The new lich's damage reduction is insane

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Anaktoria:

I encourage you to re-read my post more carefully and to take deep breaths before responding or reacting. Thanks!

I'm sorry, maybe I misread something. Isn't "not being able to one-shot the Sisters" the one single thing you complained about?

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Anaktoria:

I think something important to note is that many of us, including you, I'm sure, are not simply unable to defeat the Sisters. We can, and it's not even hard. But it is not fun.

The new system for damage attenuation means that setups like yours or mine, that easily one- or two-shot Kuva Liches before the Sisters of Parvos update, now take hundreds of shots to kill a rank 5 Sister. I haven't yet acquired a Kuva Lich under the new system, but I presume it's similar. And it isn't that we're just using bad cheese or that we need to use certain niche builds, because many experienced players with similar setups are reporting exactly the same findings here, and no one has yet come out with something that even comes close to nuking these new nemeses.

 

[Anaktoria]

Just now, Krankbert said:

I'm sorry, maybe I misread something. Isn't "not being able to one-shot the Sisters" the thing you explicitly complained about?

It is not.

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Anaktoria:

It is not.

Well, then maybe you can quote the part where you complain about something else, because I'm not seeing it. All I'm seeing is three paragraphs about how long and tedious the fight is now that you can't one-shot the boss anymore.

[Anaktoria]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Well, then maybe you can quote the part where you complain about something else, because I'm not seeing it.

> [...] I welcome buffing them so they can't be one-shot by some or all of the things that used to be able to one-shot them. [...]

The best way for you to reconcile your current questions and complaints is to re-read what I wrote earlier, because I feel I laid out all my thoughts in the most clear and coherent manner there. 

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Anaktoria:

> [...] I welcome buffing them so they can't be one-shot by some or all of the things that used to be able to one-shot them. [...]

A sentence about how you welcome buffing them doesn't undo three paragraphs of whining about how much less fun the bosses are now that you can't one-shot them anymore. It's always the same thing - you all claim that you love a challenge, and whine and cry and call for nerfs the moment the game requires you to stop watching TV and use both hands to play.

[Loza03]

37 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Whilst I hear you, and I understand...  The issue DE has before them is that any time they add difficulty, tedium or otherwise, players complain that it's "too much".   But if they make it simpler, then "it's too easy/brain dead". 

They're trying to create mini-bosses that FEEL like mini-BOSSES, and have rewards to match!   So, while tedious processes can be tweaked, I'm really not sure what else DE could introduce in a similar vein that wouldn't just either topple over at our breath, or steamroll us in response.

I mean, what's the WORST that happens?  We can die sooooo much with NO consequence.  We have 4-6 REVIVES, + team revives + a HUGE toolbox between companions, spectres, gravimag, base arsenal, etc...  and if we fail mission we LOSE NOTHING.  

So, here we have a little consequence added (time investment, at worst), and players want that shut off, too.   (not saying YOU do, to clarify).

That's kind of why I advocate a stat-squish. That's more of an across-the-board sort of thing which helps avoid cases like as described where it's cheese or be cheesed. It makes the fine line a bit wider, as it were. Plus it'd help reduce the need for crazy adaptive damage reduction like this. Whilst I think it'd probably always have a place, it could be less, for lack of a better term, obvious.

There's a degree of smoke and mirrors. A big hit should always feel like a big hit, you know? Even when it actually isn't. But, likewise, the game should just roll over and give up when you have access to them.

[Uhkretor]

15 hours ago, Morteno said:

also have sentinels that 'eats 90s'

... My Helios eats Steel Path though... As does my Sunika and my Vasca...

 

... Are you going to say that I have a "PC Superduper Easy" Mode? Even though you're on PC as well?

[Anaktoria]

15 hours ago, Krankbert said:

A sentence about how you welcome buffing them doesn't undo three paragraphs of whining about how much less fun the bosses are now that you can't one-shot them anymore. It's always the same thing - you all claim that you love a challenge, and whine and cry and call for nerfs the moment the game requires you to stop watching TV and use both hands to play.

DISCLAIMER again because people are genuinely upset by not knowing this: all of the below is merely my personal opinion. It is not verified on Twitter, it has no certifications or approvals by any Bureau of Fact, and it definitely isn't written as age-old immutable wisdom on any stone steles bearing codes of law unearthed by archaeologists out there. Look, just - remember that this is an online video game discussion forum where all people ever do is share their own personal opinions, and don't panic, okay?

I'm very disappointed that you feel the need to accuse me or others here of "whining" and so forth. I hope you will be able to extend to me the same respect I am extending to you. If not, I hope you'll understand why I won't find it constructive or useful to engage with someone who can't be civil or genuine.

I feel I explained myself as clearly and fairly as possible. Perhaps I should repeat and rephrase: not being able to one-shot these nemeses under the current system is not at all a bother for me. As I said, I patently would like nemeses being tankier than before - just not by quite this much. Having to take two or three minutes to kill a max-rank Sister, even with our best gear, is what I am concerned about. If this were something like Steel Path Wolf of Saturn Six, I would not mind at all (and I speak from experience, having soloed that in the past - yes, of course I know the actual SP WoSS is far tankier still than current nemeses, but you get the gist). However, these are enemies that are intended to be farmed over and over (because of the multiple weapons, the valence system, the random weapon generation, and the innate element choice) and it feels unengaging that part of the process that is to be repeated over and over involves simply spamming attacks for minutes at a time while growing bored, just because our damage was arbitrarily severely nerfed. This makes the game unfun. A game should be fun.

If the several minutes were taken because I had to jump around hunting down my Sister while she sets traps for me, cleverly dodges me, etc., I'd be much happier (notably she already does this to some degree, and it does take a little longer as a result, and I do actually like it personally). That is genuine challenge (though not everyone likes that either, and that is reasonable for them not to like it).

I think you may want to stop and ask yourself why you think this thesis means I am calling for easier enemies. I have explained both here and in the original post how I very much welcome actual increased challenge, the kind that makes us think and have to try to solve things or be agile (e.g. Glassmaker). The current higher eHP system is not challenge but tedium (and not because the eHP is higher at all, but because it is higher by too much - I simply would like to see it lower than it is now, but still higher than before). I very much could more easily watch TV now while using a macro to whittle down their bars, in fact. The fight is not harder, but less interesting.

I feel like you think I am somehow trying to invalidate you here, and I assure you I am not. I appreciate questions and I am simply trying to answer them, so I hope that will reassure you. If not, then I apologize very much for somehow upsetting you and will stop interacting with you to make sure I don't upset you further. Thank you for your time!

P.S. A bit late but I just went back and saw your edit:

> Maybe you can elaborate more about how not one bit of the challenge of the Glassmaker fight arose from not being able to simply one-shot him. I'd really like to hear you explain that.

I explained this above, as well as in my original post. Challenge is introduced via mechanics like dodging, puzzles, tricks and traps, not by anything related to damage. Glassmaker did the former, and threw the latter entirely out the window, since we could not influence at all how much damage we dealt per hit to him (aside from determining if the hit landed at all or not).

 

[Numerounius]

The stropha is sitting at a 0.5 riven dispo, doing content like this should encourage people to seek out more ways of dealing damage not less where a riven might be suitable. A gunblade is slow firing but deals heavy damage making it ideal for content like this where it is supposed to be a back and forth fight not a horde or bullet sponge fight. When I fire off my stropha I should be able to see my damage go though in the midst of the chaotic fight not punching myself as to why I am dealing zero damage despite being within the pitiful damage falloff area. I had this same problem facing steel path treasurer (pre-patch in case you are wondering) and was really hoping the DR would be leaned off for a bit instead of being piled onto for more content after how the Drift enemies have more resistances beyond DR like other units. But sadly it is no surprise they continued to pile on it.

 

Luckily it seems like the damage reduction formula has some flaws that existed pre-patch that I was able to utilize. For now I am using Harrow and the increased crit multipliers with the vaykor hek to actually get some damage in or the Kuva brakk depending on the weaknesses of the lich. There are also other frames that have things that ignore this DR liches have. This makes zero sense and I don't want to see it fixed, I want it to be tuned so that I can actually try out other methods that aren't deal >1000 damage like a gunblade or a melee without having to worry about liches teleporting or picking me up every 5 seconds.

 

Luckily even with the DR it seems like the DR against liches isn't super overtuned to the point where using ammo pads are a requirement for the high ammo capacity guns. And group play is still possible and there isn't any issues there.

[Slayer-.]

 

1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

Im not going to keep arguing this because you clearly have no idea what I experienced. Sisters CAN be impossible. Doing 2 impossible missions before it provides a mission that is beatable is not a challenge. Im not saying they're all impossible, what I'm saying is that they can be impossible in a mission. 

When I say a mission was impossible it was that specific mission. Not every encounter. Not every sister. Particular combinations and experiences resulted in the mission being impossible. Can it be done? Yes. I've completed this particular sister. But, it was IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL THE SISTER IN TWO OUT OF THREE MISSIONS due to the circumstances provided. There is an issue here, I don't think its as simple as lower the damage reduction across all sisters, but there is definitely an issue with it. 

Did you check out that site I linked, to check out what's killing you.

[Charlotte]

1 hour ago, Anaktoria said:

I explained this above, as well as in my original post. Challenge is introduced via mechanics like dodging, puzzles, tricks and traps, not by anything related to damage. Glassmaker did the former, and threw the latter entirely out the window, since we could not influence at all how much damage we dealt per hit to him (aside from determining if the hit landed at all or not).

You're not the keeper of the truth. Challenge CAN be and IS also about damage. I've been playing RPGs throughout my whole life and dealing with these kind of challenges during all of it, so don't try to explain what is and isn't a challenge based solely on your opinion. Remove the tankiness and you may as well just one shot them with a gunblade.

[TeaHands]

I am unsure I fully understand how this all works. From what I saw it looks like your first hit does some damage, and then every subsequent hit does less and less damage. Right?

So a question from someone unable to play ATM, does the DR reset when a new source of damage is introduced? Or is the DR set for the entire fight no matter what? 

[sunderthefirmament]

2 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I am unsure I fully understand how this all works. From what I saw it looks like your first hit does some damage, and then every subsequent hit does less and less damage. Right?

So a question from someone unable to play ATM, does the DR reset when a new source of damage is introduced? Or is the DR set for the entire fight no matter what? 

It seems to gradually expire.  But I could be wrong.

[Azamagon]

This damage resistance is basicly the ultimate proof of why everything in Warframe needs a SERIOUS statsquish...

[(PSN)Wildman537]

20 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I am unsure I fully understand how this all works. From what I saw it looks like your first hit does some damage, and then every subsequent hit does less and less damage. Right?

So a question from someone unable to play ATM, does the DR reset when a new source of damage is introduced? Or is the DR set for the entire fight no matter what? 

It scales back down when not dealing damage, making burst DPS a necessity. I've found quite a few way to deal with the liches now, but the entire system just feels tedious and almost not worth it at this point. Fake difficulty through mass mob spawning and high effective hitpoints. These things can be done well, but when relied on as heavily as this system does without any accompanying systems to break up the monotony, it gets boring and uninteresting very quickly.

Ive stopped running sisters or liches in general now after killing 3-4 since you have to stand in one room for a couple of minutes shooting an oversized piñata that can randomly insta-GiB you over and over, on repeat, again and again, making me not care about the fight or new content at all.

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

This damage resistance is basicly the ultimate proof of why everything in Warframe needs a SERIOUS statsquish...

Out of curiosity, are you a player who, at any chance, equips the things to make mission failure an impossible outcome?

I’ve seen this sentiment around, and I’m not sure if many players would actually appreciate a stat squish if it slowed down their progress…?

[NecroPed]

1 hour ago, Slayer-. said:

 

Did you check out that site I linked, to check out what's killing you.

Unfortunately no, I had relaunched after doing the sister. 

[(PSN)Wildman537]

5 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

This damage resistance is basicly the ultimate proof of why everything in Warframe needs a SERIOUS statsquish...

A statsquish would work, true. But would be seen by the broader community as "omg! Another game breaking nerf!!! Hate on DE! Hate on DE!!!"

I personally think the best option would be to peel back some of this damage resistance and add a more engaging fight in general, as it sits the lich assassinate mission in the veil is simply too basic, you shoot a handful of ships, board the galleon/flag ship, and imidiatley fight the boss. This is their turf, the entire fight up to this point they have been coming to us, but now theres the chance to flip that precedence. We are coming to them, to their capital ship, on their grounds. They should set up ways to stall and stop us along the way, after all they are a commander. Even if its something as simple as a series of mobile defences to open doors along the way to the boss, it would be much better than how the current system works. 

[TeaHands]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Wildman537 said:

It scales back down when not dealing damage, making burst DPS a necessity. I've found quite a few way to deal with the liches now, but the entire system just feels tedious and almost not worth it at this point. Fake difficulty through mass mob spawning and high effective hitpoints. These things can be done well, but when relied on as heavily as this system does without any accompanying systems to break up the monotony, it gets boring and uninteresting very quickly.

Ive stopped running sisters or liches in general now after killing 3-4 since you have to stand in one room for a couple of minutes shooting a oversizes piñata that can randomly insta-GiB you over and over on repeat again and again, making me not care about the fight or new content at all.

 

22 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It seems to gradually expire.  But I could be wrong.

Ah ok, thank you!

It seems like it wouldn't be as bad if it weren't for the fact that shields regen, thus making the DR high by the time you get to their HP again.

Like it would be neat to have the DR encourage rebuilding stacks, timers, or energy by attacking other fodder enemies while it winds down. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I still need to do more personal testing, but based on conversation and what I have heard, certain traditionally hard hitting raw DPS slower weapons, are struggling to do as well as they usually have against Sisters because of their new adaption and damage reduction mechanics? Example, Stropha? Arquebex? I believe we can apply status to them, but its a small caped amount, fast hard hitting hit scan?!? weapons that hit multiple times, like certain shotguns, do well, as well as Warframe's that can bypass, minimise or strip defences also do well? 

In a sleepy haze I have beat two of the Sisters so far, and at rank 5 they (one) felt much much meatier feeling than Kuva Lichs at the same rank. It was both a pleasant surprise, more challenge, more mechanics to learn etc but a slight annoyance since I was sleepy and just wanted to go to bed. Also my load out seemed like it would have been the worst given the new mechanics. The other Sister was much easier, but my load out was different and I wasn't trying to revive my pet every 10 seconds like the other, I relied less on my Stropha and Peacemakers, and ignored all the red markers/specters and void dashed to keep up with the Sisters teleporting. 

If my understanding of the new mechanics and adaptations is somewhat accurate, I'll know what to use to make it easier/faster, but yeah, I understand and sympathise for those that have play styles, weapons that aren't going to be anywhere as effective, and or the think the new mechanics aren't the good type of 'difficulty'. Personally, I don't like "one shotting" things, but I did like building an arsenal where I used my guns on most regular enemies, and having a boss killer Stropha. That being said, I also like to make a bunch of builds, and use a bunch of different tools, and load outs, so if this is an opportunity to theory craft, min max, etc will be fun. 

I got to experience more of them though, to have stronger feelings and thoughts. 

[(PSN)Wildman537]

1 hour ago, Charlotte said:

You're not the keeper of the truth. Challenge CAN be and IS also about damage. I've been playing RPGs throughout my whole life and dealing with these kind of challenges during all of it, so don't try to explain what is and isn't a challenge based solely on your opinion. Remove the tankiness and you may as well just one shot them with a gunblade.

I believe what he's meaning is that challenge derived from a single source becomes tedious quickly. Think of fetch quests in games, the best ones make you feel like your accomplishing something or Doing new and interesting things while you run them. As it sits the current system is just too basic, the liches ability's are amazing, which is a good starting point, but there needs to be something more to do then just standing around in a room firing at a enemy over and over on loop for multiple minuets at a time.

I personally think it would be best to strip back the lichens resistances a bit, not enough to get to one shot territory, but just enough to where its still challenging and then add in more interesting ways to engage the lich once to the assassination mission. Up to this point they've been coming to you, it would make sense for them to be under prepared. But in these missions your chasing them down, to their capital ship, in their area, when they know your coming. I feel they should at the very least try to stall you and use their minions to defeat you, no? It would be much more engaging if they did things to stop you like planting traps or using interesting gimics (think of the cool features of the new jackal fight from last year) before finally being backed into a corner and fighting you one on one.

[Charlotte]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Wildman537 said:

I believe what he's meaning is that challenge derived from a single source becomes tedious quickly. Think of fetch quests in games, the best ones make you feel like your accomplishing something or Doing new and interesting things while you run them. As it sits the current system is just too basic, the liches ability's are amazing, which is a good starting point, but there needs to be something more to do then just standing around in a room firing at a enemy over and over on loop for multiple minuets at a time.

I agree. I'm not a game designer, so I have no idea about what kind of mechanics they could bring, but it would be a nice change. Something we're not used to, like Nihil. What makes me want to gouge my eyes out is when I see someone saying a bunch of subjective crap as a fact. Damage and damage mitigation are both part of the challenge. Not enough, I agree, but it is part of it. A lot of turn-based RPG relies on these things as a part of the challenge, so people should stop acting like a bunch of arrogant know-it-all.

[Anaktoria]

3 hours ago, Charlotte said:

You're not the keeper of the truth. Challenge CAN be and IS also about damage. I've been playing RPGs throughout my whole life and dealing with these kind of challenges during all of it, so don't try to explain what is and isn't a challenge based solely on your opinion. Remove the tankiness and you may as well just one shot them with a gunblade.

I'm certainly not saying it is not about damage. I'm simply saying that (in my opinion, of course - and that should go without saying, always, but I am re-emphasizing it since it seems that wasn't clear) past a certain point, simply making your boss have more health does not make the boss more challenging. Think of it this way: I'm designing you a final boss. My final boss has 10,000,000,000,000 HP. My boss has one attack, which is to punch you every five seconds with the same exact limited range and the same exact animation. Would you say this is a difficult boss? More difficult than the same boss at 10,000 HP?

Of course that's an oversimplification, but I hope you understand the idea. Tankiness AND mechanics contribute to challenge, and in my opinion, what DE did here went so far with tankiness (and did not compensate enough in other interesting or engaging ways) that it did not overall increase the challenge. And of course, yes, this is only my opinion (I say this as the keeper of opinions, in my opinion), but I hope this might help change your opinion. I hope this will also help you, perhaps, recognize that things people say here are indeed - as ever - simply offered opinions, not attacks on you or your opinions or your no doubt impressive lifelong experience with games, and that there is no need to become defensive or aggressive in response to said opinions. I wish you the best!

[(XBOX)Zxyur]

As a casual player I don't have time to crunch numbers and spend hours  strategizing nor the desire to. Maybe make like 50% be to cap of kuva and sisters be on the normal starchart. And have 51% to 60% (the cap be in steel parh) giving the option to players to have a harder difficulty but be more rewarded. I don't know just throwing out an idea. 

[Anaktoria]

Wanted to add, because I just had a fight with my current Sister at rank 3 - I'd like to add that I feel rank 3 Sisters strike a decent balance between damage reduction and everything else (both in on-planet fights, and during the final showdown in the railjack mission). I think it would be cool if DE could balance rank 5s to be a little closer to rank 3s.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Wildman537 said:

I believe what he's meaning is that challenge derived from a single source becomes tedious quickly. Think of fetch quests in games, the best ones make you feel like your accomplishing something or Doing new and interesting things while you run them. As it sits the current system is just too basic, the liches ability's are amazing, which is a good starting point, but there needs to be something more to do then just standing around in a room firing at a enemy over and over on loop for multiple minuets at a time.

I personally think it would be best to strip back the lichens resistances a bit, not enough to get to one shot territory, but just enough to where its still challenging and then add in more interesting ways to engage the lich once to the assassination mission. Up to this point they've been coming to you, it would make sense for them to be under prepared. But in these missions your chasing them down, to their capital ship, in their area, when they know your coming. I feel they should at the very least try to stall you and use their minions to defeat you, no? It would be much more engaging if they did things to stop you like planting traps or using interesting gimics (think of the cool features of the new jackal fight from last year) before finally being backed into a corner and fighting you one on one.

You summed it up very well! Agree with all of this, and thank you for understanding my post, spot-on.