DE really needs to add a tutorial to kuva siphons

[Lutesque]

14 hours ago, FlerpDish said:

the kuva clouds are near invisible in a darker tile set, and in the chaos of fighting it's essentially invisible.

This is basically my experience whenever trying anything new in Warframe... The game thinks barking Vague Orders at you while you're fighting for your life is the optimal time to absorb Information... 🤨

14 hours ago, FlerpDish said:

Any thoughts? Similar experiences? Or were you able to figure out kuva siphons the first time you ever encountered one?

It's not just Kuva Siphons... The whole game is like this and I hate it 😭...

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

This is basically my experience whenever trying anything new in Warframe... The game thinks barking Vague Orders at you while you're fighting for your life is the optimal time to absorb Information... 🤨

It's not just Kuva Siphons... The whole game is like this and I hate it 😭...

But how more clear can siphon orders get? I mean, Lotus distinctly tells you clouds. How many cloud looking things are there in Siphons (or the rest of the game for that matter) that a player can mistake for kuva clouds in a kuva fissure? Not only is the description spot on, but there is also the sound to follow, or if you play without sounds, the dangly tentavaccuum on the harvester itself pointing in the direction of the cloud.

edit: Though this thread kinda proves my point from the other tutorial thread. No matter how well things are explained, people wont make use of them or they will demand even more.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

But how more clear can siphon orders get? I mean, Lotus distinctly tells you clouds. How many cloud looking things are there in Siphons

When everything is moving and Flashing.... Exactly 0... Including the Clouds themselves....

Let me make things clear... This is the experience of playing Warframe in almost every mode:

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

but there is also the sound to follow, or if you play without sounds, the dangly tentavaccuum on the harvester itself pointing in the direction of the cloud

I can hear it... I just can't hear where it's coming from....it's the same story with Disruption Missions or when I'm farming for Hidden Caches....maybe its just my ears but I honestly can hear which direction the sounds are coming from....

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

When everything is moving and Flashing.... Exactly 0... Including the Clouds themselves....

Let me make things clear... This is the experience of playing Warframe in almost every mode:

I can hear it... I just can't hear where it's coming from....it's the same story with Disruption Missions or when I'm farming for Hidden Caches....maybe its just my ears but I honestly can hear which direction the sounds are coming from....

 

I never have issues with flashing things and everything in my graphics are maxed and the only thing turned off is depth of field to remove the "dizzy" effect when taking health damage. And I run with guns that have massive visual noise aswell, on frames that also increase it severely, like Lavos using gas. Only annoying place that adds too much to it is void storm content, but siphons never take place in there.

Just follow the tentacle towards the cloud, that is the simplest solution if you have trouble hearing the location of the cloud.

[Soul-scar]

There is a new and revolutionary website called "YOUTUBE" maybe you should check it out? Without exception, I have never been unable to find a tutorial from one of the 50 or so content creators.

[TeaHands]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But how more clear can siphon orders get? I mean, Lotus distinctly tells you clouds.

After you take out the first braid, before that she's just "Oh no, this is bad." She finds out what to do after you do. I did some siphons this morning and she never said anything useful until I took out the first Cloud. 

[FlerpDish]

2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Literally me for months. Literally the same problem with a lot of bosses. 

At least one person in the squad knows what they are doing and for the rest, it's a blink and you miss it moment where they don't learn anything.

Sargas Ruk amaright? XD

[FlerpDish]

51 minutes ago, Soul-scar said:

There is a new and revolutionary website called "YOUTUBE" maybe you should check it out? Without exception, I have never been unable to find a tutorial from one of the 50 or so content creators.

Youtube or the wiki existing isn't an excuse to not tell the player what to do in game.

[FlerpDish]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But how more clear can siphon orders get? I mean, Lotus distinctly tells you clouds. How many cloud looking things are there in Siphons (or the rest of the game for that matter) that a player can mistake for kuva clouds in a kuva fissure? Not only is the description spot on, but there is also the sound to follow, or if you play without sounds, the dangly tentavaccuum on the harvester itself pointing in the direction of the cloud.

The Lotus doesn't say anything useful before you destroy a cloud. Even then, when a cloud spawns, all she says is "the resonance frequency has changed, you're onto something" which honestly doesn't mean anything.

The clouds themselves, as I have repeated multiple times at this point, aren't exactly the most visible things. Unless you know what you're looking for, there's a good chance you'll miss it, especially if it's a darker or smaller room. Kuva siphon missions are the first time the player encounters a kuva siphon, and the kuva clouds. If they know nothing about how the kuva siphon works, nor have played enough Warframe to know about DE's use of sound in missions, it'll be very hard for them to understand what exactly they should be doing.

[LillyRaccune]

It took me many, many missions until I actually noticed a little polkadot-black-and-red cloud literally "walking" over to the Kuva Siphon machine. I was alone because no one else loaded into the mission and I was lying dead on the ground, so I had a perfect view. Normally there is so much chaos, I was still a baby tenno at the time. I was distracted with a whole new button on my controller, a new squishy person with janky non-fluid movement + a few HP with zero armor, a new punishment system "Transference Feedback", a new bad ray gun, and some players seem to be stuck with the "Belly Button Beam Tenno" and it's recharge time.

It doesn't help that the Lotus' mission directives are faulty. From the perspective of a new player, unless you see what is happening, she doesn't actually announce to you what is going on:

• ON HIT: "Hurry tenno, target the other kuva clouds."
• ON SIPHON: "That machine is using your energy to... (!!!) ...this is bad!"

Finally there is the weirdness of advice I received from other players. One player told me to Void Dash around the room (and bring energy pizza pads) and just keep Dashing around blindly until Lotus tells you it's okay. Some players insisted that Amps and Void Punch don't work on the kuva clouds, only Void Dash and nothing else.

 

...anyway... so having a formal explaination from Teshin or someone (Clem?) would certainly help new players!

 

There was one last complaint I had. The recording of Lotus telling me to target the "clouds" is not announciated properply. Especially with the audio chaos and noise during the mission. Until I saw the real Kuva Cloud, I thought she was telling me to target a kuva CLOUT! I know it doesn't make sense, but that is what I thought I heard. Lotus really likes Clout?

[Soul-scar]

11 minutes ago, FlerpDish said:

Youtube or the wiki existing isn't an excuse to not tell the player what to do in game.

An excuse? Read a tutorial OR go on youtube for a better one.  It took all of ONE mission to figure out kuva syphons when they first released. I would imagine by the time you get to kuva syphons you should have a pretty good idea of how warframe works? Apparently not. I dont disagree necessarily that a tutorial would be a good idea I just think DE investing 5000 man hours to baby step players though every game mode, mission type and story is a huge investment that the vast majority of players wouldn't even use. It would have been nice 8 years ago but at this point in the warframe halflife you may as well use what resources already available.

A long story short? Never going to happen.

[FlerpDish]

17 minutes ago, Soul-scar said:

An excuse? Read a tutorial OR go on youtube for a better one.  It took all of ONE mission to figure out kuva syphons when they first released. I would imagine by the time you get to kuva syphons you should have a pretty good idea of how warframe works? Apparently not. I dont disagree necessarily that a tutorial would be a good idea I just think DE investing 5000 man hours to baby step players though every game mode, mission type and story is a huge investment that the vast majority of players wouldn't even use. It would have been nice 8 years ago but at this point in the warframe halflife you may as well use what resources already available.

A long story short? Never going to happen.

First of all, I am advocating for a better tutorial for the kuva siphon missions specifically. I have not said much about the rest of the game, other that some very general remarks about tutorials.
Second, kuva siphons are unique to kuva siphon missions. Before doing your first kuva siphon mission, you would have never encountered one, nor encountered a similar mechanic to the kuva siphon, so no even if you put hundreds of hours into the game I highly doubt you'd know exactly what to do with the given instructions. Case and point, kuva siphon missions don't show up in the mission tab in your orbiter's computer thingy. So unless you googled how to do the mission beforehand, you would have no knowledge about how the mission works.

Third, reworking the tutorial for a single mission type (not story) won't take a fortune. Hell, even reworking the prompt at the top of your screen, the one that just says "press 5 to enter transference mode", to say something akin to "use your operator to shoot and destroy the kuva clouds being gathered by the kuva siphon" would make the mission much, much simpler to understand.

On a side note, I did my first kuva siphon when I was MR5. So no, I did not have that good of an idea on how Warframe worked. I had also spawned my first lich at MR5, but I heard they changed it recently so that's nice.

Edit: Making this edit because I forgot to respond to the last part of your post, and I feel quite strongly about it.

What I'm getting from what you wrote is that because older players wouldn't benefit from better tutorials in the game, that the game should just not invest in them. Warframe is a pretty old game, yes, but it's not being supported solely by the people who started playing back in 2013. Looking at the steam charts, there are currently 53k players playing right now, while there were only about 15k-20k players in 2013. So no, completely ditching new player experience because "older players wouldn't benefit" is a ridiculous idea. The fact that Warframe redid the intro mission twice might key you into that.

[Alpha_Tango]

Any grinding game like this one only needs repetition itself to get used to like siphoning an essential resource like kuva. Hearing Lotus again and again rambling on and on every single time is enough. That is if asking any squad mate  how it is done, like any practical player can do, will not suffice.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

After you take out the first braid, before that she's just "Oh no, this is bad." She finds out what to do after you do. I did some siphons this morning and she never said anything useful until I took out the first Cloud. 

It was ages ago since I bothered with siphons and floods so you are probably right about that.

1 hour ago, FlerpDish said:

The Lotus doesn't say anything useful before you destroy a cloud. Even then, when a cloud spawns, all she says is "the resonance frequency has changed, you're onto something" which honestly doesn't mean anything.

The clouds themselves, as I have repeated multiple times at this point, aren't exactly the most visible things. Unless you know what you're looking for, there's a good chance you'll miss it, especially if it's a darker or smaller room. Kuva siphon missions are the first time the player encounters a kuva siphon, and the kuva clouds. If they know nothing about how the kuva siphon works, nor have played enough Warframe to know about DE's use of sound in missions, it'll be very hard for them to understand what exactly they should be doing.

So DE wanted players to figure things out. I mean, have people forgotten all helpful things up until the point they unlock Siphons? Like making use of your scanner for a multitude of things, like seeing all types of objectives through all types of wall, including floating queen turds. And at the point people hit up siphons they should know about how DE utilizes sounds and other things, and that not everything is explained into detail since WF isnt a handholding game. People should have realized that after a couple of bosses.

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I mean this all can just be woven into The War Within fight with the Queens. You know where there's no dire consequences in failing. We could of just have a phase were those fat balls of flesh can run around while the Queens drains Kuva. It is up to the tenno to stop the process with Tenshin telling us what to do and how to do it. Kuva Siphon and all.

That'd work too.

[Soul-scar]

3 minutes ago, FlerpDish said:

First of all, I am advocating for a better tutorial for the kuva siphon missions specifically. I have not said much about the rest of the game, other that some very general remarks about tutorials.
Second, kuva siphons are unique to kuva siphon missions. Before doing your first kuva siphon mission, you would have never encountered one, nor encountered a similar mechanic to the kuva siphon, so no even if you put hundreds of hours into the game I highly doubt you'd know exactly what to do with the given instructions. Case and point, kuva siphon missions don't show up in the mission tab in your orbiter's computer thingy. So unless you googled how to do the mission beforehand, you would have no knowledge about how the mission works.

Third, reworking the tutorial for a single mission type (not story) won't take a fortune. Hell, even reworking the prompt at the top of your screen, the one that just says "press 5 to enter transference mode", to say something akin to "use your operator to shoot and destroy the kuva clouds being gathered by the kuva siphon" would make the mission much, much simpler to understand.

On a side note, I did my first kuva siphon when I was MR5. So no, I did not have that good of an idea on how Warframe worked. I had also spawned my first lich at MR5, but I heard they changed it recently so that's nice.

Edit: Making this edit because I forgot to respond to the last part of your post, and I feel quite strongly about it.

What I'm getting from what you wrote is that because older players wouldn't benefit from better tutorials in the game, that the game should just not invest in them. Warframe is a pretty old game, yes, but it's not being supported solely by the people who started playing back in 2013. Looking at the steam charts, there are currently 53k players playing right now, while there were only about 15k-20k players in 2013. So no, completely ditching new player experience because "older players wouldn't benefit" is a ridiculous idea. The fact that Warframe redid the intro mission twice might key you into that.

 

I agree the operator part where you shoot the clouds is very unclear and pretty stupid imo I think I made a post way back when they first introduced them. Imo they should not even spawn until you are MR12 minimum. I actually thought you were talking about kuva survival for some reason probably as I am really hungover :). Yeah the Kuva syphon mission spawns are a convoluted mess. I would change the mechanics as they are stupid then there would be no need to explain it.

Ignore my previous points, I agree they need to be better explained but would prefer totally different mechanics.

[Zimzala]

16 hours ago, FlerpDish said:

So you're saying you have to fail to learn?

Why is this an issue?

Trial and error and experimentation is how humans learn.

Failure is a very effective teaching tool.

Why are so many people afraid to experiment and fail?

YOU may not think failing is a fun way to learn, I love it.

Rogue type games are very popular.

[Redfeather75]

Maybe the first time an account does it the lotus only says 'use your operator to destroy the cloud' when a cloud appears and a red marker shows that is the cloud. But only for the first time.

[FlerpDish]

5 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Why is this an issue?

Trial and error and experimentation is how humans learn.

Failure is a very effective teaching tool.

Why are so many people afraid to experiment and fail?

YOU may not think failing is a fun way to learn, I love it.

Rogue type games are very popular.

Dude, this isn't a rage game. It's not supposed to make you fail repeatedly to learn. People play Warframe to relax and have fun, and being given a mission without clear instructions then failing is not fun.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

59 minutes ago, FlerpDish said:

Dude, this isn't a rage game. It's not supposed to make you fail repeatedly to learn. People play Warframe to relax and have fun, and being given a mission without clear instructions then failing is not fun.

You can't possibly claim to know why 50,000+ individual humans play a game. Nice try though.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

8 hours ago, FlerpDish said:

Youtube or the wiki existing isn't an excuse to not tell the player what to do in game.

It actually is. You can go ahead and search for the AMA DE did on reddit, where they gave an official answer so the Karens can make up their mind whether to start learning how to use their imaginations or take a break from the game lol.

DE says there's more than enough information available for people to figure things out, but they'll still work on things here and there.

We're not in the 90s anymore where people didn't have the internet and had to use paper strategy guides (see? People still had to use external sources to play games) to play games. 

I guarentee you're on your phone for other reasons, so it's an excuse to not be able to spend 3 min and read about something in the games wiki or just ask on QnA chat in-game.

[Hypernaut1]

I think most players prefer just going on YouTube and getting a quick summary of how to do things efficiently anyway. 

It would be a waste of time to create tutorials for everything. 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

22 hours ago, trst said:

Sure Siphons could use a transmission of Lotus specifying to target the clouds to stop it. But that singular detail isn't something that warrants an entire tutorial.

 

Edit: After running them again and sitting around waiting for transmissions the problem is quite clear. The Lotus transmissions telling you to use your Operator to destroy the clouds triggers after destroying the first cloud with your Operator.

It shouldn't be a huge leap to figure out on one's own and you do have Kuva Guardians to fight during it (which you were forced to learn to fight for War Within) so destroying one on accident and getting the transmission is likely. But again this just needs the transmissions cleaned up and not a full on tutorial.

Funny thing about the kuva guardians.  I struggled with that fight and only won doing random nonsense until they died somehow.

So I literally never learned how to fight them. It took me reading the wiki about kuva siphons until I learned you're supposed to use your operator to disarm them and then you can shoot them. 

My first two siphons I literally shot the siphon until something happened. A siphon specific quest would be nice if only to do the mechanics in an easier format solo to learn what to do. 

[FlerpDish]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can't possibly claim to know why 50,000+ individual humans play a game. Nice try though.

 

You also can't claim to know that 50k+ individual humans are perfectly fine with failing over and over again. Nice try though.

[FlerpDish]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It actually is. You can go ahead and search for the AMA DE did on reddit, where they gave an official answer so the Karens can make up their mind whether to start learning how to use their imaginations or take a break from the game lol.

DE says there's more than enough information available for people to figure things out, but they'll still work on things here and there.

We're not in the 90s anymore where people didn't have the internet and had to use paper strategy guides (see? People still had to use external sources to play games) to play games. 

I guarentee you're on your phone for other reasons, so it's an excuse to not be able to spend 3 min and read about something in the games wiki or just ask on QnA chat in-game.

...or they might not want to live in the wiki in case it spoils something for them?

There's a difference between looking up a guide when you have no idea what to do to progress in a game and the game explaining a mission very poorly. It can be a literal 2 minute fix, just adding a more detailed explanation about the mission, and like you've stated in your post, "they'll still work on things here and there". So it's not like they've completely given up on tutorials.

And wow, calling people Karens for wanting more tutorials in a game that's already known for having crappy and confusing explanations in-game...

Yes, we're not in the 90s, and Warframe wasn't made to specifically be super complicated. Having better explanations in game doesn't hurt anybody, and helps the newer players out.

And I'm pretty sure you can't chat in QnA when you're in a mission.