It's time to nerf Wukong

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Try to rethink your approach with Frost in SP. His survival stats can get really high, with mine sitting at 1k+ armor, 1.4k+ health and 1.8k+ shields, with the plus sign being dependent on slight tweaks in setup (and he's Umbral modded). Now, because this is SP, subsuming plays a big role and so I swapped his iceball with Parasitic Armor. This alone almost triples his armor contribution to its overall health but I also have arcane guardian for an added 900 armor to the bubble's health equation, since armor heavily influences the overall strength of the bubble.

Testing just a 100% strength cast of Parasitic Armor, my armor value increases from a base 1000 to 2800 (1800 shield convert +1000 base). With my 200% strength setup however, along with arcane guardian active, armor shoots up to 5500 (1000 base + 3600 shield convert + 900 from arcane). This doesn't include over shield values (not sure if those values are recognized by Para Armor), but my overshields can reach about 2680 shields. If those values work as well, then you're now playing with 7260 armor applied to every bubble casted while Para Armor is active, plus a Frost with higher armor than every frame in the game. The only extra work required is arcane activation and ability activation. The bubble maintains those values even after Parasitic expires so launch one and observe the difference.

Lastly, toss in adaptation to further fortify Frost himself and use the Vazarin focus school as a much more beneficial sub for rolling guard (saving a mod slot) and the only thing you'll have to worry about is that pesky damage reflect from a certain acolyte. Lol! Of course, my math could be wrong so test it out and see how it feels for you.

Using parasitiv armor is the wierdest thing. Why have a armor based frame get more shield than armor? Although I gotta admit this sounds cool. I may keep on arcane grace over guardian or keep arcane tanker. Thank you for this idea as most people keep just saying lol bad, and moving on.

[Rantear]

11 минут назад, Drachnyn сказал:

Ah, wukong player. Now I understand why you are so hellbent over this. Relax, I am not calling you out in any way.

Really weird thing you've singled out, my wish to play CC frames is a much stronger sign of what kind of player I Am.
You really have nothing of value to say? As the saying here goes: should've stayed quiet then, would've looked smarter.
Hellbent on wanting them to fix the balance instead of some nonsense changes that'll fix nothing? I sure am.
 

Спойлер

My main is actually a Limbo, I just use Wukong when I want to grind for something fast (which is often nowadays considering I only play on the weekend evenings now), or when Limbo is struggling with content (thanks DE, very cool Eximus and Thrax you've made, no joking, I only hate their CC immunity).
Although he does now have more use time, but so does Equinox, I think.
Also Grinding Railjack and Zariman took way too long, and constant disruptions for relics, another problem that I want them to fix (low rates), or at least not to do in the future.

I'm actually curious, why are you so hellbent on trashing the monkey? In advance - "cuz AFK" is a dumb argument with no backing, so don't try to use it for the third time, it still won't become true.
And almost mandatory, and just as dumb, but nonetheless still true: don't play it, nobody's forcing you, enjoy the game however you want, even my casual sorry backside still has many ways of cheesing the game, if they offend your eyes in public - ask to fix the AoE weapons and they might dissapear, wukong is not a strong frame without them, although then you'll just see more Titanias, Gausses or Volts, not really a great exchange.
Although i don't understand why are you trying to antagonize me so much, as I've said: I don't care about the wuclone, I would actually welcome the change, or even removal tbh,
so we should be on the same wavelength here, unless you really have something against the players themselves, or against nerfing the AoE.... or did you get salty after realizing that you're trying to argue with no facts? Eh, it happens, no need to be upset over it.
Oh and before you'll make up some another weird headcannon about me: My most used primary is Ignis (cuz horde shooter), and second is Lanka built for fire rate, neither Zarr nor Bramma are even close to those 2, despite me actually liking the weapons.

Anyway, let's stop derailing the thread, especially now that it migrated somewhere else again.

[Drachnyn]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Rantear:

Really weird thing you've singled out, my wish to play CC frames is a much stronger sign of what kind of player I Am.
You really have nothing of value to say? As the saying here goes: should've stayed quiet then, would've looked smarter.
Hellbent on wanting them to fix the balance instead of some nonsense changes that'll fix nothing? I sure am.
 

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My main is actually a Limbo, I just use Wukong when I want to grind for something fast (which is often nowadays considering I only play on the weekend evenings now), or when Limbo is struggling with content (thanks DE, very cool Eximus and Thrax you've made, no joking, I only hate their CC immunity).
Although he does now have more use time, but so does Equinox, I think.
Also Grinding Railjack and Zariman took way too long, and constant disruptions for relics, another problem that I want them to fix (low rates), or at least not to do in the future.

I'm actually curious, why are you so hellbent on trashing the monkey? In advance - "cuz AFK" is a dumb argument with no backing, so don't try to use it for the third time, it still won't become true.
And almost mandatory, and just as dumb, but nonetheless still true: don't play it, nobody's forcing you, enjoy the game however you want, even my casual sorry backside still has many ways of cheesing the game, if they offend your eyes in public - ask to fix the AoE weapons and they might dissapear, wukong is not a strong frame without them, although then you'll just see more Titanias, Gausses or Volts, not really a great exchange.
Although i don't understand why are you trying to antagonize me so much, as I've said: I don't care about the wuclone, I would actually welcome the change, or even removal tbh,
so we should be on the same wavelength here, unless you really have something against the players themselves, or against nerfing the AoE.... or did you get salty after realizing that you're trying to argue with no facts? Eh, it happens, no need to be upset over it.
Oh and before you'll make up some another weird headcannon about me: My most used primary is Ignis (cuz horde shooter), and second is Lanka built for fire rate, neither Zarr nor Bramma are even close to those 2, despite me actually liking the weapons.

Anyway, let's stop derailing the thread, especially now that it migrated somewhere else again.

Hellbent on pretending wukong isnt a frame that has an insane ratio of effort required compared to performance achieved (aka a lazy frame). I can say this without needing to look over the shoulder of every wukong player and instead by just looking at the abilities. Obviously wuclone is the ability that achieves that. I see people claiming he's so fast, I guess they forgot about slide speed cloud. Obviously every weapon that's good for us to use is also good on wukong to use but between potentially 4 people using the kuva zarr and 5 people there is not that much difference anymore. That by itself doesnt explain the wide gap between wukong and every other frame.

Personally I dont care what other people play, this is just the current hot topic so I'm chiming in with my takes. I dont think AoE weapons nor wukong need a nerf, it's mission design that's boring imo. If people wanna play boring frames that's not my problem. Game designers will understandably feel differently about that.

I'm not alone in that in thinking wukong shines at afk stuff. Pablo himself does so to and I would like to think given his generally good insight into the game and being the person who was in charge of the current version of wukong his opinion should hold quite a bit of weight there.

I'm calling you a wukong player because it's your most used frame, pretty significantly aswell.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, makaloff95 said:

well i know its going to sound vague but id say majroity of the non explosive weapons dont deserve getting nerfed just beacuse aoe weapons are an issue.

Not only AoE is an issue. Even single target weapons are currently too strong, as endgame builds wipe the floor with enemies in endgame content such as SP Incursions, even when not using things like priming, full armour stripping, or even the right damage types or additional Warframe buffs, even when using single target weapons that aren't top tier.

Reducing their maximum potential damage output by addressing the damage bonus stacks via Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes grant, even if it means something like a 50% max potential damage bonus decrease in total, won't change much in terms of the performance players can attain, but it will change the way players can attain that performance, as it would place more value on the additional tools available to us via Warframe abilities, priming, damage types etc.

How do I know this? Because I play a lot of SP missions solo with nerfed gear, purely to test it, including SP, Today's weapon of choice was the Dex Sybaris, as I remembered it has been sitting in my inventory and decided I would give it a go, with a build like this due to capacity restrictions: New Dex Sybaris Build - Warframe Dex Sybaris - Overframe

We've already seen rebalances that appear quite drastic, don't really affect the performance in most missions all that much: Melee was nerfed rather drastically. Not even accounting for the nerfs to stances, the maximum damage output was nerfed by around 45% under the conditions below and it didn't change a lot in terms of actual performance:

 

 

DE can go ahead and rebalance the bonusses Galv mods and Weapons Arcanes give. We don't need that extra power. All that extra power does, is dumb down the game, make it close to impossible for DE to balance enemies properly and it screws us players, because it results in DE having to nerf our damage anyway "behind the scenes", in the form of damage attenuation formulas as seen enemies like Acolytes, Liches and Demolishers. What would you prefer? Having our maximum potential nerfed and knowing what kind of damage you can expect vs enemies like Liches, Acolytes and Demolishers, or having extra power that is lost to overkill and has little practical value, then getting it nerfed "behind the scenes" via damage attenuation anyway, against the enemies that actually matter, not knowing what kind of performance you can expect against those enemies? I prefer the former, because it sucks to upgrade my weapon setup and thinking it is going to perform twice as well, but then when I actually go and fight an Acolyte, it does 10 - 20% better.

[MutoManiac]

From what I see, only people who play in low level missions in pugs and never play solo hate Wukong and AOE. There’s a large player base that plays mostly solo unless it’s a difficult boss they can’t solo themselves like Profit Taker. If they nerf one of the most popular frames and weapons, these solo players will be impacted the most. So some of you jealous of Wukong types will be happy for no good reason and us Wukong mains will hate you and DE. Just leave it alone, the game is fine. If we enjoy what you call brain dead casual, which I don’t agree that it is, why would you care? I see plenty of people leave a squad when they see a Saryn, so just leave if you see Wukong. You won’t be missed and I won’t need to constantly revive you. 😆

[makaloff95]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Not only AoE is an issue. Even single target weapons are currently too strong, as endgame builds wipe the floor with enemies in endgame content such as SP Incursions, even when not using things like priming, full armour stripping, or even the right damage types or additional Warframe buffs, even when using single target weapons that aren't top tier.

Reducing their maximum potential damage output by addressing the damage bonus stacks via Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes grant, even if it means something like a 50% max potential damage bonus decrease in total, won't change much in terms of the performance players can attain, but it will change the way players can attain that performance, as it would place more value on the additional tools available to us via Warframe abilities, priming, damage types etc.

How do I know this? Because I play a lot of SP missions solo with nerfed gear, purely to test it, including SP, Today's weapon of choice was the Dex Sybaris, as I remembered it has been sitting in my inventory and decided I would give it a go, with a build like this due to capacity restrictions: New Dex Sybaris Build - Warframe Dex Sybaris - Overframe

We've already seen rebalances that appear quite drastic, don't really affect the performance in most missions all that much: Melee was nerfed rather drastically. Not even accounting for the nerfs to stances, the maximum damage output was nerfed by around 45% under the conditions below and it didn't change a lot in terms of actual performance:

 

 

DE can go ahead and rebalance the bonusses Galv mods and Weapons Arcanes give. We don't need that extra power. All that extra power does, is dumb down the game, make it close to impossible for DE to balance enemies properly and it screws us players, because it results in DE having to nerf our damage anyway "behind the scenes", in the form of damage attenuation formulas as seen enemies like Acolytes, Liches and Demolishers. What would you prefer? Having our maximum potential nerfed and knowing what kind of damage you can expect vs enemies like Liches, Acolytes and Demolishers, or having extra power that is lost to overkill and has little practical value, then getting it nerfed "behind the scenes" via damage attenuation anyway, against the enemies that actually matter, not knowing what kind of performance you can expect against those enemies? I prefer the former, because it sucks to upgrade my weapon setup and thinking it is going to perform twice as well, but then when I actually go and fight an Acolyte, it does 10 - 20% better.

My biggest worry is that they would overnerf things, besides, ST weapons being able to be used in SP isnt a bad thing is it? by nerfing other weapons aswell you will just make the amount of weapons avaible for SP smaller. However i do agree it would nice if we could see a proper damage output rather than having to theorycraft performance.

Allthought i know im the minority since i can easily sit and do 3h long SP missions (probably longer with proper set up), but in the end i dont find this to be a excuse to nerf non aoe weapons, beacuse all you will do is just making the meta picks stronger and a weapon type shouldnt have to suffer just beacuse a few selected weapons are over the top. Blanket nerfs are never a good idea, like how fun would it be to know that the Soma P you wanna use in SP will be useless for SP thanks to a blanket nerf?

So in short: go nerf aoe if you want but dont touch the rest of the weapons.

[Giagantic]

1 hour ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

From what I see, only people who play in low level missions in pugs and never play solo hate Wukong and AOE. There’s a large player base that plays mostly solo unless it’s a difficult boss they can’t solo themselves like Profit Taker. If they nerf one of the most popular frames and weapons, these solo players will be impacted the most. So some of you jealous of Wukong types will be happy for no good reason and us Wukong mains will hate you and DE. Just leave it alone, the game is fine. If we enjoy what you call brain dead casual, which I don’t agree that it is, why would you care? I see plenty of people leave a squad when they see a Saryn, so just leave if you see Wukong. You won’t be missed and I won’t need to constantly revive you. 😆

Ok... are you even reading this thread...

Wukong is nerf worthy according to the very history of nerfs in Warframe. Once again, DE has made it an effort of theirs to snuff out frames and weapons with abilities that literally play for you, this was the case with old Ember's World of Fire. What did it do? Seeing as you are relatively new, it was a toggle ability that basically set everything on fire around you. What was the result? People afk farmed with her. Another such nerf was the Zennistar, and what did it do? It placed a disc on the ground much like the current form but for a long, long time instead without requiring combo counter to work and did more damage. What was the result? People afk farmed with it. 

What does Wukong do? He presses 1 and can let his clone play the game for you without any further actions. What is the result? There are Wukong running only one weapon (Bramma / Zarr) and running through levels letting their clone do 99% of the work due to having infinite ammo. Worse still, he actually scales better then both Zennistar and World of Fire.

You seem to think for some oddball reason that this discussion is created by a bunch of bozos that are jealous of Wukong. God no, we are discussing why he is being nerfed, and I can say for myself and many others that it isn't personal.

Lasty, stop it with your silly presumptions that are totally unfounded, it comes off as purely defensive on your part rather then constructive. Sigh...

[(PSN)BMWWOW]

Just heard they (DE) are thinking about nerfing Wukong after basically just buffing Wukong this last year....??
IS THAT TRUE?? 

Heard it's because Wukong is the Most Used warframe (I mean you can get him at MR 5 so is this really a surprise?).

Apparently Grendel is the least used - OH MY GOSH HUGE SURPRISE THAT THIS UTTER JOKE OF A FRAME WITH AWFUL POWERS DOES NOT GET USED?!?!?  Who ever saw that coming!?!?!?  (sarcasm fyi).  Honestly, Grendel is my absolute least played frame because the execution / creation was done by a team of stoned people who were actually thinking about getting a pizza and not about game design (or so it very much appears).

Anyway, while Grendel needs an ABSOLUTE FULL COMPLETE TOTAL 100% MASSIVE REWORK.....

Can't we just leave Wukong Alone?  He was always kinda fun for me and then after the BUFF he became much more fun.  He is a good LEARNING frame for newcomers.
I say BUFF / REWORK Grendel - absolutely Yes.

But leave Wukong alone.  <--- My Vote.

[cute_moth.npc]

It's true, Pablo has been discussing this on Twitter lately and this is like post #150 they're getting squissshed into a mega thread I think? 

Grendel is honestly better designed than a number of other Warframes to me such as "can't move properly indoors skateboarder" or "1-2-3-4 crouch-crouch-crouch-crouch 1-2-3-4 crouch-crouch-crouch-crouch "music" frame", but that's another story ^^

See you in the megathread when you get squished in! 

[Numerikuu]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

Just heard they (DE) are thinking about nerfing Wukong after basically just buffing Wukong this last year....??
IS THAT TRUE??

He was buffed back in 2019. However said 'buff' (aka his aimbot nuke twin) made him more worse than ye olde World on Fire Ember. Like her, all he has to do is use one skill once, and run (or in this case cloudfart) through the map 🤷‍♀️ inb4 old WoF Ember wouldn't nuke anywhere near as hard and fast as Wukong in normal/SP though.

If something seems far, far too OP in the game, 9/10 times it will be nerfed eventually. The moment his rework dropped I saw it coming lol. If it weren't for the Covid delays there's a possibility he'd have been dealt with far sooner. Sadly it was left so long, meaning more upset monkeys.

[Marvelous_A]

Yeah no everyone knows Wukong doesn't get nerfed out of the highest usage and no one should know better than a Wukong player.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Literally the best thing for Wukong is to make his 4 good again so players will use it again and subsequently means Wuclone will only use it.

[xXDragonGodXx]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

Apparently Grendel is the least used - OH MY GOSH HUGE SURPRISE THAT THIS UTTER JOKE OF A FRAME WITH AWFUL POWERS DOES NOT GET USED?!?!?  Who ever saw that coming!?!?!?  (sarcasm fyi).  Honestly, Grendel is my absolute least played frame because the execution / creation was done by a team of stoned people who were actually thinking about getting a pizza and not about game design (or so it very much appears).

Anyway, while Grendel needs an ABSOLUTE FULL COMPLETE TOTAL 100% MASSIVE REWORK.....

While I can appreciate the sarcasm... go to bed.. your drunk.. and BTW Grendel is perfect the way he is.. xD

I'm serious... Don't touch my boy Grendel. He is only hungry.

[gamingchair1121]

45 minutes ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

But leave Wukong alone

so do you expect DE to rework ~50 frames? do you have any idea how long that will take? it would be a lot easier to just nerf wukong.

^{really hope they do nerf him, I'm so tired of seeing them every day}

[-Runn_Jegu-]

There is nothing funnier than regurgitating 20 enemies into the face of a player leaving early and waiting in extraction, only to be suddenly faced with a full on hoard of angry slimy attacking enemies, eximus included, as I watch from a far, belch and fart, then run off in the opposite direction, content my job here is done.

With love ~ Grendel

[Genitive]

At least wait with your complaints until they announce the changes.

[X7PLVTINUM]

1 hour ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

Just heard they (DE) are thinking about nerfing Wukong after basically just buffing Wukong this last year....??
IS THAT TRUE?? 

Heard it's because Wukong is the Most Used warframe (I mean you can get him at MR 5 so is this really a surprise?).

Apparently Grendel is the least used - OH MY GOSH HUGE SURPRISE THAT THIS UTTER JOKE OF A FRAME WITH AWFUL POWERS DOES NOT GET USED?!?!?  Who ever saw that coming!?!?!?  (sarcasm fyi).  Honestly, Grendel is my absolute least played frame because the execution / creation was done by a team of stoned people who were actually thinking about getting a pizza and not about game design (or so it very much appears).

Anyway, while Grendel needs an ABSOLUTE FULL COMPLETE TOTAL 100% MASSIVE REWORK.....

Can't we just leave Wukong Alone?  He was always kinda fun for me and then after the BUFF he became much more fun.  He is a good LEARNING frame for newcomers.
I say BUFF / REWORK Grendel - absolutely Yes.

But leave Wukong alone.  <--- My Vote.

This isn't about Grendel or about Wukong, this is about DE. Having Wukong be leagues ahead of all the other warframes is a massive slap in the face to Digital Extremes. they spent ten years creating the other 48 wonderful frames we have today, of course their going to take it personally when only one Warframe is consistently used, it invalidates an entire decade of their studio's work and it isn't doing the playerbase any favors either when they have to see the same Warframe used in every single mission

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

For the uneducated:

"Nourished Energy multiplicatively increases the Energy points gained or recharged from any source for the buffed player by 1.1x / 1.15x / 1.2x / 1.25x. This includes energy orb pickups, ability gains such as  Energy Vampire, modular effects such as  Rage, and energy per second restoration from auras ( Energy Siphon) and Focus Ways ( Wellspring).

Energy multiplier is affected by Ability Strength."

Not to mention you can basically wipe the floor with any corpus faction.

But you guys are too busy trying to meme with the 4 (meatball).

You're not meant to stay in the 4 forever.

[MutoManiac]

1 hour ago, Giagantic said:

Ok... are you even reading this thread...

Wukong is nerf worthy according to the very history of nerfs in Warframe. Once again, DE has made it an effort of theirs to snuff out frames and weapons with abilities that literally play for you, this was the case with old Ember's World of Fire. What did it do? Seeing as you are relatively new, it was a toggle ability that basically set everything on fire around you. What was the result? People afk farmed with her. Another such nerf was the Zennistar, and what did it do? It placed a disc on the ground much like the current form but for a long, long time instead without requiring combo counter to work and did more damage. What was the result? People afk farmed with it. 

What does Wukong do? He presses 1 and can let his clone play the game for you without any further actions. What is the result? There are Wukong running only one weapon (Bramma / Zarr) and running through levels letting their clone do 99% of the work due to having infinite ammo. Worse still, he actually scales better then both Zennistar and World of Fire.

You seem to think for some oddball reason that this discussion is created by a bunch of bozos that are jealous of Wukong. God no, we are discussing why he is being nerfed, and I can say for myself and many others that it isn't personal.

Lasty, stop it with your silly presumptions that are totally unfounded, it comes off as purely defensive on your part rather then constructive. Sigh...

We’ll that’s the issue isn’t it. You think he plays for you, I don’t, so we disagree. Just like Khora can put up her net and make some missions trivial, doesn’t mean people enjoy that or play like that. You can use a lot of frames to cheese stuff. You and others here though seem obsessed about Wukong because you are jealous, what else can it be? Who cares who uses what? What is the big deal? I don’t enjoy playing with someone who brings Limbo, but I don’t whine about it every day on the forum. So you do you and complain about Wukong and I’ll defend him and complain if they ever nerf anything from him. Just seems fair to me if I have to read all this BS from people who don’t play him, that you have to read my crap also.

[Leqesai]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

For the uneducated:

"Nourished Energy multiplicatively increases the Energy points gained or recharged from any source for the buffed player by 1.1x / 1.15x / 1.2x / 1.25x. This includes energy orb pickups, ability gains such as  Energy Vampire, modular effects such as  Rage, and energy per second restoration from auras ( Energy Siphon) and Focus Ways ( Wellspring).

Energy multiplier is affected by Ability Strength."

Not to mention you can basically wipe the floor with any corpus faction.

But you guys are too busy trying to meme with the 4 (meatball).

You're not meant to stay in the 4 forever.

You're also not meant to suck up 300 enemies and walk around not using them for other abilities. People love complaining about Grendel when they don't know how to use him...

[Kaggelos]

On 2022-08-06 at 6:23 PM, Lutesque said:

While not Rewarding Skillful Ones... 😐 Nice...

On 2022-08-06 at 5:27 PM, Kaggelos said:

I relish the moments i escape near death and triumph over my adversaries using actual fun tactics. THAT is my reward. Its intrinsic. Its Fun. That is the whole point.

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

My two cents here: I've got a (relatively) simple solution that doesn't involve touching Wukong himself at all, because I'm deeply against nerfing one of the perfect Solo-play frames. I say this solution is "simple" because it's based on something the game already does, when someone AFKs in multiplayer. The game detects that there's been no action/input for s certain length of time and "Hides" the player/frame. (A good feature, if someone suddenly needs to use the bathroom, they don't need to permanently abandon their squad).

Use the AFK-detection that already exists to make the twin stop doing anything when someone AFKs.

[gamingchair1121]

not sure about you but I'm hyped for the wukong nerf

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

with AoE being nerfed, wukong wont be as powerful at all.

cant wait for Umbra to be nerfed too.

 

[X7PLVTINUM]

Just now, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

with AoE being nerfed, wukong wont be as powerful at all.

cant wait for Umbra to be nerfed too.

 

Wait what did Umbra do?