The new lich's damage reduction is insane

[Krankbert]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom:

Application of high DPS falls flat on its face, so the cheese gets taken out.

Planning out how to best deal with an encounter and bringing the appropriate equipment - in other games it's called "tactics" or "preparation", here it's "the cheese". Because god forbid there is something in the game that you can't just brainlessly button-mash your way through.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

26 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

Let me get this straight: I like challenge and I'm not bad at games by any stretch. I did not have trouble with ANY kuva lich, or my first sister, arguably a harder element to deal with(radiation). 

There is definitely issues with the sisters damage dealing and damage reduction.

I had two missions for the same sister that WERE impossible. 20 hounds dealing CC and one shot killing me, stealing my weapons, several sisters one shot killing me, several spectres spawning AT MY FEET AND ONE SHOT KILLING ME. It was the most artificially difficult thing i've ever done in any game. 

 

Whats the point in any of this gear if its just turned off in the fight?

Sounds like you found a challenge!  You have squadmates, companions, spectres, powers galore...   And still, a challenge!  That's not a bad thing :/  Tough, yes. Tedious, yes.  Not objectively bad in a game where everything else dies with *mashes melee*  (and I LOVE melee, mind you)

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I've gone through 7 sisters, and none of the rank 5 final fights were fun. They boiled down to "how am I gonna circumvent the DR." Application of high DPS falls flat on its face, so the cheese gets taken out.
Cover them in so many Sonar spots they look like a miniature sun, or perma CC with Xaku so I can wail on them.

Challenging no, tedious yes.

So you had a challenge, and you found a tool for the job.   What's the issue?  How would any changes change THAT outcome?  ANY incarnation of this system would result in SOME sort of "meta solution", as any problem always has an optimum solution... and THAT would be the new *fill in the blank* to "cheese" the challenge.  So, again, what's wrong with this solution?

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Planning out how to best deal with an encounter and bringing the appropriate equipment - in other games it's called "tactics" or "preparation", here it's "the cheese". Because god forbid there is something in the game that you can't just brainlessly button-mash your way through.

THIS. ALL THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Planning out how to best deal with an encounter and bringing the appropriate equipment - in other games it's called "tactics" or "preparation", here it's "the cheese". Because god forbid there is something in the game that you can't just brainlessly button-mash your way through.

I am bringing appropriate equipment. Enemy has health, so I apply gratuitous amount of DPS, get told "lol no." So I cheese it with things that clearly aren't meant to bypass it (Sonar) or make Sisters a literal sandbag and unable to to anything (Xaku).

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Having had a few more, I've found that although I've appreciated that trying to avoid their attacks can be interesting, I could do without the sponginess.

 

Of course, reduce the DR and they're liable to turn into sisters of tissue paper. I'm hardly the first to say 'maybe DE should do a stat squish', and hopefully DE will listen sooner rather than later.

Whilst I hear you, and I understand...  The issue DE has before them is that any time they add difficulty, tedium or otherwise, players complain that it's "too much".   But if they make it simpler, then "it's too easy/brain dead". 

They're trying to create mini-bosses that FEEL like mini-BOSSES, and have rewards to match!   So, while tedious processes can be tweaked, I'm really not sure what else DE could introduce in a similar vein that wouldn't just either topple over at our breath, or steamroll us in response.

I mean, what's the WORST that happens?  We can die sooooo much with NO consequence.  We have 4-6 REVIVES, + team revives + a HUGE toolbox between companions, spectres, gravimag, base arsenal, etc...  and if we fail mission we LOSE NOTHING.  

So, here we have a little consequence added (time investment, at worst), and players want that shut off, too.   (not saying YOU do, to clarify).

[NecroPed]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Sounds like you found a challenge!  You have squadmates, companions, spectres, powers galore...   And still, a challenge!  That's not a bad thing :/  Tough, yes. Tedious, yes.  Not objectively bad in a game where everything else dies with *mashes melee*  (and I LOVE melee, mind you)

And all of that gear was made redundant. The sisters CAN be way over the top, my first was no problem. But, my second was almost impossible, two out of 3 lvl 5 missions were straight up impossible. What I experienced with my second sister was definitely objectively bad.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

So you had a challenge, and you found a tool for the job.   What's the issue?  How would any changes change THAT outcome?  ANY incarnation of this system would result in SOME sort of "meta solution", as any problem always has an optimum solution... and THAT would be the new *fill in the blank* to "cheese" the challenge.  So, again, what's wrong with this solution?

Because there's a difference between meta solutions being better but "normal" ones still being bearable. Right now its take cheese tactics (Sonar not being mitigated by their DR being notable) or have fun pounding the sandbag

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I am bringing appropriate equipment. Enemy has health, so I apply gratuitous amount of DPS, get told "lol no." So I cheese it with things that clearly aren't meant to bypass it (Sonar) or make Sisters a literal sandbag and unable to to anything (Xaku).

If Banshee and Xaku are acting as programmed to act, I don't see how that's "cheese".  That's just you using the powers/weapons you've got.

And "has health, do damage" is grossly oversimplifying how damage works in Warframe.  That might be part of your issue.   MOST of warframe, to be fair, does not demand that you actually pay attention to HOW you do damage....because most is pretty squishy.. .which is FINE. I enjoy it.  

But these are effectively BOSSES.  They're not meant to just "do damage = win".  Pay attention to their resistances, their weaknesses..     If Sonar works, great! :) 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

And all of that gear was made redundant. The sisters CAN be way over the top, my first was no problem. But, my second was almost impossible, two out of 3 lvl 5 missions were straight up impossible. What I experienced with my second sister was definitely objectively bad.

So, you experienced a MAX LEVEL BOSS, who could actually stand up to you, toe-to-toe and then some..

and your reaction is to tell the Devs to take it out or nerf it?

[Krankbert]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom:

I am bringing appropriate equipment. Enemy has health, so I apply gratuitous amount of DPS, get told "lol no." So I cheese it with things that clearly aren't meant to bypass it (Sonar) or make Sisters a literal sandbag and unable to to anything (Xaku).

This game has the most incompetent community I have ever seen - the devs implement one somewhat challenging enemy, and all the terribad players cry for nerfs and whine that the encounter has to be made easier. Any tactics that do work and make the encounter easy must be "cheese" and "not meant to work" because admitting to everything else would mean that the encounter is fine as it is, which means it won't get nerfed, which means that they'd have to deal with the fact that it's not the game that is too hard, it's them that is bad at it.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

If Banshee and Xaku are acting as programmed to act, I don't see how that's "cheese".  That's just you using the powers/weapons you've got.

And "has health, do damage" is grossly oversimplifying how damage works in Warframe.  That might be part of your issue.   MOST of warframe, to be fair, does not demand that you actually pay attention to HOW you do damage....because most is pretty squishy.. .which is FINE. I enjoy it.  

But these are effectively BOSSES.  They're not meant to just "do damage = win".  Pay attention to their resistances, their weaknesses..     If Sonar works, great! :) 

Xaku is cheese because it bypasses a clear boss mechanic (reduced duration on CC abilities).
Sonar is cheese because it doesn't behave like other damage amps (such as Blazing Chakrahm) or even self-buffs against Sisters

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because there's a difference between meta solutions being better but "normal" ones still being bearable. Right now its take cheese tactics (Sonar not being mitigated by their DR being notable) or have fun pounding the sandbag

Sonar has ALWAYS been amazing, lol.  I have a Sonar build on my Banshee that's super squishy but MAN does it let me shred through everything, lol.   If it works, and it's not an exploit, then all the power to it!  Glad Banshee gets to shine again ^_^ 

And that isn't to say that DE won't/can't/shouldn't tweak them a bit... but again, we're not talking a low-level boss.  We're talking, effectively, a MAX RANK LICH.  Those have ALWAYS been tough.... these just have more advanced mechanics than the Grineer....which makes sense, given the nature of the Corpus.

[NecroPed]

1 minute ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

So, you experienced a MAX LEVEL BOSS, who could actually stand up to you, toe-to-toe and then some..

and your reaction is to tell the Devs to take it out or nerf it?

I just want to make a note that I am all for challenge. I want more challenging content in warframe. But, not content that out of nowhere becomes basically impossible. This isn't me just wanting it to be easy. I thoroughly enjoyed my first sister.

Impossible IS NOT FUN or challenging. 

 

It wasn't toe to toe, it was a maxed out warframe with damage and armour buffs being unable to take or deal any damage. Made worse by 20 hounds ccing me, stealing my weapons, spectres spawning at my feet ONE SHOT KILLING ME. I repeated the mission 3 times to complete it, which isn't much but it was IMPOSSIBLE in two of those missions.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

Just now, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Xaku is cheese because it bypasses a clear boss mechanic (reduced duration on CC abilities).
Sonar is cheese because it doesn't behave like other damage amps (such as Blazing Chakrahm) or even self-buffs against Sisters

That's not "cheese", my friend.  That's a niche being filled.

that's like saying "I do surgery with a hammer, because using a scalpel is cheesing it, being that a scalpel makes it too easy by being appropriately sharp, small, and easy to use vs the other tools in my kit!"   

[Krankbert]

I get the impression that some people think that abilities like Sonar are only in the game because the devs don't want them to have to think about modding their Braton.

vor 4 Minuten schrieb NecroPed:

I just want to make a note that I am all for challenge. I want more challenging content in warframe. But, not content that out of nowhere becomes basically impossible. This isn't me just wanting it to be easy.

See, the problem is that it's not impossible. It just isn't. Saying that "you're all for challenge" are just empty words. It's a lie, maybe one you tell yourself, but a lie nonetheless. The truth is that you are currently faced with a challenge, and you aren't all for it - you declared it impossible and run crying to the devs so they make it go away.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

4 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

This game has the most incompetent community I have ever seen - the devs implement one somewhat challenging enemy, and all the terribad players cry for nerfs and whine that the encounter has to be made easier. Any tactics that do work and make the encounter easy must be "cheese" and "not meant to work" because admitting to everything else would mean that the encounter is fine as it is, which means it won't get nerfed, which means that they'd have to deal with the fact that it's not the game that is too hard, it's them that is bad at it.

The problem I see is that people try too often OR feel entitled to.. CHANGE Warframe into the game they WANT it to be, rather than accepting it for the game it is/the Devs have chosen to make it. 

So yeah, either they need to learn the game, or understand that this particular content simply isn't their cup of tea AND THAT'S OKAY.

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

This game has the most incompetent community I have ever seen - the devs implement one somewhat challenging enemy, and all the terribad players cry for nerfs and whine that the encounter has to be made easier. Any tactics that do work and make the encounter easy must be "cheese" and "not meant to work" because admitting to everything else would mean that the encounter is fine as it is, which means it won't get nerfed, which means that they'd have to deal with the fact that it's not the game that is too hard, it's them that is bad at it.

....I can see unintended mechanics for what they are, guess you can't.

2 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

If it works, and it's not an exploit, then all the power to it!  Glad Banshee gets to shine again ^_^ 

That's my point. What I've listed are unintended mechanics (exploits).

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I just want to make a note that I am all for challenge. I want more challenging content in warframe. But, not content that out of nowhere becomes basically impossible. This isn't me just wanting it to be easy. I thoroughly enjoyed my first sister.

Impossible IS NOT FUN or challenging. 

 

It wasn't toe to toe, it was a maxed out warframe with damage and armour buffs being unable to take or deal any damage. Made worse by 20 hounds ccing me, stealing my weapons, spectres spawning at my feet ONE SHOT KILLING ME. I repeated the mission 3 times to complete it, which isn't much but it was IMPOSSIBLE in two of those missions.

It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE.  "Impossible" means "cannot be done".  Clearly it CAN be done, or people wouldn't have gone through several Sisters already! 

So STOP saying "Impossible" and just say "A challenge you weren't ready for".

[NecroPed]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE.  "Impossible" means "cannot be done".  Clearly it CAN be done, or people wouldn't have gone through several Sisters already! 

So STOP saying "Impossible" and just say "A challenge you weren't ready for".

No, in those two missions it could not be done. It literally could not be done. There was no way to deal enough damage before having weapons stolen or being cc'd and bounced around for several minutes. It WAS IMPOSSIBLE. I only beat the sister when it didn't follow the same pattern of spawning spectres at my feet that one shot kill me dumping 20 hounds on me. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

....I can see unintended mechanics for what they are, guess you can't.

That's my point. What I've listed are unintended mechanics (exploits).

What about Banshee or Xaku's abilities are "exploits"?  How are they working outside of their intended use?

Is Xaku pausing ability duration?  That's intended. It's in the text in-game.

Is Banshee revealing weak points and allowing you to deal much more damage than normal?  Thaaaat's exactly the intended use of that ability. 

Where is the "exploit"?

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom:

....I can see unintended mechanics for what they are, guess you can't.

Okay. If your viewpoint is that the encounter is intended to be unbeatable, then welcome to the ignore list with the other crazies. I don't have time to deal with this kind of paranoid whiny nonsense.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

What about Banshee or Xaku's abilities are "exploits"?  How are they working outside of their intended use?

Is Xaku pausing ability duration?  That's intended. It's in the text in-game.

Is Banshee revealing weak points and allowing you to deal much more damage than normal?  Thaaaat's exactly the intended use of that ability. 

Where is the "exploit"?

Bosses have a clear mechanic of reduced CC duration no? Xaku gets to say "lol no, I get to ignore mechanics" because timer pause.
Banshee having a damage amp that bypasses DR when other Debuff/Self-buff abilities don't is not intended.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Okay. If your viewpoint is that the encounter is intended to be unbeatable, then welcome to the ignore list with the other crazies. I don't have time to deal with this kind of paranoid whiny nonsense.

Nice to see words being put in my mouth. I have never said or implied that they are unbeatable, just that they are tedious fights due to artificially high DR and that things that allow me to bypass/completely ignore this are what make them tolerable.

[LillyRaccune]

Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

So, you experienced a MAX LEVEL BOSS, who could actually stand up to you, toe-to-toe and then some..

and your reaction is to tell the Devs to take it out or nerf it?

Bullet Sponge =/= Good Challenge.

The Requiem combo was supposed to be the puzzle to the damage-resistant lich/sister. Now the requiems are just a time-gate mechanic to force us to participate in a railjack mission.

[NecroPed]

6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I get the impression that some people think that abilities like Sonar are only in the game because the devs don't want them to have to think about modding their Braton.

See, the problem is that it's not impossible. It just isn't. Saying that "you're all for challenge" are just empty words. It's a lie, maybe one you tell yourself, but a lie nonetheless. The truth is that you are currently faced with a challenge, and you aren't all for it - you declared it impossible and run crying to the devs so they make it go away.

False. It was impossible. If only I had video so you could see. Because in two out of three missions it was impossible. I loved the challenge of my first sister, the second out of nowhere became impossible until it didn't for some reason spawn spectres at my feet that ONE SHOT KILL ME WHILE TRYING TO AVOID CONSTANT CC FROM 20 ENEMIES THAT STEAL YOUR WEAPONS WHILE ALSO HAVING YOUR ABILITIES NEGATED. 

A mission that impossible until it randomly isn't is not a challenge. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Bosses have a clear mechanic of reduced CC duration no? Xaku gets to say "lol no, I get to ignore mechanics" because timer pause.
Banshee having a damage amp that bypasses DR when other Debuff/Self-buff abilities don't is not intended.

See my previous response.  Already addressed this exactly.