[Feedback] Kuva Hek needs slight tweaks

[Ernestasx]

Firstly, a short disclaimer: I believe that the 3 new Kuva Lich weapons are actually really fun and quite powerful weapons. However, the Kuva Hek seems to be lacking in terms of stopping power and comfort of use which leads to the purpose of this topic - to offer buff ideas for the Kuva Hek so it would be a more powerful and comfortable weapon to use than it currently is.

Secondly, I do not even believe that the Kuva Hek is an upgrade to the Vaykor Hek, just a side-grade at best or a slightly weaker version at worst.

The Warframe Wiki stat comparison of these two weapon variants is almost fully accurate to the game's stats aside from some errors (Kuva Hek has a reload time of 1.9 seconds in-game, not 2 seconds and it is not mentioned that it has a 0.3 punch through). Therefore, I will use most of the data from the Wiki as the basis of my argument keeping the inconsistencies in mind whilst relying more on the in-game data rather than purely basing my logic on the data provided on the Wiki page.

As we see in the comparison of both aforementioned weapons are quite similar in terms of performance, but there are a few differences that jump out:

• The magazine of the Kuva Hek is 4 shots while the Vaykor Hek bolsters a magazine of 8 shots, yet the reload times are only 0.35 seconds apart.
• The Vaykor Hek has a much higher potential power ceiling due to the riven disposition being 0.6 higher than Kuva Hek's. Sure, it is subject to change, but this still is an important factor to take into account.
• The Vaykor Hek has a Justice effect which is quite useful due to its AoE factor.
• The Vaykor Hek has a much faster fire rate (27.7% higher) than the Kuva Hek's.
• The Kuva Hek has a punch through value of 0.3 helping slightly in clearing mobs of enemies. It cannot really compare to the Justice proc, though.

So for the solution of this problem: I believe that the Kuva Hek should have a reload time of 1.7 seconds or even a shorter one of 1.4 if we are being very generous. Personally, even with the reload time being at 1.4 seconds it felt quite sluggish because the weapon still has 4 shots and the fire rate isn't particularly high. Moreover, I will obviously mention that the Kuva Hek should definitely allow the usage of Scattering Justice. This matter should not even be up for debate at this point. Initially, I could see why Vaykor Hek would not have access to Scattering Justice due to it already having Justice procs (even then the logic fails in light of every other weapon example like the Dark Dagger weapon variants all having access to their mod Gleaming Blight mod) but the Kuva Hek not having access to it is absurd and should be remedied immediately because the weapon is definitely not in a state where it would suddenly spike to an overwhelming level of power with access to Scattering Justice, especially taking into account that multishot does not directly increase status chance anymore.

TL;DR
Reload time should be somewhere between 1.7 to 1.4 seconds.

Access to Scattering Justice should be granted to the Kuva Hek at the very least. Preferably all weapon variants should be able to access the mod.

 

[Infirito]

Yeah, I was excited when I read about Kuva Hek in the update notes, this excitement died when I saw the stats, really don't see a reason to switch from Vaykor as it is indeed a sidegrade. Kuva Hek basically have a bit less CC, a bit more status and damage, and half the mag size. Tbh, with the augment I'm not even sure it's an upgrade over regular Hek. Seems pretty simillar to the situation with Astilla Prime which is only marginally better than regular.

And yes, there's also rivens too.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Not that I dont think it still needs a buff, but doesnt the Kuva have a potential of 974 base damage after you factor in the +60% kuva damage? Or does the wiki now list the Kuvas with max damage included?

[rapt0rman]

Kuva Hek has 974.4 base damage with a 60% valence bonus, that's nearly double the base damage of regular and Vaykor Hek

[Ernestasx]

24 minutes ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

Not that I dont think it still needs a buff, but doesnt the Kuva have a potential of 974 base damage after you factor in the +60% kuva damage? Or does the wiki now list the Kuvas with max damage included?

 

23 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Kuva Hek has 974.4 base damage with a 60% valence bonus, that's nearly double the base damage of regular and Vaykor Hek

Yes, both of you are correct. My bad. The damage is probably not as similar as it was, though it being sluggish is still a valid concern. It doesn't feel as strong as it should, in my opinion and a reload speed boost would be great alongside the aforementioned Scattered Justice inclusion.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Like I said, could probably still use a buff, after all Tigris has damage for days but its small clip kills its use, just as the reload does for the Kek.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I think it supposed to have high status and that’s supposed to help it.

The problem is that shotgun status is awful. Seriously they throw in all these gun buff mods but they can’t fix the weapon type that they themselves ruined.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2021-07-09 at 12:38 PM, Ernestasx said:

The Warframe Wiki stat comparison of these two weapon variants is almost fully accurate to the game's stats aside from some errors (Kuva Hek has a reload time of 1.9 seconds in-game, not 2 seconds and it is not mentioned that it has a 0.3 punch through). Therefore, I will use most of the data from the Wiki as the basis of my argument keeping the inconsistencies in mind whilst relying more on the in-game data rather than purely basing my logic on the data provided on the Wiki page.

As we see in the comparison of both aforementioned weapons are quite similar in terms of performance, but there are a few differences that jump out:

• The magazine of the Kuva Hek is 4 shots while the Vaykor Hek bolsters a magazine of 8 shots, yet the reload times are only 0.35 seconds apart.
• The Vaykor Hek has a much faster fire rate (27.7% higher) than the Kuva Hek's.

So for the solution of this problem: I believe that the Kuva Hek should have a reload time of 1.7 seconds or even a shorter one of 1.4 if we are being very generous. Personally, even with the reload time being at 1.4 seconds it felt quite sluggish because the weapon still has 4 shots and the fire rate isn't particularly high.

For the sake of statistical data points:

The Reload Quotient of Vaykor Hek (at 2.25s reload) is 54.237%. This would be closest matched if the Kuva Hek reload time was 1.55 sec (RQ = 54.322%)

At minimum Bonus the Kuva Hek has 45% more per-shot damage and 5.13% more burst DPS than the Vaykor Hek. (Not counting K-Hek's alt-fire.)

With no change to the Reload Time, the Kuva Hek would require a minimum of 34.5% Bonus to equal the Vaykor Hek in sustained fire.
With the Reload Time reduced to 1.55 the Kuva Hek would maintain a similar ~5.3% greater sustained DPS at minimum bonus than the Vaykor Hek.

[Traumtulpe]

Unexpectedly, I am not even talking about the augment mod. My gripe with this gun lies with the alternate fire mode: That spread is atrocious! If I fire 4 shots at once, at 4x the spread, I will do a lot less damage unless I am literally in melee range. And disregarding the alt fire, this weapon is nothing special. Not even particularly good against single targets.

Can you just give the alt fire the same spread as a normal shot? Pretty please?

To illustrate my point, a comparison between regular shots and the alt fire, using very high reload speed (which you'd expect to bias the comparison towards the alt fire):

This is at 15m, within the maximum damage range, and with a build favouring the alt fire, yet it isn't worth using at all!

Since I was so disappointed by the Kuva Hek, I considered getting a Corinth Prime instead. So I did some math how it would compare:

Taking into account everything including reloads, magazine size, fire rate, base damage, 60% Kuva bonus, etc, except noncritical hits (worthless, Hunter Munitions), the Kuva Hek has 15% more DPS and a free element, while the Corinth Prime has a useful alt fire and it's falloff is more than 2x as good.

In conclusion: If you want to shoot enemies farther than 15 meters away, and would like an alternate fire mode that is actually useful, get a Corinth Prime! If you want to shoot single enemies in melee range (why would you do that?) the Kuva Hek is just right for you!

 

[LillyRaccune]

Maybe if the alt-fire created a AoE shockwave that granted a guaranteed knockdown? It would at least provide a utility function.

[Jokie155]

It has an alt-fire? Here I was thinking it was an ok head-popper that got absolutely gutted against elites because of the DPS cap.

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, Jokie155 said:

It has an alt-fire?

Yes, you fire all 4 shots and have to reload. Kinda like the Tigris. But the spead is all over the place, making this really bad at any range besides melee - in which case you are better off doing a heavy attack.

[rapt0rman]

It really shouldn't be a surprise that they didn't want to just give us a nearly 4k base damage sniper shotgun.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

It really shouldn't be a surprise that they didn't want to just give us a nearly 4k base damage sniper shotgun.

Given that it takes about 2.5 seconds between shots and has falloff after 15m, it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Tigris Prime has 3k damage with 1.8 seconds between shots, and is very accurate, and nobody uses it anymore. You do the math.

[Tiltskillet]

An all alt-fire build could be interesting with Tainted Shell.  Too bad it's not exilus. 

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

An all alt-fire build could be interesting with Tainted Shell.  Too bad it's not exilus. 

Definitely not worth. Fire rate affects the delay between shots and reload, and any mod you'd remove increases damage by at least 110%.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Definitely not worth. Fire rate affects the delay between shots and reload . . .

That's lame.  Can you circumvent that with manual reload?

 

[rapt0rman]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

Given that it takes about 2.5 seconds between shots and has falloff after 15m, it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Tigris Prime has 3k damage with 1.8 seconds between shots, and is very accurate, and nobody uses it anymore. You do the math.

Kuva Hek also has better crit chance and damage, status, and a free element.

TBH im counting on people getting bored of the K Hek reguardless.

[Traumtulpe]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Can you circumvent that with manual reload?

Nope, not at all.

[Bakaguya-sama]

 Try the Tenet Detron. Similar ammo dump mechanic, large clip (which can be enhanced by Ice Storm), tight spread, good damage, fast reload, works like a dream.  

Just continuing the weird trend the 2ndary shotguns are so much better than the primary shotguns. Pyrana Prime, Catchmoon, Kuva Brakk, and now this. I'm pretty sure that if you make a secondary version of the Cedo with the same mechanics, it would be better than the primary version too. For some reason the 2ndary versions are just better tune and have access to better mod selections.  

 

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Try the Tenet Detron.

It's great, I use it against Sisters and Liches, but being unable to proc slash means it isn't useful against high level enemies.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Maybe if it had approximately 200% more multishot these issues would be fixed.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

5m punch through, make the alt fire the same range and spread of the primary and double its range, go full bore on the shotgun sniper it used to be. Still would only be a niche weapon like all the actual snipers, but right now the two projectile base kuva/tenet shotguns put the Kek to shame.

[taiiat]

for the Primary Fire, it's an upgrade over Vaykor Hek - but - it doesn't feel like it. more Base Damage sure will make it better, but the things that Vaykor Hek was struggling with, that this series of Shotguns really needs to be somewhat unique....

• is somewhat consistent Crits. it's a precision Shotgun, but the Damage is very inconsistent.
• to actually be a """Sniper Shotgun""". Digital Extremes sees Vaykor Hek as a 'Sniper Shotgnu', but a Tigris is literally better at that. why is the Falloff so short and so harsh? it should have the longest effective Range and shallowest falloff of any Shotgun. 

[Venus-Venera]

the weapon generally does not work. like most single target weapons.
what's the point of this alt-fire in mele range, if my gunblade even after an hour of SP kill Acolytes with 1-shot as soon as shield is gone? and they only have heat proc. I only say 3mil crits! no relead, ammo or whatever.

A lot has to happen here to make the weapon lucrative.