The new lich's damage reduction is insane

[Anaktoria]

On 2021-07-12 at 10:40 AM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That highlights the core issue with Warframe's damage system. Damage multipliers and damage dividers all over the place making things needlessly complicated.

Enemies can have +10x ehp over the enemy next to it.

A player can deal 10x more damage than the rest of the squad combined.

The in game advice is actually wrong. Tool tip literally says "Puncture is best against armor".

Bane mods are multiplicative with Base Damage despite the wording not suggesting that at all.

There are a bunch of hidden damage mechanics that players need to check the wiki written by Simulacrum warriors.

Power to the people who work out these intricacies, but it's no wonder DE has a needlessly difficult time balancing the game when most of them barely understand it or are bound to overlook things.

It's neat that the capped Corrosive breaks even with a full strip at 4500 Ferrite armor a level 74 heavy gunner sports, which is where the new gentler scaling kicks in. Missed the ball on Viral/Slash. Losing 4xIPS weighting did not balance Viral's buff because HM and stances.

Warframe needs a stat squish. Replace multiplier interactions with additive ones on both sides.

 

Very small note but doesn't the scaling kick in at level 80? I may be wrong.

[Azamagon]

8 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

Honestly, I'm finding Liches way harder to kill than Sisters.

I concur. Sisters are a piece of cake, but Liches can be seriously hardy

[Azamagon]

Oops, glitched out with a doublepost :/

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

5 minutes ago, Anaktoria said:

Very small note but doesn't the scaling kick in at level 80? I may be wrong.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

From wiki:

Health, shields, and armor scaling formulae use two main functions to determine stat scaling at a particular level. One function is used when enemy level difference is below 70 and the other when enemy level difference is above 80. A common feature between the functions used is that they intersect at x=80. In other words, they produce the same value when the enemy level difference is 80.

Stat scaling between 70-80 inclusive is interpolated from the two functions using smoothstep.

[Anaktoria]

1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

From wiki:

Health, shields, and armor scaling formulae use two main functions to determine stat scaling at a particular level. One function is used when enemy level difference is below 70 and the other when enemy level difference is above 80. A common feature between the functions used is that they intersect at x=80. In other words, they produce the same value when the enemy level difference is 80.

Stat scaling between 70-80 inclusive is interpolated from the two functions using smoothstep.

Oh, interesting! TIL, much thanks for the information.

[Rauvian]

On 2021-07-07 at 11:58 PM, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Good I want them to be this way. Seriously they need to make them more difficult and a bit more spongy. I want a legit boss fight not something I can complete I around 5-10 minutes.

Remember when the Wolf first came out? Before they nerfed him? They should be like that vs the watered down versions we now have. 

 

Theres nothing clever about ramping damage down to 0. This isnt about skill anymore its about strong-arming your way through a fight.

[(NSW)Greybones]

21 minutes ago, Rauvian said:

Theres nothing clever about ramping damage down to 0. This isnt about skill anymore its about strong-arming your way through a fight.

Er. Weren’t people normally strong-arming their way through a fight, and that’s why the DR was implemented in the first place?

[Slayer-.]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Er. Weren’t people normally strong-arming their way through a fight, and that’s why the DR was implemented in the first place?

I think it was to stop players just using Mesa and Necramechs from just going in and smiting the Lich, I'm all for it, you have to prepare for the fight now imo.

[Marcus.Argonius]

Lich too tough DE pls fix

[Jaysus41]

15 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I think it was to stop players just using Mesa and Necramechs from just going in and smiting the Lich, I'm all for it, you have to prepare for the fight now imo.

And by "prepare" they mean a single K Hek quad shot directly to the cranium. Lich = Smited

I find it offensive that we have to choose between weapons that can either do "death by 10,000 cuts" or "nuclear shotgun shell" with no room in between. Call it what it is, Invincibility Phases 2.0.

 

[Slayer-.]

7 hours ago, Jaysus41 said:

And by "prepare" they mean a single K Hek quad shot directly to the cranium. Lich = Smited

I find it offensive that we have to choose between weapons that can either do "death by 10,000 cuts" or "nuclear shotgun shell" with no room in between. Call it what it is, Invincibility Phases 2.0.

 

Haha yeah pretty much, I've just been using my soma Prime for the Lich's, works a treat.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

8 hours ago, Jaysus41 said:

And by "prepare" they mean a single K Hek quad shot directly to the cranium. Lich = Smited

I find it offensive that we have to choose between weapons that can either do "death by 10,000 cuts" or "nuclear shotgun shell" with no room in between. Call it what it is, Invincibility Phases 2.0.

 

This. 

 

"But muh challenge". It isnt "challenging". Its just annoying. 

[Marcus.Argonius]

No really Fragor Prime that does 6-7 digits damage to everything else does what, 400-600 damage to a lvl 1 lich. What challenge is that, patience?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Marcus.Argonius said:

No really Fragor Prime that does 6-7 digits damage to everything else does what, 400-600 damage to a lvl 1 lich. What challenge is that, patience?

Literally the opposite to the flat damage reduction other games use. 

Big hit weapons are not only worse at applying status, they do less damage too!

 

[Neoflubb]

Some have mentioned similar things to what I'm about to write, but I'm hoping to formulate it in a quite concise manner.

I welcome the Liches and others to be tanky (and have other forms of challenge too!). I don't mind them taking a while to kill. What I do mind is that how the damage reduction works is not intuitive to the players and feels difficult to adapt to fight against.  In my experience I can have a hard hitting weapon that deals over 500k damage to enemies around the lich that then deals under 3k to the lich. I can on the other hand have a assult rifle go from 3k on normal enemies to 200-300 on the lich. To me the weaknesses and resistances of the lich feel irrelevant as I feel as effective adapting to them as I do if I ignore it. Some weapons that normally perform similar (even with the same build) may have way different results when used against a lich. This leaves me as a player feeling pigeon holed into using "meta" weapons or just the ones I have found to be the most effective instead of using a different playstyle that in all other contexts work just as well.

This reminds me of when Operation Scarlet Spear was around, to my knowledge one of the first times at least a similar "theoretical dps" based damage reduction was used. During this event I noticed something that I and those I played with thought was a bug, the damage numbers I was getting were reduced when I stepped into a wisp speed mote. When I had a boost to fire rate my hits dealt less damage! I don't know if my total dps was higher with the buff but we were convinved that it was a bug (recorded and submitted a bug report).

How should the enemy know how fast I can fire... 

Why is the damage reduction more than 10x as strong for my heavy hitter compared to an assult rifle...

Why do I not notice the lich resistances (some say they do but I personally don't as it for me doesn't make the difference between a 20s fight and a 5min fight for example, I would be within either category depending on what gear I happen to use).