can Khora get some changes w/ her prime?

[sunderthefirmament]

Khora is obviously powerful and useful.  I'm not claiming she isn't.  Hell, she carried me through most of Steel Path when it was new.  And yeah, there are a lot of frames that are in a worse state than her.  But with her prime coming out, wouldn't this be the right time for some changes?  I mean, playing Khora effectively boils down to finding a riven for an unloved melee item, rolling it until you get the right stats, and then pressing 1 on repeat while listening to horrific screeching.  Sure, you may drop down a 4 to aid in farming.  But her optimal gameplay loop is largely just 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, etc.  Same, unchanging animation.  Same, unchanging audio.  That's even less interesting than the 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1 of everyone's favorite infested boy.  Our resident cat lady has worse gameplay than the queen of teabagging, and that's saying something.

 

But my real gripe with Khora is that she's a statstick frame.  Statsticks are dated, clunky, abstruse, and bad.  Statstick abilities lead to some of the most absurd scaling in the game, which makes them difficult to balance, as they can be affected by rivens.  They also encourage you to gimp your loadout to buff 1 boring ability.  DE is desperate to get us to use all of our loadouts, so why are statsticks still a thing?  They should all be removed and replaced with exalted abilities, with a proper balance pass as well.  This takes a lot of work, though, with animations and such, so I'm not going to hold my breath.  But still, it would be nice.

 

My hopes for Khora would be:

• Replace her 1 with an exalted melee whip, along with appropriate buffs and other features as needed, building in synergies with the rest of her kit as her 1 currently has.
• Keep her 2 more or less the same.
• Make Venari's various forms actually worth using.
• Change the augment.  It breaks my heart as I have definitely benefited from abusing Pilfering Strangledome, but farming augments should not be tied to stationary abilities.  It leads to boring gameplay.

[Leqesai]

15 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Replace her 1 with an exalted melee whip, along with appropriate buffs and other features as needed, building in synergies with the rest of her kit as her 1 currently has.

Do you mean add separate modding for her whip rather than using "stat sticks"? If so I can get behind this for all frames that have a "pseudo-exalted" weapon. 

16 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Make Venari's various forms actually worth using.

What do you suggest is changed to make them "actually worth using"?

17 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Change the augment.  It breaks my heart as I have definitely benefited from abusing Pilfering Strangledome, but farming augments should not be tied to stationary abilities.  It leads to boring gameplay.

I don't think I can support this kind of change. Loot frames tend to encourage stationary gameplay. Even with Necro, who has the passive loot generation, players tend to group and play stationarily when they're farming loot. This is typically because it is more efficient to group up and camp-farm instead of spreading out. I think players would have to change their loot-camping mentality. 

[Cerikus]

29 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And yeah, there are a lot of frames that are in a worse state than her. 

I would remove Yareli and Atlas from the list. Atlas is great and Yareli with the new agument is actually great too, but they do have weird playstyle, so I get why people don't like it. Not something that can be simply fixed, by small changes. Only with complete rework of the design. So I wouldn't put those in the same pile as Hydroid and Inaros. And I would add Frost, Caliban and Valkyr to the list.  

31 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Replace her 1 with an exalted melee whip, along with appropriate buffs and other features as needed, building in synergies with the rest of her kit as her 1 currently has.

I agree 100%, BUT the exalted melees must get a buff across the board. Currently they are worse than any melee because they can't use Shadow debt mods. If Khora gets exalted whip without the change, it would actually be a huge nerf.

33 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Make Venari's various forms actually worth using.

13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What do you suggest is changed to make them "actually worth using"?

I would not change the functionality, but simplify the usage, so it's worth interacting with.
Press 3 while aiming at enemies - Venari leaps, does "protect mode" knockdown and starts attacking the enemies.
Press 3 while aiming at ally - Venari leaps and heals the ally.
Press and hold 3 - Venari leaps towards the player and heals them.

That way you get the functionality, but it's more streamlined and actually worth using.
 

[sunderthefirmament]

47 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Do you mean add separate modding for her whip rather than using "stat sticks"? If so I can get behind this for all frames that have a "pseudo-exalted" weapon. 

What do you suggest is changed to make them "actually worth using"?

I don't think I can support this kind of change. Loot frames tend to encourage stationary gameplay. Even with Necro, who has the passive loot generation, players tend to group and play stationarily when they're farming loot. This is typically because it is more efficient to group up and camp-farm instead of spreading out. I think players would have to change their loot-camping mentality. 

I do mean separate modding for her whip.  Ideally, this would eventually happen for all statstick frames.  Gara and Atlas deserve some updates too.

 

I'm not sure how to make Venari worth using, honestly.  It just doesn't do enough, or feel powerful.  I know that its heals had their uses, but then got changed during Scarlet Spear.  With her build as it currently is, you're too busy spamming her 1 to cycle through Venari's various uses and make decisions about them.  This isn't just a Khora issue though.  It's the same problem with Harrow or Garuda.  Why bother taking advantage of the various complexities that your kit offers when spamming a nuke is enough for basically everything in this game?

 

As far as loot camping, it's boring gameplay.  It shouldn't be defended.  I know it's efficient, but think back to the last time you did it, or pay attention to it next time.  What are you really doing?  You're holing up in a hallway and repeating the same few actions, again and again.  You're not taking advantage of the movement system Warframe has to offer.  You're not really making any decisions beyond how much longer you can stomach repeating the same thing again and again.  It's bland.  And I don't think DE loves it, hence their various mini trade bans and such. 

 

If loot augments have to stay, I'd rather have them linked to more mobile and engaging skills.

[sunderthefirmament]

26 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I would remove Yareli and Atlas from the list. Atlas is great and Yareli with the new agument is actually great too, but they do have weird playstyle, so I get why people don't like it. Not something that can be simply fixed, by small changes. Only with complete rework of the design. So I wouldn't put those in the same pile as Hydroid and Inaros. And I would add Frost, Caliban and Valkyr to the list.  

 

Yareli is an indoor K Drive frame, and her augment can be put on literally any frame, so it didn't exactly elevate her.  She's the worst of the worst, and it's been hashed out enough.  If you enjoy being locked out of all player inputs whenever you get nudged while on her K Drive, fine.  Keep playing as her.  And Atlas hits like a truck, but he's got a statstick.  And I've already covered why I think statsticks should change.  His at least is more engaging than Khora's 1.

[Cerikus]

1 minute ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Yareli is an indoor K Drive frame, and her augment can be put on literally any frame, so it didn't exactly elevate her.

Yup, if you don't enjoy kdrives, you cannot enjoy Yareli. That's what I said. And while the augment can be put on other frames, almost no frame can afford its the energy consumption. Only Yareli can use it effectively. It did elevate her a LOT. If you don't enjoy playing on Kdrive, it's totally ok not to enjoy Yareli, but you simply cannot say warframe is bad, because you peronally don't enjoy the gameplay of the warframe. I don't really like how Octavia is played, it's boring and tedious. Is she bad because of that? 

 

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Yup, if you don't enjoy kdrives, you cannot enjoy Yareli. That's what I said. And while the augment can be put on other frames, almost no frame can afford its the energy consumption. Only Yareli can use it effectively. It did elevate her a LOT. If you don't enjoy playing on Kdrive, it's totally ok not to enjoy Yareli, but you simply cannot say warframe is bad, because you peronally don't enjoy the gameplay of the warframe. I don't really like how Octavia is played, it's boring and tedious. Is she bad because of that? 

 

Haha I also despise Octavia!  She was my first pick for a rework for the longest time.  Then DE released Yareli.

 

This might come as a surprise, but I really enjoyed the Waverider quest.  I don't hate K Drives.  They just belong in a different game.  They're only the right choice when you don't have infinite archwing launchers.  They're clunky and slow when compared to archwings.  And they just don't work on most tiles in this game.  If we could seamlessly transition between Merulina and normal mode, even when client, I might get more use out of the ability.  But right now it's just a frustrating, clunky K Drive.

 

And Yareli's K Drive is the worst of all K Drives.  It doesn't take mods.  It's also her lifeline, which is a shame, because it locks her out of melee, primary, and Helminth options.  It's glitchy as hell, and DE doesn't seem to want to do anything about it.  CC effects lock you out of doing anything for far too long.  And even if that weren't an issue, falling into a pit could get you stuck in moonwalk mode for the rest of the mission.  But Yareli's K Drive is how she survives.  It's her tanking ability.  And not satisfied to just be the worst K Drive, Merulina is also the worst tanking ability.  It has no damage absorption period, and the way it interacts with other damage reduction methods (Quick Thinking) is decidedly less than ideal.  And other tanking abilities don't rob you of 2/3 of your arsenal and Helminth options.

 

Yareli's passive is outstanding.  I'm not going to pretend otherwise.  And her 1 is honestly fine.  It could use some QOL, but every frame has an ability that could.  I've already gone over her 2.  Her 3 is bland and functions better on other frames.  It also doesn't work well with her mobile kit, due to its way of stacking procs, which is easiest to do when you can linger near an enemy (aaaaand there goes your passive!).  Finally, it's strangely resistant to mods.  I don't think it would be balanced to have it reach as far as, say, Maim or something.  But why doesn't range affect it?  It feels weird.  

 

And then there's her 4.  Awful.  Sad.  Yeah, it got some number buffs.  But flat number buffs fall off fast.  It's an impotent ability that would be infinitely better if it had a duration during which Yareli could actually, you know, shoot at the enemies in the water spout, perhaps taking advantage of her bonkers passive.

 

Buuuut this is about Khora.  Yareli's probably stuck as she is for the foreseeable future, because there's no money in reworks.  Khora has a shiny prime that should be out in the next few months.  Timing some tweaks and changes alongside that might not be a bad idea.  Or maybe DE is completely satisfied with her 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 gameplay and the way she encourages players to engage with the Kuva slot machine.

[Drasiel]

The part I can't stand the most about khora is having to use a statstick melee with her to be effective. Atlas, Khora, and Gara need to have their own moddable exalteds so melee weapons don't need to be sacrificed on the alter of their abilities to make them decent.

[PublikDomain]

Priming would be the right time to refresh her (or any frame), but it's incredibly unlikely that anything actually changes for her (or any frame). It's just how it is.

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Replace her 1 with an exalted melee whip, along with appropriate buffs and other features as needed, building in synergies with the rest of her kit as her 1 currently has.

I'd much rather they not. Give her a default melee like Garuda if she doesn't have one equipped, but that's it. Whipclaw isn't an melee weapon and it doesn't behave like one, it's a rocket launcher. If I wanted to use a whip I'd be using a whip.

That said, addressing stat-sticks would be cool provided DE can actually address pseudo-exalted abilities properly without decimating them all and turning them into another worthless Iron Staff. I have a post from last year about this and it's still relevant:

On 2021-07-05 at 12:11 PM, PublikDomain said:

"Just make abilities moddable" is the correct implementation, but there are some pitfalls to consider.

• Pseudo-Exalted Abilities are now moddable.

The first thing to consider is that it isn't just stat-sticks, it's also the combo counter stat-sticks give you access to. The Combo Counter's passive 3.75x damage multiplier is the second largest multiplier I make use of, far outpacing even the Riven. The Combo Counter also benefits mods like Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set. If these abilities are just made moddable then we'll still be incentivized to use stat-sticks, but now stat-sticks will only be used to draw out the Combo Counter as much as possible. This would make stat-sticks far worse to use, so the Combo Counter's damage increase needs to be removed from Pseudo-Exalted Abilities and be re-implemented like the combo system Atlas uses.

• The 3.75x damage buff from the Combo Counter is removed for Pseudo-Exalted Abilities.
• Landslide gains an extra level to his existing combo system. 1x → 2x → 4x → 8x.
• Whipclaw and Shattered Lash gain the same combo system as Atlas, but with three levels. 1x → 2x → 4x. They also gain the same energy cost reduction mechanic.
  • It would be nice if these abilities could have new combo animations similar to Atlas' punches.

But there would still be an incentive to stat-stick for Combo Counter mods on Khora and Atlas because of Combo Counter Mods, and the only real solution is to make them not work at all. In return, the base Crit stats should be buffed to make up for it. Here's a starting point:

• Pseudo-Exalted Abilities cannot equip Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds, and do not benefit from the Gladiator set bonus.
• Landslide now has 25%/2.4x Crit stats.
• Whipclaw now has 50%/3.0x Crit stats.

Speaking of Rivens, mine is 1.1 Disposition and provides a ~2.3x overall multiplier to my damage. I think it's fair to expect that any Riven with appropriate stats is a 1.5-3.0x damage multiplier. However, this needs to be compared to the mod that would take its place so the real effect is a little lower. If Rivens are removed then this damage needs to be compensated as an increase to base damage.

• Atlas deals 750 base damage.
• Khora deals 500 base damage.
• Gara deals 1,500 base damage.

This can be scaled as necessary and is the easiest place to adjust these abilities.

But if they don't do these things then we either end up with a gimped and useless Whipclaw or a still-gimped-but-not-quite-as-useless Whipclaw that still requires an even worse stat-stick. Or worse, an Exalted whip you have to pay energy for that's worse than a regular whip.

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Keep her 2 more or less the same.

They could add an energy refund if the target dies before chaining. That'd be nice. Chaining a target only to have it vaporized by another player feels bad, even if the energy doesn't matter.

[sunderthefirmament]

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They could add an energy refund if the target dies before chaining. That'd be nice. Chaining a target only to have it vaporized by another player feels bad, even if the energy doesn't matter.

Yeah, I gotta be honest.  I've almost never used her 2.  It's just never really necessary.  Maybe on Disruption?  Everything else just dies so fast.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

As far as loot camping, it's boring gameplay.  It shouldn't be defended.  I know it's efficient, but think back to the last time you did it, or pay attention to it next time.  What are you really doing?  You're holing up in a hallway and repeating the same few actions, again and again.  You're not taking advantage of the movement system Warframe has to offer.  You're not really making any decisions beyond how much longer you can stomach repeating the same thing again and again.  It's bland.  And I don't think DE loves it, hence their various mini trade bans and such. 

I agree with your sentiment but you're going to have to convince the majority of players that the way they have been farming for years is in need of change. I don't think this is going to be an easy quest considering it is typical that people don't readily accept change.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Yeah, I gotta be honest.  I've almost never used her 2.  It's just never really necessary.  Maybe on Disruption?  Everything else just dies so fast.

It's definitely got its uses, but it's niche. Good for any big heavy target you want to slow down: Demolysts, Acolytes, Bursas, Noxes, Treasurers, Liches/Sisters, etc. It's also useful starting a mission and clumping up a group to raise your Combo Counter on. Outside of that it's not really useful in any regular gameplay since like you say stuff dies so fast. It'd be great if you could control the damage on Whipclaw so you can make use of the synergy, which is why I really want a damage falloff on Whipclaw. Lower damage at the edges means I could trigger Ensnare's propagation without instagibbing my target and ending the effect right away.

[George_PPS]

6 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

My hopes for Khora would be:

• Replace her 1 with an exalted melee whip, along with appropriate buffs and other features as needed, building in synergies with the rest of her kit as her 1 currently has.

I guarantee you this will instantly DESTROY the reason why we love her stat stick build for her 1. Just DON'T.
There are many other frames that will do the same or better than her if that's what you prefer. If she is nerfed this way, it will be another frame sent to frozen freezer in many players' loadouts and never been used again, wasting all the time, Formas, and Plat to get those statsticks for many players to build her up. 

Why don't we give her another exalted weapon in place of 2? 

[NinjaZeku]

I agree that stat sticks should be a thing of the past.

Individual modding was added for other abilities, let the mentioned Melee ones follow suit already,
even if there's no "real" switching-to-a-different-weapon thing going on.

Combine that change with a buff or two to make up for the loss of Riven shenanigans and I think everyone wins
(in the short term it kinda sucks for those who bought / were trying to sell stat stick Rivens, but it's still for the best, ultimately).

[quxier]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

I guarantee you this will instantly DESTROY the reason why we love her stat stick build for her 1. Just DON'T.
There are many other frames that will do the same or better than her if that's what you prefer. If she is nerfed this way, it will be another frame sent to frozen freezer in many players' loadouts and never been used again, wasting all the time, Formas, and Plat to get those statsticks for many players to build her up. 

Why don't we give her another exalted weapon in place of 2? 

Why making "exalted weapon" destroy them?

 

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

I guarantee you this will instantly DESTROY the reason why we love her stat stick build for her 1. Just DON'T.
There are many other frames that will do the same or better than her if that's what you prefer. If she is nerfed this way, it will be another frame sent to frozen freezer in many players' loadouts and never been used again, wasting all the time, Formas, and Plat to get those statsticks for many players to build her up. 

Why don't we give her another exalted weapon in place of 2? 

I can see not trusting DE to get this right. But this is fantasy. We all know Khora is most likely going to stay the same for a very long time. So what’s the harm in imagining a good exalted for her 1?  Something that builds combo quickly, synergizing with her other abilities, before exploding in a mighty heavy attack that clears the room?  I’m thinking closer to Baruuk’s exalted, not Valkyr or Wukong here. 
 

Give it a stance that feels good. Give it good reach. Give it synergies with her 2, 3, and 4.  Even if it’s a power reduction because it no longer benefits from rivens, I would accept that if it was still worth using in Steel Path and was more varied and engaging than the 1 spam we have now with 1 animation and 1 sound effect, endlessly repeating. I get that people love big numbers, but I don’t think this is good or interesting gameplay. 
 

Also her 2 is her Helminth ability. I don’t see DE ever putting an exalted ability on the Helminth. Imagine the lost forma. 

[Merrcenary]

yeah replacing her 1 with an exalted weapon like wukong or garuda have would be nice

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Warframes don't get adjustments/ Power Replacements with Primes unless it was in the works a year + ago and was needed. Khora doesn't fit into either category.

Can she? Like any frame she technically "can"

Will she? 100% No.

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2022-02-21 at 6:42 AM, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Warframes don't get adjustments/ Power Replacements with Primes unless it was in the works a year + ago and was needed. Khora doesn't fit into either category.

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right.  DE hasn't discussed any upcoming reworks or anything of the sort outside of the ~16 augments that are getting touched up.

 

It's a pity.  Even powerhouses like Khora could have better gameplay to them.

[Teridax68]

Khora I think is one of those warframes that's inherently poorly-designed and weak, but propped up by augments so strong they've become necessary. Before her Accumulating Whipclaw and Pilfering Strangledome augments, she was a mediocre frame at best that was still not in a great spot after a post-release rework and some pretty heavy buffs. Now, she's the queen of the Steel Path, only at the cost of an incredibly repetitive playstyle that is reductive not only to her player, but to her entire team as well. It's not interesting to stay in the same spot for hours and funnel enemies into her 4 so she can 111111 ad nauseam. To top it all off, as the OP points out she's heavily Riven-dependent, and stat stick abilities in general are awful design that needs to disappear forever.

With this in mind, I do think Khora could use some significant buffs to her base ability set along with some nerfs or reworks to some of her augments. Loot-enhancing abilities I think need to go away entirely, and every time a loot ability gets good it tends to warp the metagame around it. My suggestions:

• I agree with the OP that Khora should have her own whip. Personally, I think it could perhaps be made to work in the same way as Garuda: give Khora her Whipclaw, which she can use if not wielding a melee weapon (and, maybe, give this and Garuda's talons a toggle if the player wants to equip neither). Garuda's 1 should then scale with this Whipclaw rather than any other melee weapon.
  • As a corollary to this, apply this same treatment or something similar to all frames that currently have stat stick abilities. Ash should have his own assassin weapons that factor into Blade Storm (and possibly Shuriken), Atlas should have his own fists, and Gara should have her own glass arm-blade.
• I also completely agree with the OP that Venari's stances ought to be made properly useful. Either the stances ought to have a much greater impact on what Venari does, or the ability ought to get reworked to a single active to let Venari do something important.
• Also agreed with the OP that Pilfering Strangledome needs to go, along with other loot-enhancing augments and abilities. Personally, I think an augment that would allow the Strangledome to be moved more easily or provide protection within could work with Khora's ability set.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

On 2022-02-21 at 7:42 AM, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Warframes don't get adjustments/ Power Replacements with Primes unless it was in the works a year + ago and was needed. Khora doesn't fit into either category.

Can she? Like any frame she technically "can"

Will she? 100% No.

DE did stop Limbo's Stasis from stopping ally bullets in return for nerfing its duration by half, completely out of the wild with no prior mentions of any Limbo rework when his Prime released. So power adjustment with Prime release has happened before, but it's more that Limbo is a special case like he usually is. Harrow getting an additional passive and some range tweaks to his 1 with Prime release is a bit minor but still counts I think.

Nowhere near the scope of rework OP is suggesting (which I can all agree with btw, stat stick abilities should never have been a thing) but I think something like Venari Prime adjustments are in the realm of possibility. 

[sunderthefirmament]

So apparently we're getting Garuda Prime before Khora Prime, which... is completely fine by me, honestly.  Garuda is amazing, and I'm cautiously optimistic about the changes to her kit (I will admit never really loving her passive before, though I know it's very strong).

 

But this is out of order, which is also completely fine.  DE has done this in the past, I believe.  But, speaking of cautious optimism, does anyone suppose this Khora Prime delay might then coincide with some changes for her kit?  My only other theory is that it's money.  Khora is much more popular than Garuda, and the summer brings Tennocon.