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Gara Prime: Hotfix 30.3.5


[DE]Megan
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Can u guys just fix this network issue, I can't join session of most players (stuck at please wait), this is very embarrassing to still have this issue in 2021

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On 2021-06-10 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Megan said:
  • Fixed some Affinity double dipping with Sevagoth & his Shadow/Shadow Claws.

  • Fixed Sevagoth Shadow/Shadow Claws kills not granting Focus if Sevagtoh has a Focus Lens.

Cool, Sev "fixes". Except I think the first one made focus earning broken. The second one referenced here: does seem to be (partially) fixed, but some issues are outstanding.

I'll be updating the thread linked above with the following testing results:

Using the same kit i used in the link above (only Sevagoth has basic focus lens, no lens on other equipment) here are my ESO testing results:

  • Entering Conduit with Sevagoth's Shadow: Still no focus buff applied.
  • Entering Conduit with Sevagoth:
    • Focus Buff is applied.
    • Shadow DOES appear to contribute to focus gain, but it is at a heavily nerfed amount. Test results below (No screenshots because I'm sick of documenting this issue, but enjoy playing Sevagoth enough to type it out.)
       
  • Focus Gain Results for ESO Zones 2 & 3 on 6/12/21
    • Entering a conduit with Sevagoth's Shadow: 0 gain (focus buff never applied, still bugged)
    • Entering with Sevagoth then entering and exiting shadow 3 times (due to shadow death)
      • Sevagoth's meter remained full the entire time, so I was able to instantly recast shadow. Bug?
      • 118 focus gain by the time the buff expired. The efficiency remained at 99% for Zone 2, so I expected much more than this.
        • This seems quite low for solely killing with an ability.
      • Tested it a second time: started at 583 focus when I went into shadow mode w/ 30s on the clock. Ended at 680, with the total focus gain for zone 2 reporting 184. This is a total gain of 97 while in shadow mode, and killing substantially more enemies.
      • For reference, in zone 2 with a horrible unoptimized Atlas with the same focus lens, I earned 67 focus without really killing any enemies.
    • Entering with sevagoth and using abilities 1& 2 + secondary weapon / melee weapons (no lenses)
      • Zone 3 Test 1: 400 focus gain.
      • Zone 4 focus gain killing almost exclusively with a kuva nukor: 2300 focus. (Note my kavat may have buffed me, probably, not sure)
      • Zone 3 focus gain within 10 seconds of my bad atlast build had 167 focus gain within around 10s (then atlas died) Either way, this was still greater than anything I got with Shadow killing hordes of enemies.
      • Finally, an Excal Umbra (same lens as Sevagoth) using only his Exalted weapon +  other abilities during the conduit timer: 2200 focus on zone 3

Conclusion:

  • Technically Sevagoth can now gain focus while in shadow form, albeit at a extremely reduced rate compared to other frames with exalted abilities.
  • Also, since Shadow can't attain the focus buff from conduits, I'm also assuming that focus orbs still dont spawn while in Shadow mode. So thats still bugged most likely.

 

Edited by Robbery525
Test with Excal Umbra
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12 hours ago, kd112 said:

Let's get hildryn fixed before we "keep our heads down"  yall slackin

Considering you don't even own Hildryn or played her.

Nothing wrong with Hildryn imo, what do you think is wrong with her ?  

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In relic excavation if the host leaves, next dig site does not spawn (but hey, who cares about host related nonsense, move along)
In relic excavation old dig site markers remain after they are completed, so after a while in the mission we get confused which one is next dig site and which one is old one

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On 2021-06-10 at 9:47 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Fixed an exploit that would let you bypass most of the Profit Taker Heist.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO 😱 !!!!

Some things just shouldn't be fixed.... Maybe.....

 

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14 hours ago, -Reinhardsson- said:

Why is there a timeout on syndicate Disruption missions ?!??

Don't you want me to find all the medals, or something ??!?

 

So...I cannot speak for DE.  At the same time, I can speak to what they've said and done.  Disruptions are a game mode where you can theoretically stall out the game, and prevent the natural level progression.  That is to say, if you simply do not activate the final tower you can have an infinite amount of enemies spawning at a set level range forever.  This doesn't seem like a great situation...until you understand that you can farm like mad.  Yeah...as long as the enemies you want are spawning, you can kill them at your leisure.  This means that you have no difficulty in farming things with fractional percentage drop rates, because you can force spawn rates higher.

 

DE originally found this "bug" and addressed it by installing a time-out on endless missions which could be forced to hang.  Of course, they didn't ever plan on sufficiently testing this out....because the problem was solved.  Now, introduce the corpus ship tileset's insano RNG structure.  That is to say rarely the map can be insanely huge, and the branching paths are so long that without simply rushing there's no way to get the medallions.  Thing is...this is a 1 in dozens problem.  The perception is that people cheesing the RNG system to get rewards is much more of an issue....and thus we have our current situation.

 

 

In a sentence; stopping farming cheese means more than truly fixing the systems. 

 

For the record I agree with your frustration.  That said, I don't see this as ever getting a proper fix, until some other system breaks.

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Can anybody else verify that the affinity not sticking when arriving to dry dock is still occuring to the plexus?  Hit rank 24 the other night before I logged off and first mission the next day I ranked it up to 22 during my first mission of the day i.e. lost 2 levels overnight.

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On 2021-06-10 at 10:35 PM, Nutochi said:

I wish that hotfix came when i was farming Trin, but hey its a really welcomed change!

(Pls swap Hydroid and Equinox around - one should be in the water and other in the day/night planet)

I'm all for your suggestion. You have my vote. :)

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You focusing on the next update is totally fine. Just make it a bit better than what you came up with in regards to “Command R10”. ;) Not that it’s bad, bad. Just not sure that’s what anybody expected after you guys saying you were holding off until you came up with something really good.

I kinda like it, but don’t seeing it making any difference as it’s not exactly needed in the current state of RJ. But we’ll see. 🙌🏾


 - In regards to the upcoming melee nerfs. Please, please involve a mix of players that actually know why so many of us enjoy melee.

It’s not all about the effectiveness and damage. And hearing you guys talk about it on streams is really, really frightening and a bit cringe.

 

Especially Scott and Geoff:

Scott; “… it makes no sense. You can’t even see what is going on…” (U wot? What does that even mean?)

Geoff; “… It doesn’t work for ME …” (Doesn’t work for HIM? Ok.)

 

Of course referring to the attack speed and us “not being able to see all the beautiful, beautiful animations you have worked so hard on”.

The issue is, that NO ONE will ever love your creation as much as you do and the combo animations are just not as important to us as they are to you. We don’t always use stuff as you thought we would. What you thought would be important when creating it is rarely the case in our “world”. That’s true for a lot of things other than games too.

We care about the flow, speed, gameplay and efficiency etc. - How stuff FEELS to use. And if the last hit in a combo looks good, that’s a plus.


What we definitely do not want is to be taken hostage to soothe your ego and pride of creation.

Us: - “… I can’t move and I’m not hitting anything!??!”

Scott and Geoff: - “Yeah…. But look at the animation! Isn’t it just the coolest thing EVER? 🤩

 

 - What we care about more is how these animations makes us move, how they feel and how they translates the damage. That’s true for almost all the animations. How it looks and feels when we jump, run, bullet jump etc. etc. Looking cool is great and definitely expected, but not the most important thing at all.

Why do you think we care so much about the look of the idle animations? (HINT: The answer is in the name).

 

I’m sure most people are fine with only being able to equip 1 attack speed mod (Rivens not counting), you could even make hits have diminishing damage output or not make every hit actually land. What we are NOT ok with is you guys making the knee jerk nerfs that takes away from the feel of the gameplay. Especially because of your own pride, the cost of it being our enjoyment.

You actually made melee really, really good and FUN. In almost every way. That’s rare. Take pride in that. Take lessons from that and implement similar to other systems. Melee is not OP (like you think) in its own. We don’t go through missions just pressing one button. We jump around, use the combos/heavy attacks etc. We use primer weapons and many different game mechanics that compliments each other. Kinda like you intended this game to be played I’m sure. THAT’S what makes melee as good as it is. You seem to not even know that.

It’s obvious you guys don’t know how to handle it when you actually succeed with something to this degree and that thing making it obvious where and what needs major improvement. Nerfing something or making it irrelevant to make something else more relevant… You know that is not the way at the best of times.

- Let’s talk feedback. You rely heavily on how things are received by the chat during streams. But you must know that “all” those people do not represent the community to its fullest extend. Not even close. It would NOT work as a representative sample in any scientific study. Most players don’t watch it. Most players don’t ever comment on it. Not even when you’re are doing something shiz. Most players watch recaps etc. Like most players don’t attend TennoCon.

Unhappy players probably just stop playing, or play less. Waiting for someone else to push for changes. You still haven’t figured out how to just push an in-game inbox message out asking players to rate changes, ideas etc. Doing that on the forums is as reliable as thinking the live chat is anything to go by.

Also the commentary on your hotfixes aren’t representative either. Especially not the “Thank you for the hotfix.” ones. They are akin to people clapping when a plane lands. When the MINIMUM expected is fulfilled.

On the other hand - if people in your stream mostly dislikes something then you know you are doing something wrong. Kinda like when Creators like TacticalPotato actually criticizes you. Then you know it’s real. Not that he is doing anything wrong at all. He is just heavily focused on facts and positivity. So listen when he he, and others like him, calls you out. And listen to ppl like Kategari, GazTTV and Brozime. I get it hurts your feelings at times etc. But they are right 90 % of the time. And the only reason they get as mad as they do, is literally because they love the game.

But the praise in those other cases is very rarely a community expression by any means. But it mostly is when it comes from people that are kinda harsh. You must know that.

- Hoping for the best. Wishing you the best of luck with it. 🙏🏾

Edited by XXOUTT
Typos, expanding on feedback etc.
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YTXYSPh.png

Seems like there is a dumb bug after the update. Within the same game, just walking around, I suddenly fell into nothingness. Unstuck works but because of the bug happens more often than the timer to use unstuck again which is also dumb

Edited by Dippy_Daredevil
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Hey DE, let's talk for a minute.  In the last 24 months you've done a lot to remove some of the old grind from the system.  It's been insanely inconsistent, entirely out of left field, and functionally it's gotten to the point of being silly for those of us who spent literal years dealing with some of it...so that newer players don't have to.

 

That said, it's understandable if your veteran players are bleeding off and you want new players.  The lower that barrier to entry is the better....and it'll be three years of daily logins until people start earning 4 weapon slots for logins.

 

 

That said, let's talk about an insanely uneven game mode that needs a work-over.  Namely, the infested salvage.  It's a mess right now...but you can fix it with little more than a few item changes, some costing changes, and better rewards.  Let's talk this through, but I'll bullet point the fixes in order.

1) Remove the common and uncommon mods from the C rotation rewards.

2) Replace the mods with Scintillant.  

3) Remove the mod rewards for the other rounds.  

4) Replace the mods with rare Deimos minerals (minerals only, forcing refinement).

5) Remove the Tellurium cost from creating the antiserum injectors.

6) Change the complete fieldrons to just the fieldron samples equivalent.

 

Let's explain these changes by category. 

1 and 3 are removing garbage rewards, that upon earning them make me want to just log out.  I'm sure that's a universal truth, because by the time you've unlocked all the way to Eris having a maxed stretch mod is pretty much the punchline to a bad joke. 

2 and 4 are linking Deimos and Eris as places that the infested can be found.  The point here is to give us some way to earn this stuff that isn't the vaults (you did remove these rewards from their pool), or RNG mining. 

5 and 6 are making investment into this game mode worth it.  What do I mean here?  Well, 2 Tellurium and 2 Fieldrons.  A rare drop from a single tileset, and an item which either requires further clan research and build time or running inconsistent invasion mission.  This is all on top of the build costs....so let's actually do the math here, assuming that you have the research done and all of the resources.

  1. Purchase (15,000 credits) blue print.  Assemble resources (10 samples, 1 control module, 500 salvage, 250 plastids, 15000 credits).  Wait 12 hours.
  2. Purchase (15,000 credits) blue print.  Assemble resources (10 samples, 1 control module, 500 salvage, 250 plastids, 15000 credits).  Wait 12 hours.
  3. Purchase (15,000 credits) blue print.  Assemble resources (2 Fieldron, 6000 salvage, 500 antiserum injectors, 2 Tellurium, 30000 credits).  Wait 24 hours.

Oh goody.  I have an item that costs 105000 credits, will take a minimum of 48 hours to build, and the benefit is that I can reset my armor on the mission,  That is of course, assuming I've already pulled 500 antiserum injectors...an amount that I could earn after running about 8 waves (I got 600-800 in eight waves....but RNG and all).  Combine this with the Tellurium and research costs....and I have literally no reason to come back to the current mission after I've managed to grind out a pair of Nidus blue print sets (1 for play, 1 for the helminth).

 

 

Now, why focus on this?  Ironically, if you removed the garbage mods this would be an excellent and rewarding mission.  The Neo and Axi relic quantity is high, barring idiocy like endo, the rewards are genuinely good, and the decay of armor actually makes the infested something to be mildly concerned with.  This would also give us a niche case to use the infested impedance aura....because there's no real reason anywhere else in the game.

Seriously, this would be a great opportunity to fix some broken stuff from the past, and bridge it into some of the newer content, without any effort.  I know that this will be disregarded, but had to suggest it.  At this point you walked back the nav coordinates that one day one made getting mesa a pain.  You walked back the insano price of railjack which was the connective tissue of the game...but only for veterans...but not.  You've walked back the Animo beacons.  You entirely eliminated the beacons required for Vay Hek.  At this point the only two things I can think of that remain are the rathuum points for facing Kela, and the cost of vitus essence to get access to Grendel.  That, and the bizarro frustration that is getting the final bit of Harrow from defections.

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14 hours ago, XXOUTT said:

You focusing on the next update is totally fine. Just make it a bit better than what you came up with in regards to “Command R10”. ;) Not that it’s bad, bad. Just not sure that’s what anybody expected after you guys saying you were holding off until you came up with something really good.

I kinda like it, but don’t seeing it making any difference as it’s not exactly needed in the current state of RJ. But we’ll see. 🙌🏾


 - In regards to the upcoming melee nerfs. Please, please involve a mix of players that actually know why so many of us enjoy melee.

It’s not all about the effectiveness and damage. And hearing you guys talk about it on streams is really, really frightening and a bit cringe.

 

Especially Scott and Geoff:

Scott; “… it makes no sense. You can’t even see what is going on…” (U wot? What does that even mean?)

Geoff; “… It doesn’t work for ME …” (Doesn’t work for HIM? Ok.)

 

Of course referring to the attack speed and us “not being able to see all the beautiful, beautiful animations you have worked so hard on”.

The issue is, that NO ONE will ever love your creation as much as you do and the combo animations are just not as important to us as they are to you. We don’t always use stuff as you thought we would. What you thought would be important when creating it is rarely the case in our “world”. That’s true for a lot of things other than games too.

We care about the flow, speed, gameplay and efficiency etc. - How stuff FEELS to use. And if the last hit in a combo looks good, that’s a plus.


What we definitely do not want is to be taken hostage to soothe your ego and pride of creation.

Us: - “… I can’t move and I’m not hitting anything!??!”

Scott and Geoff: - “Yeah…. But look at the animation! Isn’t it just the coolest thing EVER? 🤩

 

 - What we care about more is how these animations makes us move, how they feel and how they translates the damage. That’s true for almost all the animations. How it looks and feels when we jump, run, bullet jump etc. etc. Looking cool is great and definitely expected, but not the most important thing at all.

Why do you think we care so much about the look of the idle animations? (HINT: The answer is in the name).

 

I’m sure most people are fine with only being able to equip 1 attack speed mod (Rivens not counting), you could even make hits have diminishing damage output or not make every hit actually land. What we are NOT ok with is you guys making the knee jerk nerfs that takes away from the feel of the gameplay. Especially because of your own pride, the cost of it being our enjoyment.

You actually made melee really, really good and FUN. In almost every way. That’s rare. Take pride in that. Take lessons from that and implement similar to other systems. Melee is not OP (like you think) in its own. We don’t go through missions just pressing one button. We jump around, use the combos/heavy attacks etc. We use primer weapons and many different game mechanics that compliments each other. Kinda like you intended this game to be played I’m sure. THAT’S what makes melee as good as it is. You seem to not even know that.

It’s obvious you guys don’t know how to handle it when you actually succeed with something to this degree and that thing making it obvious where and what needs major improvement. Nerfing something or making it irrelevant to make something else more relevant… You know that is not the way at the best of times.

- Let’s talk feedback. You rely heavily on how things are received by the chat during streams. But you must know that “all” those people do not represent the community to its fullest extend. Not even close. It would NOT work as a representative sample in any scientific study. Most players don’t watch it. Most players don’t ever comment on it. Not even when you’re are doing something shiz. Most players watch recaps etc. Like most players don’t attend TennoCon.

Unhappy players probably just stop playing, or play less. Waiting for someone else to push for changes. You still haven’t figured out how to just push an in-game inbox message out asking players to rate changes, ideas etc. Doing that on the forums is as reliable as thinking the live chat is anything to go by.

Also the commentary on your hotfixes aren’t representative either. Especially not the “Thank you for the hotfix.” ones. They are akin to people clapping when a plane lands. When the MINIMUM expected is fulfilled.

On the other hand - if people in your stream mostly dislikes something then you know you are doing something wrong. Kinda like when Creators like TacticalPotato actually criticizes you. Then you know it’s real. Not that he is doing anything wrong at all. He is just heavily focused on facts and positivity. So listen when he he, and others like him, calls you out. And listen to ppl like Kategari, GazTTV and Brozime. I get it hurts your feelings at times etc. But they are right 90 % of the time. And the only reason they get as mad as they do, is literally because they love the game.

But the praise in those other cases is very rarely a community expression by any means. But it mostly is when it comes from people that are kinda harsh. You must know that.

- Hoping for the best. Wishing you the best of luck with it. 🙏🏾

 

While I appreciate your sentiment, let's take a walk down memory lane to understand the people you are talking about.

I will cite only one instance, because it encapsulates everything.  Check youtube for a creator by the name of Rahetalius.  Instead of levelling criticism and citing opinion, he made an extensive video and cited issues that were objectively supported factually.  Literally no attacks.  Names were cited, but only as who had what official capacity or who committed what act.  It was more investigative journalism than you can find in most newspapers.

The response to said video was apocalyptic.  DE responded as though this was a personal attacks...and it took an effort by the majority of the community to get DE to stop.  It took more effort to get them to listen.  It...well frankly given the creator purge there never seems to have been forgiveness or learning.

I reinforce the later point (not listening and learning) because instead of admitting wrongdoing there was suddenly "long standing plans" to go from a community forum policed by agents DE appointed from the community, to an outside moderation group policing based upon the rules laid out in the TOS.  They even, in that response, cited that it was "not because of any recent events."  A statement that was apparently...difficult to reconcile with reality.

In short, DE doesn't know how to take criticism and never has.  Whether this is a function of being Canadian, or they themselves not having the ability to dissociate from the product, it doesn't matter.  They only learn by faltering player count.

 

 

Now...let me be blunt about your feedback.  The creators are not right 90% of the time.  Let me explain this with a hot take from Brozime.  "How do we make guns relevant?  Dramatically increase their damage and dramatically reduce their ammo pool."  This was a sentiment that he shared...and I literally see nobody else sharing it.  Likewise, watch any two of his yearly ratings videos back to back....and note that they aren't the same.  This is a function of being driven by the feels rather than logic, and is not a criticism.  It is a criticism of non-factual feedback.  I say this because your latter point matters more.  When you have many people with the same feedback, all looking at your presented facts from different angles, there is much cause for concern.

To that end, let's look at the inputs to evaluate. 

Movement 1.0 to 2.0 was generally a good thing...but DE really messed up with some frames who had a movement ability.  Zephyr literally sat for years forgotten. 

Pets 1.9x, or whatever you want to call the current iteration, is still a mess.  Stone stupid AI, poor scaling, and an inability to care about most of them given the 3-5 stand outs (your numbers may vary) means that most of the time they're either buff generators or doing a task.  Case in point Oxylus....or the fishing/plant scanning meh sentinel.

Melee is on 3.0.  It was initially almost useless in the ancient days.  It was then a last resort.  When 3.0 came around it brought the combo counter into use, had scaling damage, and didn't favor either status or critical.  Both, or even hybrid, builds were fantastic.  It was great...until you then look at the rest of the systems and realize that they had no such scaling system and thus literally cannot compete.

Finally, but by no means the only thing, we got the Paracesis.  A single novelty sentient slayer blade, with the unique mechanic of requiring 5 forma to fully unlock and adding that capacity to the weapon mod capacity.  Of course, with five forma there was literally no build that you couldn't place on the thing already.  That was something unique....until it wasn't.  It migrated to the Kuva weapons...so a grind, on top of a grind, on top of a grind, on top of a grind, could have a grind for 5 forma and the subsequent 180 levels to max out added.  That DE promised would be a unique grind for them...until the necramechs came out...but only after people did the 20 seconds of math to figure out that the 12 mod slots were a poisoned apple....because even if all the slots were polarized you couldn't equip a mod in each given their costs.  The response was not to rebalance, or even to offer an Aura like mod, but to slap on a 180 level grind, another 5 forma, and call it a day.

 

Hmmm....  It looks like my extended point is that DE cannot be held to promises.  It looks like they often deliver the things they said they would not do.  It also seems like instead of understanding and fixing things they slap a bandage on it, and will get around to fixing it "soon."  Note the genesis of the meme there...as well as some bitterness about DE being inept with communication and transparency.  Let's also review the communication from DE.

We're going to rework the damage from guns, so that they're viable to use.

We're looking at some minor nerfs to melee, but largely improving the performance of guns to match.

-DE releases the impact procs create slash procs instead mod...which given the stupidly favored damage of slash procs functionally screams "We don't know how to balance this against slash, but know we can't nerf slash.  Just make this mod an Impact only Hunter's Munitions, and call it a day." bandage fixing.-

Leaked developer build information implies that the newest attempt might see a 200-300% gun damage increase....if no melee is equipped.  Oh joy.  A static buff which doesn't scale....so functionally it is capped and potentially won't scale like the faction buff mods.

The latest commentary from the developer is not even trying to soften the melee nerf.  They're telegraphing this as the slow boiled frog....because if they were honest two months ago there would have been outrage.  Today though, there's nothing.  The people that are angry are those that saw this with DE for the last five years, and not the newer players whose attention spans have been exceeded.  With DE you have to go on a stream, and type "When Ghoul Saw DE" to get a response from a promise that was made when the first ghouls were announced.  

Wrapping all of this up, as a veteran of the game if they're afraid DE is going to screw this up.  I'll put my money on yes.  Before you do though, let's define a veteran.  Play at least once a week, for no less than two hours.  Play for at least two years...though three would be preferred.  Play during at least one update launch...before the inevitable three plus hot fixes required to return stability.  I don't have a high bar for being a veteran...because all of the people I used to play with started to meet that bar...and promptly quit.  Their commentary was that this was a farming simulator, built on bad RNG, and a buggy nightmare.  They also commented that DE didn't fix, they added more.  They changed, but never planned for change.  These things sound prophetic?

 

 

 

Now regarding the commentary about being too fast, and the few edge cases....I don't think that DE is capable of a fair argument here.  Allow me to explain, with their own handiwork.  Does anyone remember in melee 2.0 why the Atterax was such a beast?  Yeah, it had crit, but it could nuke whole rooms through walls.  It had a substantial length as a whip, and the range mods were all percentage based.  That 1 meter range sword could be 2.2 meters (as an example), but the 3 meter Atterax was suddenly 6.6 meters.  Holy crap, no wonder the polearms and whips were so heavily favored.

How did DE eventually fix things?  Well, they changed the mod to be a set additional range.  That's skipping out on some steps though.  First they made the whip not go through any solids....meaning that you couldn't nuke enemies through walls.  Good, right?  Well, no.  Between all of the random geometry in levels, and enemies themselves being solid, you now couldn't use long range weapons.  Fine, after more complaints they allowed semi-solids and enemies not to prevent hit detection.  OK....not terrible.  Remember though, this is still with a % increase range.  Combine this with assured criticals (maiming strike), and melee still far outstripped guns....and this has been in-game for literally years.  Look back, and you can see people recommending Adaro runs for focus farming years ago.  So....did DE even fix this with melee 3.0, despite the changes?

 

My point here is not to criticize you, but to ask whether DE even understands their own issue.  I would hazard to say that someone has shown them some pretty nutty edge cases...and instead of putting them into perspective they've decided to salt the earth like they usually do.  Case in point, the sentiment for the Zephyr Prime setup was a solid meh for Zephyr, some edge love for the Tiberon, and some ok appreciation for the Kronen.  The melee update dropped and tonfas now had a substantive range, excellent speed, and decent damage.  The Kronen Prime then shot up the riven scale....and ate a bunch of disposition changes.  Today the Kronen Prime is by far the best of the Zephyr pack....and it's because you get fast attacks in a wide area.  This is prime, excusing the pun, opportunity to review only that weapon group, and maybe scale the damage to the speed better.  The problem is not that attacks are too fast, but that the Kronen Prime utterly breaks the power curve.

So....maybe instead of an edge case they can show on stream, DE should use some of that data and crunch out the outlying weapons.  Maybe then, the problem will be clearer.  Of course that's not what is being communicated to us.  We just have vague, and increasingly threatening, promises that the one great system will eat nerfs.

 

 

 

As a final compendium, let me offer just a few ways that I've heard to address the melee scaling issue.  These are not complete or balanced, but could be combined to not nerf melee, increase player power, and feel like DE actually gives a crap.

  1. Shields popped by guns function off of a damage threshold.  If exceeded the target will be stun locked for a short duration.  This allows enemies to have shield gating, but not penalize players for taking high damage low fire rate weapons.  Right now using something like the Opticor is penalized by shielded enemies, because 200k damage means nothing if you always need at least two shots to kill a level 5 mook.
  2. Guns get their own combo counter style damage increaser.  Think like melee, or like sniper rifles.  
  3. Guns level up like warframes.  Instead of just mod capacity they increase to full damage (at 400% of current value).  All base damage increase mods are removed from the game.  This effectively increases their power, but also removes a required mod slot.  This opens a slot for something else...like how right now melee doesn't require point strike if you build to take advantage of the combo multiplier.
  4. Impact, Slash, and Puncture are reworked.  Slash maintains damage, but said damage has a longer duration with lower value ticks.  Same loss, but much slower.  Impact stuns a target rigid, instead of ragdolling them.  On top of this it opens the enemy to finishers.  Puncture procs create Banshee like weak points on the target.  If one of these weak points is hit it does some multiplier of the base damage, ignoring all armor and causing the target to flee in terror.  Slash is less weighted, because the game prefers dead over bleeding.  Impact is more weighted for weapons that kill from afar or at point blank...because the headshot bonuses are pretty sweet, unless you can get a finisher.  Puncture is a fantastic crowd control, for high volume of fire weapons.  All of these benefit guns because right now the only play is hunter's munitions for bleed or status spreaders.  The former is simply outclassed as levels rise and the later is a means to maximize melee.  With these altered procs at least distance combat can be useful for something.
  5. etc....  (everyone who plays has an opinion, but permutations of the above seem most common)

 

Instead, what we're likely to see is bandage mods.  We'll have one or two that are genuinely interesting, a couple with niche cases, and the remainder that most players cannot see a usage for in regular play...but somebody will find a single niche usage for to create a million damage....and will then promptly be forgotten about because setting up things in the simulacrum are entirely different from running them in-game.  The people cited have all seen this dozens of times before, and DE has never fundamentally understood their failures enough to change, so as the saying goes 'Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it."  The only question is how long we'll stick around for the ride.  I can't say I'm seeing a reason to care if they continue this crap.

To be clear, the crap I refer to (in this instance) is raids.  More years gone than present.  Always "a possibility."  Always hinted at.  You then look at the buggy state of the game, and read that DE found it too exhausting to maintain them.  Then you remember that a prime access can break basic mechanics....and I just hope that they stop baiting people to believe that they'll be back...or if they ever come back, they will have the dedicated community they once had.  Those people who led the raid school bus aren't here anymore.  Why in hades would they be?  The raids thing is a diversion, but it hints at an underlying truth.  I could have cited dozens of issues....but chose a whole new can of worms.  How many worm cans have to exist, before there's no hope of things not being implement-fight-change slightly-outdate the outrage-bleed players-draw new ones-blame veterans for being too salty-promise the people that remain the moon-repeat?

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On 2021-06-10 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Fixes:

 

  • Fixed some Affinity double dipping with Sevagoth & his Shadow/Shadow Claws.

I thought that the "double dipping" was to counter the Sheer number of forma Sevagoth & his Shadow/Shadow Claws can eat. I was especially grateful for this little bug while experimenting with builds and the two in one play-style. I can understand why you bought it back in line with other frames, but I'm sad to see it go.

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7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

While I appreciate your sentiment, let's take a walk down memory lane to understand the people you are talking about.

I will cite only one instance, because it encapsulates everything.  Check youtube for a creator by the name of Rahetalius.  Instead of levelling criticism and citing opinion, he made an extensive video and cited issues that were objectively supported factually.  Literally no attacks.  Names were cited, but only as who had what official capacity or who committed what act.  It was more investigative journalism than you can find in most newspapers.

The response to said video was apocalyptic.  DE responded as though this was a personal attacks...and it took an effort by the majority of the community to get DE to stop.  It took more effort to get them to listen.  It...well frankly given the creator purge there never seems to have been forgiveness or learning.

I reinforce the later point (not listening and learning) because instead of admitting wrongdoing there was suddenly "long standing plans" to go from a community forum policed by agents DE appointed from the community, to an outside moderation group policing based upon the rules laid out in the TOS.  They even, in that response, cited that it was "not because of any recent events."  A statement that was apparently...difficult to reconcile with reality.

In short, DE doesn't know how to take criticism and never has.  Whether this is a function of being Canadian, or they themselves not having the ability to dissociate from the product, it doesn't matter.  They only learn by faltering player count.

 

 

Now...let me be blunt about your feedback.  The creators are not right 90% of the time.  Let me explain this with a hot take from Brozime.  "How do we make guns relevant?  Dramatically increase their damage and dramatically reduce their ammo pool."  This was a sentiment that he shared...and I literally see nobody else sharing it.  Likewise, watch any two of his yearly ratings videos back to back....and note that they aren't the same.  This is a function of being driven by the feels rather than logic, and is not a criticism.  It is a criticism of non-factual feedback.  I say this because your latter point matters more.  When you have many people with the same feedback, all looking at your presented facts from different angles, there is much cause for concern.

To that end, let's look at the inputs to evaluate. 

Movement 1.0 to 2.0 was generally a good thing...but DE really messed up with some frames who had a movement ability.  Zephyr literally sat for years forgotten. 

Pets 1.9x, or whatever you want to call the current iteration, is still a mess.  Stone stupid AI, poor scaling, and an inability to care about most of them given the 3-5 stand outs (your numbers may vary) means that most of the time they're either buff generators or doing a task.  Case in point Oxylus....or the fishing/plant scanning meh sentinel.

Melee is on 3.0.  It was initially almost useless in the ancient days.  It was then a last resort.  When 3.0 came around it brought the combo counter into use, had scaling damage, and didn't favor either status or critical.  Both, or even hybrid, builds were fantastic.  It was great...until you then look at the rest of the systems and realize that they had no such scaling system and thus literally cannot compete.

Finally, but by no means the only thing, we got the Paracesis.  A single novelty sentient slayer blade, with the unique mechanic of requiring 5 forma to fully unlock and adding that capacity to the weapon mod capacity.  Of course, with five forma there was literally no build that you couldn't place on the thing already.  That was something unique....until it wasn't.  It migrated to the Kuva weapons...so a grind, on top of a grind, on top of a grind, on top of a grind, could have a grind for 5 forma and the subsequent 180 levels to max out added.  That DE promised would be a unique grind for them...until the necramechs came out...but only after people did the 20 seconds of math to figure out that the 12 mod slots were a poisoned apple....because even if all the slots were polarized you couldn't equip a mod in each given their costs.  The response was not to rebalance, or even to offer an Aura like mod, but to slap on a 180 level grind, another 5 forma, and call it a day.

 

Hmmm....  It looks like my extended point is that DE cannot be held to promises.  It looks like they often deliver the things they said they would not do.  It also seems like instead of understanding and fixing things they slap a bandage on it, and will get around to fixing it "soon."  Note the genesis of the meme there...as well as some bitterness about DE being inept with communication and transparency.  Let's also review the communication from DE.

We're going to rework the damage from guns, so that they're viable to use.

We're looking at some minor nerfs to melee, but largely improving the performance of guns to match.

-DE releases the impact procs create slash procs instead mod...which given the stupidly favored damage of slash procs functionally screams "We don't know how to balance this against slash, but know we can't nerf slash.  Just make this mod an Impact only Hunter's Munitions, and call it a day." bandage fixing.-

Leaked developer build information implies that the newest attempt might see a 200-300% gun damage increase....if no melee is equipped.  Oh joy.  A static buff which doesn't scale....so functionally it is capped and potentially won't scale like the faction buff mods.

The latest commentary from the developer is not even trying to soften the melee nerf.  They're telegraphing this as the slow boiled frog....because if they were honest two months ago there would have been outrage.  Today though, there's nothing.  The people that are angry are those that saw this with DE for the last five years, and not the newer players whose attention spans have been exceeded.  With DE you have to go on a stream, and type "When Ghoul Saw DE" to get a response from a promise that was made when the first ghouls were announced.  

Wrapping all of this up, as a veteran of the game if they're afraid DE is going to screw this up.  I'll put my money on yes.  Before you do though, let's define a veteran.  Play at least once a week, for no less than two hours.  Play for at least two years...though three would be preferred.  Play during at least one update launch...before the inevitable three plus hot fixes required to return stability.  I don't have a high bar for being a veteran...because all of the people I used to play with started to meet that bar...and promptly quit.  Their commentary was that this was a farming simulator, built on bad RNG, and a buggy nightmare.  They also commented that DE didn't fix, they added more.  They changed, but never planned for change.  These things sound prophetic?

 

 

 

Now regarding the commentary about being too fast, and the few edge cases....I don't think that DE is capable of a fair argument here.  Allow me to explain, with their own handiwork.  Does anyone remember in melee 2.0 why the Atterax was such a beast?  Yeah, it had crit, but it could nuke whole rooms through walls.  It had a substantial length as a whip, and the range mods were all percentage based.  That 1 meter range sword could be 2.2 meters (as an example), but the 3 meter Atterax was suddenly 6.6 meters.  Holy crap, no wonder the polearms and whips were so heavily favored.

How did DE eventually fix things?  Well, they changed the mod to be a set additional range.  That's skipping out on some steps though.  First they made the whip not go through any solids....meaning that you couldn't nuke enemies through walls.  Good, right?  Well, no.  Between all of the random geometry in levels, and enemies themselves being solid, you now couldn't use long range weapons.  Fine, after more complaints they allowed semi-solids and enemies not to prevent hit detection.  OK....not terrible.  Remember though, this is still with a % increase range.  Combine this with assured criticals (maiming strike), and melee still far outstripped guns....and this has been in-game for literally years.  Look back, and you can see people recommending Adaro runs for focus farming years ago.  So....did DE even fix this with melee 3.0, despite the changes?

 

My point here is not to criticize you, but to ask whether DE even understands their own issue.  I would hazard to say that someone has shown them some pretty nutty edge cases...and instead of putting them into perspective they've decided to salt the earth like they usually do.  Case in point, the sentiment for the Zephyr Prime setup was a solid meh for Zephyr, some edge love for the Tiberon, and some ok appreciation for the Kronen.  The melee update dropped and tonfas now had a substantive range, excellent speed, and decent damage.  The Kronen Prime then shot up the riven scale....and ate a bunch of disposition changes.  Today the Kronen Prime is by far the best of the Zephyr pack....and it's because you get fast attacks in a wide area.  This is prime, excusing the pun, opportunity to review only that weapon group, and maybe scale the damage to the speed better.  The problem is not that attacks are too fast, but that the Kronen Prime utterly breaks the power curve.

So....maybe instead of an edge case they can show on stream, DE should use some of that data and crunch out the outlying weapons.  Maybe then, the problem will be clearer.  Of course that's not what is being communicated to us.  We just have vague, and increasingly threatening, promises that the one great system will eat nerfs.

 

 

 

As a final compendium, let me offer just a few ways that I've heard to address the melee scaling issue.  These are not complete or balanced, but could be combined to not nerf melee, increase player power, and feel like DE actually gives a crap.

  1. Shields popped by guns function off of a damage threshold.  If exceeded the target will be stun locked for a short duration.  This allows enemies to have shield gating, but not penalize players for taking high damage low fire rate weapons.  Right now using something like the Opticor is penalized by shielded enemies, because 200k damage means nothing if you always need at least two shots to kill a level 5 mook.
  2. Guns get their own combo counter style damage increaser.  Think like melee, or like sniper rifles.  
  3. Guns level up like warframes.  Instead of just mod capacity they increase to full damage (at 400% of current value).  All base damage increase mods are removed from the game.  This effectively increases their power, but also removes a required mod slot.  This opens a slot for something else...like how right now melee doesn't require point strike if you build to take advantage of the combo multiplier.
  4. Impact, Slash, and Puncture are reworked.  Slash maintains damage, but said damage has a longer duration with lower value ticks.  Same loss, but much slower.  Impact stuns a target rigid, instead of ragdolling them.  On top of this it opens the enemy to finishers.  Puncture procs create Banshee like weak points on the target.  If one of these weak points is hit it does some multiplier of the base damage, ignoring all armor and causing the target to flee in terror.  Slash is less weighted, because the game prefers dead over bleeding.  Impact is more weighted for weapons that kill from afar or at point blank...because the headshot bonuses are pretty sweet, unless you can get a finisher.  Puncture is a fantastic crowd control, for high volume of fire weapons.  All of these benefit guns because right now the only play is hunter's munitions for bleed or status spreaders.  The former is simply outclassed as levels rise and the later is a means to maximize melee.  With these altered procs at least distance combat can be useful for something.
  5. etc....  (everyone who plays has an opinion, but permutations of the above seem most common)

 

Instead, what we're likely to see is bandage mods.  We'll have one or two that are genuinely interesting, a couple with niche cases, and the remainder that most players cannot see a usage for in regular play...but somebody will find a single niche usage for to create a million damage....and will then promptly be forgotten about because setting up things in the simulacrum are entirely different from running them in-game.  The people cited have all seen this dozens of times before, and DE has never fundamentally understood their failures enough to change, so as the saying goes 'Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it."  The only question is how long we'll stick around for the ride.  I can't say I'm seeing a reason to care if they continue this crap.

To be clear, the crap I refer to (in this instance) is raids.  More years gone than present.  Always "a possibility."  Always hinted at.  You then look at the buggy state of the game, and read that DE found it too exhausting to maintain them.  Then you remember that a prime access can break basic mechanics....and I just hope that they stop baiting people to believe that they'll be back...or if they ever come back, they will have the dedicated community they once had.  Those people who led the raid school bus aren't here anymore.  Why in hades would they be?  The raids thing is a diversion, but it hints at an underlying truth.  I could have cited dozens of issues....but chose a whole new can of worms.  How many worm cans have to exist, before there's no hope of things not being implement-fight-change slightly-outdate the outrage-bleed players-draw new ones-blame veterans for being too salty-promise the people that remain the moon-repeat?

No offense taken what so ever. And I completely agree with most things you are talking about.

I don’t need to look any of that up as I’m very much on top of it. Although I’m pretty sure your reply wasn’t really aimed at me as much as it was aimed at DE. ;)

Buuuut we have to try something and not give up on them. And me totally berating them will certainly not work. If we give up, then we might as well just stop playing. And  I’m not quite ready to do that (again 🙄). Lol

And in regards to criticism of changes, implementations, DE misreading their audience, not really understanding what we actually enjoy about the game, how we play and why etc. etc. Then I will argue that certain creators ARE right 90 % of the time.

DE are people like us. I understand they take things personally sometimes (alot of times). Especially when criticism is aimed at something they made. E.g. Just look at how happy they were with Yarelis idle animations. They absolutely loved it. The chat on stream was also mostly over the moon. And I haven’t seen anyone in the community sharing those feelings (some do ofc). They seem to sometimes get bogged down in the positive feedback loop which is their streams and the chat. Feeling good about everything they present, and thinking that the feedback they get on streams is anything to go by in general. It’s not.

With a disconnect like that feelings are bound to get hurt, and they are bound to think everyone else are just out to get them. But they have to get over stuff like that. That’s their job. At the end of the day we are ALL working to make this game as good as it can be for as many people as possible. There isn’t really room for personal subjective feelings. And they simply HAVE to listen to their community, even when it hurts.

I hope they read my post, and if it did ANYTHING at all, that’s something. Not really much more we can do.

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8 hours ago, XXOUTT said:

No offense taken what so ever. And I completely agree with most things you are talking about.

I don’t need to look any of that up as I’m very much on top of it. Although I’m pretty sure your reply wasn’t really aimed at me as much as it was aimed at DE. ;)

Buuuut we have to try something and not give up on them. And me totally berating them will certainly not work. If we give up, then we might as well just stop playing. And  I’m not quite ready to do that (again 🙄). Lol

And in regards to criticism of changes, implementations, DE misreading their audience, not really understanding what we actually enjoy about the game, how we play and why etc. etc. Then I will argue that certain creators ARE right 90 % of the time.

DE are people like us. I understand they take things personally sometimes (alot of times). Especially when criticism is aimed at something they made. E.g. Just look at how happy they were with Yarelis idle animations. They absolutely loved it. The chat on stream was also mostly over the moon. And I haven’t seen anyone in the community sharing those feelings (some do ofc). They seem to sometimes get bogged down in the positive feedback loop which is their streams and the chat. Feeling good about everything they present, and thinking that the feedback they get on streams is anything to go by in general. It’s not.

With a disconnect like that feelings are bound to get hurt, and they are bound to think everyone else are just out to get them. But they have to get over stuff like that. That’s their job. At the end of the day we are ALL working to make this game as good as it can be for as many people as possible. There isn’t really room for personal subjective feelings. And they simply HAVE to listen to their community, even when it hurts.

I hope they read my post, and if it did ANYTHING at all, that’s something. Not really much more we can do.

 

Point one, much obliged.  As you've already stated, the history was not for you...but I could not assume a basic understanding given that I have no idea who exactly you are.  I've found many failures in assuming that others are aware of things...and that is a frustration which I can alleviate.

 

Point two, I don't believe that communication with DE is truly a two way street.  I believe that it has never been.  That said....passion rarely means results.  I caution this because your story sounds so familiar.  Not to be blunt, but let me suggest mine for parallels.  Game is new...and good.  Very rough, but free to play.  Friends download, you play until you've got a few MR...then the grind sets in.  The bugs never seem to get fixed, or new bugs become prevalent.  You scream into the void...until the last fiber in you snaps and you leave the game.  You come back a couple of years later, and have low expectations.  All of that content is good...until you burn through the 90% that is filler and discover the 10% miserable grind.  You find yourself trying to communicate with DE again...and discover fawning praise is all they respond to.  Instead of burning out you try to change things again by offering the same feedback consistently.  You discover that it doesn't matter, because the immediate fixes patch loot caves...while broken features are "someday" fixes.  You then satisfy yourself by trying to fight the entropy, hoping that the next fix will be the one to acknowledge the issues.  Yes, that's a Quantum Leap joke.  SyFi used to be SciFi and play Battlestar/Quantum Leap/80's cheese.  I'm old.  

 

Point three...detachment.  Professional detachment.  I work in quality.  The joke is that the two people you wish are sick on any given day are in HR and Quality.  Quality is supposed to have pride in their work, and their product.  They also have to be able to call a turd a turd, and refuse to allow a polished turd out the door.  When people at DE say their Quality Control and Assurance is fine, they either don't know what those words mean, or don't have the ability to improve because they can't objectively see their own work.  Either of these things is a sin...but the real issue is that somebody at DE needs to LEAD.  Leaders need to set goals, make deliverables, and keep people accountable.  I like the dev stream enthusiasm, but DE's releases share the same inability to release a good product.  That's....depressing.  It will also lead to their death, as a lack of vision beyond "rule of cool" is what killed Law Breakers and countless other games.  You want another Cliffy B moment?  I don't.

 

Please be warry about asking for anything.  When people asked for "any kind of evergreen content" we got Echoes of Umbra.  When we asked for any sort of controls on the riven market we got a nerf from low earth orbit to virtually everything.  When we asked for universal vacuum...oh boy.  Borrowing a movie line, sometimes dead is better.  If the leaked "fixes" for guns are accurate, then maybe useless is better.  Likewise, the reasonable plea for not nuking melee from orbit is likely to be....interpreted interestingly.

 

 

 

Side note, good chat.  Thank you for a conversation that feels...meaningful.  It's been some time.

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15 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Point one, much obliged.  As you've already stated, the history was not for you...but I could not assume a basic understanding given that I have no idea who exactly you are.  I've found many failures in assuming that others are aware of things...and that is a frustration which I can alleviate.

 

Point two, I don't believe that communication with DE is truly a two way street.  I believe that it has never been.  That said....passion rarely means results.  I caution this because your story sounds so familiar.  Not to be blunt, but let me suggest mine for parallels.  Game is new...and good.  Very rough, but free to play.  Friends download, you play until you've got a few MR...then the grind sets in.  The bugs never seem to get fixed, or new bugs become prevalent.  You scream into the void...until the last fiber in you snaps and you leave the game.  You come back a couple of years later, and have low expectations.  All of that content is good...until you burn through the 90% that is filler and discover the 10% miserable grind.  You find yourself trying to communicate with DE again...and discover fawning praise is all they respond to.  Instead of burning out you try to change things again by offering the same feedback consistently.  You discover that it doesn't matter, because the immediate fixes patch loot caves...while broken features are "someday" fixes.  You then satisfy yourself by trying to fight the entropy, hoping that the next fix will be the one to acknowledge the issues.  Yes, that's a Quantum Leap joke.  SyFi used to be SciFi and play Battlestar/Quantum Leap/80's cheese.  I'm old.  

 

Point three...detachment.  Professional detachment.  I work in quality.  The joke is that the two people you wish are sick on any given day are in HR and Quality.  Quality is supposed to have pride in their work, and their product.  They also have to be able to call a turd a turd, and refuse to allow a polished turd out the door.  When people at DE say their Quality Control and Assurance is fine, they either don't know what those words mean, or don't have the ability to improve because they can't objectively see their own work.  Either of these things is a sin...but the real issue is that somebody at DE needs to LEAD.  Leaders need to set goals, make deliverables, and keep people accountable.  I like the dev stream enthusiasm, but DE's releases share the same inability to release a good product.  That's....depressing.  It will also lead to their death, as a lack of vision beyond "rule of cool" is what killed Law Breakers and countless other games.  You want another Cliffy B moment?  I don't.

 

Please be warry about asking for anything.  When people asked for "any kind of evergreen content" we got Echoes of Umbra.  When we asked for any sort of controls on the riven market we got a nerf from low earth orbit to virtually everything.  When we asked for universal vacuum...oh boy.  Borrowing a movie line, sometimes dead is better.  If the leaked "fixes" for guns are accurate, then maybe useless is better.  Likewise, the reasonable plea for not nuking melee from orbit is likely to be....interpreted interestingly.

 

 

 

Side note, good chat.  Thank you for a conversation that feels...meaningful.  It's been some time.

Haha. Points well taken. And no, you are right in not assuming. But that goes for assuming me NOT knowing as well. ;)

I have been hugely critical of DE for a long time. But I am also very fast in admitting when they get something right. But ofc not with the same perseverance as when they are wrong. Even the most subjective thing becomes objective if enough people agree. They just never REALLY know as they haven’t set up anything to reliably receive feedback. Which is crazy. Feedback is EVERYTHING for any company.

But like what I was on about with my analogy with the plane landing, it’s quite normal not to be showering people with praise for doing what they are supposed to be doing.

DE created the (sometimes) exaggerated negative feedback they receive. People start yelling when they feel their words fall for deaf ears anyway. When they stop yelling, they stop playing.

The disconnect is sometimes mind boggling. Sometimes when I hear them talk about stuff on stream I just go: “U wot. U wot. U wot.” 😳

E.g. when Steve very recently, with a very serious and kinda happy with himself look on his face, said and I’m paraphrasing here: “… that’s why we introduced the changes to RJ with the Corpus RJ. Brought those mission types (nodes) into RJ … we bridged the game as people wanted …”

I was almost in shock. In disbelief. Wasn’t sure if he really meant it, or it was a bit of corporate waffle. Because, you know, not only is that NOT what anybody asked for it’s also completely wrong. Jamming Starchart nodes into a system is NOT bridging the game or bringing the islands together in any meaningful way. What they did there was just relegating the actual RJ to being a secondary mechanic. Doing less RJ IN RJ no less. A taxi between starchart nodes.

And then taking it a step further FORCING the whole squad OUT OF RJ to do a Starchart node. That was a crazy move. Instead of splitting up the squad all still working to solve a common goal. Which also opens an actual point in min/maxing the squad itself.

Bridging means getting the systems to naturally overlap. And overlap does not mean stopping one thing completely to do another thing. I might as well just stop playing RJ, go do Hydron and then go back into doing RJ.

Bridging would have been actually implementing RJ the way they introduced it at TennoCon (kinda some of it). The way Liches were supposed to work, the uplink etc. etc. etc. And bringing only the “final stand” with Liches into RJ isn’t bridging either. Whereas having the possibility to farm murmurs in RJ as well as the Starchart absolutely WOULD be bridging.

It’s no wonder some people have their heads explode when they say stuff like that with that amount of misplaced confidence.

Let’s talk admissions briefly. As far as I’m aware they don’t really do them at all. And I don’t know if that is a Canadian culture thing, but I do know it does not work on the global stage. It actively works against them when they gloss over things. They say they are doing stuff, make promises etc. and then just seemingly abandoning it without a single word.

The last time I saw any kind of admission was when Megan said this on a home stream in regards to them not releasing Primary Kitguns when they promised they would; “Oh. Primary Kitguns didn’t come out yet. That’s our bad.” - and she said it by chance you know.

I was really annoyed they didn’t come out when they said they would and it was never talked about at the time. But I instantly calmed down a bit when she said that. Even tho it was just random. That’s literally all it takes sometimes. And when they don’t do stuff like that people feel disrespected. It’s kinda human relations 101. Admit when you’re wrong. Definitely do not make it seem like you’re still right but enough people are wrong so you have to change it or roll back a knee jerk reaction/change you had/made. Say you didn’t think it through, say you misunderstood, say something. That doesn’t mean people will think less of you. They will feel more connected and heard. Like they are part of it like before. And then they wouldn’t have to tell you those things all the time. Get in front of it as you would in politics.

In regards to the “LEAKS”, they probably WERE real. Which is one of the reasons they just pushed back the Dev workshop surely. Lol. Now that’s a disconnect if I ever saw one. Jesus 😅

 

Lastly, right back at you mate. Been a pleasure. Fun to have an actual convo. Also wherein we are latently talking to a third silent party. Lol

GG! 🙌🏾

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52 minutes ago, XXOUTT said:

Haha. Points well taken. And no, you are right in not assuming. But that goes for assuming me NOT knowing as well. ;)

I have been hugely critical of DE for a long time. But I am also very fast in admitting when they get something right. But ofc not with the same perseverance as when they are wrong. Even the most subjective thing becomes objective if enough people agree. They just never REALLY know as they haven’t set up anything to reliably receive feedback. Which is crazy. Feedback is EVERYTHING for any company.

But like what I was on about with my analogy with the plane landing, it’s quite normal not to be showering people with praise for doing what they are supposed to be doing.

DE created the (sometimes) exaggerated negative feedback they receive. People start yelling when they feel their words fall for deaf ears anyway. When they stop yelling, they stop playing.

The disconnect is sometimes mind boggling. Sometimes when I hear them talk about stuff on stream I just go: “U wot. U wot. U wot.” 😳

E.g. when Steve very recently, with a very serious and kinda happy with himself look on his face, said and I’m paraphrasing here: “… that’s why we introduced the changes to RJ with the Corpus RJ. Brought those mission types (nodes) into RJ … we bridged the game as people wanted …”

I was almost in shock. In disbelief. Wasn’t sure if he really meant it, or it was a bit of corporate waffle. Because, you know, not only is that NOT what anybody asked for it’s also completely wrong. Jamming Starchart nodes into a system is NOT bridging the game or bringing the islands together in any meaningful way. What they did there was just relegating the actual RJ to being a secondary mechanic. Doing less RJ IN RJ no less. A taxi between starchart nodes.

And then taking it a step further FORCING the whole squad OUT OF RJ to do a Starchart node. That was a crazy move. Instead of splitting up the squad all still working to solve a common goal. Which also opens an actual point in min/maxing the squad itself.

Bridging means getting the systems to naturally overlap. And overlap does not mean stopping one thing completely to do another thing. I might as well just stop playing RJ, go do Hydron and then go back into doing RJ.

Bridging would have been actually implementing RJ the way they introduced it at TennoCon (kinda some of it). The way Liches were supposed to work, the uplink etc. etc. etc. And bringing only the “final stand” with Liches into RJ isn’t bridging either. Whereas having the possibility to farm murmurs in RJ as well as the Starchart absolutely WOULD be bridging.

It’s no wonder some people have their heads explode when they say stuff like that with that amount of misplaced confidence.

Let’s talk admissions briefly. As far as I’m aware they don’t really do them at all. And I don’t know if that is a Canadian culture thing, but I do know it does not work on the global stage. It actively works against them when they gloss over things. They say they are doing stuff, make promises etc. and then just seemingly abandoning it without a single word.

The last time I saw any kind of admission was when Megan said this on a home stream in regards to them not releasing Primary Kitguns when they promised they would; “Oh. Primary Kitguns didn’t come out yet. That’s our bad.” - and she said it by chance you know.

I was really annoyed they didn’t come out when they said they would and it was never talked about at the time. But I instantly calmed down a bit when she said that. Even tho it was just random. That’s literally all it takes sometimes. And when they don’t do stuff like that people feel disrespected. It’s kinda human relations 101. Admit when you’re wrong. Definitely do not make it seem like you’re still right but enough people are wrong so you have to change it or roll back a knee jerk reaction/change you had/made. Say you didn’t think it through, say you misunderstood, say something. That doesn’t mean people will think less of you. They will feel more connected and heard. Like they are part of it like before. And then they wouldn’t have to tell you those things all the time. Get in front of it as you would in politics.

In regards to the “LEAKS”, they probably WERE real. Which is one of the reasons they just pushed back the Dev workshop surely. Lol. Now that’s a disconnect if I ever saw one. Jesus 😅

 

Lastly, right back at you mate. Been a pleasure. Fun to have an actual convo. Also wherein we are latently talking to a third silent party. Lol

GG! 🙌🏾

So, point of explanation about the Canadian thing, beyond the standard "not all" disclaimer.  Most of the people I've met from Canada believe that discourse is almost without direct criticism of an opposing opinion.  That is to say that two people lay out their beliefs, and this is the end of the discussion.  If you are to directly cite issues with a person's opinion you are attacking them...which in the US is basically considered standard discourse.  It's not everyone, but I used the commentary because DE as a company seems to be very much a product of their surroundings.  Whether this is perception or reality is...up for vigorous debate.

 

Regarding the lack of promises...squad link.  Orb Mothers.  Pickup by railjack on the surface of open worlds.  All of these things were not discussed, but demonstrated.  Now...the game implementation for all of them has been shaky...and whether they exist or not, some have only seen one attempt.  Bless you Scarlet Spear.  I don't ever believe what DE promises anymore.  I fully believe that the Sisters will somehow accidentally include a male model on some of the RNG bits....because that just seems appropriate.

 

Regarding the lack of delivery...  There's a wiki page for promises not delivered.  Still waiting on the saw, but I'd really like the even older promise of dual wield nikanas to get a date.

 

Regarding the responses on stream.  I believe my favorite was the absolute misery it seemed to be when they announced that the Liches would no longer insta-kill you for failing a potential 1 in 8*7*6 or 1:336 guess at arranging 3 mods in an appropriate order.  Because everybody told them that the idiotic RNG was miserable of day one, but it was more than a month before they "graced" us by decreasing that potential to, at best, a 1:6 chance of guessing the proper order assuming we are willing to grind for hours to simply learn which three mods are required...without any indication of order.  I believe that this was not the hill to die on, and I'm already lining up to watch the supposed railjack integration of Liches with railjack....only about two years late.

 

Finally, let's discuss responses.  Steve never admits a bad decision, because to some extent he's the auteur leading the project with a vision.  If he admitted error it'd no longer be his vision...so I guess that things are as they are.  Scott is always joked about as the one delivering nerfs.  This is a tactic to address outrage before it can happen by making it a joke.  Etcetera.  What you usually get is Rebecca and the community management team cleaning things up...and boy do I think they earn their paycheck.  Rebecca is regularly open about community perceived failures...and even seems to be a member of the internal group addressing things like the melee nerf and gun buff proactively.  Instead of commenting on the leak, they announce a delayed developer workshop...going over it and helminth system changes.

While a part of me seriously is asking WTF, the other part of me is willing to listen.  Maybe it'll be good.  Maybe.  That'd tacitly not be admitting to what the community has already deemed a failure of a response, but realistically packaging it with something else to deny it the ability to fester.  Say what you will, but Rebecca and team really do earn their keep given all the crap that seems to constantly be drawing almost universal community ire.

This is all in service to a simple point.  Indies with no money need to listen.  Indies with money sell out (anything Zenimax), or become auteurs (Phil Fish).  DE definitely pretends to be an auteur....but instead of listening they pay people in PR to fix their insanity as needed.  In this way the parties responsible are never held to account.  They never have to say sorry, because they have paid people to do that.  They, to an extent, have sold out.  You can't reasonably say otherwise given the pricing scheme on some of those skins.  If you get to play both sides of the argument, get the benefits of whatever you claim this week, and never truly have to truly reconcile this insanity, then why should you?  If I were in this position I'd make someone else have to take responsibility for my errors.  Oh...I'm that someone professionally.  I made myself sad.

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