that tank will be bad and wipe the group. That healer will be bad and wipe the group, and that dps will be bad and you'll end up fighting a boss for an hour because there's not good enough dps.

If people clearly like the game, it's for a reason. If you don't, you're better off taking a break until your impossible game utopia world comes to fruition.

Did I ever say I expect Warframe to become perfectly balanced? No. That's just your silly strawman talking.

The problem is not that Warframe isn't perfectly balanced. Its that Warframe is barely balanced at all. This is one of the worst balanced games I have ever played. And pretty much all the other ones are dead now, because of it.

The point isn't to strive for perfection, its simply to strive to be better. And there is A LOT of room for improvement here, even if you don't want to admit it. I have to wonder if you've ever actually played any other games if you really think this is the best there is.

Its also funny that you mention bad players, and their perception of balance, because in my experience, its always the bad players that fight the hardest to keep being overpowered. They are the ones that rely the most heavily on the crutch of having super high stats to get by. And, the ones why cry the loudest when you take away that crutch are also the ones that are too lazy to learn to walk on their own. Guess what you sound like?

[Redfeather75]

What if combo counter put your warframe into an escalating overdrive mode. And every primary weapon had an overdrive perk. Then you have to choose to stop building/maintaining combo to use primary weapons, so it's a balancing act. You don't lose combo counter from primary weapons though as that would be bad.

[Aldain]

Partially unrelated but does anyone know where this whole "Balance = bad" mentality came from?

It isn't just Warframe that suffers from this, I've seen the same arguments about "No game is balanced" being tossed around a lot these days and I want to know where such nonsense stems from.

[CephalonCarnage]

15 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

The simple fact that its even possible to get burnt out on games like Warframe, and need to take a break for your own mental health, is absurd. And shows just how much it actually does to manipulate people into playing for thousands of hours, instead of actually being fun enough to play for that long.

Yup. WF uses every gambling trick in the book to keep you from stepping away from the gaming machine. This is also why so many people are so averse to nerfing melee (and want to buff ranged weapons). Its because if every boss battle was an actual battle, you would not longer be able to farm those parts that you need. The time I wanted Nova, and it took me 32 runs to get the Systems component would have been an impossible task had it not been for the ability to charge in, kill the raptors without thinking (hell, I got so good at killing them so quickly that they would drop their power cores into the conveyors). Imagine if tha\t was a 10 minute battle and not a 10 second one!

That means that DE has to fudge things so that we end up with invulnerability stages and void-damage shields and the like for the bosses they want to be actually hard.

So understand that WF is a game of looting. The melee and shooting is completely a secondary part. Its a spin-the-wheel game that you are made to keep playing with those psychological tricks. You may think it matters that melee is OP, but its not. The whole game as a space ninja fighter is broken, and the fact we all keep coming back for more, unable to stop, is testimony to this. And that's why melee nerfs will be so resisted - people do not want it fixed because it isn't the part that truly needs fixing. You want the combat to be fun and exciting and meaningful. They want the combat to be over as quickly as possible so they can get the loot (repetitively)

Until the grind and the RNG and all the drops are accessible, they are the ones who are right here. Much as it pains me to say.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

If DE actually wants us to stop just rushing past everything, they will need to do something far more drastic than limiting sprinting with stamina. Like removing Bullet Jumping, and probably Aim Gliding too. Though, I know that would be horribly unpopular, it would improve the game in several ways. It would make ignoring enemies much harder, since you couldn't just fly right over them all the time. It would make melee more high risk to use, since you couldn't simply Bullet Jump into or out of melee range whenever you wanted. And it would make all the other Parkour moves, like wallrunning, more important.

It would game less WF and more FPS with some melee added. Sure, some limitation won't affect too much... but I'm afraid we cannot stop at what you said. There are other ways to "fly through" enemies, like:

- Titania

- Archwing

- Rolls

and probably more.

And you have to remember that wallrunning isn't always available (or at least easy to do). In certain tilesets you may end up rarely using whole (or at least the bigger part of) spectrum of movement.